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Why can't any instructor teaches Ernest Jones method nowadays?(merged)


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#31 avrag

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 05:41 PM

I really do not know what to think of this method after having read both Ernest Jones' and Manuel de la Torre's book (I found Jones's book better by the way).
"Swinging the club forward with your arms", the arms being defined as the the part from the shoulders to the elbows by de la Torre. Hmmmmmm. I have found that when I do the famous drill that Jones recommends with a weight on a string (pocket knife on a handkerchief), there is NO WAY to keep the string taut, unless you start the downswing with the lower body. So, the drill is excellent, and it really made me feel a "true swinging motion" for the first time, but the only way you can do it pretty much contradicts the swing theory behind it.
In my view, the best representation of some of Jones' teachings can be found in "How to Feel a Real Golf Swing" by Bob Toski and Davis Love jr. I really enjoyed that.


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#32 birly-shirly

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 06:49 PM

avrag  +1 on toski and love's book.

I can't say I had the same trouble that you had with the string drill though. were you by any chance swinging the weight too far? I think the drill begins to break down if you get the string close to or past horizontal.

#33 martinez

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:16 PM

View Postswing the clubhead!, on 07 February 2010 - 09:05 AM, said:

ha ha,great post martinez!
i believe that here lies the problem with the teaching of the swing by the majority of the golf industry.
when lance armstrong,albert contador,cadel evans first climbed on a bike when they were a kid .i bet they were not told by someone"to look at the front wheel".they just used their own natural instinct to climb on and pedal away!
i just feel that by breaking an athletic motion into small parts makes a task more difficult than it needs to be!
just my 2 centsPosted Image !
Well, the motion is as simple as that yes. But the point I was trying to make is that the 'game' is not that simple, you can tell people how simple it is and you'll get a lot of questions as to how is it that simple? That's when you 'will' need more than "Swing the Clubhead" to help them.....imo.

The majority of the teaching in the Golf industry is done by people who genuinely want to improve the golfing experience of others, some are better at it than others, but I can tell you now that there is a large percentage of people out there that need to know the how and why of it.......otherwise they can't play the game with any confidence.

Please bear in mind this is all coming from someone that wants to keep it as simple as possible.......

#34 hayam

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:25 PM

View Postmartinez, on 07 February 2010 - 08:16 PM, said:

View Postswing the clubhead!, on 07 February 2010 - 09:05 AM, said:

ha ha,great post martinez!
i believe that here lies the problem with the teaching of the swing by the majority of the golf industry.
when lance armstrong,albert contador,cadel evans first climbed on a bike when they were a kid .i bet they were not told by someone"to look at the front wheel".they just used their own natural instinct to climb on and pedal away!
i just feel that by breaking an athletic motion into small parts makes a task more difficult than it needs to be!
just my 2 centsPosted Image !
Well, the motion is as simple as that yes. But the point I was trying to make is that the 'game' is not that simple, you can tell people how simple it is and you'll get a lot of questions as to how is it that simple? That's when you 'will' need more than "Swing the Clubhead" to help them.....imo.

The majority of the teaching in the Golf industry is done by people who genuinely want to improve the golfing experience of others, some are better at it than others, but I can tell you now that there is a large percentage of people out there that need to know the how and why of it.......otherwise they can't play the game with any confidence.

Please bear in mind this is all coming from someone that wants to keep it as simple as possible.......
My sentiments too.

There is nothing easy about this hard game. just swing the head, just keep head still, dont look up. its so simple.

#35 martinez

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:43 PM

If it was truly that simple it would be boring. :)


#36 gvogel

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 10:22 PM

If you want to learn to "swing the club head" more consistently, I suggest that you investigate "Gravity Golf" by David Lee. The two approaches are like very close cousins. Gravity golf will get you to a solid, repeatable swing faster than swinging a pocket knife. And, your swing will be more dynamic.
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#37 joecu

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 05:43 PM

View PostPat du Golf, on 04 February 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

After spending $$$$,time and frustration for so long...... I finally discovered this afternoon that golf can be simple as just " swinging the clubhead" and the rest just fall in place. If it is not a business decision, why can't top instructors teach Mr. Ernest Jones technique? I am positive that many people won't be quitting the game ( frustration )....
By the way, I am not trashing today's instructors but there is a simple fun way to learn the game.

Your thoughts?

arnie frankel {sp} claims to be the only heir to the e,j, method left.  he is in florida somewhere.

#38 Alefty

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:39 AM

I haven't read Ernest Jones but I'll look into him. Some of the responses have reminded me of a few quotes. I'll go with Bruce Lee.

Quote

Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum.

It is simple at first, then as you learn a little you realize how complicated it is, finally you realize how simple it is. But there are no shortcuts.

