116 replies to this topic

[Sean2]

There are a lot of posts on this forum about the easiest and most forgiving clubs to hit. I would be curious as to what you good folks think is the easiest swing to learn.

Yes, we all know that the golf swing is complicated, but there are more swing theories/methodologies than their are brands of golf balls, and many contradict one another.

I wonder sometimes if we make it more complicated than it actually is. What have you found to be the easiest swing methodology to learn and incorporate?

[SHERO]

Everyone is going to say their own method is easiest.

[jar59]

This is a great question.  I hope it gets the responses it deserves.  

When considering the lack of golf knowledge, athletic ability, and commitment of time to practice that a large number of golfers bring to lessons, any player should consider the simplest swing that gives them consistently good contact, adaptability for different clubs and lies, and a clear mental objective.  

Another way to look at it is to consider what does that player need to change the least to get into a working swing.  Of course, the selected method would vary from student to student.

[Jeff Evans]

It comes down to your knowledge, your understanding and your ability to performance of the first two.  Once you know you know you will just perform automatically your skills. I am ask how long does it take and it takes as long as it takes. For some it is quicker than others but it is still continuous, it is the player's ability to experience - adjust - experience - adjust to the ever changing environments that they encounter from shot to shot and daily.

[Kevin SHields]

Their is no easiest swing, per say. A player needs to learn to use his pivot to control his kinetic chain. In doing so it must maximize his ability to control the path and clubface to produce the desired shot. However an individual does this the best is the easiest swing for them.

[kevcarter]

I think a lot depends upon who is helping you learn.

I have seen pictures and video of so many beginners learning S&T from guys like Dana, Logan, Dan, etc... I have never seen raw beginners, whether they be Juniors, Women, Men, Seniors get to great alignments as quickly as students working this pattern with teachers who understand it.

Very impressed by this personally...

Kevin

[BENCHMADE]

The one your born with! Like many starting out i found it way over complicated. Were hitting a round ball with a flat paddle right? Ive watched many videos, took a couple lessons. The videos "leadbeter S&T etc" were more confusing than anything. Lots of 50 cent college words and terminology. You need to be a Yale grad just to understand. The so called PGA instructor i took lessons from did an ok job of helping with the basics. But to be honest it sounded more of a rehearse plan than him teaching me any thing. I was still confused and searching.

Enter Darrel Klasson. Now before people reply and start slamming this guy. Dig deep into the net and you will come across a few of his videos. He was the only guy that was no BS and gave you the info strait in every day American terminology. His explanation of the swing,grip and release are unreal. Search for something called "Longer and Straighter".

[MonteScheinblum]

I agree with the others.  Swing is individual and the fastest one to learn is the one you create naturally and then tweak in small doses.

[stryper]

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Yes, we all know that the golf swing is complicated...

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm more and more convinced that the golf swing isn't as complicated as we make it out to be.  (With the help of self-serving publications that gaurantee a new, buillet proof "fix" with each new issue.)

I'm no expert, but from experience, I can only say that the more I simplify my swing, the better and more repeatable it becomes, and consequently the better and more consistant my ball striking becomes.  Quiter footwork, a less exaggerated shoulder turn, sinpler hand and wrist work seems to be paying dividends for me.

Now I haven't necessarily bought into his method, but Don Trahan--father of DJ--might be onto something.  (A search here might be worth your while.)  And then there was Count Yogi who said there really wasn't much to it at all.  (Another search, if you have the time.)  If nothing else, I like the way these guys think.  

[MonteScheinblum]

stryper, on Dec 18 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Yes, we all know that the golf swing is complicated...

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm more and more convinced that the golf swing isn't as complicated as we make it out to be.  (With the help of self-serving publications that gaurantee a new, buillet proof "fix" with each new issue.)

I'm no expert, but from experience, I can only say that the more I simplify my swing, the better and more repeatable it becomes, and consequently the better and more consistant my ball striking becomes.  Quiter footwork, a less exaggerated shoulder turn, sinpler hand and wrist work seems to be paying dividends for me.

Every golfer should be forced to read this.

[macca]

I would say S&T is a good method to repeat.

I have played on and off for 30ys, to a reasonable good level, been assistant pro when i left school.

I have allways tinkered with my swing(usually to no benifit) .

I have been trying S&T pattern, and i do think the no weight shifting back is a great way to gert a good strike.

