[Bobcat 2]

Most golfers, I think do not even know the rules and accepted practices of two off the first tee, good within the putter grip, roll'em in the fairway, take a drop when the ball is lost or OB, dropping the ball wherever to have a good shot after being on a manmade obstruction or cartpath and capping scores at double bogey or twice the par of the hole, have become common place in casual play.

But most of these folks do not keep real handicaps at clubs but play within their groups under the same rules for all in the group. To me a real problem arises when someone keeps a handicap based on play under private agreements contrary to the rules of golf, as that handicap is meaningless.

Slow pace of play can occur with the good golfers as well as the bad. Some people just play slow, never ready to hit, with club selection and long pre shot routines.

[bermuda]

Pepperturbo, on Nov 10 2009, 12:06 PM, said:

There's a time and place where "all" the rules of golf can be adhered to, and there are times where it's not as easy as some you imply. Why is that so hard to understand?

Rules are one aspect of the game of golf; the other aspect to be considered is the difficulty of the course which easily affects more then that one shot. On a difficult course when the average mid-hi cap Joe is faced with difficult conditions if he follows the rules to the letter, one difficult errant stroke can turn into three more, slowing the game, and easily slowing the field behind.

For example; I've watched a friends that play to 20-24 indexes bump the ball. I am glad they do even when I don't. They are struggling to hit the ball under the best conditions. Now they find their ball in a real ugly lie which leads to another ugly lie, then another. Those extra strokes have others waiting and the people behind waiting; for what, an anal need to play by the rules; it's stupid judgment. If he'd bumped the ball there's a better chance good would have come from it, and nobody's waiting.

Rules are important but critical judgment must supersede anal rule thinking during casual rounds. If it doesn't then those adhering to the rules at all costs have now become part of the slow play problem.

When I play with my gf, she picks her ball up from the rough, moves it to the fairway and tees it up. Thank goodness. The times she's tried to hit out of the rough resulted in 2-3 whiffs followed by a shank into a ditch. What do you think would happen if I added up all those penalty strokes and wrote down a 15 on the scorecard? Nobody would have any fun.

(She does best at par-3s, and that's the best set-up for her, but we don't have any par-3s within 100 miles of here, so she has to play on a regular course.)

She's getting better and if she sticks with it one day she'll be good enough to play tee-to-green (not tee it up where my tee shot lands) and have a decent score and good time while following the rules.

[Pepperturbo]

bermuda... it's moving the ball like you describe that makes that day more bearable and enjoyable for your wife, and for you knowing your spending fun time together. My wife plays to 13, but didn't when we met. One of the reasons I married her was she liked to play golf and she didn't complain when it started raining.

I've seen it where someone I was playing with either mistakenly or on purpose didn't count all their strokes. He said 8, I counted 11. I seldom find myself needing to tell others how to play or count. Some people whether skilled or not, aware of the rules or not, still feel bad in knowing they stink at the game. I have no interest in making others feel bad. Sadly some people need to make others feel bad, so they can feel good.

I can't count the number of times I've told someone to use the hand wedge out of bunker or kick the ball into the fairway. I see those comments as "acts of kindness" for people that are trying but don't have the tools. Maybe they will never have the tools; then again I've seen it go the other way. A while back a friend that bumped, kicked, hit breakfast ball after breakfast ball made a turn in his game. He's now playing a legit game by the rules to a 22 index and teases me when I take a gimme. That makes me feel good especially so because he says playing golf with me is fun. I take joy from knowing I affect people that way; you can too.

[dirtytrees]

HA HA HA HA HA

This thread Is exactly why I know 4 people I will golf with and thats it( granted they're the only other members below 40).At my club, we have plenty of these self righteous people pointing out rule violations, talking about the honorable old days, blah blah blah......ha , get over yourself.

