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Elbow to navel


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#121 Jim Waldron

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostPingG10guy, on 22 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Ping -
The left upper arm internal rotation occurs during Transition. It is hard at this point to know if it stays there until just after impact or if it rotates externally just before and during impact. No way to tell from studying photos and videos. Maybe Tee knows the answer. My guess is that it probably depends on the pro golfer you are studying and what kind of shot shape they prefer to hit.

the internal rotation on Transition is just one way to do it. I have found in over 20 years of teaching that this move requires above average athletic ability to learn to do correctly and to the level of dominant habit. I don't see Stricker or O'Meara or Cook doing it and they all hit it great. I think to hit it as purely as possible and as long as possible, then it is a requrement. But - for average golfers, it is far easier to achieve just a little bit of shaft flattening from spine tilt. Doing anytrhing with the arms/wrists/hands on Transition for averge golfers tends to switch on their independent arm circuit and then it stays "on" during the rest of the downswing and ruins the shot

In any case Ping, I think it is much more important to not move the upper left arm laterally (abduction) to your left than to be concerned with internal rotation.  And many of my students do feel like the upper left arm "is going the other way" as you stated. Doing Nothing with the upper arms is such a radical concept that most of my students have trouble just getting their head around the concept when we first show them the Arm Swing Illusion material in our Great Shot! golf school.

Hope that clears things up a bit, this stuff is very difficult to explain/discuss in words.

I understood all of it.  The note of the independant arm circuit is funny.  That is why I think it is the hardest part of the swing to train.

What are your thoughts on upper lead arm motion in transition, and how it can inhibit the ability to tilt properly?

I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to here about affecting tilt. Can you provide an example?


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#122 PingG10guy

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 January 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

View PostPingG10guy, on 22 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Ping -
The left upper arm internal rotation occurs during Transition. It is hard at this point to know if it stays there until just after impact or if it rotates externally just before and during impact. No way to tell from studying photos and videos. Maybe Tee knows the answer. My guess is that it probably depends on the pro golfer you are studying and what kind of shot shape they prefer to hit.

the internal rotation on Transition is just one way to do it. I have found in over 20 years of teaching that this move requires above average athletic ability to learn to do correctly and to the level of dominant habit. I don't see Stricker or O'Meara or Cook doing it and they all hit it great. I think to hit it as purely as possible and as long as possible, then it is a requrement. But - for average golfers, it is far easier to achieve just a little bit of shaft flattening from spine tilt. Doing anytrhing with the arms/wrists/hands on Transition for averge golfers tends to switch on their independent arm circuit and then it stays "on" during the rest of the downswing and ruins the shot

In any case Ping, I think it is much more important to not move the upper left arm laterally (abduction) to your left than to be concerned with internal rotation.  And many of my students do feel like the upper left arm "is going the other way" as you stated. Doing Nothing with the upper arms is such a radical concept that most of my students have trouble just getting their head around the concept when we first show them the Arm Swing Illusion material in our Great Shot! golf school.

Hope that clears things up a bit, this stuff is very difficult to explain/discuss in words.

I understood all of it.  The note of the independant arm circuit is funny.  That is why I think it is the hardest part of the swing to train.

What are your thoughts on upper lead arm motion in transition, and how it can inhibit the ability to tilt properly?

I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to here about affecting tilt. Can you provide an example?

Sure.  As you mentioned before that you try to get average players to tilt in the downswing to flatten the shaft.  If Im used to having a bent left arm at impact because Im trying to save a swing from a stuck position, the the upper left arm would be slightly internal in rotation, but disconnected.  Do you think these bad armswing mechanics inhibit the body to turn and tilt at the correct rates in the downswing?

#123 Jim Waldron

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostPingG10guy, on 22 January 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 January 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

View PostPingG10guy, on 22 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Ping -
The left upper arm internal rotation occurs during Transition. It is hard at this point to know if it stays there until just after impact or if it rotates externally just before and during impact. No way to tell from studying photos and videos. Maybe Tee knows the answer. My guess is that it probably depends on the pro golfer you are studying and what kind of shot shape they prefer to hit.

the internal rotation on Transition is just one way to do it. I have found in over 20 years of teaching that this move requires above average athletic ability to learn to do correctly and to the level of dominant habit. I don't see Stricker or O'Meara or Cook doing it and they all hit it great. I think to hit it as purely as possible and as long as possible, then it is a requrement. But - for average golfers, it is far easier to achieve just a little bit of shaft flattening from spine tilt. Doing anytrhing with the arms/wrists/hands on Transition for averge golfers tends to switch on their independent arm circuit and then it stays "on" during the rest of the downswing and ruins the shot

In any case Ping, I think it is much more important to not move the upper left arm laterally (abduction) to your left than to be concerned with internal rotation.  And many of my students do feel like the upper left arm "is going the other way" as you stated. Doing Nothing with the upper arms is such a radical concept that most of my students have trouble just getting their head around the concept when we first show them the Arm Swing Illusion material in our Great Shot! golf school.

