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Upright swing vs flat


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#1 hacker101

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 04:14 PM

It seems the last few years, all the swing doctrine has leaned heavy toward the one plane swing. I have watched Matt Kucher get extremely flat for a tall guy. I am a tall player as well and have a hard time getting that flat.  Do you have to be that flat to have a one plane swing?

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#2 BJG718

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 07:00 PM

bump im very interested in this topic

#3 CUTiger7

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 07:37 PM

I wouldn't worry so much about what your swing looks like without having some professional guidance IMO. A one-plane swing can come in many forms and can be used with what works best for you. My one buddy has a one plane swing that isn't exactly flat but more towards an upright swing. He does really well with it.

#4 mattwood

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:39 PM

 Hacker, here is something that has helped me as I am a tall player.  Stand erect with your arms and club at shoulder  height in front of you.  Allow them to swing back around you which will cause the right arm to fold and at the end your clubface should be pointing up to the sky.  The club and your arms should be on plane with your shoulders.  Now bend forward in your address position and your arms and club should still be on plane with your shoulders which is a great position at the top.

#5 Professor D

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 03:54 PM

As a taller player, the vertical angle of the impact plane will be more upright for you than a shorter player, with the same club. The vertical angle of the impact plane also changes for the same player when using different length clubs.

But whether your arms stay closer to the impact plane at the top, or lift up more into an upright left arm plane, the vertical angle of the impact plane will generally be the same. In theory, a flatter left arm plane, at the top, which strays less from the impact plane, requires less movement, and thus, is more efficient. Nicklaus however, believed that his upright swing was better because it strayed less from the target line. There is no compelling proof that one is better than the other.


#6 dachtor

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 09:02 AM

this is interesting commmentary on Kuchar's swing. "Flat" can mean a number of things and can apply to the shoulder plane, left arm plane, shaft plane, etc.

http://www.planetrut...13/Default.aspx

#7 happyroman

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:32 AM

Here are a couple of videos by Jeff Ritter, a one-plane swing proponent who studied with Jim Hardy.  In a nutshell, the taller one stands, the more level the shoulder turn and the steeper the swing plane, or more of a two plane swing.  The more one bends forward, the more the shoulders turn on an inclined plane, and the flatter the swing plane.  Either way, there is a balance of steepening and shallowing influences on the swing.

http://www.youtube.c.../17/kUX2jZbUgsY

http://www.youtube.c.../36/7FhOle5P6uQ

#8 Professor D

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:02 PM

View Posthappyroman, on 29 July 2010 - 11:32 AM, said:

Here are a couple of videos by Jeff Ritter, a one-plane swing proponent who studied with Jim Hardy.  In a nutshell, the taller one stands, the more level the shoulder turn and the steeper the swing plane, or more of a two plane swing.  The more one bends forward, the more the shoulders turn on an inclined plane, and the flatter the swing plane.  Either way, there is a balance of steepening and shallowing influences on the swing.

http://www.youtube.c.../17/kUX2jZbUgsY

http://www.youtube.c.../36/7FhOle5P6uQ

In the second video, he says that an opening clubface makes the clubhead travel upward. Really?

He assumes that an upright plane automatically results in a more  descending attack angle while a flatter  plane does the opposite. But the geometry is that all swings on a  plane have a low point. Ball position, relative to low point, will  dictate attack angle. Take Jack Nicklaus. Upright swing plane. But  shallow attack angle.

And so long as the plane is parallel to the target line, then the  clubhead will be traveling directly at the target at low point, regardless  of the vertical angle of the plane.

#9 happyroman

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:42 PM

View PostProfessor D, on 29 July 2010 - 01:02 PM, said:

View Posthappyroman, on 29 July 2010 - 11:32 AM, said:

Here are a couple of videos by Jeff Ritter, a one-plane swing proponent who studied with Jim Hardy.  In a nutshell, the taller one stands, the more level the shoulder turn and the steeper the swing plane, or more of a two plane swing.  The more one bends forward, the more the shoulders turn on an inclined plane, and the flatter the swing plane.  Either way, there is a balance of steepening and shallowing influences on the swing.

http://www.youtube.c.../17/kUX2jZbUgsY

http://www.youtube.c.../36/7FhOle5P6uQ

In the second video, he says that an opening clubface makes the clubhead travel upward. Really?

He assumes that an upright plane automatically results in a more  descending attack angle while a flatter  plane does the opposite. But the geometry is that all swings on a  plane have a low point. Ball position, relative to low point, will  dictate attack angle. Take Jack Nicklaus. Upright swing plane. But  shallow attack angle.

And so long as the plane is parallel to the target line, then the  clubhead will be traveling directly at the target at low point, regardless  of the vertical angle of the plane.

Actually, what he said is that an opening club face is swinging up and away from the ground, or is shallowing (i.e., the clubface is turning up away from the ground as it opens) as opposed as a closing clubface which is turning down into the ground. The key phrase was "as relates to clubface position."

