79 replies to this topic

[The Pearl]

dap, on 10 February 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

martinez, on 07 February 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

If it was truly that simple it would be boring.

Aint that the truth.

If you don't have good mechanics,just swinging the clubhead is not going to correct them.It might make you play a bit better because it will stop you swinging too hard and that's about it.

There is a reason why so many swing ideas and fads come and go.They don't last for most players and will never be a generic solution for all.

There are many alleged cancer "cures" claiming miracles that have surfaced over the years.Do you honestly believe that if any one of them truly worked for the majority that it would not have made headlines by now and become widespread mainstream?

Swinging the entire club at the target creates good mechanics. De Le Torre or Jones, I am sure, don't deny the existence of good mechanics.  What they do challenge is how those mechanics are achieved.

[juststeve]

Pearl:

Are you still in the fold following Manny's teachings?  I hope so, the more you do it the better you will get.

Steve

[The Pearl]

spilbellman, on 07 February 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

In all seriousness, Ernest Jones seems to make the most sense of anybody IMO. We have taken a physical motion and broken it down into intellectual pieces. The swing needs to be looked at as a complete motion. one of the problems with learning this motion (swing) is that a number of people approach things from an analytical standpoint. In other words "right-brained" or is it left? Anyway it is the side of the brain that analyzes the scientific approach rather than the feel approach. Mr. Jones seems to approch things from the feel side. I truly believe that the artist approach is better than the scientific. When teaching golfers, I always tried to get a new student to envision a perfect finish position and then without alot of thinking, swing to the perfect finish. Look at how great some players were until they started thinking about things ( Seve) . A pure feel player that lost his way and couldn't get it back. Ian Baker-Finch. How many times haqve we been told to "get out of our own way"? That simply means stop thinking about motion and just let the motion happen. easier said than done for most of us. I haven't read Ernest Jones, but this post will make me find a copy. Mr Austin(Pro at Merion) would stop in from time to time, and expound on Mr. Jones theory, but I think I was too dense to realize what he was saying. Either that or I was a 28  year old believing that I knew better. Imagine that!

BILL

One of the things Manuel stressed through the entire course of my 3 lessons was "swinging the entire club" to the end of my forward swing. My first checkpoint now at the range and with the first few swings of the round is how I am finishing the forward swing.  Am I on balance?  Am I facing the target and is my right foot up and on my toe?  Am I relaxed and tension free?   Realize that a HUGE component of Manuel's philosophy is the mental aspect...visualizing the target and visualizing swinging the entire club at the target.   I was to erase all other thoughts from my mind.

You ever notice how when you replay a shot or your buddies hit a second ball what a great shot it usually produces?

[The Pearl]

juststeve, on 06 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Pearl:

Are you still in the fold following Manny's teachings?  I hope so, the more you do it the better you will get.

Steve

I will never go back to position golf.  I read Manny's book almost weekly along with John Hayes's book.   I bought the Orange Whip and practice in my basement everyday trying to "swing the entire whip without applying leverage."   Due to weather, I only have less than a dozen rounds under my belt and it is still a process.  Manuel told me it will be a challenge due to how I try to hit at the ball with my upper body and I still fight to be tension free. I can really feel what he was talking about when I don't use a swinging motion with the orange whip.  With that said, I have hit shots that I have never hit before in terms of quality and results when I apply what he taught me. I have had some nice 7 to 12 or 13 hole stretches at par golf. I really clicked playing the last day in Florida with my Dad.  It was a relatively short course and I played the forward tees with the old fellows, so I completely relaxed due to the short distance.  I got off to rough start but played the last 11 holes in 1 over par. My current failures are all mine and are mostly reverting back to old habits in the middle of the rounds.  I feel at this stage, the short comings are mostly mental.  The most surprising results have been from 100 yds in, particularly given that we did almost zero short game work.

Edited by The Pearl, 06 February 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Mike Divot]

Pat du Golf, on 04 February 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

After spending $$$$,time and frustration for so long...... I finally discovered this afternoon that golf can be simple as just " swinging the clubhead" and the rest just fall in place.

Your thoughts?

tigerphan, on 04 February 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

mordern golf is too many words of pointlessness mostly , golfs a simple game, made hard by us

birly-shirly, on 05 February 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

Have you looked at Manuel de la Torre? If not, you definitely should.

I like the simplicity.

Whether it's Jones or de la Torre or someone else, pick something simple, chuck the analytics, and let your swing find you.

[Mike Divot]

glcoach, on 05 February 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

Sounds great, but what happens when you get in a slump or start getting under plane or swinging too far to the right?

Buying into concepts like "swing plane" is where it starts to go wrong. Next thing you know you're worrying about the supination of your coccyx.

glcoach, on 05 February 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

No one was ever good just doing this. Somewhere along the line some work had to be done to figure out how that person should "swing the clubhead". I agree that at the end of the day that should be the goal, but you have to figure out how first.

I believe it was Ben Hogan who said "the secret is in some book  the latest edition of Golf Digest  the dirt."

glcoach, on 05 February 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

Successful golf is controlling the clubface,

I've come to believe that successful golf comes from not trying to control!