Hope that clears things up a bit, this stuff is very difficult to explain/discuss in words.

I understood all of it.  The note of the independant arm circuit is funny.  That is why I think it is the hardest part of the swing to train.

What are your thoughts on upper lead arm motion in transition, and how it can inhibit the ability to tilt properly?

I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to here about affecting tilt. Can you provide an example?

Sure.  As you mentioned before that you try to get average players to tilt in the downswing to flatten the shaft.  If Im used to having a bent left arm at impact because Im trying to save a swing from a stuck position, the the upper left arm would be slightly internal in rotation, but disconnected.  Do you think these bad armswing mechanics inhibit the body to turn and tilt at the correct rates in the downswing.

Yes, the arms in a poor position will always make the pivot suffer as well, including rotation and tilts. Some golfers are hurt more by their poor pivot as a separate and independent issue, even when their arms have been trained correctly, but if the arms have not been trained to behave, you simply cannot create an effective pivot. All the jigsaw puzzle pieces are inter-connected. I usually start with the arms problem first, if the student is at least "in the ballpark" with his or her pivot.

#124 guisician

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

Fantastic and informative thread, guys; thank you Jim and everyone!
modern: Royal Collection Tour VS
classic: Ben Hogan 1962 Power Thrust
hickory: Tad Moore Tom Morris 1930 Elect
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#125 Pinsplitter59

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:03 AM

i still don't understand this thread,
that's why i keep posting irrelevant pics to amuse myself.
was i that kid in school when he had no idea what the teacher was saying would start drawing cartoons in his book.
Among the "Great Mysteries of Golf" I have one that is definitely the most elusive.
Errr.. put it this way.
WHAT makes the arms work?
I actually posted about this question a while ago and as usual in my posts i got zero replies.
Really makes me feel like the dumb kid in the far back corner squeezing his pimples for fun.
I need to go slowly now ... sorry ...
Elements.
1. Sometimes my arms-hands-club just go WHOOSH straight through the ball really fast with no effort.
2. Mike Austin said the "7" stays the same for the whole backswing.
(the "7" is the angle of left arm to shoulder line at address).
3. How can this stay the same but have the right arm also folding and unfolding?
4. Austin advocated a consciuos and early unfolding of the right arm/wrist.
5. If one does not do it consciously or actively, WHAT makes the arms go whoosh?
6. Is there an ideal arms formation at the top that enables the arms to go whoosh?
7. Looking at the pic of Tiger 2000 and Hogan with angles my best guess, they seem to hardly change the "7" and seem almost identical.
Make me understand how that happens when the right arm is obviously doing something.
    A little test seems to say you have to keep the hands very wide and NOT have the left arm go     across the chest.

Ben_Hogan_Tiger_7angle.jpg

wish we had a view of Hogan from directly above, i have only got one of Tiger from above.
Maintaining the "7" angle and getting swoosh speed do seem counter-intuitive.
I even had a lesson from an Aus tour player who advocates quickly folding the arms across the chest with little shoulder rotation, apparently some well known Aus teacher teaches this.
That's a baseball swing i guess, maintaining the "7" is definitely NOT a baseball swing.
I mean that action that happens when you stand upright and turn your shoulders with the arms crossing over.
It does not happen like that in a golf swing i think, because the arms are not on the same plane as the shoulders.

Would I be right in thinking that at the top of Hogan's swing his right elbow was not "behind" his chest line?
That is, if you laid a stick across his chest it might hit his right elbow.
A little test seems to show to achieve this you need your forearms close together and your right elbow pointing down.
I have found myself that not "losing" the right elbow behind me makes getting the club back to the ball much easier.

It all makes me wonder if Hogan's (??) idea of the left arm being across the chest is not true as a physical fact but just another misleading feel thing.

That's all my brain can handle now.....
My next thought will be about the left knee,
practiced it last night and got a strained right knee!!
Abe Mitchell is the clue for this.

