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why cant i stop laying off at the top?


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#1 TimSF

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:26 PM

So, for about 3 months now, I've been fighting to get my club down the line at the top of my backswing. I've tried nearly everything, even posting a thread or 2 about it before. If I could only get it down the line, things would become so much easier to start my downswing. It's almost too frustrating to deal with it this point. Due to my dreadful duck hooks and poor ball striking (because of laying off i have an intense loop, causing even more problems), I've almost lost desire to even play. Any comments, tips, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.


Thanks,
tim


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#2 shortstop20

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:52 PM

View PostTimSF, on 02 July 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

So, for about 3 months now, I've been fighting to get my club down the line at the top of my backswing. I've tried nearly everything, even posting a thread or 2 about it before. If I could only get it down the line, things would become so much easier to start my downswing. It's almost too frustrating to deal with it this point. Due to my dreadful duck hooks and poor ball striking (because of laying off i have an intense loop, causing even more problems), I've almost lost desire to even play. Any comments, tips, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.


Thanks,
tim

You're not alone, I'm going through the same thing, finally starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. I was seriously considering giving up playing for the rest of the year a few weeks ago.

Do you have a video of your swing? If you are taking the club back on plane, it's quite difficult to get layed off without some whacky body movements, like excessive forearm rotation or something like that.

#3 TimSF

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:58 PM





thats my most recent, pretty solid, but thats because i shortened it up. if i were to try and go back to my normal length it'd be so layed off you'd cry for me.

#4 shortstop20

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:07 PM

So you get more laid off the longer your swing gets and LESS laid off the shorter your swing is?????

I would say that is the opposite of most people.

Your takeaway is quite similar to mine, The laid off position seems to result in a loop on the downswing for me as well. I think it's almost a subconscious feeling that we somehow know we have to "drop" the club back down so we do it without realizing, it works for some people. The club feels like it's in a more stable position for me when I try to take it away just a little bit more inside and steeper. This gets me closer to having the clubshaft pointing down the line at the top.

Edited by shortstop20, 02 July 2010 - 09:13 PM.


#5 iteachgolf

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:16 PM

hands must move in more.  more the hands work away from you initially in the takeaway the more your left arm will rotate and the more off plane you will get.  The deeper you get the easier it will be to get the club on plane.


#6 TourBound3617

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:24 PM

i feel really smart. i was going to say the same thing as iteach!

#7 Scottk

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:29 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 July 2010 - 09:16 PM, said:

hands must move in more.  more the hands work away from you initially in the takeaway the more your left arm will rotate and the more off plane you will get.  The deeper you get the easier it will be to get the club on plane.

Iteach:  can you clarify? When you say hands in more, do you mean a more inside take away?

#8 TourBound3617

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:31 PM

correct me if i'm wrong, iteach. I think he meant that on the takeaway you should keep your hands closer to you, as in feeling like you almost brush your right pocket with your hands. This will keep the clubhead on or near plane. When you take it away, your rotate your hands moving them slightly outward, which throws the clubhead inside, creating a laid off club.

Edited by TourBound3617, 02 July 2010 - 09:33 PM.


#9 dream_stryker

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:35 PM

I suspect you are trying to artificially get the shaft lined up parallel to the target line at the end of the takeaway.  By forcing this, you are backing the clubhead up too far and wrapping the shaft behind you too fast.  Are you rolling the left arm to the right throughout the backswing?  It sure appears that way.  Keep the clubhead outside the hands longer and it will pass though the right positions on its own.  After your takeaway is over, try to feel the right forearm and shaft coming towards your right shoulder.  Down worry, your shoulders will continue to turn and the shaft will not come over the shoulder but will behind it and parallel left to the target line.   Hope this helps...it's a little tough without knowing what your thoughts are to start brining the club back.

#10 fanofsaosin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:39 PM

if i can throw some insight i use to take it by bending my right elbow to much till i was wrong.... if you keep pressure in your armpits... and turn while tilting left your hands will follow and keep you on plane.... took a lot of sitting in front of a mirror and practice to get it right.... also doesn't hurt to buy one of those sticks from home depot and stick it into the ground at an angle that your hands are on at address


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#11 iteachgolf

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:43 PM

View PostTourBound3617, on 02 July 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

correct me if i'm wrong, iteach. I think he meant that on the takeaway you should keep your hands closer to you, as in feeling like you almost brush your right pocket with your hands. This will keep the clubhead on or near plane. When you take it away, your rotate your hands moving them slightly outward, which throws the clubhead inside, creating a laid off club.
correct, hands need to move more in not the clubhead.