[Mike Divot]

IH82BOGEY, on 05 February 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

I cant agree.  I dont know anyone who can play really well without having done significant work at some point on their game

I don't think anyone is arguing against that. No-one gets to the top of anything without honing their skills, and honing, and honing.

It doesn't mean the foundation of their skill is complicated.

But modern instruction has brought in the contradictory ideas that the swing is extremely complicated; and for every golfer there is a tip, a "secret power move", some abstruse knowledge that will "solve" golf, and make the game instantly lay at their feet.

"Knock your irons dead stiff every time"

"Add thirty yards with my power move"

Etc.

Give me Jones over standard-issue modern instruction every day of the week.

[Mike Divot]

spilbellman, on 06 February 2010 - 12:05 PM, said:

Pat-

As an aside on Ernest Jones-Stick with me here.

1. Fred Austin was the golf pro at Merion for many years in the 1950's and 60's.
2. He Married Ernest Jones Daughter. Ernest Jones said "swing the clubhead."
3. Eddie Merrins was an assistant pro at Merion under Mr. Austin
4. Eddie Merrins wrote the book "Swing the Handle-Not the clubhead."

GO FIGURE:man_in_love:

Eddie Merrins! The well known .... guy who worked with a guy who married a girl who was the daughter of Ernest Jones.

[juststeve]

I want to make a small but important point about Mr. de la Torre's teaching as it relates to swing plane.  In the many hours I spent with Manny he never once mentioned swing plane.  What he did was to teach me how to swing the club back with both hands and forward with both arms. When I swing the club back and forward in the manner he taught me I am dead on plane.  That is something that comes along for free when you swing back and forward as you should.

That is part of the true genius of his method.  He can teach you to do a few things which if done correctly cause lots of other good stuff to happen.

Steve

[Chew70]

I went and had a lesson with MDLT last year. At the end I asked him if I could set up another lesson for the following week and he said "Why? You now know all you need to know, spend the rest of your life perfecting it." It was classic. lol. He showed me the swing in 10 minutes. That quote about Jones and the PGA saying that they would lose money if everyone taught that way is sad but probably true. No knock on any instructor but more people would probably enjoy this great game if they went and saw him for an hour.

[thekru]

juststeve, on 06 February 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want to make a small but important point about Mr. de la Torre's teaching as it relates to swing plane.  In the many hours I spent with Manny he never once mentioned swing plane.  What he did was to teach me how to swing the club back with both hands and forward with both arms. When I swing the club back and forward in the manner he taught me I am dead on plane.  That is something that comes along for free when you swing back and forward as you should.

That is part of the true genius of his method.  He can teach you to do a few things which if done correctly cause lots of other good stuff to happen.

Steve

@juststeve do you know anyone who is a disciple of his method in New England?

Edited by thekru, 06 February 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[juststeve]

thekru:

Sorry but I don't.  If you wait until after April 15th you can reach Manny by fax at 414-228-0162.  I've never know him to be less than helpful and he will certainly know a teacher in your area.

Steve

[The Pearl]

thekru, on 06 February 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

juststeve, on 06 February 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want to make a small but important point about Mr. de la Torre's teaching as it relates to swing plane.  In the many hours I spent with Manny he never once mentioned swing plane.  What he did was to teach me how to swing the club back with both hands and forward with both arms. When I swing the club back and forward in the manner he taught me I am dead on plane.  That is something that comes along for free when you swing back and forward as you should.

That is part of the true genius of his method.  He can teach you to do a few things which if done correctly cause lots of other good stuff to happen.

Steve

@juststeve do you know anyone who is a disciple of his method in New England?

Just go see him when he gets back to Milwaukee.   That is what I did.

[thekru]

The Pearl, on 07 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

thekru, on 06 February 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

juststeve, on 06 February 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want to make a small but important point about Mr. de la Torre's teaching as it relates to swing plane.  In the many hours I spent with Manny he never once mentioned swing plane.  What he did was to teach me how to swing the club back with both hands and forward with both arms. When I swing the club back and forward in the manner he taught me I am dead on plane.  That is something that comes along for free when you swing back and forward as you should.

That is part of the true genius of his method.  He can teach you to do a few things which if done correctly cause lots of other good stuff to happen.

Steve

@juststeve do you know anyone who is a disciple of his method in New England?

Just go see him when he gets back to Milwaukee.   That is what I did.

It would be great if I could, but since I am the GM/Head Pro at a course here in NH, I doubt the owners would be thrilled about me taking time off while we are trying to get up and running for the season.  He doesn't teach down South during the winter?

[Reif]

I played golf for 20 years without taking a lesson, got to a 13 handicap.

I'm now a five.  

I'm pretty sure my "natural" swing wasn't the answer.

[geoffaw]

Steve,

Would you say the only difference between de la Torre and Jones is more of a refinement of how the forward part of the swing is done...(swing the entire club forward with the upper arms) or are there differences is grip, stance and posture?