Golf is a microcosm of your life..........that's just sad for you if it is, it's a game nothing more, relax

Im not sure if this thread is even serious or a bunch of posters with dry senses of humor, ..........please tell me its humor

[green-keeper]

Sawgrass, on Nov 10 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

I don't feel this way. The rules are not just important when playing for money or in a tournament. They are always important as they define the game. Without them you might as well take a hit off the tee on each hole, take a gimmie on the next shot, card a 36 and go home with a smile on your face.

Whether playing in a tournament, money game or a "causal" game of golf, I care very much about playing well and scoring well. Not nearly as much about how I do against others. If I did choose to define what rules I would abide by I would miss something. I would miss the satisfaction of succeeding at this great sport in it's most demanding form. That's the "something big" I refer to. And it far surpasses the satisfaction of believing you are succeeding at a game whose rules you decided to make up as you went along. (I'm not sure if I can make that feeling obvious, other than to say that I bet everyone who has taken a gimmie on a hole and went on to score a career-best round wishes in his/her heart that they had putted out.) It takes an investment to earn this satisfaction though. An investment in humility.

I'm all for people having fun however they can manage it in this tough world. But I firmly believe that on balance there is much more fun to be had by playing square. If that's being an uptight rules dude, then that's me.

Sawgrass,
this is exactly, what I feel about our wonderfull sport - couldn't have expressed it better.
Too many golfers seem to follow only two rules:
1. Don't do anything, which might delay Your game or the game of the group behind You, no matter, how crowded the course in front of You is.
2. Have fun with Your game, no matter how bad You play.
And taking penalty strokes or missing putts is never fun, because it spoils the score.

Unfortunately this kind of players are the majority on many golf courses, so that golfers, who follow the rules are blemished to spoil others recreation time.

Greenkeeper

[scs1070]

Well said Sawgrass. I played with my dad over the weekend, he is a life long 18 handicapper. I hit a ball in the water and go about my own business and take the correct drop.....>Dad hits in the same water and does what he wants to do. He's just out trying to enjoy himself and spend time with freinds.

I think there is a time to play things by the rules. Anyone who takes there game serious knows what they really shot or knows when they should take a drop/re-tee it.

[mike03a3]

Interesting thread.

I'm a beginner - I just started this spring. I certainly cannot claim to play by the rules - I don't even know what they all are yet. That's one of the reasons I read this forum - to learn more about them.

But, with few exceptions, I follow the rules as I currently understand them, and my adherence to the rules has improved as my game has improved and I've learned more about the rules.

I don't take mulligans, gimmes, etc. - I have no way to measure my improvement if I don't keep score, and it isn't "keeping score" if you don't actually get all the way from the tee to the hole and count all the strokes in between. For the same reason, I don't improve my lie. I'm trying to learn, and to me that includes dealing with where it landed. But I do hit provisional balls frequently to avoid returning to the tee and holding everyone up when I lose one. One of the courses I play a lot has a ton of clover in the rough. If your ball winds up in one of those spots, there's a good chance you won't find it unless you actually step on it. When that happens unexpectedly, and I didn't hit a provisional, I just drop a ball where I think it landed and take the penalty as though I had returned to the tee and hit it to the same place. I'm slow enough with going back to the tee.

My other recurring rules violation is hitting extra balls. If I screw up a shot, and there's nobody right behind, I'll often replay the shot to see if I can do it right. I never play the second shot, I'll continue with the original ball and just pick up the "do-over" when I get to it. Hitting another shot doesn't change my score in any way, but it helps me to learn and improve sometimes.

I recently broke 100 for the first time, and backed it up this weekend with two sub-100 rounds. If I hit mulligans, improved my lie, didn't take penalties etc., I would have no satisfaction at all in that achievement.

[OneBowTie]

Sawgrass, on Nov 9 2009, 11:53 PM, said:

Just because Arnold Palmer made a game up for amateurs to enjoy on occasion doesn't mean that it's the same as golf. Nor does it mean that the scores made therein should be compared to the scores in a legitimate game of golf.

Hell, he even once intentionally endorsed an illegal driver. (I'm sure some of the posters here would argue that illegal drivers are acceptable because by adding yards they help in the fight against slow play.) (Or because they help in the fight against old-fashioned elitisim.)

