[GwrxMod]

Mickelson is among at least four players at Torrey Pines using a Ping-Eye 2 wedge that was made 20 years ago and has square grooves. Such grooves now are banned on the PGA Tour because of a new USGA regulation this year that irons have V-shaped grooves. The square-groove Ping wedges remain legal, however, because of a lawsuit that Ping filed against the USGA that was settled in 1990.




"It's cheating, and I'm appalled Phil has put it in play," Scott McCarron said in Friday's edition of The San Francisco Chronicle.

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"I understand guys are upset about this rule - I'm upset about this rule," Mickelson said when asked about McCarron's comments. "I think we need to take it out on the governing bodies, the ones who are making these rules and carrying out these rules. ... I don't agree with the way (McCarron) carried on about it, but that's his choice. It's not my job or the job of any players to try to interpret the spirit of the rule or the intent," Mickelson said. "I understand approved or not approved."

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[mikpga]

Although Phil is within his rights, I disagree with his decision to play the Ping wedges...

So many tour players have been preparing themselves for this change in the rules, and I think Phil is being defiant for whatever reason(s)...

But, have at it Phil! You are one of the best at the short game, guess you're not ready to give up the 'illegal' grooves yet..

Gotta do what you gotta do...

Hats off to Stewart Cink!

By the way, the term 'cheater' is probably the wrong term to use in this case...

Phil is a class act, just disagree with his decision, that's all...

[NPVWhiz]

It seems to me that this whole problem is rooted in the USGA's historical tendency to allow for rules changes without adequately studying the impact of the change on the game.

In 1981, the USGA changed the rules to allow cast clubs to be made more economically, because the v-shaped groove that was made with a punch process on a forged iron couldn't be as easily manufactured on a cast iron, due to inadequacies in casting technology at the time.

What's clear in retrospect is that the USGA was 100% mistaken about their position that the shape of the groove had no performance advantage (which was why they had no qualms about the change in 1981).

But this has been a hallmark of seemingly all the rule machinations that have taken place since that time. The USGA is very late to the game when it comes to determining whether manufacturing technology and innovation was having an impact on the spirit of the rules.

The way the USGA tested ball velocity and total distance was outmoded for decades until they finally updated their testing methodology to have some connection to the reality of what was taking place in competitive play. Titanium drivers with hot spots high on the face still eluded them, but by the time the found a technical way of identifying the issue, the horses had not only left the barn, but had left town.

Same for volume of the head. The idea that the volume of a driver head has no performance impact for professionals is based on the idea that most pros hit the ball in the center of the center of the face, so the size of the face has very little effect. Sound familiar?

In every case, the USGA has assumed, for whatever reason, that the change du jour has a negligible effect. When they finally see the impact, either from experimental data or from performance stats from the tour, it's too late to do anything.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem that the first move that the PGA Tour takes to create a local rule will immediately result in an injunction from the nearest federal court.

In these tough times for the tour, why would they undertake another potentially devastating legal battle?

On the other hand, should the rules permit the play of equipment that all players don't legitimately have access to? Suppose a player wants to play a non-conforming but legal wedge, but just can't lay their hands on one? That doesn't seem tenable either.

My personal feeling is that Phil is willing to take the "hits" because he wants to draw attention to the issue as a way of putting pressure on the USGA to roll back their roll back.

Had the USGA just limited driver head size to 250cc, COR/CT to that of solid persimmon, and kept the overall distance to 280, I would still be able to relate to the game I grew up with.

[gomdol69]

Let see. I think we knew it's coming.

[marrigo]

"Such grooves now are banned on the PGA Tour because of a new USGA regulation this year that irons have V-shaped grooves."


The rule does not in any way shape or form mandate v-shaped grooves. I'm seeing this v-groove statement in just about every single news article on the subject. The new rule simply puts limits on the spacing and design of grooves, if a square groove is designed to meet those criteria then it is perfectly legal.

[drn92]

I think Phil is well within his rights to use the Ping wedge ... or a full set of the "grandfathered" Eye 2 clubs. They are on the "conforming" list from the USGA and are approved for play. As Phil said ... end of story.

McCarron better get his I3's checked. Unless they were specially made by Ping, they have non-conforming grooves (based on what I last saw on the Ping website ...).

