[dfife]

Here's the scenario:

Given a 4 - man scramble team made up of the following:
2 with handicaps between 10 and 5
2 with handicaps between 15 and 25

Over the course of a season on the PGA Tour would they make enough money as a team to keep their card. Obviously rules would be more strict about where the ball was played from and etc. The key is playing from the same tees and on the same set-up would the team keeps their card?

So what does everyone think?

[mji009]

dfife, on Jun 28 2006, 11:21 AM, said:

Here's the scenario:

Given a 4 - man scramble team made up of the following:
2 with handicaps between 10 and 5
2 with handicaps between 15 and 25

Over the course of a season on the PGA Tour would they make enough money as a team to keep their card. Obviously rules would be more strict about where the ball was played from and etc. The key is playing from the same tees and on the same set-up would the team keeps their card?

So what does everyone think?

I would go with yes. Being that scramble plays the best shot, given the ordinary talents of a 4 man team such as you propose, with each having different strengths and weaknesses (whereas a pro has many strengths and little weaknesses), I would think they would earn their keep on the tour. It will be interesting to hear what others have to say.

[CowtownTexas]

You let me set up a team based on guys in my group and we'll not only keep our card, we'll win every event but one (everyone has an off week).

Wouldn't even be close.

[Johnny]

The scramble team would do alright on the PGA Tour... my team is of that handicap make up and we have shot 57,61,62.. Ofcourse PGA courses are tougher so our average would be somewhat higher..but we should score in the 60's with ease.

[madpebs]

i'd say yes, BUT with NEVER having played rough that the PGA is playing IF on off chance we all get in cabbage then we could card a bad score for hole or two. But 60,61,62 would be the norm i'd have to say

[DemolitionMan]

Net scores? Of course because everyone knows the typical four man scramble is FOS. The 2 with indexes of 5-10 really shoot 72-73, and the other two with 15+ indexes shoot 80. So net, they are about what?....a 59?

Seriously, with those indexes listed above playing best ball, playing by the rules, and no net scores, there is no f'g way they would survive on tour.

Typical 4 man scramble with those indexes can't putt to save their life. Add a little pressure with the PGA Tour and all that goes with it and the greens alone kill them. They would not even make the cut the majority of the time.

D.A. Points is on the bubble for conditional status at 150 on the money list and his scoring avg is just under par at 71.89.

Like I said, no f'g way the average 4 man scramble gets even close. They would probably be suspended anyway for breaking too many rules week in and week out.

[staff@thesandtrap.com]

DemolitionMan, on Jun 28 2006, 12:50 PM, said:

Like I said, no f'g way the average 4 man scramble gets even close. They would probablybe suspended anyway for breaking too many rules week in and week out.

I agree. Most scrambles are held at some pretty easy courses compared to your average PGA Tour stop.

Give a men's team a chance to scramble on the LPGA Tour and they could manage to keep their cards, I think, but on the PGA Tour, no way.

[housey]

Not a chance. I imagine the tour would be pretty gruelling. I think in the beginning they would go ok but as the loger into the season it would take it's toll. And if the swing went south, they would not be capable of getting it back. mt $0.02 worth.

[phillypete]

the pressure is the big thing... think about what the guys we all play with act like when a putt is worth a $5 swing in the bets... now imagine when a putt is worth his morage

[oldpalchamp]

I don't think 4 amatuers would have a chance playing courses where 460 yard par 4s are the norm. Also, in a scramble, everyone gets to place their ball within 1 clublength of the ball they are playing, so to be fair, you'd have to let the pros play lift, clean, and place, through the green. Courses set up for tour events play very fast and firm, which would probably be another problem for the scramble team. The big difference, though, is putting. The average tour player can putt lights out.

[jmc]

I also would think it might be difficult for the 4-person time. Especially at major events. The courses are so much longer that I think it would be tough.

[jva]

The only thing the fourman scramble would tear up at the pga tour, would be the snack bar!

[WhiteStripe]

It would be a joke, the 4-man scramble has no chance. You could take 4 supposively scratch golfers from your local club, and they couldn't make a cut. I'm no not talking about college stars trying to turn pro, but older guys who know their hole course very well but have a game that does not travel.

Anyone ever see the greenside rough at a PGA Tour event like the one at Torrey Pines, or the Memorial, or Colonial? It's brutal, your typical single index wouldn't know what to do to keep the ball anywhere in the vicinity of the hole.

