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Why can't any instructor teaches Ernest Jones method nowadays?(merged)


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#1 Pat du Golf

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:06 PM

After spending $$$$,time and frustration for so long...... I finally discovered this afternoon that golf can be simple as just " swinging the clubhead" and the rest just fall in place. If it is not a business decision, why can't top instructors teach Mr. Ernest Jones technique? I am positive that many people won't be quitting the game ( frustration )....
By the way, I am not trashing today's instructors but there is a simple fun way to learn the game.

Your thoughts?


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#2 tigerphan

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:38 PM

mordern golf is too many words of pointlessness mostly , golfs a simple game, made hard by us

#3 farmer

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 12:50 PM

I have read Ernest Jones and I agree that it is a very simple concept.  One thing I have noticed here and on other sites is the fixation on positions in the swing.  Part of this comes from books like TGM and some comes from technology that allows stop action analysis.  Hogan in particular is subject to this kind of stuff.  I don't think he built his swing trying to get to one position or another, they occurred as a result of the overall swing.

#4 Pat du Golf

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 01:46 PM

Amen!

#5 birly-shirly

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 06:17 PM

Have you looked at Manuel de la Torre? If not, you definitely should.

I like the simplicity. I also like John Jacobs' stuff and lots else. But I think that one of the hardest things in golf is to stick with basic teaching when there's the temptation of complexity to get you either out of a slump or up to the next level. Not everyone is ready to just pile more work into mastering what they already "know" but have only half-mastered.

Do come back in 6 months and post whether or not you've stuck with just swinging the clubhead. Or maybe the whole club, if you read M de la Torre.


#6 elrey23

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 06:24 PM

View Postfarmer, on 05 February 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have read Ernest Jones and I agree that it is a very simple concept. One thing I have noticed here and on other sites is the fixation on positions in the swing. Part of this comes from books like TGM and some comes from technology that allows stop action analysis. Hogan in particular is subject to this kind of stuff. I don't think he built his swing trying to get to one position or another, they occurred as a result of the overall swing.

Couldn't agree more. I've read through some of the threads in here and I honestly don't know how people play golf with all that crap in their head.

#7 Cloran

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 07:10 PM

View Postelrey23, on 05 February 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:

View Postfarmer, on 05 February 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have read Ernest Jones and I agree that it is a very simple concept. One thing I have noticed here and on other sites is the fixation on positions in the swing. Part of this comes from books like TGM and some comes from technology that allows stop action analysis. Hogan in particular is subject to this kind of stuff. I don't think he built his swing trying to get to one position or another, they occurred as a result of the overall swing.

Couldn't agree more. I've read through some of the threads in here and I honestly don't know how people play golf with all that crap in their head.

I swear to God your talking about me, lol!!! :D

I can easily change between 6 or 7 different swings in one range session... I'm a mess.

(I did start with Lag Erickson a few weeks ago though... a step in the right direction!)

#8 elrey23

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 07:30 PM

View PostCloran, on 05 February 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

View Postelrey23, on 05 February 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:

View Postfarmer, on 05 February 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have read Ernest Jones and I agree that it is a very simple concept. One thing I have noticed here and on other sites is the fixation on positions in the swing. Part of this comes from books like TGM and some comes from technology that allows stop action analysis. Hogan in particular is subject to this kind of stuff. I don't think he built his swing trying to get to one position or another, they occurred as a result of the overall swing.

Couldn't agree more. I've read through some of the threads in here and I honestly don't know how people play golf with all that crap in their head.

I swear to God your talking about me, lol!!! :D

I can easily change between 6 or 7 different swings in one range session... I'm a mess.

(I did start with Lag Erickson a few weeks ago though... a step in the right direction!)

I know what you're talking about. I battled the thoughts for years and didn't have a good time playing golf. I quit with all the swing thoughts and now I just play. I'm not saying that it works all the time but I've shot the best scores of my life since I quit with all the analyzing and just concentrated on the target. I don't think about hitting the ball I just think about the ball flying towards the target.

#9 Kevin SHields

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 08:00 PM

I know some real good teachers who can make it that simple.

#10 Dariusz J.