Palmer certainly played by the rules when he was playing against other pros. You can play that game too if you choose. And if you dare.

Please don't water down the demanding game of golf with gimmies and mulligans and the like. It's not in your soul's best interest.

I don't believe it was Arnold who invented Dog Fights and other variations of golf..... However, Arnold definitely knows how to spread the joys of any and all forms of golf.....

as for what Arnie once endorsed..... hey, I still have the Sears shotgun Arnie ONCE endorsed.... and I still see tons of Cadillacs driving around that say Arnold Palmer on the back of them..... as for the illegal driver, do you mean it was illegal to sell.... or was it illegal under the rules of USGA AND R&A to use in competitions...... who really cares if he endorsed a not approved for competition driver

Arnie has done so much for the enhancement and improvement of golf for the masses.....

if I was playing on tour..... you bet i'd play 100% by the rules... but since that isn't the case.... I'll continue to enjoy golf the way its supposed to be enjoyed.....

[Sawgrass]

OneBowTie, on Nov 11 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

if I was playing on tour..... you bet i'd play 100% by the rules... but since that isn't the case.... I'll continue to enjoy golf the way its supposed to be enjoyed.....

I see that you don't recognize the USGA or R&A as authorities on how the game of golf is "supposed to be enjoyed."

I suppose you see yourself as an objective authority. Well, good for you I guess.

Believe it or not, while I don't agree with your approach, I sincerely hope you have fun every time you play.

[OneBowTie]

Sawgrass, on Nov 11 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

OneBowTie, on Nov 11 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

if I was playing on tour..... you bet i'd play 100% by the rules... but since that isn't the case.... I'll continue to enjoy golf the way its supposed to be enjoyed.....

I see that you don't recognize the USGA or R&A as authorities on how the game of golf is "supposed to be enjoyed."

I suppose you see yourself as an objective authority. Well, good for you I guess.

Believe it or not, while I don't agree with your approach, I sincerely hope you have fun every time you play.

you sure seem to SUPPOSE or worse think you know what I consider myself to be...... I consider myself to enjoy golf... period

while I fully respect the USGA & R&A..... myself... apparently unlike you...... can allow for the separation and or variation of golf games.....

sawgrass..... I play alot of golf....and in doing so I don't get all bent out of shape or judgmental of the surrounding players.... and while you can sit here and say you only play 100% the rules of golf.....excuse me if I think that you probably do not play golf at clubs or courses with regular groups..... because like it or not.... golf has evolved to accommodate masses with the additions of rules variances ..... believe me, there is hardly a club in America that doesn't know the membership is taking breakfest balls on the first tee and gimme putts..... and that is why there are now the additional LOCAL RULES put into place..... do you honestly think golf courses that first opened thought they would have to add hazards which used to play as OB.... and what about drop areas....

we could go on forever about rules and what should or shouldnt be.... but the truth is....99% of all golfers really don't know the rules or how to abide by them

[mark m]

mike,

You're doing good breaking 100 that quickly. Keep it up and you'll be under 90 before long.
I like your approach to playing by the rules as well. You'll learn them as you go. I would recommend picking up the Decisions on the Rules of Golf to just glance at from time to time.
At your stage, playing the ball down and putting out are the most important habits to form. Hitting a few extra here and there is OK if as long as you're not slowing anyone down. If you join a golf club in the future (and have a Handicap Index) - then the rules go to another level. It just goes with the territory.

BTW: You have a good set of clubs for a beginner. I'm curious about your putter. You list it as Floyd Mangrum.....I know there was a Lloyd Mangrum (and brother Ray)....he was good back in the 1940's....are you sure it's Floyd?

Thanks,
MM

[dirtytrees]

Does all this mean Arnold Palmer has no soul?

And are we talking James Brown soul, or everlasting soul?

HA HA, this is the most enjoyable thread ever.

[OneBowTie]

dirtytrees, on Nov 11 2009, 07:47 PM, said:

Does all this mean Arnold Palmer has no soul?