#39 dap

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 04:53 AM

View Postmartinez, on 07 February 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

If it was truly that simple it would be boring. :)
Aint that the truth.

If you don't have good mechanics,just swinging the clubhead is not going to correct them.It might make you play a bit better because it will stop you swinging too hard and that's about it.

There is a reason why so many swing ideas and fads come and go.They don't last for most players and will never be a generic solution for all.

There are many alleged cancer "cures" claiming miracles that have surfaced over the years.Do you honestly believe that if any one of them truly worked for the majority that it would not have made headlines by now and become widespread mainstream?

#40 swing the clubhead!

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:28 AM

hey golf is the hardest game in the world!
no one agrees with that sentiment more than myself.
i just think that we over complicate things by filling our heads with mechanical thoughts and lose the feel of the swing.
would bobby jones have been a better player if he had learned"the x factor,the one plane swing ,stack and tilt,morad,etc?"
Posted Image




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#41 sky72

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:41 AM

If anyone is looking for  "simple", self-consistent, E. Jones based concepts, then look into Wild Bill Mehlhorn's techniques.  Bobby Shave has a WBM website and he will help explain WBM "method" (ie, rock-on-a-string, grass whip drill, etc).  PS Get the book & the tapes, you will not be disappointed!  sky72

#42 roll - gybe

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:20 PM

I totally disagree with the De La Torre and Ernest Jones approach.  Of course, there may be times when I need to just take it easy and swing the club head, or keep things simple, but that has nothing to do with learning.

I play often with a guy who is into the De La Torre stuff, and his swing sucks.  He is always working on something random, but "simple."  There is absolutely no plan there.  It's a constant search for the magic bullet du jour, and a lifetime of sucking at golf.

I think the simple approach to instruction is nothing but a predatory use of confirmation bias.  The student hears that they don't have to change anything, and that their natural swing will do the work, and they think that is just great!

Now, some instructors communicate effectively and target selective areas for improvement, but if that's not quite the same as just swinging the clubhead or keeping it symmetrical.  That's working on a much higher level.

Keeping it simple (aka: keeping the same crappy golf swing) can mean having more fun for some people, and that's great, but they are still going to suck at golf.

#43 dap

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:31 PM

Golf will always be just plain flat out difficult.It's the nature of the beast.

We are given the most difficult equipment to use in all of sports...a long shaft with a small head at the end of it with a tiny sweetspot and what's more,the sweetspot is not in line with the shaft like a baseball bat.There also happens to be 14 of them,all different.

We are also supposed to generate perhaps the greatest head speed of all sports.The ball also happens to be sitting on the ground just to make the margin for error even smaller.

And I haven't even gone into the illusions of the golf swing.Even Hogan said to make a perfect swing one must reverse every natural instinct to hit a golf ball.

#44 martinez

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:26 PM

View PostAlefty, on 10 February 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

I haven't read Ernest Jones but I'll look into him. Some of the responses have reminded me of a few quotes. I'll go with Bruce Lee.

Quote

Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum.

It is simple at first, then as you learn a little you realize how complicated it is, finally you realize how simple it is. But there are no shortcuts.

Wonderful.....sums it up perfectly. The key to playing good golf simplicity, the key to great Golf is mastery, you can't get to mastery without due diligence.

#45 jcpga63

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 09:45 PM

I am a PGA Professional and the thing I love the most about the job is teaching!  I have taught for over 20 years and I utiize video technology and am a proponent of club proper club fitting, but what I find myself doing is SIMPLIFING the swing and set up principles.  I think some players aren't happy unless they are totally confused and feel like they need to start over!


#46 Twoironblade

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:52 PM

When you really study the Ernest Jones approach, you will realize that there is nothing simple about it at all. What you are trying to do is create a true swinging motion with the clubhead and let the body respond. Ernest Jones, Manuel de la Torre, Arnie Frankel, etc. never claim that creating a true swinging motion is simple. In fact, it requires so much focus that adding in other swing thoughts is likely to mess it up.

I'll repeat from an earlier post. Go to any pro event and watch players on the range. Then go to any other driving range and watch players swing. The difference between a true swinging motion and everything else will be quite easy to see.

#47 martinez

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:15 AM

I just want to clarify something, I like the method, I just think as an instructor, I need more knowledge of the how.....because I'm going to get asked....people want to know.

#48 Twoironblade

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:14 AM

Anyone who wants to learn more about Ernest Jones should take a look at Arnie Frankel's material. He has a DVD and book that stays true to Ernest Jones, but talks about the concepts in a more contemporary way. I've studied Ernest Jones, Arnie Frankel, Manuel de la Torre, Toski & Love, and yes even Jim Flick. It helps to have the perspective of each, but if I had to have only one source to rely on it would be Frankel.



