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How does Dustin Johnson not hook every shot?


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#31 moonshine

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 03:38 PM

While you all are arguing, I would mention if Furyk can win the big one anybody can.  Analyze that "taught" swing.

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#32 glcoach

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 06:12 PM

View PostMP60dude, on 21 June 2010 - 03:38 PM, said:

While you all are arguing, I would mention if Furyk can win the big one anybody can.  Analyze that "taught" swing.


His swing is better than most out there ...he absolutely lights up the trackman.

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#33 scribling

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:20 PM

View Postcwdlaw223, on 19 June 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

How does he square up such a shut face at impact?  He could wait tables with his clubface at the top of his backswing.

It's Dustin's right hand that's the key.  Because he's not holding the club like a rifle or flyswatter with his wrist perpendicular to the shaft, as we're all taught, he can swing it without having to rotate the shaft.  Although, Dustin's grip at address looks fairly normal, look closely how he's tweaking the right hand to get the wrist more parallel to the shaft.  At the top of the backswing his right hand has moved to be more parallel to the shaft than perpendicular or slightly askew.  This allows him to truly use the shaft of the club like a club rather than the rifle grip which dictates you swing the club like a fly swatter.  
I don't know why everyone is so concerned with his left wrist.  The left wrist is only doing what the right hand forced it to do, not the other way around.  For a right handed person the right hand is the most important and dexterous part of our body.  The rest of the body reacts to what the right hand is doing or is going to do, and we want to remove this from the golf swing?  Well yes, if you're gripping the club like a fly swatter or rifle with your right hand it's impossible to swing the club like Dustin.  The club will always release too soon and roll over and it's all caused by the right hand grip.  

The real secret is to have both wrists aligned and working in the same direction.  When the wrists are aligned the forearms are parallel.  We grip a baseball bat and a tennis racket this way and it works well, naturally.  Why do we hold a golf club like a bat in the left hand and like a fly swatter with the right?  How are two grips in different directions supposed to work together?  They don't, which is why golf is so hard for so many people.  
Solution: It's crazy simple ... Raise the heel pad of your right hand to be just slightly higher on your left thumb.  This will put your left thumb across the heel pad and thumb pad of the right hand.  Your wrists should now be aligned or at least close and your forearms should be parallel but facing in opposite directions.  The club will no longer be in line with either arms and should now be more parallel to the wrists than aligned with them.  If you're going to break a board with your hand you'd break it with the heel pad of your right hand without use of the right wrist at all - it's the end of the forearm you're smashing into the board.  This is the same feeling you should have when you're approaching a golf ball with the club gripped properly.  Your right hand will feel like it's upside down and your right forearm should be facing upward and you're not using the right wrist at all.
Watch any big hitter and you'll see this right hand position, Dustin, Sadlowsky, Flagg ... they all do it.

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#34 Universal

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:37 PM

View Postglcoach, on 21 June 2010 - 03:21 PM, said:


It is the face, just because the wrist is bowed at the top doesn't mean it is "closed"...just less open.  All faces open up on the backswing, if they didn't, you couldn't even make a backswing.

None of what you wrote is accurate. DJ's clubface is ABSOLUTELY closed at the top. If he stopped his swing at the top and put his club back to address without manipulating the face, it would be completely closed.

Secondly, clubface does not "open" in a good backswing.

Edited by Universal, 13 February 2018 - 01:38 PM.


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#35 epyon

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:40 PM

Why are you guys responding to comments for almost 8 years ago?  lol

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#36 Universal

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:57 PM

View Postepyon, on 13 February 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Why are you guys responding to comments for almost 8 years ago?  lol

Haha...I didn't see the dates. Somehow that thread ended up on the first page for me.

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#37 getitdaily

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:28 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 20 June 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

View PostTallVolFan, on 20 June 2010 - 12:08 AM, said:

First and foremost....a closed clubface has never been the reason for a hook. Thats just one of many misconceptions about golf and ball flight. In actuality, a slice that starts left and moves to the right, is hit with a closed face. A closed face player can hit hooks, cuts, and straight balls. Not realizing these facts is a major reason people dont improve at this game.

