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Elbow to navel


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#1 gvogel

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 11:26 PM

I figured out the last piece of the puzzle for me - left elbow to navel. I think that I heard this swing thought on this site - the Hogan site. I am deeply grateful to the poster for this idea.

I have been lowering my head and chicken winging it through impact for years, maybe for ever. I think that the chicken wing was my attempt to hold off the release to not hook the ball - but the real problem was that I never fully released the club through impact.

"Left elbow to navel" has enabled me to keep my left arm extended through impact, but, more importantly, has enabled me to keep the club accelerating through the impact zone.

I have a good grip, a decent backswing, good width in my backswing, and good balance. But, up until today, I've never felt the club swinging, and releasing, all the way through impact like I felt it today.

To whoever posted the "left elbow to navel" post, I owe you a debt of gratitude. Thanks!

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#2 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:52 AM

Ditto - I was over looking something pretty important in 5 lessons. This post exposed it.

#3 tembolo1284

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:07 AM

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by left elbow to navel?
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#4 dairic

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:08 AM

link to the post?

#5 tembolo1284

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

*Puts left elbow on belly button and doesn't get it*

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#6 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

yep i'll explain-

so I read one of teeace's old posts, he talked about how if hands get to the left side of the torso, the right arm has to straiten because simple geometry, vs. if the hands stay on right side of torso right arm can remain bent.

So difference in pre vs post secret hogan, right arm is bent longer, left elbow slams into torso post impact. Well, if you let hands get to left side of torso (past shirt buttons, whatever), you cant get left arm connection post impact (just like tiger currently when he hits driver). Vs if hands never get past mid section, right arm remains bent longer, and left arm connection through impact (interestingly, slicefixer said he though hogans secret was the left arm connection IIRC).

Also, this totally fits to the bob hope demonstration, and the description of the elbows working towards the hips in the swing.

I contrast this to my typical "handle dragging" style. Lots of lag and shaft lean into and through impact. Very different from post secret hogan style.

So simple way to boil this down? for me, the feel is don't let left elbow get past navel. I haven't hit balls yet, but needless to say IM PUMPED to experiment, especially given the 3 day weekend :).

#7 dairic

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

Thanks Tyler,

Left arm connection seems to do so many great things. I've noticed that if I'm hitting "pushy" and "thin" its because I'm losing my left arm connection, because like gvogel mentioned, it seems to keep the left arm straight through impact and also helps to supinate left wrist.

#8 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:38 AM

NP, I'm hoping we can get some other people to comment.

#9 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

BTW

View Posttylerdurden, on 18 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

yep i'll explain-

so I read one of teeace's old posts, he talked about how if hands get to the left side of the torso, the right arm has to straiten because simple geometry, vs. if the hands stay on right side of torso right arm can remain bent.

So difference in pre vs post secret hogan, right arm is bent longer, left elbow slams into torso post impact. Well, if you let hands get to left side of torso (past shirt buttons, whatever), you cant get left arm connection post impact (just like tiger currently when he hits driver). Vs if hands never get past mid section, right arm remains bent longer, and left arm connection through impact (interestingly, slicefixer said he though hogans secret was the left arm connection IIRC).

Also, this totally fits to the bob hope demonstration, and the description of the elbows working towards the hips in the swing.

I contrast this to my typical "handle dragging" style. Lots of lag and shaft lean into and through impact. Very different from post secret hogan style.

So simple way to boil this down? for me, the feel is don't let left elbow get past navel. I haven't hit balls yet, but needless to say IM PUMPED to experiment, especially given the 3 day weekend :).

BTW, IMO, I think this explains why Hogan has low left exit, bent right arm, limited shaft lean, and VERY high finish.

#10 dairic

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

View Posttylerdurden, on 18 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

BTW

View Posttylerdurden, on 18 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

yep i'll explain-

so I read one of teeace's old posts, he talked about how if hands get to the left side of the torso, the right arm has to straiten because simple geometry, vs. if the hands stay on right side of torso right arm can remain bent.

So difference in pre vs post secret hogan, right arm is bent longer, left elbow slams into torso post impact. Well, if you let hands get to left side of torso (past shirt buttons, whatever), you cant get left arm connection post impact (just like tiger currently when he hits driver). Vs if hands never get past mid section, right arm remains bent longer, and left arm connection through impact (interestingly, slicefixer said he though hogans secret was the left arm connection IIRC).

Also, this totally fits to the bob hope demonstration, and the description of the elbows working towards the hips in the swing.

I contrast this to my typical "handle dragging" style. Lots of lag and shaft lean into and through impact. Very different from post secret hogan style.

So simple way to boil this down? for me, the feel is don't let left elbow get past navel. I haven't hit balls yet, but needless to say IM PUMPED to experiment, especially given the 3 day weekend :).

BTW, IMO, I think this explains why Hogan has low left exit, bent right arm, limited shaft lean, and VERY high finish.

low left...I cringe lol

As long as the hips keeps thrusting forward through and beyond impact to get maximum extension then I agree with all of that.

Edited by dairic, 18 January 2013 - 12:32 PM.


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#11 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

yes I say low and left as a look, which I think everyone has to agree with, but not as a feel, which is certainly debatable.