Also, I don't think he is necessarily talking about the merits of  upright vs. flat, but is saying that swing planes that are too far from neutral, be they too upright or too flat, require compensations in order to balance shallowing vs. steepening influences in the swing.  I thing he is using shallow and steep to describe the plan as viewed from down the line, not the angle of attack, as viewed from face on.

#10 Professor D

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:53 PM

It's virtually impossible to rotate the clubface clockwise/open through the impact zone. Even a clubface which arrives at impact open to its path will have rotated counter-clockwise a good amount. Science disproves the theory.


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#11 happyroman

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:57 PM

View PostProfessor D, on 29 July 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's virtually impossible to rotate the clubface clockwise/open through the impact zone. Even a clubface which arrives at impact open to its path will have rotated counter-clockwise a good amount. Science disproves the theory.

Good point.  I assume he didn't really mean that the clubface was rotating counterclockwise, although that is what he implied.  He probably meant that the clubface was open at impact, rather than opening.

#12 JD3

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 04:03 AM

Is that really a pro's swing? Looks awfully sloppy to me.
Kuchar Driver 2010

Edited by JD3, 13 August 2010 - 04:03 AM.


#13 MacBooky

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:05 AM

View PostJD3, on 13 August 2010 - 04:03 AM, said:

Is that really a pro's swing? Looks awfully sloppy to me.
Kuchar Driver 2010

Well he's -4 at the Straights, so ......

#14 MacBooky

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:12 AM

View PostProfessor D, on 29 July 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's virtually impossible to rotate the clubface clockwise/open through the impact zone. Even a clubface which arrives at impact open to its path will have rotated counter-clockwise a good amount. Science disproves the theory.

I would agree with you, yet that is what slicers try to do to get the club o/o the ground ... however path is the culprit ....

Also I get the impression from that video that Ritter blames the curves on the face position instead off on the plane ... which puts him on my blacklist






#15 MacBooky

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:14 AM

View Posthacker101, on 27 July 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

It seems the last few years, all the swing doctrine has leaned heavy toward the one plane swing. I have watched Matt Kucher get extremely flat for a tall guy. I am a tall player as well and have a hard time getting that flat.  Do you have to be that flat to have a one plane swing?

Noop, your shoulderplane and armplane should match up ...... steepening shoulder plane is imo more important than flattening armplane, which should happen automatically if you stop lifting the arms o/t ribcage

Edited by MacBooky, 13 August 2010 - 06:15 AM.


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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:21 AM

View Posthacker101, on 27 July 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

It seems the last few years, all the swing doctrine has leaned heavy toward the one plane swing. I have watched Matt Kucher get extremely flat for a tall guy. I am a tall player as well and have a hard time getting that flat.  Do you have to be that flat to have a one plane swing?

How tall are you? And why the fascination with flattening out your swing? Like the professor said, taller people will normally be more upright than say a shorter, or more compact golfer. And the swing plane is what it is, forcing yourself to flatten your swing may not be a wise thing to do. I am wondering too, were you properly fitted to your current clubs? I have seen many tall players playing standard lie and length clubs which they tried to make their swing fit. It most always led to disaster trying to compensate (flattening the swing, standing further away from the ball) for poor equipment choices.

#17 seveniron

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:08 PM

Quote

Kuchar Driver 2010[/url]      ]

Yeah, what a terrible swing.  He must be at least a double digit handicap.  Oh wait, he's leading the PGA.

#18 scores

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:06 AM

U r equipment needs to b adjusted. I would get a second set of irons that r flatter. If u do not adjust u r equipment u will fail making this adjustment.

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 03:27 AM

I think what ever your most natural way of swinging is what you should use, regardless of your height.  I'm 6'2" and have wrongly been fitted by the stereotype of tall + upright, short=flat.  Just a few posts ago I mentioned I got my clubs bent from 1 up to 1 flat and I'm really liking the change. (Hook reduction). For me its just more natural for my arms to stay on the same plane as my shoulders.  I've tried to make my swing more upright with my usual results is more power off the tee, but poor iron and wedge play.  The 19th hole, however, does make it harder to turn as the seasons go by

#20 JD3

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 04:55 PM

View Postseveniron, on 13 August 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Quote

Kuchar Driver 2010[/url]      ]

Yeah, what a terrible swing.  He must be at least a double digit handicap.  Oh wait, he's leading the PGA.
Not much doubt the tense of that statement would change from present to past by time it was all over. Nice guy I'm sure, but he really doesn't scare anyone out there.


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#21 gspjeb

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 09:33 PM

fairly tall golfer here at 6'5".  I am a one planer and use the slicefixer type swing with pretty darn good results.  It is flatter for me but I have had huge improvements with it.

#22 golf playa

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 09:53 PM

I'm 5'9''. not that tall but i have a sort of flat swing. flat going back. not that flat on the top though. but it works for me.




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