[cowboynjungle1]

Not a chance.
Don't want to attack anyone but the question was asked. Some folks have a very high opinion of their own talent but I am certain if the handicaps are as specified and they play by the rules on the courses as they are setup on the PGA tour it would be very unlikely that they ever make a cut.
Like the ad says - These guys are good. Believe it.

[CowtownTexas]

WhiteStripe, on Jun 29 2006, 11:18 AM, said:

It would be a joke, the 4-man scramble has no chance. You could take 4 supposively scratch golfers from your local club, and they couldn't make a cut. I'm no not talking about college stars trying to turn pro, but older guys who know their hole course very well but have a game that does not travel.

Anyone ever see the greenside rough at a PGA Tour event like the one at Torrey Pines, or the Memorial, or Colonial? It's brutal, your typical single index wouldn't know what to do to keep the ball anywhere in the vicinity of the hole.

Funny that you mention Colonial. The PGA cuts the rough to almost nothing compared to what it is the rest of the year (dormant months aside). The course is set-up perfectly and the greens are in better shape that week then at any other time of the year. I would say the course plays an easy 2-3 strokes easier for the tour guys than it does for the membership just given the conditions, namely rough.

The PGA mandates that the rough be cut to 2 3/4 inches during the tournament, where as it gets to 4-5 inches alot of the time. The basic reasoning for this is the PGA likes birdies. If every Sunday you turned on the tube to see people backing up like they did at the Open, you'd be one of few watching.

I've played several PGA tour courses and haven't found them to be all that difficult. This is particularly true of the more modern courses, with large greens, wide fairways, and smallish trees. The "stadium" type courses, for the most part (I realize this is a huge generalization), are just easier to play in my opinion, but I'm a bit wild off the tee at times. The biggest difference between PGA type courses and the courses most people play on a daily basis is conditionig. You put those PGA guys on a course that looks like a goat patch and they'll struggle just like anyone else.

I still say that I could take myself and 3 of my regular golf partners, who all have TRUE indexes within the guidelines lifted above (we play everything down, putt everything out, and know the rules very well as we've got enough want-a-be rules officials, ie lawyers, who don't want to be cheated), and I am certain we'd not only make it on tour, we'd dominate. I would imagine the average score would be between 4 and 6 under per round which is better than any tour players scoring average. If let us take our 4 best scratch golfers, the result would be even more dominating.

[rustyputterguy]

Saying you'd dominate is a bit of an overstatement.
No, it's a lot of an overstatement.


The skills of 4 average golfers < The skills of a dominant PGA golfer.

Play those courses from the tips and you're in trouble. I can't imagine four golfers with the handicaps given would be able to consistantly get drives out to where you're hitting reasonable scoring clubs into the greens. If the four of you were hitting a lot of 6+ irons into the green the typical result probably wouldn't be as good as the pro's... 8 iron?
Take par 3's into consideration too. On a typical 180 yard par 3 how often will the scramble of average guys get it into scoring range?

Your 4 best golfers would be interesting though. You get 4 near scratch guys and you probably have enough talent there to:
1. Get drives in the fairway and out as far as the "average" tour drive
2. Hit at least one approach shot into scoring range
3. Make a lot of <15' putts

Four average golfers though, don't do anything consistant enough to dominate.

[jmc]

OK, I'm in. Someone pitch this to a TV network and let's do it.

[rustyputterguy]

That would be classic.
Have the scramble team go out on a regular tour event, but let them each have a cart and a 12 pack.
We're talking pay per view.

[CowtownTexas]

"What's happening out on 16 Gary?"

"Well, Bubba just peed behind that tree over there and the gallery standing on the other side didn't think real highly of it, particularly the lady sitting on the ground next to the tree. Jim Bob tried to tell Bubba to stop it because this is a fancy course, but Bubba just couldn't wait. Jethro and Jimmy Lee are hitting on the beer girl and haven't hit a shot in two holes. A rules official is on his way to try and help out. Back to you Lanny".

[rustyputterguy]

LOL

We're talking television gold here.

[CowtownTexas]

It'd be pure greatness if you let a few rednecks from the local muni's down here play.

A friend recently sponsered a golf tournament out in a small west Texas town and his ranch-hands decided to play as a group. One young kid, who rarely say's anything, and had probably never seen a golf course before was talked into playing.

He arrived at the course in his normal work-clothes: boots, Wranglers, big ole belt with a big old belt buckle, cowboy hat, and western shirt. Of course, it was around 100 that day and the kid got hot. A couple of the others started giving him a hard time about not wearing shorts in that heat and he said he didn't own any.