The USGA is playing catch-up with the rule. They waited too long (20 years) to address the explosive growth in distance (some of which is caused by the extreme conditioning of PGA stops, most of which is caused by better equipment and better athletes).

drn92

[bscinstnct]

NPVWhiz, on 30 January 2010 - 11:14 AM, said:

It seems to me that this whole problem is rooted in the USGA's historical tendency to allow for rules changes without adequately studying the impact of the change on the game.

In 1981, the USGA changed the rules to allow cast clubs to be made more economically, because the v-shaped groove that was made with a punch process on a forged iron couldn't be as easily manufactured on a cast iron, due to inadequacies in casting technology at the time.

What's clear in retrospect is that the USGA was 100% mistaken about their position that the shape of the groove had no performance advantage (which was why they had no qualms about the change in 1981).

But this has been a hallmark of seemingly all the rule machinations that have taken place since that time. The USGA is very late to the game when it comes to determining whether manufacturing technology and innovation was having an impact on the spirit of the rules.

The way the USGA tested ball velocity and total distance was outmoded for decades until they finally updated their testing methodology to have some connection to the reality of what was taking place in competitive play. Titanium drivers with hot spots high on the face still eluded them, but by the time the found a technical way of identifying the issue, the horses had not only left the barn, but had left town.

Same for volume of the head. The idea that the volume of a driver head has no performance impact for professionals is based on the idea that most pros hit the ball in the center of the center of the face, so the size of the face has very little effect. Sound familiar?

In every case, the USGA has assumed, for whatever reason, that the change du jour has a negligible effect. When they finally see the impact, either from experimental data or from performance stats from the tour, it's too late to do anything.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem that the first move that the PGA Tour takes to create a local rule will immediately result in an injunction from the nearest federal court.

In these tough times for the tour, why would they undertake another potentially devastating legal battle?

On the other hand, should the rules permit the play of equipment that all players don't legitimately have access to? Suppose a player wants to play a non-conforming but legal wedge, but just can't lay their hands on one? That doesn't seem tenable either.

My personal feeling is that Phil is willing to take the "hits" because he wants to draw attention to the issue as a way of putting pressure on the USGA to roll back their roll back.

Had the USGA just limited driver head size to 250cc, COR/CT to that of solid persimmon, and kept the overall distance to 280, I would still be able to relate to the game I grew up with.

This sums it up. If everyone can get them, fine.

I still think it is cheesy on Phil's part.

I agree that he is not breaking a rule but he is doing something that can clearly be interpreted as
wrong as per the vocal criticism by his own peers.

It is a loophole and it reminds me of politicians and corporations who do something wrong but are technically
within the law.

Cheesy.

[hogans71]

Instinct, you don't honestly believe the part in bold to be the case, do you?

EDIT- didn't see your last part...

I do find the irony quite humorous in that the two most vocal members on Tour have circumvented the oft-mentioned "spirit of the game" idea with decades long use of the belly putter...

[porkman]

Lets see; Tiger out of the way, clever-clever use of a loophole in the rules to give himself an advantage.

Hope he wins a lot or he's not going to look too good.



Edited last sentence to make sense.

[hogans71]

porkman, on 30 January 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

Lets see; Tiger out of the way, clever-clever use of a loophole in the rules to give himself an advantage.

Hope he wins a lot or he's going to look too good.

Its only an advantage if he's the only one capable of doing it- that's not the case...

[MtlJeff]

IMO the whole groove change rule was a joke anyway and will never achieve what it was supposed to achieve. It is a shot at driving distance increases...but...The increase in driving distance and less focus on accuracy has more to do with course designs and re-designs (thank you Rees Jones and your 520yd par 4's...) than it does with equipment changes in the past 5 years. Nobody is hitting it further than Hank Khuene did in what, 2003? There is just more guys who hit it far than there was then, and the reason is because they have to hit it that far to compete on the new courses. That's why they all train and bulk up far more than they used to.

