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Hogan's imagery of elbow's close together...


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#1 chris_golf

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 05:15 PM

I see a lot of people believing that they have to keep the elbows together... In my understanding I allways believed he was meaning to keep the pressure under your armpits alive... realdeall.jpg Even on the picture on the right you can see he  pressures the upper arms to the the ripcage... The most evidence what he really meant are in this video: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_AmPuzgBXEM&hl=de_DE&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_AmPuzgBXEM&hl=de_DE&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object> This remembers me allways to a figure iceskater - the more the arms are closer to the body - the faster you spin or turn.... What do you think....Chris

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#2 grahler

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 02:50 AM

His prescribed position of the elbows-right elbow facing hip is great for getting a good function from right arm-anti stuck mechanism(also path consistency aid frozen right elbow helps consistency of path).  Left elbow facing hip anti hook clubface control aid.  All in all helps sequence in general for keeping hands in synch with body.
I know a lot of folks say not so but IMO all Hogan did on BS was turn and lift-no conscious tricky manipulations IMO his genius lies in the fact he eliminated so many unneeded manipulations.
Keeping arm movement so simple allowed him to utilize his incredibly dynamic pivot.
Problem with duplicating Hogan's action is in duplicating the pivot especially with his widestance.  His pivot is as difficult to duplicate as his armswing is (in relative terms) easy to duplicate.




#3 Matt1960

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 02:56 AM

My belief is that if the elbows are kept reasonably the same distance apart through the swing, then it minimises the amount of independant lateral arm action, which then forces the core to be the main driver of the swing.
In this respect, I would agree with Hogans thoughts.
However binding them together like the picture in 5L looks too rigid for my liking, and could inhibit the essential vertical motion of the arms, and possibly the wrist action too.

With regard to the arms close to the body, I also feel that not letting the arms extend away from the body too soon after impact does retain the rotational speed of the body. Or rather, releasing the arms away from the body too soon after impact will actually slow the rotation of the body.


On a note about feel v real, we have to be careful, when we read about what others feel as a motion, and I always take this with a 'pinch of salt'. I think we are better off making our own conclusions about the actual motion.

#4 LYG

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 09:49 AM

Here's my take on Hogan's elbow-close-to-sides teaching:

1. For the better plater

Absolutely works. (But be cautious not to get too flat and too mechanical)

2. For the new player or poor golfer (whose elbows fly way way askew...and/or break the plane)

It works -- helps get  more "connected," compact and effective swing.

In may ways, his book -- in my opinion -- was aimed at getting the poor player to have solid FUNDAMENTALS.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Lawson

(PS: videos of Hogan in his 50's show his elbows were loose, not tight to his sides-- at address and waggle -- then he got connected as he started back)

#5 SwingNV

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:43 AM

This was a BIG problem in my swing for a long time.  I think it has a lot to do with body type and playing level.

I'm very thin-chested with thin arms so I can literally touch my forearms together at address with ease and no tension added.  So when I first took up golf seriously, I followed Hogan's advice and kept my elbows very close together.  I think this is great for a beginner as has been stated becuase it conects your arms to your hip rotation and keeps you from getting a flying right elbow.  Great for beginners.

Unfortunately I feel this position doesn't create the dynamic live tension you need in your "elbow pits" (supinator muscles).  As I delved deeper in 5 Lessons and watched Hogan vids, I noticed that Hogan never had his elbow pits facing the sky like he recomended.  They seemed to point much more at each other.

After I changed to this position, the power increase was tremendous.  I call the sensation I feel "maxing out my supinators."

  The feeling I establish at address is like if I were arm wrestling someone much stronger than I am.  Except in this match, the game is played with both arms full extended and parallel to the floor.  The point is to try and rotate the opponents arm so that the back of his hand lay on the table.  If I start out with my elbows facing the sky my opponent will win immediately as I have no resistance.  Instead I will rotate my upper arms down toward the table while trying to rotate my wrists away.  When my palms face each other I have reached maximum resistance.  Any force from my strong opponent will try and rotate my arm at the shoulder joint which activates my lat muscles in my back- thus trying to squeeze my upper arms very tightly against my chest.  Now I'm usuing the biggest muscles I have to keep from losing this battle.

In the full golf swing, I try to never lose this battle, yet I always do.  Hopefully I'm losing at the right time! :beruo:


#6 farmer

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 05:21 PM

I've noticed in real time movies that he did not point his "pits" to the sky.  Maybe there was some difference in what he felt and what he did.