Great post. Many of the great Tour players with shut clubs were faders.

Trevino and Azinger to name two. All of my students who have shut clubs I always recommend they hit fades rather than change their swings drastically.

I've always been a closed clubface guy. I was also a very hip active guy. Last year, around this time, I played in a 3day tourney and got into a case of the smother hooks (not a food dish). It ticked me off so bad the first 2 days that I said "I'm playing a fade for every shot in the 3rd round. That round was so successful that I decided to just move to the fade altogether. Honestly, a much easier transition than 15 years ago when I worked on quieting the lower body to reduce the need for good timing.

Now, I jist take the club back a bit shut, in top of the plane, and then just fire everything a bit left of path. Beautiful baby cuts. More fairways, more greens. And...no distance loss.

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#38 gioguy21

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:36 PM

fairly neutral path, as well as clubface angle?

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#39 oikos1

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:38 PM

Lol.  TallVolFan rising up from the ashes...

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#40 Sean2

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:44 PM

Twist face technology.

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#41 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 12:38 AM

View Postoikos1, on 13 February 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

Lol.  TallVolFan rising up from the ashes...
Ahhh the good old days....

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#42 tgreenwood11

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 06:45 AM

His face is never shut.  It's square to the arc of his clubhead path longer than most any other player in history.  I love it when the analysts  on TV talk about how shut he is at the top. He's not. They did the same analysis on Trevino and Duval.  If the toe of the club at the top of the swing is pointing down or slightly down it's open to the arc and requires manipulation of the clubhead to square it up on the downswing.  If the clubface is pointing to the sky, it's square to the arc.  The problem for many golfers is that they can't get enough leverage and need some arm and wrist rotation to get the width they need on the backswing which will open the clubface.   I'm convinced that if you can keep the clubface so-called "shut" throughout the swing it's a better way to play.  You do need a lot of flexibility, strength and body rotation to execute properly, however.  As you might notice, some "shut face" players have shorter backswings; i.e. Lee Trevino, Dan Pohl, Zach Johnson.


https://youtu.be/Soba0sGGML8


Kostis has it wrong.

Edited by tgreenwood11, 14 February 2018 - 06:47 AM.


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#43 Pigems

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:15 AM

This is DJ, it’s from this article, https://blog.trackma...017-wgc-mexico/

Edited by Pigems, 14 February 2018 - 09:17 AM.

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#44 scribling

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 12:50 PM

View Posttgreenwood11, on 14 February 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

His face is never shut.  It's square to the arc of his clubhead path longer than most any other player in history.  I love it when the analysts  on TV talk about how shut he is at the top. He's not. They did the same analysis on Trevino and Duval.  If the toe of the club at the top of the swing is pointing down or slightly down it's open to the arc and requires manipulation of the clubhead to square it up on the downswing.  If the clubface is pointing to the sky, it's square to the arc.  The problem for many golfers is that they can't get enough leverage and need some arm and wrist rotation to get the width they need on the backswing which will open the clubface.   I'm convinced that if you can keep the clubface so-called "shut" throughout the swing it's a better way to play.  You do need a lot of flexibility, strength and body rotation to execute properly, however.  As you might notice, some "shut face" players have shorter backswings; i.e. Lee Trevino, Dan Pohl, Zach Johnson.


https://youtu.be/Soba0sGGML8


Kostis has it wrong.