Too much distance didn't become a problem until the USGA started only awarding US opens to courses that were 7500yds. They were the ones who made distance the focus and now they are complaining that guys hit it far and there is less focus on accuracy. They should look in the mirror....All sports are darwinesque, you do what you need to do to survive. The USGA set up courses for years where only long hitters vould win. Than they complain that guys hit the ball too far.

set up courses so that shorter hitters can win, and you won't see a bunch of bomb and gougers on the tour. All of this dialing back the ball and grooves is a dumb response to a problem they created....so use that eye2 wedge Phil!

my opinion, i know not everyone will agree

[setter02]

As it has been mentioned in other posts, the USGA has done a very poor job in the past with how it handles things. They play catch up and then try to put the blame elsewhere, when instead, it was their duty to keep up with technology in the first place. The fact that they simply sit back, reap the rewards of how people play and then try and save face later is inexcusable. I liken the whole event to the McGuire/Sosa events in baseball. Nothing was done at the time, but many years later they speak up about how wrong it was, purely childish.

Phil is well within his 'RIGHTS' to play the wedge, period. Anyone who speaks up against that is just pissing in the wind and trying to dodge the spray back. Regardless of the circumstances around the wedge, it is legal to play. The whole thing about how players don't all have the ability to play this wedge is hearsay. The OEM's that sponsor the players can get their hands on anything. It means more to them in advertising dollars if their player (with logo's galore) is on TV. If this 'legal' wedge, helps them play to their full potential, then by all means the companies should be getting the players the wedges.

McCarron is more then likely just pissed that he is far past his prime (45), hasn't won in 9 years on Tour and hasn't even made a cut this year.

If you want to argue 'the spirit of the game or rules', then penalize and single out Tiger when the crowd moved the rock for him. Single out ever player who uses a belly putter. Any player who doesn't play the ball down regardless of conditions is then a cheater if they lift, clean and place.

Most people don't like Phil because of his confidence. Some call it arrogance but whatever, its not the point. How much of the game is mental, and you have to be confident to play at the top levels, how many wish they had what Phil has? Sounds like to me your just picking a battle to try and make your own personal faults not seem as bad.

[jaskanski]

This is a stupid post title. It is not Phil vs. USGA, it's Phil complying with the USGA. I'm sure there are other players on tour using these wedges, just like they probably have been in the past. Just because Phil has a bit of talent with the wedge and the current incumbent of the world's top ranking is taking a sabbatical, people feel justified on taking a swipe at him. Get a life. I don't see the players who missed the cut at the Farmers yesterday using Eye2 wedges getting an equal amount of scorn.

[porkman]

hogans71, on 30 January 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

porkman, on 30 January 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

Lets see; Tiger out of the way, clever-clever use of a loophole in the rules to give himself an advantage.

Hope he wins a lot or he's going to look too good.

Its only an advantage if he's the only one capable of doing it- that's not the case...

I missed a 'not' out of my last sentence, thus completely changing what I meant to say.

Anyway, lets see how many more players start using ancient Ping wedges.

[Sawgrass]

One of the earlier threads on this topic was a poll. 411 of us voted, and 75% of us said that what Phil was doing was not wrong.

I'm one of those 75%, and I'll add that it's my guess that most of the 25% who say it is wrong, some of whom call Phil a "cheater", are "cheaters" themselves by the same criteria.

I say that because I suspect that they have not yet thrown away their 2009-legal clubs and bought new conforming clubs. The argument for not having thrown them away is that they are still technically legal until 2014 or 2024, depending on the level of tournament you wish to play. So all of you who play 2009-legal clubs are circumventing the "spirt" of the rules too, and by your own misuse of the word, "cheaters."

[NPVWhiz]

Behind the scenes, Phil has been in a very vocal, very strident discussion with USGA officials...specifically Dick Rugge, on the topic of Phil's opposition to the change.

Phil's motivation is very personal. He feels that the rule is biased toward attacking his style of play. You can see the position in the words of Phil's short game compadre, who recently stated that the +60 degree wedge is dead due to the fact that the ball just can't grip the face well enough to produce anything but a low spin floater.

Phil feels like any rules change that seems to target specific subset of tour players, based on their style of play, is unfair.

He also has a legitimate gripe with the USGA if they can't come up with a method of measuring and determining conformance that only requires a single test. If the USGA can't clearly tell the manufacturers whether a set is conforming or how to manufacture a groove that's conforming, then they fail as a rules making body.

I think PM is one of the players that is most acutely aware that the new grooves do create a disadvantage in the rough. He's there often enough that he sees the effect, and he knows that over time it will affect his scoring. Understandably, he doesn't like it and wants it changed back. One of his advantages over the field has now been made a disadvantage. Who wouldn't complain?