And are we talking James Brown soul, or everlasting soul?

HA HA, this is the most enjoyable thread ever.

exactly!!!

yep next time I get an invite to play with Palmer .... I guess I should say.... Nah, he is a BAD MAN!!!!

maybe he's just a lost soul....

[Bomb and Gouge]

If you can't play by the rules AND keep pace, GET THE F. OFF OF THE COURSE!

[mike03a3]

MarkM

Thanks. I did buy a rule book and read it (which is clearly not the same thing as understanding the rules!) I'll take your advice and read the decisions as well.

You are absolutely correct, it is Lloyd, not Floyd. Thanks for pointing out my mistake, I corrected my sig. I got that putter when I was a kid, probably 13. My dad was trying to get me interested in playing golf, and I did play a few times a year with him forty-five to fifty years ago, before he died. I kept it all these years for sentimental reasons.

Mike

[mikpga]

I do.

[shift]

btw, anybody adhere to the rule about the ball moving on the green (gust of wind) and you've addressed the ball? same rule that paddy got nailed for in one of the majors this year? that's one rule i will never follow. makes absolutely no sense.

[mark m]

Nice story about your putter....I was curious...I wasn't sure if there was a cousin "Floyd" out there making putters!

[LOVE4LPGA]

I prefer the rules because I think it makes the game more fun and interesting.

But I have given up on others.

So I say, if no money or HCing, then I don't care. But makes me wonder about the HC data we see in aggregate.

However, if someone is keeping a scorecard, and does not play the rules, I will NEVER play with them again. The scorecard deserves the respect of an honest number.

[OneBowTie]

mike03a3, on Nov 12 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

MarkM

Thanks. I did buy a rule book and read it (which is clearly not the same thing as understanding the rules!) I'll take your advice and read the decisions as well.

You are absolutely correct, it is Lloyd, not Floyd. Thanks for pointing out my mistake, I corrected my sig. I got that putter when I was a kid, probably 13. My dad was trying to get me interested in playing golf, and I did play a few times a year with him forty-five to fifty years ago, before he died. I kept it all these years for sentimental reasons.

Mike

you are spot on..... having a rule book and getting 2 people to understand it are too entirely different things.... just pull the rule book out in front of any foursome, and almost always you will get 4 different interpretations .....

It is amusing reading about how all these people follow all the rules..... when in reality, they probably don't know the rules

[cherokee8215]

If I am playing in a tournament, match, or any money is on the line (all 3 of which are very rare for me) then I will follow the rules to the best of my knowledge. I say "best of my knowledge" because I am no rules expert, and don't know what to do, if for example, I hit a tee shot into a pond, it hits a rock and ricochets into my opponents golf bag, then a bird picks it up and drops it in the hole, and the flagstick is not in place.

In pretty much all other rounds I follow most of the rules. I'll sometimes take a mulligan on the first tee. If there is a giant glob of mud on my ball I'll take it off. I refuse to hit off tree roots or rocks under any circumstances, so I'll move it a foot or two. Sometimes I'll play an extra shot for practice that doesn't count. I really doubt any of these subtract materially from my score. Maybe one stroke a round if that. From playing practice rounds playing 2 balls at a time, I've learned that just because someone takes a mulligan, improves their lie, etc. doesn't mean that they will necessarily score better than not having taken those actions. For example, on one two-ball round, I hit a drive into a hazard and had to take a penalty. Flubbed the second shot off that one. Other drive was straight down the fairway. Four putted that ball. Ended up making a 5 on the "penalty ball" and a 7 on the "mulligan ball."

I play for fun, relaxation, and to enjoy the scenery. I don't get caught up on rules and regulations. I have enough of that to deal with at work.

[juggernaut33]

...play strictly by the rules. I want to know I'm actually scoring what I'm scoring and not because I took mulligans. Besides, I play with people who play by the rules. The only rule that's tough to abid by is having to go back and re-tee cuz of a lost ball...the marshall will never let that happen!