Well, next thing you know, he's gotten out his pocket knife and cut the legs off his jeans. He's probably 6'5" and might weigh 155 pounds. Just an absolute bean pole. The sight of this guy trying to hit a golf ball, in all his cowboy duds, with legs as white as his socks was really something to behold.

Let me put a team together and play for PGA money, and I'll make sure my entire team dresses in that exact uniform!!

Gosh, I sure am ready for this long weekend. Need to play golf rather than talk about it.

[cpa49707]

I would say that my group would kick some butt on the tour, I'm the worst in our group and In a 16 now, but I can chip and putt, if only i could keep it in the fairways and hit more greens I would drop real quick. Other members in our group and long ball hitters with deadly irons. When we play in a 4 man scramble we normally shoot 12-15 under

[CowtownTexas]

cpa49707, on Jun 30 2006, 06:52 AM, said:

I would say that my group would kick some butt on the tour, I'm the worst in our group and In a 16 now, but I can chip and putt, if only i could keep it in the fairways and hit more greens I would drop real quick. Other members in our group and long ball hitters with deadly irons. When we play in a 4 man scramble we normally shoot 12-15 under

That's kind of the way I was thinking too. Last fall, four of us from my office played in a scramble and shot -14 not using any trash (mulligans, strings, kicks, etc.). Now our handicaps are a bit below the parameters above as we had a 4, 9, 12, and 14 playing.

Of course, the biggest problems with scrambles is how many people cheat. The group behind us turned in the "winning" score and I never saw them hit a fairway off the tee.

[TheBUNKY]

Exactly, there is entirely too much cheating going on in scrambles. Especially when they only put one team per tee box. And I am as guilty as anyone on this. I've been in scrambles before where we would walk up to the green, hit our balls (the three of us that weren't closest to the hole) and if one of them went it, then we counted the score and went on.

We still didn't win, but we did play fast and drank more beer I think we ended up shooting a 9 under, seems like 12 won it. And on all of those greens where we did our little cheating tactic, only one of the balls found the cup. Still didn't matter though, cheating is cheating and we were completely in the wrong for doing so.

Back on topic, I am sure there are some teams out there that could keep their card if they played the same venue, with the same tees and the same stimp readings, but I don't think there would be that many. It all depends on the course setup. Set up Winged Foot and see how many break par there, then set up Colonial or Riviera or Pebble and do the same. It all depends on the set up and who is setting the course up IMHO.

[DemolitionMan]

Not trying to single anyone out, but in general the golf world is full of tons of people who think they are great driver, great iron players, great short game, or great putting. But what kind of course setup and pressure do they experience? Almost nothing.

Yes, the PGA players get the best of all worlds in course conditions, but this would not help much for the average player. Certain venues are birdie fests and I can see a scramble making a cut; Phoenix comes to mind. But most venues have narrow landing areas, thick rough, tucked pins, and no usual scramble comforts like beer, carts, GPS, trash talking, hot dogs, and the ocassional skirting of the rules.

Fun topic, but even a scramble of four single digits are dreaming if they think they could make a cut at a tough venue. Last year at Harding for example...forget it. When I played the AMEX championship setup last year with horrendous rough and long par 4's into the heavy air and wind, the foursome had plenty of game, we would be a deadly scramble at your typical hackfest, but just by gauging from our best score (not best ball), I remember we probably would have been 2 over on the front, and 2 under on the back. Playing it as a scramble, I don't see us doing much better...too many holes where par is a good score, you take it and move on.

[dfife]

I don't think a team would be able to keep there card. I think the difficulty of the courses and the quality of the pro's is at a level that would kill a scramble team. Take two of your par 5's at your home course and turn them into par 4's.

It would be an unbelievable reality show for the golf channel. I would sign up in a heartbeat.

In a few weeks the nationwide tour will hold a monday qualifier at the same course that a team I was on shot 11 under from the whites. I honestly don't even think that will hold up to make it into the event. Maybe I have to much respect for these guys abilities. It seems though in the few times that I have seen them (PGA and Nationwide) it's a different world all together as far as course set-up and level of play.

[CowtownTexas]

DemolitionMan, on Jun 30 2006, 12:52 PM, said:

Not trying to single anyone out, but in general the golf world is full of tons of people who think they are great driver, great iron players, great short game, or great putting. But what kind of course setup and pressure do they experience? Almost nothing.