#12 MizunoJoe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

View Posttylerdurden, on 18 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

...the feel is don't let left elbow get past navel.

This is a bad idea - instead of worrying about left elbow/naval, you should be trying to get both elbows past the ball as fast as possible with the pivot, like Hogan does here at :53



#13 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

Mj, thanks. I'd love to hear why it's bad idea though. Certainly possible. I haven't tried it yet.

#14 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

http://www.golfresea...es/frame_5.html

#15 MizunoJoe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

View Posttylerdurden, on 18 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Mj, thanks. I'd love to hear why it's bad idea though. Certainly possible. I haven't tried it yet.

Thinking about putting body parts in some relationship to each other on the DS, slows everything down, when you should be thinking about getting your arms through the ball as hard/fast as possible.  If you do that with a good pivot and the arms synced up, the correct elbow/naval relative positions will happen.


#16 Stryker

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

As russc would say, put a credit card deep in the left armpit and don't let it drop until well after impact.

#17 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostStryker, on 18 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

As russc would say, put a credit card deep in the left armpit and don't let it drop until well after impact.

Yep, I think it's easier to do that if elbow doesn't get so far forward

#18 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostMizunoJoe, on 18 January 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

View Posttylerdurden, on 18 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Mj, thanks. I'd love to hear why it's bad idea though. Certainly possible. I haven't tried it yet.

Thinking about putting body parts in some relationship to each other on the DS, slows everything down, when you should be thinking about getting your arms through the ball as hard/fast as possible.  If you do that with a good pivot and the arms synced up, the correct elbow/naval relative positions will happen.

I think it'd be nice if it was that easy but I have pretty aggressive arms so I dont know if that will work

#19 MizunoJoe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostStryker, on 18 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

As russc would say, put a credit card deep in the left armpit and don't let it drop until well after impact.

Well before impact at :20, Ben has already lost his American Express, Visa, and MC!



#20 Stryker

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

Are you sure that's not just the shadow of his arms creating the illusion of more space? Look at each frame leading up to :20.


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#21 tembolo1284

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:40 PM

yikes...I don't want to think of my arms or hands at all on the downswing...esp as they relate to my body.

Just turn it and bust it.
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#22 tembolo1284

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

I think not letting your hands get past your navel is a great way to get stuck and hit it real in to out and get pushy.
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#23 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

hmm...

this could definitely be a bad idea. I'll report back, I'm still hopeful though.

Tembolo - I don't want to think about them either. I think I have some bad habits though so I might need to temporarily.

#24 dairic

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

Your not going to get stuck if your arms are in front of you. I think this could be a good feel for someone who tends to let the arms outrace their body. Most people don't have the patience to allow their pivot to bring their arms in a position to hit.

#25 tembolo1284

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

View Postdairic, on 18 January 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Your not going to get stuck if your arms are in front of you. I think this could be a good feel for someone who tends to let the arms outrace their body. Most people don't have the patience to allow their pivot to bring their arms in a position to hit.

Yap, all depends on the chap's tendencies. If you have a good, hard pivot...I think holding your arms back is a bad idea. If you tend to be a flinger and have fast arms...then TD's idea might help to get the guy to be more rotational.

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#26 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

This is one of the key concepts in my model golf swing. I refer to it as "left arm to chest angle" or "arm lag" or "left arm to right of mid-line until after impact".  It is really the key to understanding the often confusing topic of "connection".  We need a better word than that, something that actually describes the key move, which does NOT require a lot of upper arm to pec pressure, but does require that the arm lag  angle be maintained until after Impact. The Arm Swing Illusion makes seeing this very difficult for most folks.

#27 MizunoJoe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

View PostStryker, on 18 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Are you sure that's not just the shadow of his arms creating the illusion of more space? Look at each frame leading up to :20.

Yes, I'm sure.  His left arm is connected at the start, and then disconnects, creating a gap coming down.

#28 tylerdurden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

View Posttembolo1284, on 18 January 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

View Postdairic, on 18 January 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Your not going to get stuck if your arms are in front of you. I think this could be a good feel for someone who tends to let the arms outrace their body. Most people don't have the patience to allow their pivot to bring their arms in a position to hit.

Yap, all depends on the chap's tendencies. If you have a good, hard pivot...I think holding your arms back is a bad idea. If you tend to be a flinger and have fast arms...then TD's idea might help to get the guy to be more rotational.

Yes, I think I am more of the flinger unfortunately :(

#29 ej002

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostMizunoJoe, on 18 January 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

View PostStryker, on 18 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Are you sure that's not just the shadow of his arms creating the illusion of more space? Look at each frame leading up to :20.

Yes, I'm sure.  His left arm is connected at the start, and then disconnects, creating a gap coming down.

I think the connection is deep and way up there, connection doesnt mean "plastered" against the torso.

#30 Stryker

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

View Postej002, on 18 January 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostMizunoJoe, on 18 January 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

View PostStryker, on 18 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Are you sure that's not just the shadow of his arms creating the illusion of more space? Look at each frame leading up to :20.

Yes, I'm sure.  His left arm is connected at the start, and then disconnects, creating a gap coming down.

I think the connection is deep and way up there, connection doesnt mean "plastered" against the torso.

I believe that is the way Geoff Jones describes the left arm connection as well.


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