[takafam]

This is the 1st year of following the rules (joined the men's club) & I can say I enjoyed it. It is amazing when I play with the family how many strokes don't get counted on lost balls & other rules with penalty strokes. Sometimes I lose but sometimes I win & it is good with me as I enjoy their company way more than I care about the rules.

The rule that bugs me is when I hit it in the trees/rough or some other unknown place due to no one seeing it, having to re tee & take the penalty. Then watching the pro's hit it into the same places but a guy pops out of the trees with a big white stick waving for the player to see (NOT FAIR!!!!). I understand the why of it, it just gets my nerve, I also remind myself if I keep it in the fairway its not a problem. I'm okay with the rule just not the best in the world getting away with it because they have a larger gallery and more people to bounce it off of or locate it for them. I believe the rules must be fair for everyone. Besides if it was my club every time a Pro V1 landed in the crowd they would just pick it up and continue on or play it like it was their top flite xl 5000.

I do play by the rules though.

[jontyc]

I don't feel anyone has the right to tell someone how to play their game if it doesn't affect anyone else negatively.

Ball on a tree root, fine, kick it off. Drop a ball where it went out-of-bounds.

Post the score, have a vanity index if your ego needs it. Still doesn't effect anyone else unless you take the position of a legit player in an index-limited event.

You'd be a fool to enter a bet and play by the Rules if the others don't.

The US Index is mocked around the world because of this. There's even a joke about it - where the Scot, the Brit, the Aussie and the American are playing a game and the American hits his tee shot out-of-bounds. He declares he'll take his mulligan. The others look strangely at each other and the American says "a mulligan, you know, maybe you call them something different back home?". Simultaneously the others respond, "We call it three-off-the-tee.".

Still, no-one says handicaps have to be consistent around the world but it illustrates the net effect of gimmes, mulligans, not counting hole scores and in general playing not in an organized tournament setting.

[jontyc]

Rules only seem ridiculous when they're not known. For example, using tees and a club when dropping was mentioned as painful earlier, but they're not required to legally drop.

If I see you breaking a Rule and we have a bet on, you'll hear about it. I'd expect the same back. The Rules are the only unbiased party here and there's a high chance I know 'em better than you. I'm not going to watch you kick a ball off a divot when I've just shanked a ball out-of-bounds because of one.

If I see you breaking a Rule in a stroke play tournament, I'll tell you. If I don't tell you, then I'm breaking a Rule and have not done the duty expected of all players entered.

But what you do amongst your own mates is your business.

[Nicky6]

For me, my own measurement of ability and progression as a golfer is measured by two yardsticks, directly related to each other: Par for the course, via legal number of strokes.

I try to be aware of as many RoG as possible, but am in no position to recite the entire book from memory and nor do i want to.

I'm fortunate enough to be a member of private clubs and timesheets are limited to manageable intervals, but there is an expectation of all golfers to play within the rules of the game. It's a game based entirely around etiquette and guidelines, with penalties awarded for non-compliance. That's why i started playing, that's why i love it.

[jaiman]

Speedly, on Nov 7 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

The first is when I'm on an extremely busy course, and I hit one off-line enough to where there is doubt as to whether or not it's actually OB. In those cases, to keep up the speed of play for those behind me, I'll go look for a minute, and I'll drop as closely as possible to the place where I reasonably thought the ball ended up, and take a penalty stroke. Yeah, I know, it's stroke and distance, but I'm not gonna hold up the course behind me for five minutes for that clause of the rules.

This is similar to a modification of the rules that I tend to play by with my friends. If the course is packed, and you lose you ball, either OB (not knowing it was OB from the tee) or just in the rough or forest, we treat it as an uplayable lie and take a drop and a 1 stroke penalty. The reason is we can't justify spending 5 minutes to look for the ball and going back to the tee box takes too long. So the one stroke penalty should compensate for those times that you would find the ball with a bit more effort and be able to play on, while still penalising you for not being able to find it quickly.

