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Stack & Tilt (merged)


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#61 Deadpool_25

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:30 AM

View Post34golf, on 31 August 2010 - 02:17 AM, said:

I think i read somewhere Mike Bennett said that they came up with this swing to hit the ball the furthest and Straightest. What if your goal was to just hit the ball the straightest? I dont mean the ballflight being straight but i mean consistently hitting the ball to your target and didnt care much about distance.

Just to clarify, they don't say that. They say you will NOT hit it the furthest or the straightest, but will it the ball with a very good combination of far and straight.

Like Logan said, you're looking at a putting stroke. Generally, the longer the ball goes the further off line...just geometry. A shot 1 degree off line isn't very far off at 10 feet, but much further off at 300 yards.


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#62 frank gasaway

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:43 AM

View Postmikeyshine, on 09 September 2010 - 09:35 AM, said:

A few questions:

What is the typical miss with the Stack & Tilt model?

What do the other patterns that Plummer & Bennett use look like? Any video?

The model that Nick Clearwater shows on his youtube channel has the hands a little bit forward at address(impact fix). Is it ok to setup using standard address with lower hands (I guess with more forward flexion)?

Thanks

Typical miss - depends on the player . I see alot of people posting their miss is a push. My miss is a push which is why I love the pattern. Years of hitting over draws and pull hooks I will take the hanging curve ball any day.  

other patterns - 3 yard draw is the Model and I know we don't want you cutting across the ball . There are a ton of Mike Bennet vids on YOUTUBE at their schools , but be careful what you are watching Mike moves the ball around (20 30 yd push draws 5 yrd push draws ect) it's hard to judge his swings because of this. He may have the ball back 3 to 4 balls with a driver to hit pushes.

Played with Grant a few weeks ago and he can hit all patterns and he hits them all great. His CF cut makes me sick(I want that shot). I wished I  had video. Dana may have some footage he can share. I will ask Grant to put some up on his YOUTUBE page.

Yes you can set up with low hands ..... You just need to monitor it because it is more CP. I have long arms like Jodie Mudd so my hands look low.

Edited by frank gasaway, 09 September 2010 - 11:45 AM.


#63 yedi015

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 02:48 PM

I tried to instill The S&T today and had a real big problem with pulling the ball and pull hooking te ball. What could this be from. I thought the normal miss with this swing is a push. I couldn't hit anything right of the target. I also still hit my drive with a high fade. did however hit more solid than I have been but accuracy was terrible.
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#64 mvmac

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 05:34 PM

View Postyedi015, on 09 September 2010 - 02:48 PM, said:

I tried to instill The S&T today and had a real big problem with pulling the ball and pull hooking te ball. What could this be from. I thought the normal miss with this swing is a push. I couldn't hit anything right of the target. I also still hit my drive with a high fade. did however hit more solid than I have been but accuracy was terrible.

Without seeing a video I would make sure of the following
- Hands are deep enough on the back swing with side tilt/shoulders turning on a tilted angle
- Hips pushing forward on down swing while head stays centered
- Rear leg staying straight on down swing to followthrough

#65 provx

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 05:56 PM

discussing the typical miss being a push. in a scenario where you are on the tee with trouble right and can not afford to push it while also needing to hit the ball pretty solidly and far so a pull cut would be out of the question. what would be the steps to ensure getting the ball to start at or left or where you need it still hitting the push draw. seems like the obvious answer is aiming farther left, but this makes a lot of people push the ball even more.


#66 frank gasaway

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:09 PM

View Postprovx, on 09 September 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

discussing the typical miss being a push. in a scenario where you are on the tee with trouble right and can not afford to push it while also needing to hit the ball pretty solidly and far so a pull cut would be out of the question. what would be the steps to ensure getting the ball to start at or left or where you need it still hitting the push draw. seems like the obvious answer is aiming farther left, but this makes a lot of people push the ball even more.


This is hard because it could be handled many ways.  The face needs to be more closed to the path. Stronger attachment (grip) or close the clubface at address.

#67 gmbtempe

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:30 PM

Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?