I have seen so many beginners produce a big slice by ending with all weight on back foot after a big spin of the shoulders.

To me the S&T pattern would help you get better sooner.

But as stated above its just one of many ways to swing a club.

[Bobcat 2]

The key to the whole thing is to build a solid consistant backswing. That is all there is to it and its easy to practice at home or wherever. A good start is to develop the ability to make a level turn through stretching and strenghening the core and legs.

The trick is to make the turn you can make letting your body take the club back and hinging up with wrists as much as possible creating a good club position at the top(where-ever that is for you) while creating a dynamic coil. The forward move from there will become natural with a little practice. Swinging anything but a golf club without a ball in a golf swing does wonders for your swing. I like a broom handle with a rubber grip on the end to add swingweight.

The problem so many people have is they snatch the club away with their arms and then arm raise to the top. Club is inside at the bottom and over the top with no coil or power. Once you can make a backswing, consistantly into an operational position at the top to swing down inside , the full swing game becomes easy and you can focus on the shortgame where you can really shave strokes.

[Dariusz J.]

IMHO, the easiest swing to learn is:
1) that does not require zillion of repetitions and billion of range hours;
2) that does not require conscious thoughts appearing during the motion.
Generally, it would be a swing that can be automated to the biggest possible degree letting biophysics take the job unintentionally.

Cheers

[keygolf]

Dariusz J., on Dec 18 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

IMHO, the easiest swing to learn is:
1) that does not require zillion of repetitions and billion of range hours;
2) that does not require conscious thoughts appearing during the motion.
Generally, it would be a swing that can be automated to the biggest possible degree letting biophysics take the job unintentionally.

Cheers

You're onto important issues. Agree that it doesn't takes zillions - just however many it takes for you or me to build a skill and from that store a habit, which in turn requires knowing how habits are built.

Your comment about conscious thought is also "right on" but it needs the addition of how to keep the non-conscious still as well, since that's 97% of the deal. Unless all that can be implemented, it may indeed take trillions of repetitions, and those will likely occur without knowing if they are duplicates or not, and repetition that does not duplicate is useless.

Bottom line is that it is not so much which is the easiest method to learn, although that's part of the equation. It's knowing how to build in what you are trying to learn, since no method will work very well or very soon without that knowledge.

What fools players is that they practice till they are blue in the face and still can't get it to the course with sufficiently reliable consistency.

[Dariusz J.]

keygolf, on Dec 18 2009, 06:59 PM, said:

You're onto important issues. Agree that it doesn't takes zillions - just however many it takes for you or me to build a skill and from that store a habit, which in turn requires knowing how habits are built.

And why should we BUILD HABITS instead create scenarios that are natural for our subconscious minds ? Just examine the car on ice analogy - those who trust subconscious mind are not likely to crash that often as those who want to "steer" it ?

Your comment about conscious thought is also "right on" but it needs the addition of how to keep the non-conscious still as well, since that's 97% of the deal. Unless all that can be implemented, it may indeed take trillions of repetitions, and those will likely occur without knowing if they are duplicates or not, and repetition that does not duplicate is useless.

Why 97 % ? Have you run a scientific researches ? Just asking, while agreeing totally to your point here.

Bottom line is that it is not so much which is the easiest method to learn, although that's part of the equation. It's knowing how to build in what you are trying to learn, since no method will work very well or very soon without that knowledge.

What fools players is that they practice till they are blue in the face and still can't get it to the course with sufficiently reliable consistency.

That's the point. And this is the best real verification for each swing theory.

A very good post, overally. Seems you have something serious to contribute here. I am all ears.

Cheers

[Sean2]

stryper, on Dec 18 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Yes, we all know that the golf swing is complicated...

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm more and more convinced that the golf swing isn't as complicated as we make it out to be.  (With the help of self-serving publications that gaurantee a new, buillet proof "fix" with each new issue.)

I'm no expert, but from experience, I can only say that the more I simplify my swing, the better and more repeatable it becomes, and consequently the better and more consistant my ball striking becomes.  Quiter footwork, a less exaggerated shoulder turn, sinpler hand and wrist work seems to be paying dividends for me.

Now I haven't necessarily bought into his method, but Don Trahan--father of DJ--might be onto something.  (A search here might be worth your while.)  And then there was Count Yogi who said there really wasn't much to it at all.  (Another search, if you have the time.)  If nothing else, I like the way these guys think.  