Why does anyone care at all what the clubface is doing at the top?  You don't hit the ball at the top of your backswing!  Impact is where you need to be concerned about the clubface.  Because the toe of the club weighs more than the heel when swinging, by design, this allows you to use it's inertia to manipulate it, if you know how.  Most people over-maniupulate the toe of the club to close too early in the downswing in a futile effort to make sure that f'n ball don't go right, but because they closed it so early it's now outside the shaft or even in front of it and they're still forcefully moving the shaft toward the ball so inertia is now working against them and opening the clubface as they move through the ball.  If a club is hanging limp and you hit the shaft forward the toe of the club opens, this is what's happening when you close the face too soon.  Now, if you let a club swing and stop it at the shaft the toe closes, of course, everyone knows that, so why do so many people force it closed so early?  Fear of hitting the ball right prevents the players from making the motion and allowing the trust needed to allow the club to do what it was engineered to do.  
Back to the point ... When you know how to manipulate the inertia of the toe you can take the club away leaving the face closed so that you can feel the weight of the toe dragging, like Brooks Koepka, and then as you start down, relax and let the toe open, hit it's max rotation, rebound and then strike the ball.  It's how we throw a ball.  We allow the arm to relax, rotate until it can't any more, then it rebounds and then we put muscular effort into it and throw.  That's how these players take the club away so shut and still hit fades.  Yes?
If you've never tried anything like this just try swinging and keeping the clubhead outside of your hands, Furyk style, and see how much more in tune you are with the weight of the club.

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#45 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:33 PM

If the face is too open at the top you're going to have to get some rate of closure somehow...usually manipulating the wrist on the way down.

DJ just presets it so he doesn't have to manipulate it. It's really that simple. One less timing aspect he has to focus on.

I mean you don't have to have a bowed wrist in order to square the club face, but a lot of guys like it.

Hogan had the cupped wrist, but he managed to manipulate it before impact...which requires a little bit of timing.

But the way DJ hits a fade is by getting more rotation and decreasing his right lateral bend. It's more “on plane” and path more to the left along with the same drive/hold release.

Posted Image

Rahm does the same damn thing. His left arm just isn't as high:

Posted Image

Edited by NikeGolferTX, 14 February 2018 - 01:40 PM.


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#46 QEight

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:50 PM

View PostPigems, on 14 February 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

This is DJ, it's from this article, https://blog.trackma...017-wgc-mexico/

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#47 iteachgolf

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 14 February 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

If the face is too open at the top you're going to have to get some rate of closure somehow...usually manipulating the wrist on the way down.

DJ just presets it so he doesn't have to manipulate it. It's really that simple. One less timing aspect he has to focus on.

I mean you don't have to have a bowed wrist in order to square the club face, but a lot of guys like it.

Hogan had the cupped wrist, but he managed to manipulate it before impact...which requires a little bit of timing.

But the way DJ hits a fade is by getting more rotation and decreasing his right lateral bend. It's more “on plane” and path more to the left along with the same drive/hold release.

Posted Image

Rahm does the same damn thing. His left arm just isn't as high:

Posted Image

Everyone has a rate of closure through impact.  Face is closing both relative to target line and path.

DJ has as much right side bend as virtually anyone on the planet at impact.

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#48 WILDTHING

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:27 PM

I'm trying to understand why he doesn't slice it?

I'm assuming he keeps his bowed left wrist into impact?  If you just placed the club at address and palmer flexed your left wrist , check out what happens to the clubface relative to the target line and swing path . Isn't the club face open ? Doesn't that mean he has to rotate his arm/forearm more to get the clubface square by impact?

Edited by WILDTHING, 14 February 2018 - 07:46 PM.


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#49 iteachgolf

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:06 PM

View PostWILDTHING, on 14 February 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

I'm trying to understand why he doesn't slice it?

I'm assuming he keeps his bowed left wrist into impact?  If you just placed the club at address and palmer flexed your left wrist , check out what happens to the clubface relative to the target line and swing path . Isn't the club face open ? Doesn't that mean he has to rotate his arm/forearm more to get the clubface square by impact?

Left wrist is extending and his left arm is rotating from hip high to impact.

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#50 scribling

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:21 PM

Again, I don't think the left wrist is the thing to focus on.  I believe it's the right.  The right wrist is loaded as much as it can be and pulling the left wrist into the bow that everyone is so concerned with.  Without the load of the right wrist the left wrist would mean nothing.  There's no power in simply bowing the left wrist, but there is in loading the right.


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#51 Mozza73

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 11:01 AM

View Postscribling, on 13 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

View Postcwdlaw223, on 19 June 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

How does he square up such a shut face at impact?  He could wait tables with his clubface at the top of his backswing.