Sunny and warm again today here in Thailand.
Only problem I have is the ladyboy in the tight red dress across the road waving at me when I drive off to the range.

Hogan did of course ask to play with Austin at least once I have heard of.
I can't believe Hogan would not have picked his brains ot at least watched him very closely.
Slicefixer I think says something about this thing.


#126 guisician

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:54 AM

Pinsplitter,

I always enjoy your well-written posts.

Please take the following with a grain of salt size-appropriate to a 17-18 hcp golf nut.

I think the arms are literally what connects the whipper (shoulders turning around the core) to the whipee (the clubhead) and as such have a passive role at best. If they're too actively engaged in "trying to swing", too rigid from tension or limp as linguine, the result won't be what it should. When I set myself up with a nice one-piece takeaway for the first 12" (as if someone's pulling the clubhead from behind and my left shoulder has to follow down and back), set the wrists then get my right side fully over to the left through the ball while maintaining spine angle, the arms stay at about 3 out of 10 on the rigidity scale and just go along for the ride.

Sorry, that was a bit more than 2 cents...
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#127 PingG10guy

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:12 AM

While we got away from elbow to navel, I think Waldron gave us too much info lmao.

The 7 changes.  The right arm has to bend.

Flipping can make it go woosh.  Woosh is not measureable without video from proper angles

#128 tembolo1284

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:52 AM

How about a quick summary?
Wishon 919 THI 11* 0.5* Open
Wishon 929 HS 14.5*, 19*, 22* 0.5 Open
Wishon 775HS 25*, 29*
Wishon 6-PW MMC MB
Wishon 54, 59 Micro-Groove HM
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#129 ej002

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:48 AM

View Postguisician, on 22 January 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Fantastic and informative thread, guys; thank you Jim and everyone!
Right and someone will come along and say - "What is the fascination with Hogan?  I don't get it."

#130 Jim Waldron

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:33 PM

Pin - a lot of very good questions, and no easily and clearly explained answers. The problem is 2D illusions, the golf swing is full of them, when looking in person at a tour pro, or flat screen video or photos in a magazine or web forum. Our brain is hard-wired to only see in 2D when using those mediums, and most humans think visually in 2D. The beginning of your answers start with understanding that any body part under discussion is moving in three spatial dimensions: vertical or up and down relative to ground, width or away from or toward your body, and horizontal or toward or away from target (think a circle).
"
The "arms" have three parts: what the upper arm or humerous bone/shoulder joint is doing, what the right arm foldiing at the elbow is doing, and what the forearms are doing.

This discussion has mainly been about what the upper arms are doing relative to the body's mid-line.

The upper arms move themselves - primarily in the vertical and width dimensions - during the backswing, with some additional movement to the right of mid-line for a righty golfer during Takeaway. The "across the chest" that Hogam referenced is that last part, to right of mid-line, about a 45 degree angle of lead arm to chest by end of Takeaway. NOT the same angle 7 that Austin talked about as at Address. No pro golfer keeps that angle the same. The lead arm moves more to the right as it moves away from the body 8-12 inches in the width dimension during Takeaway. Second half of backswing the right elbow folds to about 75-90 degrees which raises both arms up toward the sky. Downswing this basically reverses, right elbow starts to straighten, and can be from muscular leverage of right triceps or from momentum of the Pivot (active vs passive). Upper arms return to contact with the  chest during Transition as well. The 45 degree angle of the arm to chest is mostly maintained (it does change a little but too technical to describe here). When hands get to about waist height, the shoulder girdle unwinds, and the arms move with that shoulder girdle unwinding at same RPM speed until just after impact.

The whoosh is from rapid uncoiling of shoulder girdle pulling the arms/hands and clubhead through, and from clubhead speeding up as wrist c0ck angle is released.

So - you want some independent arm motion on the backswing, and ZERO indepenndent arm motion on the forward swing. By "independent" I mean upper muscles moving the upper arms. Forearm rotation and right arm angle thrust are two totally different subjects.


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#131 borker

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:11 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

and ZERO indepenndent arm motion on the forward swing. By "independent" I mean upper muscles moving the upper arms.

So John Jacobs in Practical Golf was wrong about every good golfer has to have arm swing? I remember him saying to face any top golfer and watch the space between his right shoulder and hands during the downswing. "It widens like lightening". Is THIS part of the 2d illusion instructors from the past fell into?

http://books.google....al golf&f=false

{scroll up a tad}

Edited by borker, 30 January 2013 - 05:13 AM.