That's my point. For some reason we all have this deep seated belief that the golf swing is terribly complex and it takes years to develop a good one. I don't believe that. I think there is a better way, I just don't know what it is.

[iteachgolf]

I'm biased but I think this one is pretty easy to learn.

Absolute beginner (about 35 minutes from first swing to driver swing)

[Dariusz J.]

If it is an absolute beginner, I am Santa Claus...
An absolute beginner would have difficulties to hit the ball, let's get it straight.
And S&T is not the easiest pattern to learn due to a lot of training hours needed to learn some crucial aspects as well as a lot of conscious thoughts a beginner must suffer. It's a good pattern though.

Cheers

[iteachgolf]

Dariusz J., on Dec 18 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

If it is an absolute beginner, I am Santa Claus...
An absolute beginner would have difficulties to hit the ball, let's get it straight.
And S&T is not the easiest pattern to learn due to a lot of training hours needed to learn some crucial aspects as well as a lot of conscious thoughts a beginner must suffer. It's a good pattern though.

Cheers

It was the third time in his life he has held a club and he has played once in his entire life,  a scramble.  He brought a bag of Northwestern Blades and Woods from the 1970s with the original grips on them, someone gave them to him.  I would consider him an absolute beginner.  Btw guy topped 3 of the first 4 shots he hit.  You are entitled to your opinion but he is as close to a beginner as you can get and made drastic changes in 30 minutes not many hours.

[BENCHMADE]

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

stryper, on Dec 18 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Yes, we all know that the golf swing is complicated...

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm more and more convinced that the golf swing isn't as complicated as we make it out to be. (With the help of self-serving publications that gaurantee a new, buillet proof "fix" with each new issue.)

I'm no expert, but from experience, I can only say that the more I simplify my swing, the better and more repeatable it becomes, and consequently the better and more consistant my ball striking becomes. Quiter footwork, a less exaggerated shoulder turn, sinpler hand and wrist work seems to be paying dividends for me.

Now I haven't necessarily bought into his method, but Don Trahan--father of DJ--might be onto something. (A search here might be worth your while.) And then there was Count Yogi who said there really wasn't much to it at all. (Another search, if you have the time.) If nothing else, I like the way these guys think.

That's my point. For some reason we all have this deep seated belief that the golf swing is terribly complex and it takes years to develop a good one. I don't believe that. I think there is a better way, I just don't know what it is.

Exactly!!! I too have Don T videos. While there great i think his teaching is a little scattered. Although he hits on some very good points. Here is a small low quality clip from Darrel Klasson. I was so impressed by him I'm going to fly out to Cali and take some lessons personally. What Keygolf was hitting on is what Darrel teaches.

Edited by BENCHMADE, 18 December 2009 - 09:15 PM.

[gmbtempe]

Dariusz J., on Dec 18 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

If it is an absolute beginner, I am Santa Claus...
An absolute beginner would have difficulties to hit the ball, let's get it straight.
And S&T is not the easiest pattern to learn due to a lot of training hours needed to learn some crucial aspects as well as a lot of conscious thoughts a beginner must suffer. It's a good pattern though.

Cheers

what? I normally love your posts but this one seems out there, my 6 year old can grab a club and hit it straight with a reasonable motion, the first time I ever hit a ball was in 5th grade and had not problem playing 9 holes.   That guys first swing looked very beginner to me.

[Kevin SHields]

BENCHMADE, on Dec 18 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

stryper, on Dec 18 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

DefConOne, on Dec 18 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Yes, we all know that the golf swing is complicated...

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm more and more convinced that the golf swing isn't as complicated as we make it out to be. (With the help of self-serving publications that gaurantee a new, buillet proof "fix" with each new issue.)

I'm no expert, but from experience, I can only say that the more I simplify my swing, the better and more repeatable it becomes, and consequently the better and more consistant my ball striking becomes. Quiter footwork, a less exaggerated shoulder turn, sinpler hand and wrist work seems to be paying dividends for me.

Now I haven't necessarily bought into his method, but Don Trahan--father of DJ--might be onto something. (A search here might be worth your while.) And then there was Count Yogi who said there really wasn't much to it at all. (Another search, if you have the time.) If nothing else, I like the way these guys think.