Yes, the PGA players get the best of all worlds in course conditions, but this would not help much for the average player. Certain venues are birdie fests and I can see a scramble making a cut; Phoenix comes to mind. But most venues have narrow landing areas, thick rough, tucked pins, and no usual scramble comforts like beer, carts, GPS, trash talking, hot dogs, and the ocassional skirting of the rules.

Fun topic, but even a scramble of four single digits are dreaming if they think they could make a cut at a tough venue. Last year at Harding for example...forget it. When I played the AMEX championship setup last year with horrendous rough and long par 4's into the heavy air and wind, the foursome had plenty of game, we would be a deadly scramble at your typical hackfest, but just by gauging from our best score (not best ball), I remember we probably would have been 2 over on the front, and 2 under on the back. Playing it as a scramble, I don't see us doing much better...too many holes where par is a good score, you take it and move on.

I agree that it's a fun topic, but I'm still convinced that the foursome would dominate.

I will qualify my statement by adding that I play one of the tougher courses on the PGA Tour (based on average cut lines) almost daily, have played it with tour pro's, and feel like it would be no contest.

I'll give an example of why I feel this way. In two weeks we'll have a two day, member-member, two man scramble. My index is 10 and my partners is about 8.5, and we'll be in the 3rd or 4th flight. We'll need to shoot somewhere around 6-8 under for those two days to get in the money. And this is a true scramble: Normal rules of golf apply and both players must hit shots from within one-grip length of the original ball. Granted, we are playing the ball up, but a 4 man team would be as well.

Last year, I can't remember the winning score in the first flight, but do know that a pair of 5 handicaps shot -8 on one side.

Again, this is playing a true scramble, on a tough, tight golf course in conditions that aren't nearly as favorable as when the tour is in town (the bunkers aren't perfect, the greens aren't nearly as fast, the rough is deeper and more mature, it's much hotter being mid-July in Texas, etc).

For our tour event, the cut was at +1 (the lowest it's been in a while) and -12 won.

Maybe this topic will stay around a couple of weeks and I can remember to see what scores win this year.

[Texsport]

Absolutely no way!

Right off the bat, the scramble group couldn't hit it far enough off the tee on PGA courses to make any birdies---end of story!

Texsport

[CowtownTexas]

I've obviously had some pretty big opinions on this matter (given my amount of posts on this thread), but I'll get a pretty good idea this weekend.

I'm playing in a two day, two-man, scramble this weekend. My index is 9.1 and my partners is 8.7. We're a pretty interesting pair in that our games are polar opposite, while are scores are pretty similar.

I bomb it off the tee, have a fairly good short game, and am an above average putter. My only real mistakes are mental in that I just seem to have at least 2 blow-up holes per round, though I'm improving.

My partner is short.. really short. But, he hits the ball dead straight, rarely makes a mistake, and has a very good short game. Where I might shoot 35 on one side and 45 on the other, his game is a constant string of scores between 78-82.

Our home course is the longest constant venue on the PGA tour. We won't be playing the tips, so it's not a perfect study, but for me the tips versus the men's tees make maybe 2-3 strokes difference at most. If I'm on, I shoot about the same from both tees and if I'm off, it doesn't matter if you let me hit from the reds. The condition of the greens right now versus when the tour was in town might make all things pretty close to even (they were punched Monday and are slow and bumpy).

Anyway, I'll pay closer attention the scoring over the weekend and see what the results may be.

[rok78]

Texsport, on Jul 1 2006, 04:10 AM, said:

Absolutely no way!

Right off the bat, the scramble group couldn't hit it far enough off the tee on PGA courses to make any birdies---end of story!

Texsport

Exactly, most handicaps in that range don't have nearly the length to compete. Even with a scramble, on long par 3's and especially par 4's, it would be tough to score well enough to keep a tour card. I'm not saying for one glorious round a scramble wouldn't do well, but not consistently over the course of a season.

[jportz]

You guys are talking about no way because they couldn't hit it far enough off the tee but the difference maker is that you get 4 attempts around the greens and at every putt. Who cares if they're still 230 out on a par 4...one of them is going to get it close and then with 4 tries to get up and down they would "almost" always make par. I say that the scramble team above might not make a bunch of birdies but I doubt they would ever (or rarely) take a bogie. I've played in 4 man scrambles with a bunch of friends that are all single digit hc's and our goal is to shoot 20 under every tournament. We have done it once but feel disappointed if we only shoot 15 under.