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 08:08 PM

A better question is why the average HCP does not drop down if the instructors around the world are wiser ?

Cheers

P.s. think about it.


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#11 IH82BOGEY

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 08:32 PM

I cant agree.  I dont know anyone who can play really well without having done significant work at some point on their game.

I have to work on it to play well.  But to me the work is fun.  I experiment often on the range and in my garage and living room for that matter.  Lots of thoughts.  Lots of different ways to do it.  Not jumping from one thing to another, just getting better.  

However, when I play the game, the work is over.  I am not overly burdened by any swing thoughts.  The reason is I already know pretty close where the ball is going.  I am far from perfect but if I had a really significant swing problem while playing I would be shocked and that would not be fun.

#12 gvogel

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:08 PM

View PostPat du Golf, on 04 February 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

After spending $$,time and frustration for so long...... I finally discovered this afternoon that golf can be simple as just " swinging the clubhead" and the rest just fall in place. If it is not a business decision, why can't top instructors teach Mr. Ernest Jones technique? I am positive that many people won't be quitting the game ( frustration )....
By the way, I am not trashing today's instructors but there is a simple fun way to learn the game.

Your thoughts?

I think that a guy named Leslie King taught about the same thing in the '60's.

Also, for simple, take a look at the Nicklaus principles in the latest version of Golf Digest. A few little things to practice and you are sure to get better.
Practice with AP2's,
play with AP1's

#13 Pat du Golf

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:46 PM

GREAT FEEDBACK!!!!!!!!

#14 Cloran

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 10:09 PM

View Postelrey23, on 05 February 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

View PostCloran, on 05 February 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

View Postelrey23, on 05 February 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:

View Postfarmer, on 05 February 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have read Ernest Jones and I agree that it is a very simple concept. One thing I have noticed here and on other sites is the fixation on positions in the swing. Part of this comes from books like TGM and some comes from technology that allows stop action analysis. Hogan in particular is subject to this kind of stuff. I don't think he built his swing trying to get to one position or another, they occurred as a result of the overall swing.

Couldn't agree more. I've read through some of the threads in here and I honestly don't know how people play golf with all that crap in their head.

I swear to God your talking about me, lol!!! :D

I can easily change between 6 or 7 different swings in one range session... I'm a mess.

(I did start with Lag Erickson a few weeks ago though... a step in the right direction!)

I know what you're talking about. I battled the thoughts for years and didn't have a good time playing golf. I quit with all the swing thoughts and now I just play. I'm not saying that it works all the time but I've shot the best scores of my life since I quit with all the analyzing and just concentrated on the target. I don't think about hitting the ball I just think about the ball flying towards the target.

So you're a recovering swing-a-holic, too?!

Lag's instruction is all module based, and each module is a "drill" (for lack of a better term) and they build upon each other... until you have a sound, repeatable swing. Because of this setup you're not actually working on a full swing until much later in the modules, making it easier to just let go on the course.
When you're on the course the only thing Lag wants you working on is having fun and focusing on the target. The best of both worlds really.

#15 glcoach

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 10:50 PM

Sounds great, but what happens when you get in a slump or start getting under plane or swinging too far to the right?  See, that is the problem, telling someone over and over to just swing that clubhead. Yeah, but how?

No one was ever good just doing this. Somewhere along the line some work had to be done to figure out how that person should "swing the clubhead". I agree that at the end of the day that should be the goal, but you have to figure out how first.

BTW, tgm is not position based, all it does is classify components and the goal is the right "feel".

Demanding something be simple doesn't make it so, a lot of times simplicity leads to more complicated problems because there is not a base of knowledge that allows the individual to know what makes the ball do what it does

Successful golf is controlling the clubface, not controlling the path, which is the biggest issue I see with STC guys. They just keep demanding simplicity and get more and more confused.