That's my point. For some reason we all have this deep seated belief that the golf swing is terribly complex and it takes years to develop a good one. I don't believe that. I think there is a better way, I just don't know what it is.

Exactly!!! I too have Don T videos. While there great i think his teaching is a little scattered. Although he hits on some very good points. Here is a small low quality clip from Darrel Klasson. I was so impressed by him I'm going to fly out to Cali and take some lessons personally. What Keygolf was hitting on is what Darrel teaches.

Thats 7min and 19 seconds I'll never be able to retrieve. I was waiting for the white suits to come take him off the range and put him on the bus back to Trembling Hills.

[BENCHMADE]

gmbtempe, on Dec 18 2009, 09:19 PM, said:

Dariusz J., on Dec 18 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

If it is an absolute beginner, I am Santa Claus...
An absolute beginner would have difficulties to hit the ball, let's get it straight.
And S&T is not the easiest pattern to learn due to a lot of training hours needed to learn some crucial aspects as well as a lot of conscious thoughts a beginner must suffer. It's a good pattern though.

Cheers

what? I normally love your posts but this one seems out there, my 6 year old can grab a club and hit it straight with a reasonable motion, the first time I ever hit a ball was in 5th grade and had not problem playing 9 holes. That guys first swing looked very beginner to me.

Because a kid or new player exposed to the complicated swing thoughts. They just hit the dumb thing. Like what was posted about playing better by not trying. No thoughts and just let it go. Its more of a war between the subconscious and conscious. In reality when you take out all the complications of a golf swing. There really isnt much to it to do it well. Not tooting my own horn as im still new to the game. I have played 3 back nines and one full 18 and thats it. Ive beat my buddies 3 out of the four games we played. They all swear ive played before but i havent. The deal was i take them fishing and they take me golfing. Now im hooked both ways.

[gmbtempe]

BENCHMADE, on Dec 18 2009, 07:31 PM, said:

gmbtempe, on Dec 18 2009, 09:19 PM, said:

Dariusz J., on Dec 18 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

If it is an absolute beginner, I am Santa Claus...
An absolute beginner would have difficulties to hit the ball, let's get it straight.
And S&T is not the easiest pattern to learn due to a lot of training hours needed to learn some crucial aspects as well as a lot of conscious thoughts a beginner must suffer. It's a good pattern though.

Cheers

what? I normally love your posts but this one seems out there, my 6 year old can grab a club and hit it straight with a reasonable motion, the first time I ever hit a ball was in 5th grade and had not problem playing 9 holes. That guys first swing looked very beginner to me.

Because a kid or new player exposed to the complicated swing thoughts. They just hit the dumb thing. Like what was posted about playing better by not trying. No thoughts and just let it go. Its more of a war between the subconscious and conscious. In reality when you take out all the complications of a golf swing. There really isnt much to it to do it well. Not tooting my own horn as im still new to the game. I have played 3 back nines and one full 18 and thats it. Ive beat my buddies 3 out of the four games we played. They all swear ive played before but i havent. The deal was i take them fishing and they take me golfing. Now im hooked both ways.

the problem is natural athleticism, coordination and timing can only overcome so many deficits....and there is a diference between hitting a ball and playing quality golf for 18 holes.

[tony_teetime]

BENCHMADE, on Dec 18 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

Here is a small low quality clip from Darrel Klasson. I was so impressed by him I'm going to fly out to Cali and take some lessons personally.

His instruction may work for some , but I stop listening when he said you have to have face of the club come in with a 7 to 10 degree shut at impact ( 3 min:15 second mark).     

Anyhow, I think the easiest swing to make is the one that you understand.  Everyone's brain is wired differently.  If you learn better by visual and hands on , then find an instructor that do visuals aid in their teaching (example Martin Hall) .   If you learn better with techinical theory and such then find a TGM certified teacher etc..  There are many ways to teach , learn and many good techniques on how to swing.  But if you don't understand what you are suppose to do, then the swing won't be easy.

[kamandi]

Though it isn't the swing I use, I'd say the easiest is the swing-the-club and let the body follow method of Ernest Jones .....

"If the mind is concentrated on manipulating the club-head by means of hand and finger work, the body can hardly get into the shot too soon, and if the player is determined to let everything respond which wants to respond to the impulse suggested by the hands and fingers, the body is not likely to lag behind.  The hands and fingers must so control the club-head that at the vital moment they are ready to make the club-head (which up to that point in the down-swing has been behind the hands) lash through the ball, pulling hands, arms, shoulders, and legs after it."