The handicap range mentioned in the first post would easily be able to shoot 4 or 5 under at ANY course. We have 4 man teams with all 4 players in the double digit handicap range and they still shoot 8 under (on an easy course) but my point is that when you have 4 guys getting to putt....come on....always getting the read....you guys know how it is. You let the high handicappers hit first, get the read and then the 2 single digit guys get a chance at it. They would never 3 putt and if one of the first guys lags one close then the other guys can be aggressive which means they would make a few of the longer ones.

I agree that this is something we must see on TV......I would bet on the scramble team but it sure would be entertaining to watch.

Good post....let's put some pressure on ESPN to put it together.

[shoe295]

Interesting topic indeed! I don't think you'd see the scramble guys do that well. We're talking playing in front of people for real money against guys who can really play on greens that are slightly slower than the linoleum of a rental units kitchen floor. I'd say 2 of the guys start the day with their raisens in their throats and about the 3rd time the last to hit has a do or die shot his raisens join the others. What you wind up with is a bunch of amatuers who can barely breath talking in high squeaky voices, much less hit a 3/4 7 iron to a pin that's 9 paces from the edge of a green set right next to a lake. This would be great TV I agree but it would wind up scrambled toast.

[jportz]

Well I guess the bottom line would be the abilities of the players. Not all 5 handicappers are alike and not all 15 handicappers are alike.

Let me pick my scramble team and I'll be the guinea pig.....

[CowtownTexas]

After day one of our clubs two man scramble, I feel pretty certain that the scramble would dominate when it just comes to playing ability. The scores were pretty low with just two many teams and would only be magnified by 4 man teams.

The equalizer would be the mental side, but there's no way to judge that without actually doing it. We have players with PGA level talent in our club, but for whatever reason they haven't made it on tour (well, a few have, but they aren't the guys playing in a scramble this weekend and most aren't on tour anymore).

Even the two-man teams in the last flight (most handicaps 18 and above) were shooting near par gross. The guys in the championship flight (single digit guys) were going very low. Even in my flight (3rd), the leaders under par. If you were to make a team of two guys in my flight and two from the lower flights (similar to the qualifications in the initial post), they would shoot very, very low.

This is all being done at a course that typically has one of the 5 highest cut lines on tour. The typical cut is +2 or +3 every year with most winning scores being in the -10 to -13 range. I'd be surprised if the winners of the championship flight don't get in that range after just two days.

[CowtownTexas]

Okay, we finished our tournament. The two guys who won the flight with handicaps between 5 and 10 shot -13 for two days gross. The two who won the flight with handicaps of 15 and 17 shot 1 over for two days gross.

Let them all combine and the scores would definately drop on putts alone. The two lower handicapped guys hit the ball far enough that distance wouldn't be a problem on any course.

The mental side might make it tougher, but really only on the guy hitting last if the other three screwed up royally. Even then, it wouldn't be for more than a shot or two per day.

A scramble foursome would dominate across the board from what I've seen. It would definately make for a great off-season tv tournament. I'd imagine every hack in the country would tune in to see how it stacks up.

[mji009]

Bump.


Look for news of a PGA best ball amateur tourney where regional qualifiers will go against pros in a best ball format in 2007. Looks like we will get an answer to the OP's question next year.

[dukesweb]

There is no way that some of the 15-25 handicappers I play with could even help the team with more than 1-3 shots per round. Hell, these guys would not even get the ball on long par 4's to the fairway cut. The 15-25 handicappers you play with must be sandbagging it.

[CowtownTexas]

dukesweb, on Aug 16 2006, 01:53 PM, said:

There is no way that some of the 15-25 handicappers I play with could even help the team with more than 1-3 shots per round. Hell, these guys would not even get the ball on long par 4's to the fairway cut. The 15-25 handicappers you play with must be sandbagging it.

Based on some of their scores recently, the term "sand-bagging" definitely comes to mind. One of our "17" handicappers recently fired a nice little 79 at us for a net 62. Definitely raised some eye brows.

The best-ball tournament sounds interesting, but if it's gross I'd go with the PGA guys. A good bit more pressure in best-ball compared to a scramble.

[Raggedclaw23]

Really an interesting thread! I agree with many here who said that the foursome as stipulated (two <10, two 10>) doesn't stand a chance of surviving on tour. Putting and pressure would eat them up (and it would be very dangerous for the galleries!). Now, I think four sub-fives might do OK. There's a lot more consistency in that kind of game to start with.

I could definitely see a silly season event like this. Challenge the tour! You and your buddies take on the pros. 4 guys versus one pro. Every once in awhile the ams would catch a pro on a bad day.