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Braced Right Leg


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#1 hanon

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 07:01 PM

This is capital to control to weight transfer during the backswing and to set the correct rotation of the hips, as Hogan suggested:


Attached File  Braced_Right_Leg_swing.JPG   55.45K   30 downloads


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#2 Dariusz J.

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 07:10 PM

Yep, nothing new. Mr.Hogan achieved this thanks to his rear ankle/knee joint preset and, to a degree, to the diagonal stance he performed.

Cheers

#3 dream_stryker

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 08:58 PM

This is a good principle....but negotiable depending on the striking pattern and style of the golfer.

#4 tmfool

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 09:28 PM

View Postdream_stryker, on Dec 11 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

This is a good principle....but negotiable depending on the striking pattern and style of the golfer.


braced right knee was NOT negotiable w/ Hogan....it was, in fact, 1 of his "5 fundamentals"

the point of the OP, as i read it.
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#5 tm22721

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:50 AM

IMO the braced right leg especially Hogans way of achieving it, is key to automating weight shift in the backswing to the left foot and establishing proper secondary axis tilt PRIOR to starting the downswing. The stability imparted by this move aids in maintaining balance and a steady head which are the necessary precepts to consistency.

Edited by tm22721, 12 December 2009 - 11:51 AM.


#6 carrera

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:14 AM

Can someone discuss optimal flex/movement of the right leg in the second half of the swing...most posts about the right leg focus on the backswing, and not the downswing approach to the ball.  As the right leg goes, so goes the right hip, it would seem.  Many here have posted about problems with their right hip movement in the downswing, resulting in losing tush line etc.  Thanks.

#7 tm22721

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:05 AM

View Postcarrera, on 16 January 2010 - 01:14 AM, said:

Can someone discuss optimal flex/movement of the right leg in the second half of the swing...most posts about the right leg focus on the backswing, and not the downswing approach to the ball. As the right leg goes, so goes the right hip, it would seem. Many here have posted about problems with their right hip movement in the downswing, resulting in losing tush line etc. Thanks.
IMO Darius has the best visualization of this move.

#8 birly-shirly

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:15 PM

so, is it a braced right leg that controls weight shift and provides stability - or is it good balance and remaining "centered" that allows the right leg to maintain its angle?

it's worth bearing in mind that, notwithstanding hogan's insistence on the right leg retaining its address angle, for plenty teachers, methods, and swings it's enough just to have the player's weight not shifting to the outside of the right foot

#9 highergr0und

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:26 PM

Overlooked? Check out the 110+ page thread on it, or the 10 page followup... If you wade through the fighting you'll find a lot of good stuff on bracing the leg.

big thread

Follow Up

#10 Tanner25

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:07 PM

View PostDariusz J., on 11 December 2009 - 07:10 PM, said:

Yep, nothing new. Mr.Hogan achieved this thanks to his rear ankle/knee joint preset and, to a degree, to the diagonal stance he performed.

Cheers


Is the real key the " diagonal stance " or angled right leg? I am assuming with this pre-set - there's less
intentional movement of " bracing " the right leg in the backswing.


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#11 Dariusz J.

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:58 PM

View Postcarrera, on 16 January 2010 - 01:14 AM, said:

Can someone discuss optimal flex/movement of the right leg in the second half of the swing...most posts about the right leg focus on the backswing, and not the downswing approach to the ball.  As the right leg goes, so goes the right hip, it would seem.  Many here have posted about problems with their right hip movement in the downswing, resulting in losing tush line etc.  Thanks.

IMHO, what happens with the rear leg during the downswing is a pure automatic reaction to the (over)torques that have been built thanks to creating the firm rear side sequentially from the ground up in the backswing phase. The torques in the ankle and knee joints that cause the rear femur guide the rear hip joint the only one desired way - to the S-W direction. Where the femur is being directed the hip joint would go as well a blink of an eye later. Every expansion is an automatic result of compression - the trick is to work out the proper directions of vectors.
Use the link TM22721 placed (thanks, mate !) in order to see exact visualizations of all these phenomena.

Now, the main reason for losing the tush line is improper rear hip joint motion. The rear leg (hip, femur and knee) usually goes closer to the ball, the rear heel jumps off the ground much too soon depriving the downswing off the power coming from ground forces, hips are spinning out, etc.
One can try to solve the problem by introducing conscious thoughts to the motion (e.g. concentrate on keeping the heel down or concentrate on performing the Sevam's Move, etc.) but IMO, even the best of these (and those two may be easily one of the best) are worse than lack of conscious thoughts.

Cheers


View Postaslan, on 16 January 2010 - 02:07 PM, said:

Is the real key the " diagonal stance " or angled right leg? I am assuming with this pre-set - there's less
intentional movement of " bracing " the right leg in the backswing.

Aslan, both. Of course, the DS fits excellently into the scenario of presetting the ankle/knee joints at address and allows to utilize a full potential without a danger of a too shallow rear hip motion. It also helps vividly to keep the knee bent inwards even if it is the effect of the knee joint preset.
I'd put this way - the preset and the diagonal stance complement each other but if I am to choose the "more directly acting" phenomenon it would be the preset. However, the preset alone won't bring such results as combined with the DS for sure.