#16 hayam

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 04:07 AM

Yup gl coach , good one bout face , post hogan era instruction ask player to roll thru the wrist thru the ball , hook becomes a huge part of a better golfer equations .. Swinging too far right too much tilt , contradicting pieces of golf instructions . Hogan swing is bookish and he found a way to unhook. But is it possible if someone find out a better way to control the face and the swing becomes far less complicated? The culprid might just be the hogan bible , a fashion , he made something imperfect perfect .. But generAl golfdom do not have the kind of comitment like him ...
Maybe the perfect swing to learn belongs to Jack Nicklaus who did everrything "wrong" , have u heard Jack nickaus tinker with his swing? Or could not control his swing anypart of his career? D plane friendly swing which btw drop and turn relaxing like earnest

square and square , not pronate suprination hogan, even reverse of what hogan did is good , my 2 cents.

Edited by hayam, 06 February 2010 - 04:18 AM.


#17 Kevin SHields

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 07:20 AM

View Postglcoach, on 05 February 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

Sounds great, but what happens when you get in a slump or start getting under plane or swinging too far to the right?  See, that is the problem, telling someone over and over to just swing that clubhead. Yeah, but how?

No one was ever good just doing this. Somewhere along the line some work had to be done to figure out how that person should "swing the clubhead". I agree that at the end of the day that should be the goal, but you have to figure out how first.

BTW, tgm is not position based, all it does is classify components and the goal is the right "feel".

Demanding something be simple doesn't make it so, a lot of times simplicity leads to more complicated problems because there is not a base of knowledge that allows the individual to know what makes the ball do what it does

Successful golf is controlling the clubface, not controlling the path, which is the biggest issue I see with STC guys. They just keep demanding simplicity and get more and more confused.

Dont agree 100% but this is a good post

#18 gvogel

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 09:30 AM

View Posthayam, on 06 February 2010 - 04:07 AM, said:

Yup gl coach , good one bout face , post hogan era instruction ask player to roll thru the wrist thru the ball , hook becomes a huge part of a better golfer equations .. Swinging too far right too much tilt , contradicting pieces of golf instructions . Hogan swing is bookish and he found a way to unhook. But is it possible if someone find out a better way to control the face and the swing becomes far less complicated? The culprid might just be the hogan bible , a fashion , he made something imperfect perfect .. But generAl golfdom do not have the kind of comitment like him ...
Maybe the perfect swing to learn belongs to Jack Nicklaus who did everrything "wrong" , have u heard Jack nickaus tinker with his swing? Or could not control his swing anypart of his career? D plane friendly swing which btw drop and turn relaxing like earnest

square and square , not pronate suprination hogan, even reverse of what hogan did is good , my 2 cents.

Jack did pretty much everything right, IMO. His flying elbow wasn't really that "flying", like Eamon D'Arcy.

If you accept the premise that Hogan found a swing for Hogan, then you can also accept the premise that Nelson found a swing for Nelson. Some guys picked up on what Nelson was doing; one was Jack Grout, who taught a young Nicklaus to swing hard, get his hands high, and keep his head still. And some other things as well.

Even though I keep reading "5 Lessons" and other commentary about Hogan, my Bible is Nelson's "Shape Your Swing the Modern Way." With the exception that Byron was turning through the ball a lot more than he thought, there is so much in that book that is applicable to players without Hogan's exceptional wrist action. But, Nelson's book keeps it pretty simple, as wll.
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#19 Pat du Golf

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 09:58 AM

Do you believe that teachers want to make it difficult so students can come back ( $$$$ )? I don't intend to offend any teacher out there. Just curious!

#20 iteachgolf

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 11:32 AM

View PostPat du Golf, on 06 February 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Do you believe that teachers want to make it difficult so students can come back ( $$$$ )? I don't intend to offend any teacher out there. Just curious!
Not a chance.  I don't believe there is anyone who has been in the industry for any length of time that could do this on purpose.  Money comes from referrals so the better they get the faster they get the more money you make.


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#21 dap

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 11:59 AM

Golf will always be a hard game regardless of any new fads that come and go,simple as that.

Just swing the golf club,buying new clubs,new swing thoughts,a brand new swing method,etc,etc can often improve ones game temporarily but more often than not,the rot will soon set in again and then it's back to the drawing board.

#22 spilbellman

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 12:05 PM

Pat-

As an aside on Ernest Jones-Stick with me here.