#7 Dariusz J.

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 06:09 AM

View Postfarmer, on 09 August 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

I've noticed in real time movies that he did not point his "pits" to the sky.  Maybe there was some difference in what he felt and what he did.

Of course. I believe that the difference between feel and physical reality is sometimes huge. Hogan was no exception. He felt that they pointed to the sky because the positions of the elbow joints in relation to wrist bones were turned outside (supinated).
Same with famous elastic band visualization. Hogan did not feel the linear CoG slide in the hips area, he felt only the rotation there.

Cheers

#8 Mike_C

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:29 AM

To be honest, this ONE thing in Hogan's book, goof me up for years.  It if physically impossible for me to make much of a backswing with my left arm in the posisition shown in the book. Right arm? Sure, it points at the hip. But the only way I can turn with my left elbow pointing inward is I  must rotate  my left arm from the shoulder socket, which creates a big inside move on the way back.  

At impact, the left arm has the elbow pointing basically down the line, not at your hip.  Some old timer gave me this tip years ago, and  this is the position I decided to start with, as that is where I wanted to get back to.  From there, I could take the club straight back and not way inside with a rotating arm...this one change improved my game more than anything ever did.  Post impact, it rotates left, but at impact, its going down the line....

Here is Hogan at impact:

Posted Image

Now look at this sequence, Hogan has his left arm with the elbow pointing down the line just at takeaway, and at impact:

Posted Image

A young Nicklaus at impact, this is what I strive for, if my body would allow:

Posted Image

setup:

Posted Image

Old Jack, notice his left arm/elbow still in the same spot at address:
Posted Image

Here is Tiger at impact:

Posted Image

Posted Image


Annika:

Posted Image

Posted Image


Young and old Watson:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Mike_C, 27 April 2011 - 12:32 PM.

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#9 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 11:29 AM

View PostDariusz J., on 10 August 2010 - 06:09 AM, said:

View Postfarmer, on 09 August 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

I've noticed in real time movies that he did not point his "pits" to the sky.  Maybe there was some difference in what he felt and what he did.

Of course. I believe that the difference between feel and physical reality is sometimes huge. Hogan was no exception. He felt that they pointed to the sky because the positions of the elbow joints in relation to wrist bones were turned outside (supinated).
Same with famous elastic band visualization. Hogan did not feel the linear CoG slide in the hips area, he felt only the rotation there.

Cheers

his elbow is under his nose in plain view, he knew where it was pointing at set up.

#10 Dariusz J.

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 12:56 PM

View PostJOEGOLFWRX, on 10 August 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

his elbow is under his nose in plain view, he knew where it was pointing at set up.

Well, the truth is that in reality he never setup his elbows such extreme the way Ravielli drew in the book.

Cheers


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#11 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 08:55 PM

yeah, but that doesn't mean you can extend the feel isn't real explanation to a static position in plain sight, ...it's way more logical to assume he had them where he wanted them, ..exactly, ...and he had another ideal for the masses. ..what with him being a genius and all ...lol.

#12 dream_stryker

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:54 PM

View PostJOEGOLFWRX, on 10 August 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

yeah, but that doesn't mean you can extend the feel isn't real explanation to a static position in plain sight, ...it's way more logical to assume he had them where he wanted them, ..exactly, ...and he had another ideal for the masses. ..what with him being a genius and all ...lol.

Well said JOE..... 5L is NOT Hogan's personal swing.  Some people need to repeat that 100 times and get back to digging up some turf.  That's the ONLY place the answers one seeks are.  Golf books are only brain storming material to give you some leads to start investigating.   The concepts still have to be calibrated to your personal bio-mechanical profile or even discarded because of it.  Hogan left a few easter eggs in 5 L...but you have to look carefully to find them and they aren't discussed at any length at all.  In my opinion...they are only pieces anyway so they aren't much good without additional info to build a swing around them.

#13 brockljo

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 04:14 AM

View Postdream_stryker, on 10 August 2010 - 09:54 PM, said:

View PostJOEGOLFWRX, on 10 August 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

yeah, but that doesn't mean you can extend the feel isn't real explanation to a static position in plain sight, ...it's way more logical to assume he had them where he wanted them, ..exactly, ...and he had another ideal for the masses. ..what with him being a genius and all ...lol.