#68 logan91201

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:44 PM

View Postfrank gasaway, on 09 September 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

View Postprovx, on 09 September 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

discussing the typical miss being a push. in a scenario where you are on the tee with trouble right and can not afford to push it while also needing to hit the ball pretty solidly and far so a pull cut would be out of the question. what would be the steps to ensure getting the ball to start at or left or where you need it still hitting the push draw. seems like the obvious answer is aiming farther left, but this makes a lot of people push the ball even more.


This is hard because it could be handled many ways.  The face needs to be more closed to the path. Stronger attachment (grip) or close the clubface at address.


I would square my face more at address.  Basically shifting the cone to the left.  Would also consider putting the ball more forward to neutralize some of the draw.

#69 logan91201

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:48 PM

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?


Depends on the swing, but from what I remember about yours, I would increase my side tilt from 1-4 so my spine could be more neutral at the top (yours used to tilt to the right which causes more in to out path) and I could load #4 more (higher longer p4).  If that didn't do it by itself, I would then turn faster in relation to how you release 1 & 4 on the way down.  Doing both of those should get you swinging straighter into the ball in no time.

#70 gmbtempe

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:07 PM

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?


Depends on the swing, but from what I remember about yours, I would increase my side tilt from 1-4 so my spine could be more neutral at the top (yours used to tilt to the right which causes more in to out path) and I could load #4 more (higher longer p4).  If that didn't do it by itself, I would then turn faster in relation to how you release 1 & 4 on the way down.  Doing both of those should get you swinging straighter into the ball in no time.

Thanks, I understand most of that.  I am working with Dan in a month so I am just trying to get closer in the mean time.

Turning faster, I assume this is more of a core rotation of the hips rather than a throw of the shoulders?


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#71 frank gasaway

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:08 PM

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

View Postfrank gasaway, on 09 September 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

View Postprovx, on 09 September 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

discussing the typical miss being a push. in a scenario where you are on the tee with trouble right and can not afford to push it while also needing to hit the ball pretty solidly and far so a pull cut would be out of the question. what would be the steps to ensure getting the ball to start at or left or where you need it still hitting the push draw. seems like the obvious answer is aiming farther left, but this makes a lot of people push the ball even more.


This is hard because it could be handled many ways.  The face needs to be more closed to the path. Stronger attachment (grip) or close the clubface at address.


I would square my face more at address.  Basically shifting the cone to the left.  Would also consider putting the ball more forward to neutralize some of the draw.


Provx ,


What Logan just posted is why I love the model , system or method we use. Andy and Nick had me do the same thing to one of their students that was struggling with the same thing.

#72 logan91201

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:23 PM

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?


Depends on the swing, but from what I remember about yours, I would increase my side tilt from 1-4 so my spine could be more neutral at the top (yours used to tilt to the right which causes more in to out path) and I could load #4 more (higher longer p4).  If that didn't do it by itself, I would then turn faster in relation to how you release 1 & 4 on the way down.  Doing both of those should get you swinging straighter into the ball in no time.

Thanks, I understand most of that.  I am working with Dan in a month so I am just trying to get closer in the mean time.

Turning faster, I assume this is more of a core rotation of the hips rather than a throw of the shoulders?

How can you expect to get the left arm more out at P5 without turning the shoulders faster in relation to how you release #4? While yes you will need to turn the hips to accomplish this, I most certainly mean shoulders.

#73 gmbtempe

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:48 PM

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?


Depends on the swing, but from what I remember about yours, I would increase my side tilt from 1-4 so my spine could be more neutral at the top (yours used to tilt to the right which causes more in to out path) and I could load #4 more (higher longer p4).  If that didn't do it by itself, I would then turn faster in relation to how you release 1 & 4 on the way down.  Doing both of those should get you swinging straighter into the ball in no time.

Thanks, I understand most of that.  I am working with Dan in a month so I am just trying to get closer in the mean time.

Turning faster, I assume this is more of a core rotation of the hips rather than a throw of the shoulders?