#49 hayam

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:14 AM

View Postdap, on 10 February 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

View Postmartinez, on 07 February 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

If it was truly that simple it would be boring. :)
Aint that the truth.

If you don't have good mechanics,just swinging the clubhead is not going to correct them.It might make you play a bit better because it will stop you swinging too hard and that's about it.

There is a reason why so many swing ideas and fads come and go.They don't last for most players and will never be a generic solution for all.

There are many alleged cancer "cures" claiming miracles that have surfaced over the years.Do you honestly believe that if any one of them truly worked for the majority that it would not have made headlines by now and become widespread mainstream?


great post.

golf can become hard if trying to pigeonhole someone to a concept. sometime self learn natural swing can turn out to be the best

#50 birly-shirly

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 06:47 PM

View Postroll - gybe, on 10 February 2010 - 12:20 PM, said:

I totally disagree with the De La Torre and Ernest Jones approach.  Of course, there may be times when I need to just take it easy and swing the club head, or keep things simple, but that has nothing to do with learning.

I play often with a guy who is into the De La Torre stuff, and his swing sucks.  He is always working on something random, but "simple."  There is absolutely no plan there.  It's a constant search for the magic bullet du jour, and a lifetime of sucking at golf.

I think the simple approach to instruction is nothing but a predatory use of confirmation bias.  The student hears that they don't have to change anything, and that their natural swing will do the work, and they think that is just great!

Now, some instructors communicate effectively and target selective areas for improvement, but if that's not quite the same as just swinging the clubhead or keeping it symmetrical.  That's working on a much higher level.

Keeping it simple (aka: keeping the same crappy golf swing) can mean having more fun for some people, and that's great, but they are still going to suck at golf.


I know what you think you're saying, but isn't finding one de la Torre reader with a crappy swing just another confirmation bias?

As I see it, anyone who really gets on top of the swing that de la Torre teaches should have a golf swing that (in no particular order)

(a) does not flip;
(b) develops enough clubhead speed to play the course - maybe not enough to plunder the par 5s or putt for eagles, but enough to play for GiR;
© delivers the clubhead into impact consistently on line; and
(d) stays in balance.

I'm not saying this is enough for everyone. My guess is that at either end of the spectrum, there are golfers who need something a bit more bespoke. Maybe you play at such a high level that you need a bit more from your swing. Or maybe you're struggling to make the basic component movements of a swing, in which case I'd argue that the instruction you need is more akin to physiotherapy than a golf lesson. But my guess is that the majority of what could be called average golfers would gain more than they lose from mastering the simple fundamentals that de la Torre teaches.

That said, what's simple isn't necessarily easy.



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#51 roll - gybe

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 08:18 PM

I like your point about what isn't simple isn't necessarily easy.

As for my own confirmation bias, I never heard of De la Torre before my friend told me about him and showed me a book.  Now maybe the deal is, he misinterpreted simple as being easy, and maybe I am guilty of generalizing.

However, I see the result and it's the constant search for a magic bullet.  But like said, small sample size.

#52 golfpros1

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 12:32 AM

the club is what hits the ball... if ITS doing the right things, the body will take care of itself.  it's amazing more people don't get this concept.

#53 hoganfan924

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 11:13 AM

View Postswing the clubhead!, on 07 February 2010 - 09:05 AM, said:

ha ha,great post martinez!
i believe that here lies the problem with the teaching of the swing by the majority of the golf industry.
when lance armstrong,albert contador,cadel evans first climbed on a bike when they were a kid .i bet they were not told by someone"to look at the front wheel".they just used their own natural instinct to climb on and pedal away!
i just feel that by breaking an athletic motion into small parts makes a task more difficult than it needs to be!
just my 2 centsPosted Image !

Funny how much time Lance spends in a wind tunnel so that he can get into the most aerodynamically efficient posture and how he gets measured with force plates and changes his pedal stroke to improve his pedaling efficiency, but hey, ANYONE can ride a bike!

http://video.bicycli...in-the-Wind-Tun
http://www.powercranks.com/Lance.html

So just keep "swinging that clubhead!"

#54 ppjn348

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:16 AM

View Postmartinez, on 07 February 2010 - 08:22 AM, said:

View Postswing the clubhead!, on 07 February 2010 - 06:11 AM, said:

we as human beings are intuitive and like to break things down and find out how things work !
as a civilisation its why we invented things like planes,trains,automobiles.
but for an athletic motion like the golf swing to break it down and take it to pieces only hinders the learning process.
think about it....do you work on your wrist **** when cleaning your teeth!
do you monitor your posture when riding a bicycle!
do you concentrate on holding your lag when you hit a nail with a hammer!
in my humble opinion simplicity is genius!
keep swingin!