Cheers

#12 tm22721

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:49 PM

Darius please critique this video.

#13 Dariusz J.

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 08:38 AM

View Posttm22721, on 17 January 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

Darius please critique this video.

Well, this vid is much better than the first vid Shawn Clement did on Hogan, but it's not free of biomechanical mistakes, IMO.
The good thing is that he mentions about the necessity of lateral motion as well as he demyths the X-Factor theory plus he correctly mentions about the enormous leverage Hogan had thanks to his rear firm side build sequentially from the ground up.
The issues I see is that what he tries to show is again a too deep and too flat rear hip turn putting this leverage onto the hip joint and depriving the power of torques built in rear ankle and knee joints. Note please that he even do not try to imitate Hogan's diagonal stance with his rear foot perpendicular to the target line - because he wouldn't be able to bring the rear hip the way he did without straightening the leg.
The result is an elyptical motion of the lead hip and lack of linear motion at the end of the backswing. He cannot say that the most important biomechanical advantage Hogan had with his pelvis area motion - separation of linear and rotational motion - happens not because he cleared the rear hip but because he used torques in the hard structure.

My 3 cents :)

Cheers

#14 hanon

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 05:47 PM

Sam Snead was also braced against his right leg at the top of the backswing. For sure this is an overlooked part of todays instruction :

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXLoZFzIfE"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=thXLoZFzIfE[/url]

#15 Dariusz J.

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:27 PM

Hanon, there are indeed many "forgotten and overlooked" parts in today's golf instruction. This one that you deal with in your thread is surely one of the most important. No doubt.
BTW, Snead's way of building the firm rear side from the ground up (bracing the trail leg) was a bit different than Hogan's because his swing was more centered without so pronounced linear part.

Cheers

Edited by Dariusz J., 15 March 2010 - 02:29 PM.


#16 bscinstnct

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:51 PM

Look at that hip turn Snead has. 45 seconds in.

Bracing the right leg can sound deceptive if it inhibits your hip turn.

Edited by bscinstnct, 15 March 2010 - 03:52 PM.


#17 mvmac

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:01 PM

View Postbscinstnct, on 15 March 2010 - 03:51 PM, said:

Look at that hip turn Snead has. 45 seconds in.

Bracing the right leg can sound deceptive if it inhibits your hip turn.

Yep the angle the right knee is set at from the face on view shouldn't change but the flex of the knee changes. That's how you can get this picture with the right hip high.
Attached File  Hogan-back-top.jpg   23.87K   10 downloads

#18 Noonan

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:23 PM

It's interesting to hear many players talk about keeping the flex in the right knee during the backswing, but when seeing videos of their swings, you often see a fair amount of right knee straightening.

#19 bscinstnct

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:33 PM

View Postmvmac, on 15 March 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

View Postbscinstnct, on 15 March 2010 - 03:51 PM, said:

Look at that hip turn Snead has. 45 seconds in.

Bracing the right leg can sound deceptive if it inhibits your hip turn.

Yep the angle the right knee is set at from the face on view shouldn't change but the flex of the knee changes. That's how you can get this picture with the right hip high.
Attached File  Hogan-back-top.jpg   23.87K   10 downloads

Is it even possible to turn the right hip without straightening the right knee as it turns?

I just tried, can't do it.

#20 Dariusz J.

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 05:39 PM

The straightening leg helps maximizing the hip turn. The key is to allow the leg to straighten without locking the knee - this is the only one possibility of swinging perpendicularily to the spine - the rear hip must go up and back = rear leg must fairly  straighten.
How to monitor/automate it ? By finding ones own amount of the rear knee presetting at setup that depends of one's flexibility in the knee joint area.
First, when the limitation of the ROM of the knee joint outward rotation is being reached, the knee tends to straighten per se since it cannot rotate outwards more; second, it is not physically possible to straighten the leg fully - again - when the limitation of the ROM of the knee outward rotation is being reached and there is weight kept on this leg.

Cheers


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#21 enotsyer

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:42 PM

Some real great info in this thread, thanks guys! This is something I've been working on over the winter during my indoor lessons.

#22 funkyfedora

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:53 PM

Can this be tied to S&T? As far as the right leg goes... I know they say weight on the left, but could the weight on the left shift and brace on the right and still be S&T? Thanks guys. I am a really bad newbie as far as swings go.

#23 mvmac

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:44 PM

View Postfunkyfedora, on 15 March 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

Can this be tied to S&T? As far as the right leg goes... I know they say weight on the left, but could the weight on the left shift and brace on the right and still be S&T? Thanks guys. I am a really bad newbie as far as swings go.

I would say that it is not S&T if weight if shifting to the rear leg. With S&T weight is slightly left 55/45 at setup and 60/40 at the top of the bs.