#12 Scottk

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:52 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 July 2010 - 09:43 PM, said:

View PostTourBound3617, on 02 July 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

correct me if i'm wrong, iteach. I think he meant that on the takeaway you should keep your hands closer to you, as in feeling like you almost brush your right pocket with your hands. This will keep the clubhead on or near plane. When you take it away, your rotate your hands moving them slightly outward, which throws the clubhead inside, creating a laid off club.
correct, hands need to move more in not the clubhead.

Thank you for clearing that up. That makes perfect sense.  I am glad this thread got started.  I know that I get laid off and off plane.  When I think it is better, I hook up my laser and take my backswing indoors and watch the red laser go two feet outside of line.  I hooked my laser up and kept my hands in after reading Iteach's response and the red line goes right down the target line (behind it).   Iteach, I remember a great thread you posted with photos and I think videos of your students keeping their hands in and the amazing progress they made.  A hyperlink might be helpful to the OP - and many others.

#13 hoganfan924

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:55 PM

Honestly doesn't look bad to me at all, especially considering you're short of parallel.  Wish I could get to that position, I'd love it!  I think the main reason you go "laid off" right at the end of the backswing is that you get into a bowed left wrist position right at the end.  Kinda' like Tiger has been doing for a couple of years now.

#14 TimSF

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:56 PM

Great responses, never got feedback about this situation in my other posts.

iTeach, i am thrilled that you took the time to respond in attempt to help, but im still slightly confused as to what you mean. Perhaps a video drill or a photo sequence would be of much more help. IF of course thats of no trouble to you.

#15 iteachgolf

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:59 PM

http://www.golfwrx.c..._1#entry1948363


#16 grahler

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:08 PM

Iteach is moneyonthis right on.  Deeper-don'tthink in a negative way of stopping a movement-work proactively to get deeper-IMO your "shortened up" armswing is PLENTY long-a lot of folks swing slower when they swing longer.

#17 TimSF

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 12:23 AM

When you guys say getting deeper, do you mean deeper inside with my hands? Or deeper at the top (meaning a lower arm swing)? Sorry, i learn best by seeing then reading.

#18 grahler

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 12:39 AM

For a thought to work on on backswing(strictly for the purpose of getting the hands deep)  If Iwere you I would try a few balls thinking turn shoulders-then lift arms.
A lot of potential in your action methinks.  IMO turn shoulders then lift (crude thought to get hands further behind you).  IMO your troubles will be worse the further your hands get above shoulder height at the top.
Take my advice with a grain of salt-I am no pro.

#19 jadedennill

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 01:46 AM

Once set up to the ball, drop your right shoulder/ side to add a slight tilt to your spine angle.  This will open the club face at address, but you need to understand that the clubface is not open, your forearms are opne.  This will also eliminate the need to flare the face open from address.  It becomes eerily simple.  Once set up with the slight spine tilt, and lower right shoulder, its just a turn of the sternum coupled with a lift of the arms.  If done correctly and free of tension, it undoubtedly removes ANY reason to manipulate the plane, or FA, and that includes laying it off or crossing the line. It's a simple sequence, and also the most efficient way to get the club to the top in a good position.  The backswing is just a weight shift, a shoulder/sternum turn, and an arm lift.  No need to worry about wrist hinge, or pronation/supination.  Done correctly, this simple sequence will take care of the rest.



#20 TimSF

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 04:06 PM

some good people on this forum. haha. thanks everyone for all your input and advice.


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#21 fife321

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 04:54 PM

Iteach,

Can you explain what to do after the club reaches the hips on the backswing?  I'm very flat/ laid off at this point, and can't seem to keep the face square or keep the club on plane.  I don't know if it's a mental breakdown, of fundamental...



Any help is appreciated..

#22 iteachgolf

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 05:03 PM

View Postfife321, on 04 July 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

Iteach,

Can you explain what to do after the club reaches the hips on the backswing?  I'm very flat/ laid off at this point, and can't seem to keep the face square or keep the club on plane.  I don't know if it's a mental breakdown, of fundamental...



Any help is appreciated..
Posted Image
Posted Image

Compare these two photos.  Left arm is over rotating early in the takeaway.  Try some feeling like the left arm doesn't rotate and the club is more closed and steeper going back.  

Video of an example


#23 fife321

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 05:12 PM

Let me give it a try, thanks for the video/ help!




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