[juststeve]

Geoffaw:

I'm going to try not to mount my soapbox because this is a touchy subject with me.  Even Manny credits Ernest Jones with what he teaches far more than I think he should.  Manny is just too fine a gentleman and too beholden to Mr. Jones to say clearly where they differ and why.

While it might be correct to say that Manny's approach is a refinement of the Jones approach I think it is the refinement of the approach that makes all the difference.

You are correct to focus on the forward swing and the use of the arms to swing the entire club, but what a difference.  What I see is this:

1.  Swinging the clu head forward with the hands, per Jones leads to the early release and the dreaded flip.  

2.  The idea of swinging the club head into the ball instead of the whole club promotes the same effect.  If you are instead swinging the whole club you will not flip.

3.  Manny's concept of swinging forward with the arms, as defined by Manny, is a great leap forward.  Once you swing forward with the arms as Manny calls them, the upper arms as others might say, very good things happen.  When the upper arms power the swing two vital power producing angles are retained well into the forward swing.  Those are the angle between the left arm and the club shaft, and the angle formed by the right elbow.  When I swing forward with the upper arms as taught those angles are retained until the club arrives at the deliver position to be straightened out with considerable  speed through impact.  This is not something to concern yourself with, it just happens if you power your forward swing with what Manny calls your arms.  If you don't anything can happen.

Steve

[geoffaw]

juststeve, on 07 February 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Geoffaw:

I'm going to try not to mount my soapbox because this is a touchy subject with me.  Even Manny credits Ernest Jones with what he teaches far more than I think he should.  Manny is just too fine a gentleman and too beholden to Mr. Jones to say clearly where they differ and why.

While it might be correct to say that Manny's approach is a refinement of the Jones approach I think it is the refinement of the approach that makes all the difference.

You are correct to focus on the forward swing and the use of the arms to swing the entire club, but what a difference.  What I see is this:

1.  Swinging the clu head forward with the hands, per Jones leads to the early release and the dreaded flip.  

2.  The idea of swinging the club head into the ball instead of the whole club promotes the same effect.  If you are instead swinging the whole club you will not flip.

3.  Manny's concept of swinging forward with the arms, as defined by Manny, is a great leap forward.  Once you swing forward with the arms as Manny calls them, the upper arms as others might say, very good things happen.  When the upper arms power the swing two vital power producing angles are retained well into the forward swing.  Those are the angle between the left arm and the club shaft, and the angle formed by the right elbow.  When I swing forward with the upper arms as taught those angles are retained until the club arrives at the deliver position to be straightened out with considerable  speed through impact.  This is not something to concern yourself with, it just happens if you power your forward swing with what Manny calls your arms.  If you don't anything can happen.

Steve

Steve,

I'd really like to hear your opinion on this soapbox or not I think it would be very interesting esp. coming from someone with your background/training in the method.

[goobers80]

tigerphan, on 04 February 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

mordern golf is too many words of pointlessness mostly , golfs a simple game, made hard by us

I am tolds i am a *big picture* thinker due to autism stuffs.

I woulds agree with that. I see peoples working on positions , but how many are actually working on swinging *through* those positions. Otherwise there is no *flow* to a swing. I woulds find it easier to instructs somebody with a poor *flowing* swing over A poor over-thinking mechanical piece-meals type swings. Focus on one positions , you coulds easily forget about other things.

I knows for me , i switched from mechanical position instructor to a just let me swing coach and i am much better for it. I kept asking the mechanical video all the time coach to just let me swings , and he fought me over it.

I still say golf is only sport i have ever seen where peoples go so ridiculous with over thinkings the dumb stuff. The *fears* of looking *wrong* or nots hitting a draw or straights shot , or whatevers. Use what you gots and enhance it and slowly works on any majorly bad tendencies to puts together a nice swing. Make a swing , adjust , make anothers , adjust , but in full motions.  I see no benefits of breaking this stuffs down into so many *parts* .

Peoples just gotta swing and use their bodies.

[Hoganstriker]

Thats a great post.  The swing is not complicated.  People who do not understand how to feel instead of think make it so...Positions cameras 3d 4d swing vest Trackman.  It all comes down to one thing which has been practiced by all greats from the beginning-hit it where you're looking.
Free your body allow it to do what it needs to.
First thing you see when you see people going into a a stance or posture if they are no good is immediately putting their body into a forced looking unnatural position.
Second thing you can almost see their brain grinding as they freeze up.
Last is the ball goes nowhere good.
The more you complicate the more difficulty you bring into play.
The swing is simple many many ways succeed.  There's no secret you are gonna get from reading online.
You will need practice though.  Practice to your target.
Its like the abs method where all they do is try to swing on the flattest plane imaginable-FORGET PLANE for starters.
Focus on ballflight and the feel you used to reproduce that.  Forget video 98% are poor angles and the other 2% don't know what they are looking at anyways.  Some golfers are steeper some are flatter some have the coveted left release whatever you wanna call that some don't.
They are both good.
You can't think a swing-it is not a math equation.  You feel a swing.