1. Fred Austin was the golf pro at Merion for many years in the 1950's and 60's.
2. He Married Ernest Jones Daughter. Ernest Jones said "swing the clubhead."
3. Eddie Merrins was an assistant pro at Merion under Mr. Austin
4. Eddie Merrins wrote the book "Swing the Handle-Not the clubhead."

GO FIGURE:man_in_love::man_in_love:

#23 Pat du Golf

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 03:18 PM

lol.....so who is right then?

#24 spilbellman

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 08:49 PM

Pat-

Dats de ting about de swing - THEY BOTH ARE-Ain't it a beautiful world?


BillPosted Image



#25 Twoironblade

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 11:39 PM

Go to a PGA tour event and watch players on the range. Watch them hit short game shots. Then go out on the course and watch them play. They all do what Ernest Jones writes about - swing the clubhead. If they didn't, they wouldn't be out on the tour. As players advance to higher levels, they may be able to flatten their plane, steepen their plane, or whatever. But, even with those changes, they are still swinging the clubhead.

Now go watch average players on the range. You'll see a whole lot less "swinging the clubhead" as defined by Ernest Jones.

I hope others are able to describe in their own words the issue I'm trying to get across.


#26 swing the clubhead!

swing the clubhead!

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 06:11 AM

we as human beings are intuitive and like to break things down and find out how things work !
as a civilisation its why we invented things like planes,trains,automobiles.
but for an athletic motion like the golf swing to break it down and take it to pieces only hinders the learning process.
think about it....do you work on your wrist **** when cleaning your teeth!
do you monitor your posture when riding a bicycle!
do you concentrate on holding your lag when you hit a nail with a hammer!
in my humble opinion simplicity is genius!
keep swingin!

Edited by swing the clubhead!, 07 February 2010 - 07:28 AM.


#27 martinez

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 08:22 AM

View Postswing the clubhead!, on 07 February 2010 - 06:11 AM, said:

we as human beings are intuitive and like to break things down and find out how things work !
as a civilisation its why we invented things like planes,trains,automobiles.
but for an athletic motion like the golf swing to break it down and take it to pieces only hinders the learning process.
think about it....do you work on your wrist **** when cleaning your teeth!
do you monitor your posture when riding a bicycle!
do you concentrate on holding your lag when you hit a nail with a hammer!
in my humble opinion simplicity is genius!
keep swingin!

This is not a criticism of the Ernest Jones method....or in fact simplicity........but try riding a bike while looking at the front wheel and you'll begin to understand what it feels like for most people to play Golf.

#28 swing the clubhead!

swing the clubhead!

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:05 AM

ha ha,great post martinez!
i believe that here lies the problem with the teaching of the swing by the majority of the golf industry.
when lance armstrong,albert contador,cadel evans first climbed on a bike when they were a kid .i bet they were not told by someone"to look at the front wheel".they just used their own natural instinct to climb on and pedal away!
i just feel that by breaking an athletic motion into small parts makes a task more difficult than it needs to be!
just my 2 centsPosted Image !

#29 Pat du Golf

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:16 AM

can't agree more

#30 spilbellman

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:45 AM

In all seriousness, Ernest Jones seems to make the most sense of anybody IMO. We have taken a physical motion and broken it down into intellectual pieces. The swing needs to be looked at as a complete motion. one of the problems with learning this motion (swing) is that a number of people approach things from an analytical standpoint. Posted Image In other words "right-brained" or is it left? Anyway it is the side of the brain that analyzes the scientific approach rather than the feel approach. Mr. Jones seems to approch things from the feel side. I truly believe that the artist approach is better than the scientific. When teaching golfers, I always tried to get a new student to envision a perfect finish position and then without alot of thinking, swing to the perfect finish. Look at how great some players were until they started thinking about things ( Seve) . A pure feel player that lost his way and couldn't get it back. Ian Baker-Finch. How many times haqve we been told to "get out of our own way"? That simply means stop thinking about motion and just let the motion happen. easier said than done for most of us. I haven't read Ernest Jones, but this post will make me find a copy. Mr Austin(Pro at Merion) would stop in from time to time, and expound on Mr. Jones theory, but I think I was too dense to realize what he was saying. Either that or I was a 28  year old believing that I knew better. Imagine that!

BILL


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