This is not a criticism of the Ernest Jones method....or in fact simplicity........but try riding a bike while looking at the front wheel and you'll begin to understand what it feels like for most people to play Golf.


Priceless quote from Martin Ayers...

#55 Legend McSniff

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:26 AM

View Postspilbellman, on 07 February 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

In all seriousness, Ernest Jones seems to make the most sense of anybody IMO. We have taken a physical motion and broken it down into intellectual pieces. The swing needs to be looked at as a complete motion. one of the problems with learning this motion (swing) is that a number of people approach things from an analytical standpoint. Posted Image In other words "right-brained" or is it left? Anyway it is the side of the brain that analyzes the scientific approach rather than the feel approach. Mr. Jones seems to approch things from the feel side. I truly believe that the artist approach is better than the scientific. When teaching golfers, I always tried to get a new student to envision a perfect finish position and then without alot of thinking, swing to the perfect finish. Look at how great some players were until they started thinking about things ( Seve) . A pure feel player that lost his way and couldn't get it back. Ian Baker-Finch. How many times haqve we been told to "get out of our own way"? That simply means stop thinking about motion and just let the motion happen. easier said than done for most of us. I haven't read Ernest Jones, but this post will make me find a copy. Mr Austin(Pro at Merion) would stop in from time to time, and expound on Mr. Jones theory, but I think I was too dense to realize what he was saying. Either that or I was a 28  year old believing that I knew better. Imagine that!

BILL


Reminds me of the story of a student who turned up for a lesson and stated he didnt like his swing, the pro asked him how he would like to swing, so the student showed him. The pro asked him to show him again and started to put a ball down before every swing, sure enough he creamed everyone straight down the middle. Astonished at his sudden improvement he asked the pro which was his real swing......... the pro replied..... you choose.............


#56 jak_bot

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 11:09 AM

View PostPat du Golf, on 04 February 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

After spending $$,time and frustration for so long...... I finally discovered this afternoon that golf can be simple as just " swinging the clubhead" and the rest just fall in place. If it is not a business decision, why can't top instructors teach Mr. Ernest Jones technique? I am positive that many people won't be quitting the game ( frustration )....
By the way, I am not trashing today's instructors but there is a simple fun way to learn the game.

Your thoughts?

Pat du Golf,

You answered your own question with what you typed between  "spending" and "time".

#57 John Novosel

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:15 AM

Hey Pat,

[size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"]Ernest Jones put it the best:[/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"]"learning by feel is the only way to learn the swing so that you will make steady and permanent progress as a golfer.[/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"]No one else, not even the finest teacher in the world can learn the feel of the swing for you. Only you can do that."[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]



If you want the easiest, fun and simplest way to learn (experience-feel) the swing, here it is:

[size="3"][size="2"]<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vDnNShaMFn0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

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[/size][size="2"][size="2"]
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#58 510davidt

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

If you want to take golf lessons from a great teacher whose mentor was Ernest Jones try Woody Wright at Lake Merced Golf Club in San Francisco. He has adapted Jone's technique and it is simple and repeatable. Truly an unbeleivable teacher.

#59 The Pearl

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:42 PM

I am a 7 index, have been playing all my life, much more serious over the last 5 years.   I stumbled upon Manuel's book and methodology and eventually, at the prodding from WRX JustSteve, I flew to Milwaukee and took 3 lessons from Manuel.

Many of the comments in this thread are a misleading regarding his philosophy and  methods.

#60 The Pearl

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:53 PM

View Postglcoach, on 05 February 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

Sounds great, but what happens when you get in a slump or start getting under plane or swinging too far to the right?  See, that is the problem, telling someone over and over to just swing that clubhead. Yeah, but how?

No one was ever good just doing this. Somewhere along the line some work had to be done to figure out how that person should "swing the clubhead". I agree that at the end of the day that should be the goal, but you have to figure out how first.

BTW, tgm is not position based, all it does is classify components and the goal is the right "feel".

Demanding something be simple doesn't make it so, a lot of times simplicity leads to more complicated problems because there is not a base of knowledge that allows the individual to know what makes the ball do what it does

Successful golf is controlling the clubface, not controlling the path, which is the biggest issue I see with STC guys. They just keep demanding simplicity and get more and more confused.

De Le Torre clearly addresses swing plane and swinging right in his book and in his instruction.   He also never claimed that golf was simple.  As far "what makes the ball do what it does", Manuel address all ball flight rules in his book.  I believe Carol Mann said that they are the most complete ball flight rules ever put to print.


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