How can you expect to get the left arm more out at P5 without turning the shoulders faster in relation to how you release #4? While yes you will need to turn the hips to accomplish this, I most certainly mean shoulders.


thanks,

I have very poor hip motion, with any pattern, my "hula hula" flexibility is non existent.  What I am finding is with more weight on the left foot at the top and a very centered pivot its reducing the amount of hip turn on the downswing, slowing the shoulders and the affect is I am having which is leaving the path out to the right.  This is my opinion based on my knowledge of the golf swing.  I have found no drills or any mechanical move to resolve this.

#74 logan91201

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:04 PM

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?


Depends on the swing, but from what I remember about yours, I would increase my side tilt from 1-4 so my spine could be more neutral at the top (yours used to tilt to the right which causes more in to out path) and I could load #4 more (higher longer p4).  If that didn't do it by itself, I would then turn faster in relation to how you release 1 & 4 on the way down.  Doing both of those should get you swinging straighter into the ball in no time.

Thanks, I understand most of that.  I am working with Dan in a month so I am just trying to get closer in the mean time.

Turning faster, I assume this is more of a core rotation of the hips rather than a throw of the shoulders?

How can you expect to get the left arm more out at P5 without turning the shoulders faster in relation to how you release #4? While yes you will need to turn the hips to accomplish this, I most certainly mean shoulders.


thanks,

I have very poor hip motion, with any pattern, my "hula hula" flexibility is non existent.  What I am finding is with more weight on the left foot at the top and a very centered pivot its reducing the amount of hip turn on the downswing, slowing the shoulders and the affect is I am having which is leaving the path out to the right.  This is my opinion based on my knowledge of the golf swing.  I have found no drills or any mechanical move to resolve this.


I don't see the correlation to be honest, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Do your hips turn better when you have more weight on your right foot at P4?  If so do you have any logical reason as to why that would be?

#75 logan91201

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:10 PM

[quote name='logan91201' timestamp='1284087890' post='2688622']
[quote name='gmbtempe' timestamp='1284086903' post='2688595']
[quote name='logan91201' timestamp='1284085418' post='2688540']
[quote name='gmbtempe' timestamp='1284084456' post='2688492']
[quote name='logan91201' timestamp='1284083315' post='2688453']
[quote name='gmbtempe' timestamp='1284082255' post='2688409']
Very frustrated with this pattern right now, path is way out to the right.  Just way to inconsistent.

How do you get your left arm more out at P5?
[/quote]


Depends on the swing, but from what I remember about yours, I would increase my side tilt from 1-4 so my spine could be more neutral at the top (yours used to tilt to the right which causes more in to out path) and I could load #4 more (higher longer p4).  If that didn't do it by itself, I would then turn faster in relation to how you release 1 & 4 on the way down.  Doing both of those should get you swinging straighter into the ball in no time.
[/quote]

Thanks, I understand most of that.  I am working with Dan in a month so I am just trying to get closer in the mean time.

Turning faster, I assume this is more of a core rotation of the hips rather than a throw of the shoulders?
[/quote]

How can you expect to get the left arm more out at P5 without turning the shoulders faster in relation to how you release #4? While yes you will need to turn the hips to accomplish this, I most certainly mean shoulders.
[/quote]


thanks,

I have very poor hip motion, with any pattern, my "hula hula" flexibility is non existent.  What I am finding is with more weight on the left foot at the top and a very centered pivot its reducing the amount of hip turn on the downswing, slowing the shoulders and the affect is I am having which is leaving the path out to the right.  This is my opinion based on my knowledge of the golf swing.  I have found no drills or any mechanical move to resolve this.
[/quote]


I don't see the correlation to be honest, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Do your hips turn better when you have more weight on your right foot at P4?  If so do you have any logical reason as to why that would be?
[/quote]

For the record, I'm not really concerned where your weight is.  Honestly with your issues I wouldn't mind seeing it more neutral until you learned to side tilt and turn properly.  It will at least alleviate some of that over draw.  I'm more concerned with your spine working properly in the backswing (tilting more left).  One can side tilt excessively and still have their weight on the right foot.  See where I'm going with this?