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#132 Jim Waldron

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postborker, on 30 January 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

and ZERO indepenndent arm motion on the forward swing. By "independent" I mean upper muscles moving the upper arms.

So John Jacobs in Practical Golf was wrong about every good golfer has to have arm swing? I remember him saying to face any top golfer and watch the space between his right shoulder and hands during the downswing. "It widens like lightening". Is THIS part of the 2d illusion instructors from the past fell into?

http://books.google....al golf&f=false

{scroll up a tad}

Not what I am talking about. That is simply right arm straightening on the downswing from a bent elbow position. I am talking upper arms where they connect to shoulder joint, no muscle-powered independent motion from that joint.

#133 MizunoJoe

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

View Postborker, on 30 January 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

and ZERO indepenndent arm motion on the forward swing. By "independent" I mean upper muscles moving the upper arms.

So John Jacobs in Practical Golf was wrong about every good golfer has to have arm swing? I remember him saying to face any top golfer and watch the space between his right shoulder and hands during the downswing. "It widens like lightening". Is THIS part of the 2d illusion instructors from the past fell into?

http://books.google....al golf&f=false

{scroll up a tad}

What he said that was wrong was that EVERY good golfer moves the hands away from the right shoulder from the top.  Many good ones transport the hands to a deep release point with the right shoulder(pivot).  Others, such as plane shifters, drop the hands away from the right shoulder from the top, but maintain wristcock to release point.  His book has caused untold numbers of readers to early extend the right arm.

#134 Jim Waldron

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

Well said, Joe - early right extension is a near universal flaw for high handicaps and that kind of mis-leading instruction only encourages that flaw.

#135 MizunoJoe

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Well said, Joe - early right extension is a near universal flaw for high handicaps and that kind of mis-leading instruction only encourages that flaw.

Jim - how do you exorcise this demon out of students?


#136 Jim Waldron

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostMizunoJoe, on 30 January 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Well said, Joe - early right extension is a near universal flaw for high handicaps and that kind of mis-leading instruction only encourages that flaw.

Jim - how do you exorcise this demon out of students?

A lot of it is Hit Impulse due to wrong understanding of how to apply power to the ball. And a lot of that is due to being "ball bound" - viewing ball as target.

When those two common mis-perceptions are present in the golfer's mind, especially subconscious, then the right tricep fires during Transition and opens up the right arm angle, ie "casting".

I am all about helping students to understand that power is applied on the forward swing by a very rapid and continuous un-coiling of the shoulder girdle, and impact just happens to occur during the middle of that un-coiling motion.

Right arm angle opening up just is something that should happen gently from Pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity during Transition, and only occurs in the vertical and width dimensions, NOT in the horizontal or the "toward the target" dimension.

When that "dimensional confusion" is resolved, the student will stop casting it away.

#137 MizunoJoe

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

A lot of it is Hit Impulse due to wrong understanding of how to apply power to the ball. And a lot of that is due to being "ball bound" - viewing ball as target.

When those two common mis-perceptions are present in the golfer's mind, especially subconscious, then the right tricep fires during Transition and opens up the right arm angle, ie "casting".

I am all about helping students to understand that power is applied on the forward swing by a very rapid and continuous un-coiling of the shoulder girdle, and impact just happens to occur during the middle of that un-coiling motion.

Right arm angle opening up just is something that should happen gently from Pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity during Transition, and only occurs in the vertical and width dimensions, NOT in the horizontal or the "toward the target" dimension.

When that "dimensional confusion" is resolved, the student will stop casting it away.

To that end, do you like the idea of using a device I saw Charles Howell using yrs ago at the Byron Nelson Classic - an elastic strap that keeps the upper right arm connected to the torso?

#138 Jim Waldron

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostMizunoJoe, on 30 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

A lot of it is Hit Impulse due to wrong understanding of how to apply power to the ball. And a lot of that is due to being "ball bound" - viewing ball as target.

When those two common mis-perceptions are present in the golfer's mind, especially subconscious, then the right tricep fires during Transition and opens up the right arm angle, ie "casting".

I am all about helping students to understand that power is applied on the forward swing by a very rapid and continuous un-coiling of the shoulder girdle, and impact just happens to occur during the middle of that un-coiling motion.

Right arm angle opening up just is something that should happen gently from Pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity during Transition, and only occurs in the vertical and width dimensions, NOT in the horizontal or the "toward the target" dimension.

When that "dimensional confusion" is resolved, the student will stop casting it away.