Whether using this "rule" or playing strictly, the scores of our consistent players are the same on average but it keeps the pace up for those behind us.

[OneBowTie]

I have been following this thread along.... and I see there are many that admit to "adjustments" to the rules here and there..... and there are those that claim to always play by the rules....

I have played golf at various states, country's, and can say this.... it is rare for me to find where the rules of golf are strictly adhered too.....

I find that at almost all clubs have some kind of dogfight on a weekly basis..... and those games almost always allow for some sort of rule adjustment .....

I think from experience that public courses have the worst offenders..... as when I play public links, I almost always find the course full of people fluffing the ball and disregard to hazards.....

Yet when I play private tracts, they all almost always allow 2 off the first tee and almost always give putts in the leather.....

for me..... It doesn't bother me either way..... I can play one off the tee and putt them all out.....or I can blend in socially and except that kick back of my ball from 8 inches from the cup....

we can all sit here and talk about honor and anything else.... but you are only kidding yourselfs....if golf was so honorable, why don't all y'all leave your bag at the bag drop off and not worry about your $1000 clubs... golf is full of people..... from all walks ..... the honor left golf when it quit being a game of royalty along time ago and even then, I'm not so sure it was honorable as we might want to think..... royalty has their fair share of scandal

[bermuda]

jaiman, on Nov 16 2009, 10:59 AM, said:

Speedly, on Nov 7 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

The first is when I'm on an extremely busy course, and I hit one off-line enough to where there is doubt as to whether or not it's actually OB. In those cases, to keep up the speed of play for those behind me, I'll go look for a minute, and I'll drop as closely as possible to the place where I reasonably thought the ball ended up, and take a penalty stroke. Yeah, I know, it's stroke and distance, but I'm not gonna hold up the course behind me for five minutes for that clause of the rules.

This is similar to a modification of the rules that I tend to play by with my friends. If the course is packed, and you lose you ball, either OB (not knowing it was OB from the tee) or just in the rough or forest, we treat it as an uplayable lie and take a drop and a 1 stroke penalty. The reason is we can't justify spending 5 minutes to look for the ball and going back to the tee box takes too long. So the one stroke penalty should compensate for those times that you would find the ball with a bit more effort and be able to play on, while still penalising you for not being able to find it quickly.

Whether using this "rule" or playing strictly, the scores of our consistent players are the same on average but it keeps the pace up for those behind us.

I don't mind if you don't retee to save time. But when I have done this I have taken a two-stroke penalty: one for the added stroke you would have taken if had followed the rules and one for the penalty. If you had hit a provisional and it magically would have been right where you are dropping, you would be lying three and hitting four.

But the main thing is hit a provisional.

[Sawgrass]

OneBowTie, on Nov 16 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

we can all sit here and talk about honor and anything else.... but you are only kidding yourselfs....if golf was so honorable, why don't all y'all leave your bag at the bag drop off and not worry about your $1000 clubs... golf is full of people..... from all walks ..... the honor left golf when it quit being a game of royalty along time ago and even then, I'm not so sure it was honorable as we might want to think..... royalty has their fair share of scandal

We can do more than "sit here and talk about honor." We can play with honor. In so doing we can inspire others to play with honor. We can be totally accepting of those who choose to play loose with the rules, but remain steadfast in holding ourselves to the highest of standards. We can win converts to the belief that people with high sporting ideals are particularly welcome in the game of golf. We can advocate playing by the rules, as others before us have done in this great game.

Yes, talking about honor and the rules doesn't stop some people from stealing golf clubs. Or others from sandbagging. But it does remind people that unlike many other sports (within which fooling the referee is part of the game), our sport has at its core a level of integrety that, with our care, will continue to make it truly special.