It's Dustin's right hand that's the key.  Because he's not holding the club like a rifle or flyswatter with his wrist perpendicular to the shaft, as we're all taught, he can swing it without having to rotate the shaft.  Although, Dustin's grip at address looks fairly normal, look closely how he's tweaking the right hand to get the wrist more parallel to the shaft.  At the top of the backswing his right hand has moved to be more parallel to the shaft than perpendicular or slightly askew.  This allows him to truly use the shaft of the club like a club rather than the rifle grip which dictates you swing the club like a fly swatter.  
I don't know why everyone is so concerned with his left wrist.  The left wrist is only doing what the right hand forced it to do, not the other way around.  For a right handed person the right hand is the most important and dexterous part of our body.  The rest of the body reacts to what the right hand is doing or is going to do, and we want to remove this from the golf swing?  Well yes, if you're gripping the club like a fly swatter or rifle with your right hand it's impossible to swing the club like Dustin.  The club will always release too soon and roll over and it's all caused by the right hand grip.  

The real secret is to have both wrists aligned and working in the same direction.  When the wrists are aligned the forearms are parallel.  We grip a baseball bat and a tennis racket this way and it works well, naturally.  Why do we hold a golf club like a bat in the left hand and like a fly swatter with the right?  How are two grips in different directions supposed to work together?  They don't, which is why golf is so hard for so many people.  
Solution: It's crazy simple ... Raise the heel pad of your right hand to be just slightly higher on your left thumb.  This will put your left thumb across the heel pad and thumb pad of the right hand.  Your wrists should now be aligned or at least close and your forearms should be parallel but facing in opposite directions.  The club will no longer be in line with either arms and should now be more parallel to the wrists than aligned with them.  If you're going to break a board with your hand you'd break it with the heel pad of your right hand without use of the right wrist at all - it's the end of the forearm you're smashing into the board.  This is the same feeling you should have when you're approaching a golf ball with the club gripped properly.  Your right hand will feel like it's upside down and your right forearm should be facing upward and you're not using the right wrist at all.
Watch any big hitter and you'll see this right hand position, Dustin, Sadlowsky, Flagg ... they all do it.

Brilliant post. Deserves more credit.

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#52 iteachgolf

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 02:10 PM

View PostMozza73, on 18 February 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

View Postscribling, on 13 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

View Postcwdlaw223, on 19 June 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

How does he square up such a shut face at impact?  He could wait tables with his clubface at the top of his backswing.

It's Dustin's right hand that's the key.  Because he's not holding the club like a rifle or flyswatter with his wrist perpendicular to the shaft, as we're all taught, he can swing it without having to rotate the shaft.  Although, Dustin's grip at address looks fairly normal, look closely how he's tweaking the right hand to get the wrist more parallel to the shaft.  At the top of the backswing his right hand has moved to be more parallel to the shaft than perpendicular or slightly askew.  This allows him to truly use the shaft of the club like a club rather than the rifle grip which dictates you swing the club like a fly swatter.  
I don't know why everyone is so concerned with his left wrist.  The left wrist is only doing what the right hand forced it to do, not the other way around.  For a right handed person the right hand is the most important and dexterous part of our body.  The rest of the body reacts to what the right hand is doing or is going to do, and we want to remove this from the golf swing?  Well yes, if you're gripping the club like a fly swatter or rifle with your right hand it's impossible to swing the club like Dustin.  The club will always release too soon and roll over and it's all caused by the right hand grip.  

The real secret is to have both wrists aligned and working in the same direction.  When the wrists are aligned the forearms are parallel.  We grip a baseball bat and a tennis racket this way and it works well, naturally.  Why do we hold a golf club like a bat in the left hand and like a fly swatter with the right?  How are two grips in different directions supposed to work together?  They don't, which is why golf is so hard for so many people.  
Solution: It's crazy simple ... Raise the heel pad of your right hand to be just slightly higher on your left thumb.  This will put your left thumb across the heel pad and thumb pad of the right hand.  Your wrists should now be aligned or at least close and your forearms should be parallel but facing in opposite directions.  The club will no longer be in line with either arms and should now be more parallel to the wrists than aligned with them.  If you're going to break a board with your hand you'd break it with the heel pad of your right hand without use of the right wrist at all - it's the end of the forearm you're smashing into the board.  This is the same feeling you should have when you're approaching a golf ball with the club gripped properly.  Your right hand will feel like it's upside down and your right forearm should be facing upward and you're not using the right wrist at all.
Watch any big hitter and you'll see this right hand position, Dustin, Sadlowsky, Flagg ... they all do it.