To that end, do you like the idea of using a device I saw Charles Howell using yrs ago at the Byron Nelson Classic - an elastic strap that keeps the upper right arm connected to the torso?

No, that aid is for a different issue, ie for connection and I prefer it more on the left arm than right. Right Angle aid works well for casting as it clicks as the arm angle opens up and you can hear it if you are casting it away too early.

#139 MizunoJoe

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:05 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

View PostMizunoJoe, on 30 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

A lot of it is Hit Impulse due to wrong understanding of how to apply power to the ball. And a lot of that is due to being "ball bound" - viewing ball as target.

When those two common mis-perceptions are present in the golfer's mind, especially subconscious, then the right tricep fires during Transition and opens up the right arm angle, ie "casting".

I am all about helping students to understand that power is applied on the forward swing by a very rapid and continuous un-coiling of the shoulder girdle, and impact just happens to occur during the middle of that un-coiling motion.

Right arm angle opening up just is something that should happen gently from Pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity during Transition, and only occurs in the vertical and width dimensions, NOT in the horizontal or the "toward the target" dimension.

When that "dimensional confusion" is resolved, the student will stop casting it away.

To that end, do you like the idea of using a device I saw Charles Howell using yrs ago at the Byron Nelson Classic - an elastic strap that keeps the upper right arm connected to the torso?

No, that aid is for a different issue, ie for connection and I prefer it more on the left arm than right. Right Angle aid works well for casting as it clicks as the arm angle opens up and you can hear it if you are casting it away too early.

Finally got back - they somehow accidentally reduced my post count below the magic 75 number and I was locked out of HHs till just now.

Anyway, the end I was referring to was the right arm extension in the vertical rather than horizontal dimension.  Seems to me that connecting the upper right arm to the torso would help in feeling that happen as a result of the shoulder momentum.  While locked out, I found the device - it's The Swing Link, and Howell was only tying down the right upper arm, although it's designed to tie down both arms.  And, yes, it's designed for connection work, but I don't think that's why Howell was using it - I believe he was ingraining the feeling of the right shoulder throwing the right forearm downward while maintaining wrist c0ck to a deep release position.

#140 Jim Waldron

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostMizunoJoe, on 31 January 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

View PostMizunoJoe, on 30 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 30 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

A lot of it is Hit Impulse due to wrong understanding of how to apply power to the ball. And a lot of that is due to being "ball bound" - viewing ball as target.

When those two common mis-perceptions are present in the golfer's mind, especially subconscious, then the right tricep fires during Transition and opens up the right arm angle, ie "casting".

I am all about helping students to understand that power is applied on the forward swing by a very rapid and continuous un-coiling of the shoulder girdle, and impact just happens to occur during the middle of that un-coiling motion.

Right arm angle opening up just is something that should happen gently from Pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity during Transition, and only occurs in the vertical and width dimensions, NOT in the horizontal or the "toward the target" dimension.

When that "dimensional confusion" is resolved, the student will stop casting it away.

To that end, do you like the idea of using a device I saw Charles Howell using yrs ago at the Byron Nelson Classic - an elastic strap that keeps the upper right arm connected to the torso?

No, that aid is for a different issue, ie for connection and I prefer it more on the left arm than right. Right Angle aid works well for casting as it clicks as the arm angle opens up and you can hear it if you are casting it away too early.

Finally got back - they somehow accidentally reduced my post count below the magic 75 number and I was locked out of HHs till just now.

Anyway, the end I was referring to was the right arm extension in the vertical rather than horizontal dimension.  Seems to me that connecting the upper right arm to the torso would help in feeling that happen as a result of the shoulder momentum.  While locked out, I found the device - it's The Swing Link, and Howell was only tying down the right upper arm, although it's designed to tie down both arms.  And, yes, it's designed for connection work, but I don't think that's why Howell was using it - I believe he was ingraining the feeling of the right shoulder throwing the right forearm downward while maintaining wrist c0ck to a deep release position.

Yeah, that makes sense that you could use SwingLink that way. I have one in my training aid box, but have not used it in years. Kind of hard to get on and off the student, and you really don't want constant connection to chest in the right arm anyway, only during Release.


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#141 tembolo1284

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:49 AM

another gem of a thread.
Wishon 919 THI 11* 0.5* Open
Wishon 929 HS 14.5*, 19*, 22* 0.5 Open
Wishon 775HS 25*, 29*
Wishon 6-PW MMC MB
Wishon 54, 59 Micro-Groove HM
All shafts are S2S Stepless Steel Wishon




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