#76 gmbtempe

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:19 PM

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:



I don't see the correlation to be honest, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Do your hips turn better when you have more weight on your right foot at P4?  If so do you have any logical reason as to why that would be?

Yes, I believe so.  I have no way to measure it but I can get the path more left and the arm more "out".  Why is tough, I assume with limited flexibility the more weight you get on your left leg and hip at P four the harder it is to pull the left hip leftward and back, also at the same time moving upward (not sure what this is called).  

The best way I can come up with is to try to squeeze from inside of my thighs and produce as much rotational force as possible rather than any type of turn of the hips by pulling them back and leftward.

I don't think this is a SnT issue really but I do think its one of the issues that the pattern might have with less flexible players.

#77 MacBooky

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 01:38 AM

View Postgmbtempe, on 09 September 2010 - 10:19 PM, said:

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:

I don't see the correlation to be honest, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Do your hips turn better when you have more weight on your right foot at P4?  If so do you have any logical reason as to why that would be?

Yes, I believe so.  I have no way to measure it but I can get the path more left and the arm more "out".  Why is tough, I assume with limited flexibility the more weight you get on your left leg and hip at P four the harder it is to pull the left hip leftward and back, also at the same time moving upward (not sure what this is called).  

The best way I can come up with is to try to squeeze from inside of my thighs and produce as much rotational force as possible rather than any type of turn of the hips by pulling them back and leftward.

I don't think this is a SnT issue really but I do think its one of the issues that the pattern might have with less flexible players.

For starters you can try to (standing in front of a mirror)

- stand erect
- push you hips linear left as far as you can, whilst keeping upper-center in place
- you should be able to at least get a 20 degree tilt in you spine, preferably more

then

- stand erect, left foot flared
- weight 70% left
- push hips linear until hipjoint is past left ankle
- turn hips through

#78 provx

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 09:46 AM

View Postlogan91201, on 09 September 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

View Postfrank gasaway, on 09 September 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

View Postprovx, on 09 September 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

discussing the typical miss being a push. in a scenario where you are on the tee with trouble right and can not afford to push it while also needing to hit the ball pretty solidly and far so a pull cut would be out of the question. what would be the steps to ensure getting the ball to start at or left or where you need it still hitting the push draw. seems like the obvious answer is aiming farther left, but this makes a lot of people push the ball even more.
This is hard because it could be handled many ways.  The face needs to be more closed to the path. Stronger attachment (grip) or close the clubface at address.
I would square my face more at address.  Basically shifting the cone to the left.  Would also consider putting the ball more forward to neutralize some of the draw.

ahh, playing the ball more forward but still making sure you are swinging out long enough does make a lot of sense.

#79 Showtime

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 08:44 PM

i switched 2 months ago and my ball striking has never been better.  weight forward, shoulder down, hands inside right arm connected and fire away....easy to repeat...
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#80 dana dahlquist

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 11:50 PM

Some very good CF high shots, look up Norman on youtube with a driver. He does good stuff for higher ball flights.


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#81 eightiron

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 05:16 PM

View Postdana dahlquist, on 30 August 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

We are starting a sub forum for all stack and tilt threads, if you have questions about this please let us know.


Hey Dana,
Just a few serious questions for once lol. Firstly some people believe that it takes great athleticism to perform the body motions in s/ t and morad ( i.e flex , extend and stand up ) and say waist bend is hard to maintain from lack of flexibility. Do you think this is true or woud you say other factors prevent maintaining torso bend.
Personally I would think that the motion of practicing the pivot would actually be good for increasing flexibilty ( like in hamstrings ) and other factors such as arm position and leftwrist top end position would be influential in torso inclination

#82 chris_golf

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:21 PM

Since the Stack and Tilt pinned thread is locked... [Edit: fixed that]

P+B talk a lot about turning the shoulders in a circle...