Brilliant post. Deserves more credit.

Except Sadlowski has a grip that’s basically opposite DJ

22

#53 Billy Baroo

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:21 PM

View Postscribling, on 13 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

View Postcwdlaw223, on 19 June 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

How does he square up such a shut face at impact?  He could wait tables with his clubface at the top of his backswing.

It's Dustin's right hand that's the key.  Because he's not holding the club like a rifle or flyswatter with his wrist perpendicular to the shaft, as we're all taught, he can swing it without having to rotate the shaft.  Although, Dustin's grip at address looks fairly normal, look closely how he's tweaking the right hand to get the wrist more parallel to the shaft.  At the top of the backswing his right hand has moved to be more parallel to the shaft than perpendicular or slightly askew.  This allows him to truly use the shaft of the club like a club rather than the rifle grip which dictates you swing the club like a fly swatter.  
I don't know why everyone is so concerned with his left wrist.  The left wrist is only doing what the right hand forced it to do, not the other way around.  For a right handed person the right hand is the most important and dexterous part of our body.  The rest of the body reacts to what the right hand is doing or is going to do, and we want to remove this from the golf swing?  Well yes, if you're gripping the club like a fly swatter or rifle with your right hand it's impossible to swing the club like Dustin.  The club will always release too soon and roll over and it's all caused by the right hand grip.  

The real secret is to have both wrists aligned and working in the same direction.  When the wrists are aligned the forearms are parallel.  We grip a baseball bat and a tennis racket this way and it works well, naturally.  Why do we hold a golf club like a bat in the left hand and like a fly swatter with the right?  How are two grips in different directions supposed to work together?  They don't, which is why golf is so hard for so many people.  
Solution: It's crazy simple ... Raise the heel pad of your right hand to be just slightly higher on your left thumb.  This will put your left thumb across the heel pad and thumb pad of the right hand.  Your wrists should now be aligned or at least close and your forearms should be parallel but facing in opposite directions.  The club will no longer be in line with either arms and should now be more parallel to the wrists than aligned with them.  If you're going to break a board with your hand you'd break it with the heel pad of your right hand without use of the right wrist at all - it's the end of the forearm you're smashing into the board.  This is the same feeling you should have when you're approaching a golf ball with the club gripped properly.  Your right hand will feel like it's upside down and your right forearm should be facing upward and you're not using the right wrist at all.
Watch any big hitter and you'll see this right hand position, Dustin, Sadlowsky, Flagg ... they all do it.

That's a world class post and very insightful. I have been looking at DJ's right hand grip for some time now and trying to put my head around it. You sir provided the missing link.
Maybe.....Yessir!

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#54 WILDTHING

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:00 AM

Maybe someone should ask DJ to just swing with his left hand and see if he still has that bowed wrist at the top. Then we will know the answer about right hand influencing the left or not.

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#55 scribling

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:34 AM

View PostWILDTHING, on 19 February 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

Maybe someone should ask DJ to just swing with his left hand and see if he still has that bowed wrist at the top. Then we will know the answer about right hand influencing the left or not.
Yes!  That would do it.


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#56 Middler

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:38 AM

How does Bubba Watson keep the ball in play at all? I'm happy for his win, but what a wild swing...
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#57 scribling

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:47 AM

Watch the big hitters as they're taking the club away, there's a little move where they turn their right palm toward the ground, bending the right wrist backward or in "extension."
Most amateurs either leave the right wrist neutral or move it the opposite direction, into "flexion," as they take the club away.  