#24 funkyfedora

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 12:45 AM

View Postmvmac, on 15 March 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:

View Postfunkyfedora, on 15 March 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

Can this be tied to S&T? As far as the right leg goes... I know they say weight on the left, but could the weight on the left shift and brace on the right and still be S&T? Thanks guys. I am a really bad newbie as far as swings go.

I would say that it is not S&T if weight if shifting to the rear leg. With S&T weight is slightly left 55/45 at setup and 60/40 at the top of the bs.

I might have to make my own swing. I sway on my back swing and I think bracing the right leg will help.




#25 PingG10guy

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:21 PM

View PostDariusz J., on 15 March 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

The straightening leg helps maximizing the hip turn. The key is to allow the leg to straighten without locking the knee - this is the only one possibility of swinging perpendicularily to the spine - the rear hip must go up and back = rear leg must fairly straighten.
How to monitor/automate it ? By finding ones own amount of the rear knee presetting at setup that depends of one's flexibility in the knee joint area.
First, when the limitation of the ROM of the knee joint outward rotation is being reached, the knee tends to straighten per se since it cannot rotate outwards more; second, it is not physically possible to straighten the leg fully - again - when the limitation of the ROM of the knee outward rotation is being reached and there is weight kept on this leg.

Cheers

I just cant say enough of how much i respect your posts. The positive progress I was making in my ball striking came to a hault about a month ago. After reading this thread I realized that my hips were opened to the target line at address and have been for some time. So my shoulders and feet are lined up for a square shot, and my hips are already partially rotated(impact position-ish). I also suffer from not making a full shoulder turn(wonder why???), and i have a good strong lateral/rotational move to the target. So at impact The club face is shut down. I hit pulls/pushes/tops/fat guys...and i also hit some really nice shots lol. I swear if golf equipment wasnt so forgiving nowadays then this process would be easier. i get stuck and use my upper body/hands to save it. When i put my driver swing up to my meter today i would swing 120, then 105, 110, 99, 117. It was weird. Thanks for the great info. I really need to beat my new boss this Saturday. Im probably going to gain a lot of distance from this...thanks!


#26 Dariusz J.

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 06:36 AM

Thank you for very kind words, I do appreciate them.

Cheers

P.S. GL in beating your boss, mate :)

#27 Tanner25

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 07:12 PM

View PostPingG10guy, on 22 April 2010 - 09:21 PM, said:

View PostDariusz J., on 15 March 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

The straightening leg helps maximizing the hip turn. The key is to allow the leg to straighten without locking the knee - this is the only one possibility of swinging perpendicularily to the spine - the rear hip must go up and back = rear leg must fairly straighten.
How to monitor/automate it ? By finding ones own amount of the rear knee presetting at setup that depends of one's flexibility in the knee joint area.
First, when the limitation of the ROM of the knee joint outward rotation is being reached, the knee tends to straighten per se since it cannot rotate outwards more; second, it is not physically possible to straighten the leg fully - again - when the limitation of the ROM of the knee outward rotation is being reached and there is weight kept on this leg.

Cheers

I just cant say enough of how much i respect your posts. The positive progress I was making in my ball striking came to a hault about a month ago. After reading this thread I realized that my hips were opened to the target line at address and have been for some time. So my shoulders and feet are lined up for a square shot, and my hips are already partially rotated(impact position-ish). I also suffer from not making a full shoulder turn(wonder why???), and i have a good strong lateral/rotational move to the target. So at impact The club face is shut down. I hit pulls/pushes/tops/fat guys...and i also hit some really nice shots lol. I swear if golf equipment wasnt so forgiving nowadays then this process would be easier. i get stuck and use my upper body/hands to save it. When i put my driver swing up to my meter today i would swing 120, then 105, 110, 99, 117. It was weird. Thanks for the great info. I really need to beat my new boss this Saturday. Im probably going to gain a lot of distance from this...thanks!

Ping,

I suffer from the same thing. I can square up. But, my hips lay open at address. I always thought
this was a problem. But, never knew how to address. If I intentionally pull it square, that is not
helpful. How did you address this issue?

Aslan

Edited by aslan, 23 April 2010 - 07:13 PM.


#28 PingG10guy

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 06:35 PM

View Postaslan, on 23 April 2010 - 07:12 PM, said:

Ping,

I suffer from the same thing. I can square up. But, my hips lay open at address. I always thought
this was a problem. But, never knew how to address. If I intentionally pull it square, that is not
helpful. How did you address this issue?

Aslan

My hips are square at address now you can tell if yours are by looking at your knees; if the knees are even then then hips are as well. Even if you use diagonal stance theory you still need square hips.

Watch hogan, tiger, and sneed, and all the others great ballstrikers in slo mo on youtube. watch just their hip action. striking a golf ball doesnt seem like a mystery anymore. It seems more like a mathematical equation. Any other problem you have will be grip related and minor adjustments on finding how far to stand from the ball based on your flexibility. I will say that my left hip makes its move to the final position with more control if i am in a more upright posture.

reason for edit: I was wrong

Edited by PingG10guy, 20 June 2010 - 10:45 AM.





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