The popular teaching today is the body initiates the swing ... inner controls the outer.  In one of Lynn Blake's videos, though, he mentions something like ... when your body already knows how to move, all you have to focus on now is the hands ... or something like that.  It's like it comes to full circle.

From Bruce Lee .... "Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just      like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick      no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a      punch, a kick just like a kick."

[keygolf]

Dariusz J., on Dec 18 2009, 06:21 PM, said:

keygolf, on Dec 18 2009, 06:59 PM, said:

You're onto important issues. Agree that it doesn't takes zillions - just however many it takes for you or me to build a skill and from that store a habit, which in turn requires knowing how habits are built.

And why should we BUILD HABITS instead create scenarios that are natural for our subconscious minds ? Just examine the car on ice analogy - those who trust subconscious mind are not likely to crash that often as those who want to "steer" it ?

Your comment about conscious thought is also "right on" but it needs the addition of how to keep the non-conscious still as well, since that's 97% of the deal. Unless all that can be implemented, it may indeed take trillions of repetitions, and those will likely occur without knowing if they are duplicates or not, and repetition that does not duplicate is useless.

Why 97 % ? Have you run a scientific researches ? Just asking, while agreeing totally to your point here.

Bottom line is that it is not so much which is the easiest method to learn, although that's part of the equation. It's knowing how to build in what you are trying to learn, since no method will work very well or very soon without that knowledge.

What fools players is that they practice till they are blue in the face and still can't get it to the course with sufficiently reliable consistency.

That's the point. And this is the best real verification for each swing theory.

A very good post, overally. Seems you have something serious to contribute here. I am all ears.

Cheers

I'd like to have time to wade back through 30 years of research that I was able to uncover and provide that for you, but best case is to do an internet search yourself. You will find everything from no numbers to the more frequent 97-98% non-conscious figure and I recently saw one that said 99%, which may or may not be the case. Better to notice all the work done on the relationship between the conscious and non-conscious activity.

I did find this in a recent article that was saved on my desktop: "...according to Emmanuel Donchin, director of the Laboratory for Cognitive Psychophysiology at the University of Illinois, “As much as 99 percent of cognitive activity may be non-conscious.”

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for with your question:

"And why should we BUILD HABITS instead create scenarios that are natural for our subconscious minds ? Just examine the car on ice analogy - those who trust subconscious mind are not likely to crash that often as those who want to "steer" it?"

Since all our motions  that have become habits are stored in the non conscious, I think you are suggesting that envisioning what you want to do is all that is necessary and that's likley how it works - IF you have the habits stored. If there are no habits for what you are "creating a scenario for," what you will get is whatever the non conscious decides to do , like hit it out of bounds.

My point was that unless practice is organized for the purpose of building habits, and unless the process used to do that does, in fact, deliver habits, players will keep wondering why they cannot get it to the course.

Edited by keygolf, 18 December 2009 - 11:04 PM.

[Tanner25]

iteachgolf, on Dec 18 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

I'm biased but I think this one is pretty easy to learn.

Absolute beginner (about 35 minutes from first swing to driver swing)

Iteach,

I am convinced that the high capper, collapses at the top of the backswing and the improvment comes
from a solid top position as evidence in this video. Is this your student? How did he get to a solid backswing
position?

[PreppySlapCut]

tony_teetime, on Dec 18 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

BENCHMADE, on Dec 18 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

Here is a small low quality clip from Darrel Klasson. I was so impressed by him I'm going to fly out to Cali and take some lessons personally.

His instruction may work for some , but I stop listening when he said you have to have face of the club come in with a 7 to 10 degree shut at impact ( 3 min:15 second mark).     

Wow, I almost threw up when I hear him say that...

[Sean2]

iTeach: that's amazing...what a difference. I can believe it though because in this case the student is a tabula rosa. Those of us that have been at it for a while already have a lot of preconceived notions that get in the way.

That said there are so many methodologies. In the early 60s Joe Dante advocated an early wrist c-o-c-k, leading with the hips and allowing the coefficient of angular momentum to naturally unfold. Manuel de la Torre advocated swinging at the ball with the upper arms, Stack and Tilt keeps one's weight on the forward side, etc. It's enough to make one's head spin. :-)