[feedlotdoc]

This is a non-issue. The wedge is legal, period. When it becomes a non-legal wedge, Phil and others will take it out of the bag. How many people are complaining because they did not think of it first and now can't get there hands on one?

Phil stated that he sent several wedges to USGA to be approved. They met the standards in the Callaway lab, but not in the USGA lab. WTF? Has the USGA told Phil/Callaway why the wedges did not conform? How many times does he have to be told no before he goes somewhere else?

As to the "spirit of the game" camp. It is legal, therefore it is in the spirit of the game!

[1puttwoods]

How much is Ping loving the whole square grooves fiasco. Talk about a lot of free airtime, this is the greatest thing that has happened to this company in years. Also the value of all the old wedges has just increased tremendously, I'm going to go to the garage and get my stockpile and contact Scott McCaron and see if he wants to buy them.

[marcw]

All Phil did was put the clubs (legal clubs) in his bag that he thought would give him the best chance of winning the tournament.
The whole "Spirit of the game" line is BS. Those players didn't think of it in time and are crying foul. They should have kept their pie-holes shut and got their own Eye2s.

[golfwrxnut]

Fact: Those Ping wedges are legal, no cheating.

Fact: Ping wedges are available to everyone.


What have we learned? Hunt or be hunted.

Attached image(s)

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[CryMeARiver]

Scott can't afford them, he only works 2 days a week...

[Freak2]

CryMeARiver, on 30 January 2010 - 01:06 PM, said:

Scott can't afford them, he only works 2 days a week...

Fail!





he made $980,819 on tour last year.




I still think hes off base with the Phil drama, but you are even more off base.

[kevcarter]

Ping finally speaks about the wedge controversy!

Ping Press Release

[Smack Daddy]

After hearing McCarron's comments again today I just have to laugh at "Mr Long Putter" whining about violating the spirit of the game. Pot meet Kettle.

Perhaps Scott should debate this with Phil at the Masters. Of course, Scott will have to buy a ticket.

Not a Phil fanboy by any stretch but the wedge is legal as the long putter is legal.

The funny thing is I have no doubt that he and every person on this board would use every tax loophole available to save tax even if it violates the spirit of paying your fair share.

[kevcarter]

After watching today's comments, I think it's a great chance for the Solheim family to come out and be the hero. Allow the USGA and PGA to modify the rules and not allow the wedge. The problem can't be solved until the threat of a lawsuit goes away.

Kevin

[efduffer]

The fact that no two players on tour are using the exact same makeup of clubs in their bag invalidates the whole 'unfair advantage' BS. Legal equipment is fair to use. Players choose the equipment they have because it suits their game the best. Differences in equipment and performance are to be expected.

To truly take the equipment advantage out of the equation one would have to go to an IROC style of golf: everyone uses identical equipment. Then there could be no claims of advantage by using a specific club. We know that will never happen, so cut the crap and just play under the rules that everyone has to play by.

If you don't like it, don't blame those that take advantage of the rules, complain about the rule makers.

[Body_Visions]

I agree with what most have said. It is not legal until someone says it is not.

I think Phil made the choice as much to tick off the USGA as anything. Of course, that is just my opinion.

And McCarron needs to get over himself. Doesn't he use a putter that some might say is not in the spirit of the game? I use one as well, and as long as it is deemed legal, I will continue.




On another note, can someone tell me why my thread on this was deleted?

[stuway]

golfwrxnut, on 30 January 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:

Fact: Those Ping wedges are legal, no cheating.

Fact: Ping wedges are available to everyone.


What have we learned? Hunt or be hunted.

Bing freaking O

It's very simple, shut your piehole mcarron. Leave PM alone and make some cuts. BTW, I'm a Tiger guy, not a Phil guy.

[Ogre41]

kevcarter, on 30 January 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

Ping finally speaks about the wedge controversy!

Ping Press Release

Curse you Kevcarter!

[tjgus25]

this phrase "spirit of the game" means nothing. the spirit of the game as read in section 1 etiquette in the USGA Rules reads

"Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. the game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and ABIDE BY THE RULES. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf"

i believe if anything maybe McCarron is not in the spirit of the game by calling phil a cheater which is not demonstrating courtesy and sportsif anythingmanship at all times. the rule allows the ping eye2's phil has talked to USGA officials and they said its ok therefore McCarron and others have no place talk becuase its just sour grapes.