Well said JOE..... 5L is NOT Hogan's personal swing.  Some people need to repeat that 100 times and get back to digging up some turf.  That's the ONLY place the answers one seeks are.  Golf books are only brain storming material to give you some leads to start investigating.   The concepts still have to be calibrated to your personal bio-mechanical profile or even discarded because of it.  Hogan left a few easter eggs in 5 L...but you have to look carefully to find them and they aren't discussed at any length at all.  In my opinion...they are only pieces anyway so they aren't much good without additional info to build a swing around them.


indeed - you don't learn much about water by only studying hydrogen and oxygen

#14 JD3

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:47 AM

He absolutely did. Can be seen working on it throughout his career.  I know it's awkward at first, but commit to it and several things will fall into place.  

Harmon takes a lot of heat around here ... deservedly so at times ... but he did pickup one essential piece from his father having Hogan around the house.

Love this picture ....
Posted Image

Edited by JD3, 18 August 2010 - 12:52 AM.


#15 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:54 AM

the people who give butch heat haven't got one clue what it takes to be number one at anything, ...if butch taught the new laws, they'd be common knowledge, and he'd still be number one ...rofl.


#16 jak_bot

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:49 PM

View PostJOEGOLFWRX, on 18 August 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

the people who give butch heat haven't got one clue what it takes to be number one at anything, ...if butch taught the new laws, they'd be common knowledge, and he'd still be number one ...rofl.

New laws as in Ball flight laws?

#17 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 05:42 PM

sorry, yeah, ...some people were calling for his head on a plate because he was no1 yet presented incorrect information, ...its not like the 2 things are related.

butch is no1 because he is the best at the game of being no1.

Edited by JOEGOLFWRX, 18 August 2010 - 05:44 PM.


#18 69 another time

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 04:28 PM

Regarding the elbow creases facing the sky. Many don`t know that some peoples forearms naturally rotate clockwise in the first part of the takeaway, some don`t. You can place your left elbow wherever you wish without changing you grip, Hogans elbow creases facing the sky allows for a forearm naturally rotating. Most today set up with the left elbow pointing to the target, more or less, no need for rotation in this setup. Hogan used this example as a starting point IMO

#19 AlexCzervic

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 09:46 AM

Just try to keep your elbows close with some pressure(chest), no extremes or contortionist moves.  If you start your left elbow pointing at hip, your whole left arm should turn(cw) in the lower part of your BS.  You can do it other ways, but remember Hogan was trying to teach everyone.

#20 martinez

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 07:58 AM

View PostAlexCzervic, on 12 September 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

Just try to keep your elbows close with some pressure(chest), no extremes or contortionist moves.  If you start your left elbow pointing at hip, your whole left arm should turn(cw) in the lower part of your BS.  You can do it other ways, but remember Hogan was trying to teach everyone.
I can't reconcile any of what you said with footage of Hogan......he never said keep the elbows close for one thing and any move (cw) with the left arm would have been completely out of character with his swing.




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#21 TheBoomer

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:07 AM

View PostJD3, on 18 August 2010 - 12:47 AM, said:

He absolutely did. Can be seen working on it throughout his career.  I know it's awkward at first, but commit to it and several things will fall into place.  

Harmon takes a lot of heat around here ... deservedly so at times ... but he did pickup one essential piece from his father having Hogan around the house.

Love this picture ....
Posted Image


That is a great picture.

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#22 SwingNV

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:08 AM

View Postmartinez, on 21 September 2010 - 07:58 AM, said:

View PostAlexCzervic, on 12 September 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

Just try to keep your elbows close with some pressure(chest), no extremes or contortionist moves.  If you start your left elbow pointing at hip, your whole left arm should turn(cw) in the lower part of your BS.  You can do it other ways, but remember Hogan was trying to teach everyone.
I can't reconcile any of what you said with footage of Hogan......he never said keep the elbows close for one thing and any move (cw) with the left arm would have been completely out of character with his swing.




Martin,

Are you saying that Hogan's writings in 5 lessons have been misinterpreted?  Because Hogan clearly states to "try" and keep your elbows together as close as possible.  So "trying" and "doing" are not the same?  I find this to be the case.  I'm thin-chested with slightly hyper-extended elbows, so if I keep my elbows together as close as possible, I can get them within an inch of each other, with my forearms almost touching.  Some people claim that trying to do this creates too much tension in the arms.  For me it's exactly the opposite.  I feel that I have nothing to resist with during takeaway.