Try to put your right wrist in extension, without the left wrist going into flexion.  As long as your hands are on the same club one has to do the opposite of the other.  Also, if you're holding the club like a flyswatter with the right hand none of this is possible.
Posted Image

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#58 dpb5031

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:58 AM

View Postscribling, on 19 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

Watch the big hitters as they're taking the club away, there's a little move where they turn their right palm toward the ground, bending the right wrist backward or in "extension."
Most amateurs either leave the right wrist neutral or move it the opposite direction, into "flexion," as they take the club away.  

Try to put your right wrist in extension, without the left wrist going into flexion.  As long as your hands are on the same club one has to do the opposite of the other.  Also, if you're holding the club like a flyswatter with the right hand none of this is possible.
Posted Image

You're losing me with the fly swatter reference. Probably my own denseness, but can you explain/elaborate?

Edited by dpb5031, 19 February 2018 - 09:58 AM.

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#59 scribling

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:22 AM

View PostMiddler, on 19 February 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

How does Bubba Watson keep the ball in play at all? I'm happy for his win, but what a wild swing...

I'm with you there.  Bubba's swing is just, let's say, unpleasant to watch.  The one thing I do like is that he's never had a lesson.  He's not tormented by the teachings of traditional American golf instruction.  He's figured out how to make the ball do what he wants and doesn't care what it looks like.

So many of amateurs are tortured by what they "think" is correct yet doesn't produce the result they want, so they just keep trying harder and harder leading to frustration and anger.

I always wondered how someone would play if I said to them, "I'll give you a million dollars to shoot even par.  You get one chance."  Would they ever hit driver or would they just hit putter the whole round?  What would be the most effective method of moving that ball through the course with all conventional golf method aside?  I imagine most people would hit putter a lot.  Personally, I use a putter all the time from under trees or anywhere I want to make sure to get out.  Friends are always asking, "you hit putter there?"   "Yes! It stays low. Has top spin and you pretty much can't chunk a putter."  (I played 9 holes with only a putter once and parred most holes.)  
My point is, if you'd play differently if you were playing for a million dollars, why aren't you playing that way now?  The point of the game is to move the ball through the course as efficiently as possible.  It's not about style, it's not about how, it's how many.  

I have a friend who's never been especially good at golf and he said to me one day, "I can kill it if I use a baseball grip."  He did!  I said, "Why the hell wouldn't you do that all the time?  There's nothing wrong with that and if it works for you, do it."  He'd been doing what he thought was correct although it made him a much worse golfer, and yet he did it anyway!  That's just crazy.  How many people out there are doing what they think is correct but it makes them horrible golfers?  Most people with athletic ability are pretty good when they first start, then someone gets a hold of them and tells them about weight shift and swing plane and next thing you know they can't hit the ball to save their life.  They can't remember what it was like to swing a club before these stupid concepts infected their head.  Before there was no thought, the body did what it needed to do unconsciously, but now, there's something there that can't be forgotten, preventing the body from moving so naturally as it once did.  

I wish we could simply wipe the concept of "weight shift" out of existence and replace it with "pressure transfer."  The concept of weight shift makes almost everyone do idiotic things.  We'd be so much better off without it.

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#60 scribling

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:26 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 19 February 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

View Postscribling, on 19 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

Watch the big hitters as they're taking the club away, there's a little move where they turn their right palm toward the ground, bending the right wrist backward or in "extension."
Most amateurs either leave the right wrist neutral or move it the opposite direction, into "flexion," as they take the club away.  

Try to put your right wrist in extension, without the left wrist going into flexion.  As long as your hands are on the same club one has to do the opposite of the other.  Also, if you're holding the club like a flyswatter with the right hand none of this is possible.
Posted Image

You're losing me with the fly swatter reference. Probably my own denseness, but can you explain/elaborate?

Sure, when you're holding a flyswatter or rifle with your right hand your right forearm is more or less in line with the handle and your wrist is nearly perpendicular to the handle.  The handle becomes an extension of your forearm.  When you hold a club, like a club it's at nearly a right angle to your forearm and your wrist is nearly parallel to the handle.


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