MikeBennetP4.jpg MikeBennetP8.jpg
CharlieWiP4.jpg CharlieWiP8.jpg
GrantWaiteP4.jpg GrantWaiteP9.jpg

What would be the model?
Maybe they are not hitting the same club and are not exactly at the same position, but Charlie Wi has 20 degree difference and
Grant Waite almost turns in a circle...

Chris

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#83 dana dahlquist

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 05:39 PM

Good one,
Mike Bennett, Charlie are on higher camera angles than Grant. But steeper shoulders at impact would be a touch more pushy draw Cf

#84 dietz

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:13 PM

Dana,

Are there any angle to stay within, say, a camera angle waist height, the shoulders would be between 30 & 36, and impact would be more at 18 to 24. Just numbers that I'm throwing out, not really sure ? And do you vary the shoulders angle based on being more or less CP or CF for a particular shot ?

#85 ragin cajun

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:25 PM

I've decided to make the switch to S&T.  I've began with a two-plane swing, then moved to the one-plane, and now looking at S&T as the final swing for the rest of my golfing life.  Like many taking this swing on, I'm in need of some explanation on weight location at  various points in the swing.  Would it be something like this or am I completely wrong?

(left side / right side, for right handed player)

P1:  55/45
P2:  55/45
P3:  55/45
P4:  55/45
P5:  70/30
P6:  90/10
P7:  100/0
P8:  100/0
P9:  100/0

I also want to thank each and everyone of you for taking the time out of your busy days and lives to help people you've never met get better at the game.  Thank you!


#86 frank gasaway

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:04 AM

View Postragin cajun, on 13 September 2010 - 10:25 PM, said:

I've decided to make the switch to S&T.  I've began with a two-plane swing, then moved to the one-plane, and now looking at S&T as the final swing for the rest of my golfing life.  Like many taking this swing on, I'm in need of some explanation on weight location at  various points in the swing.  Would it be something like this or am I completely wrong?

(left side / right side, for right handed player)

P1:  55/45
P2:  55/45
P3:  55/45
P4:  55/45
P5:  70/30
P6:  90/10
P7:  100/0
P8:  100/0
P9:  100/0

I also want to thank each and everyone of you for taking the time out of your busy days and lives to help people you've never met get better at the game.  Thank you!


Different for different people but I would move more in increments p1 55 p2 60 p3 70 and so on . You just don't want big shifts at once.

#87 kevcarter

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:34 AM

View Postfrank gasaway, on 14 September 2010 - 06:04 AM, said:

Different for different people but I would move more in increments p1 55 p2 60 p3 70 and so on . You just don't want big shifts at once.

One thing I really liked in the DVD, and it struck me right away, was the use of the term "incrementally." Never a NOW moment in the swing.

It's finally really hit me what a SYSTEM S&T is, not just a pattern. People can travel and be taught EXACTLY the same principles from any S&T teacher they encounter. This type of consistency is unprecedented in teaching IMHO.

Great answer Frank!

Kevin
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#88 varsityhacker

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:57 AM

:drinks: to all of the knowledgeable people like Logan, Dan and Frank helping people out with their questions.

#89 counselor

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:07 PM

I have been experimenting with a S&T/ Foley Golf Channel videos swing- weight forward, shoulder down, etc.  I was striking the ball very crisply and was very accurate.  I struck my wedges through 8 iron well, and had good impact with my hybrids and fw from the fairway.  The one problem that I seemed to have was with woods or hybrids off the tee.  I seemed to be moving my head forward and popping these up.

        Recently, I began struggling with my 6 and 7 iron.  I find myself lunging at the ball and I of course start shanking.  It almost always starts with the 6 or 7 iron, and then spreads to the other clubs.  Unlike many, I experience the shanks less with the wedges than with the mid irons.  I can feel that I am moving towards the ball or lunging.

        Can one get the club too far behind them with S&T?  I am thinking that it may be a posture/stance problem.  Does the Hogan sit on a stool posture thought work with S&T?  Thanks.

#90 iteachgolf

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:21 PM

Can get the club too far behind you. More likely hips aren't linear enough or your head is too far forward in the backswing. Guessing it's nit linear enough though


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