The light-bulb moment for me was finally realizing where my elbows were pointed.  When I pressed my elbows closely, they actually pointed inside of my hips, more towards my belly button.  I realized this had to be incorrect, because Hogan wrote in bold that the elbows MUST point to the hips.  So for me, I setup with my elbow pointing to my hips, then TRY  and squeeze my elbows together.  When I do this, I feel my back muscles contract and stabalize my scapula.

Edited by SwingNV, 21 September 2010 - 09:11 AM.


#23 martinez

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 04:14 PM

The written word is always going to be interpreted differently by different people. What I took from 5 lessons regarding the arms was that he said he swung his forearms toward each other. That statement is wide open to interpretation I think.....as in, it would mean very different things to different people. I take that to mean that if you roll the left arm at any stage in the swing away from the ball, you would not be swinging your forearms toward each other.

Edit...in my last post I said he never said keep the elbows close (I guess I should have looked at the pictures more closely )....I was much more interested in the 'forearms' text in the book.

Edited by martinez, 21 September 2010 - 04:21 PM.


#24 martinez

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:40 PM

I left my copy of 5L in Japan......I'll try to find out exactly, but it's definitely in "The first part of the swing" section.

#25 sertshark

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:54 PM

That photo of Big Easy gives a new meaning to Big and Easy.

I figured Hogan didn't mean it "literally" when he was describing the elbows, because when you look at videos of him, he didn't have his elbows exactly like the drawings in the book. Plus I felt as if it was creating unnecessary tension before the swing even started, by forcing your elbows into an unnatural position.


#26 millerman

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:04 AM

Hi all just joined up and find these topics of Hogan fantastic, I am a massive fan. However slightly off thread as not worked out yet how to post/start a new thread.

Whats the verdict on the two guys Tom Bertrand (hogan expert, or Secret in the dirt) I am thinking of purchasing either. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

cheers

Millerman

#27 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostLYG, on 08 August 2010 - 09:49 AM, said:

Here's my take on Hogan's elbow-close-to-sides teaching:

1. For the better player

                           Absolutely works. (But be cautious not to get too flat and too mechanical)

2. For the new player or poor golfer (whose elbows fly way way askew...and/or break the plane)

                          It works -- helps get  more "connected," compact and effective swing.

In may ways, his book -- in my opinion -- was aimed at getting the poor player to have solid FUNDAMENTALS.

Thoughts?

The thinking about keeping the elbows together seems to help alot of things.

#28 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:59 PM

View Postgrahler, on 08 August 2010 - 02:50 AM, said:

His prescribed position of the elbows-right elbow facing hip is great for:
(1) getting a good function from right arm-anti stuck mechanism(also path consistency aid frozen right elbow helps consistency of path).  
(2) Left elbow facing hip = anti hook clubface control aid.  
(3) All in all helps sequence in general for keeping hands in synch with body.  

YES  !!! to (1) and (3).  (2) I'll have to think about.  

Great thread !

#29 AlexCzervic

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:35 PM

View Postchris_golf, on 07 August 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

I see a lot of people believing that they have to keep the elbows together... In my understanding I allways believed he was meaning to keep the pressure under your armpits alive... Attachment realdeall.jpg Even on the picture on the right you can see he  pressures the upper arms to the the ripcage... The most evidence what he really meant are in this video: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_AmPuzgBXEM&hl=de_DE&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_AmPuzgBXEM&hl=de_DE&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object> This remembers me allways to a figure iceskater - the more the arms are closer to the body - the faster you spin or turn.... What do you think....Chris

Training wheels, let the left arm roll automatically, you just made an automatic swingers swivel.  That method is the easiest repeatable swivel for a novice.  The swivel must be automated for consistency.

#30 Greyboy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostJD3, on 18 August 2010 - 12:47 AM, said:

He absolutely did. Can be seen working on it throughout his career.  I know it's awkward at first, but commit to it and several things will fall into place.  

Harmon takes a lot of heat around here ... deservedly so at times ... but he did pickup one essential piece from his father having Hogan around the house.

Love this picture ....
Posted Image


This is a cool pic, and I'm assuming something I'm currently working on.  Is Butch preventhing Tigers elbow from going out (flying) and making sure he's keeping it more vertical so his hands are infront of him?

I tend to get inside and flat on the backswing, with a flying right elbow and the arms behind me causing an overswing.  I've been working on keeping that right elbow more up and down at the top of the backswing with my hands infront of me - definitely seems to help prevent me from coming OTT as much as I normally do.

Edited by Greyboy, 09 April 2013 - 11:33 AM.


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