[OneBowTie]

Sawgrass, on Nov 16 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

OneBowTie, on Nov 16 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

we can all sit here and talk about honor and anything else.... but you are only kidding yourselfs....if golf was so honorable, why don't all y'all leave your bag at the bag drop off and not worry about your $1000 clubs... golf is full of people..... from all walks ..... the honor left golf when it quit being a game of royalty along time ago and even then, I'm not so sure it was honorable as we might want to think..... royalty has their fair share of scandal

We can do more than "sit here and talk about honor." We can play with honor. In so doing we can inspire others to play with honor. We can be totally accepting of those who choose to play loose with the rules, but remain steadfast in holding ourselves to the highest of standards. We can win converts to the belief that people with high sporting ideals are particularly welcome in the game of golf. We can advocate playing by the rules, as others before us have done in this great game.

Yes, talking about honor and the rules doesn't stop some people from stealing golf clubs. Or others from sandbagging. But it does remind people that unlike many other sports (within which fooling the referee is part of the game), our sport has at its core a level of integrety that, with our care, will continue to make it truly special.

what you preach sounds honorable Sawgrass..... however, to paint with the broad brush that those who take two on the first tee or tap in putts as less then honorable.... is just far fetched nonsense

I for one do not look at many of the people I have played golf with as anything less then honorable and of great integrity ..... even if they take a gimme .... golf is and will continue to be a great social outlet in life, where some pretty great people will play a game that differs from the exact rules of the USGA

like it or not..... the game of golf has evolved far beyond its beginnings.... and thankfully so, as the rules do allow golf to be enjoyed by masses rather then punished for trying....

as far as golf bringing or being loaded with folks of high sporting ideals..... yep....its amazing what you can learn at the 19th hole, all from golfers

[jaiman]

bermuda, on Nov 16 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

jaiman, on Nov 16 2009, 10:59 AM, said:

Speedly, on Nov 7 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

The first is when I'm on an extremely busy course, and I hit one off-line enough to where there is doubt as to whether or not it's actually OB. In those cases, to keep up the speed of play for those behind me, I'll go look for a minute, and I'll drop as closely as possible to the place where I reasonably thought the ball ended up, and take a penalty stroke. Yeah, I know, it's stroke and distance, but I'm not gonna hold up the course behind me for five minutes for that clause of the rules.

This is similar to a modification of the rules that I tend to play by with my friends. If the course is packed, and you lose you ball, either OB (not knowing it was OB from the tee) or just in the rough or forest, we treat it as an uplayable lie and take a drop and a 1 stroke penalty. The reason is we can't justify spending 5 minutes to look for the ball and going back to the tee box takes too long. So the one stroke penalty should compensate for those times that you would find the ball with a bit more effort and be able to play on, while still penalising you for not being able to find it quickly.

Whether using this "rule" or playing strictly, the scores of our consistent players are the same on average but it keeps the pace up for those behind us.

I don't mind if you don't retee to save time. But when I have done this I have taken a two-stroke penalty: one for the added stroke you would have taken if had followed the rules and one for the penalty. If you had hit a provisional and it magically would have been right where you are dropping, you would be lying three and hitting four.

But the main thing is hit a provisional.

That is a better idea for the OBs.

We generally have more of an issue with seeing the ball roll into fescue or long rough, and rather than spend the allowed 5 minutes with 4 of us looking for it (and by our estimation finding it 50% of the time) just take a quick look and the 1 stroke. In the long run it seems to result in the same scores vs searching really hard for all balls and playing the ones that are found, but makes the rounds much quicker.

[mrhills0146]

This is an interesting topic.

When I play solo (often) many times I don't even really "play." These are usually late afternoon rounds with no one to be found on the course, particularly at this time of year. I might play "worst ball" with myself and I might try two or three different shots from the same spot. This is practice, not play.

If I'm playing with someone, whether I know them or not, I'm okay with the following:

- Can't find your ball off the tee? Not a chance would I expect someone to go back to the tee and hit again. Especially this time of year when balls get lost under leaves just off the fairway (or sometimes even in the fairway!) all of the time. Ditto for a ball that ends up being OB - just drop one and move on. Is it better to play a provisional if you think there might be any doubt? Sure. But why would you play a provisional if you hit your drive just into the rough - not way off line? This time of year in the Southeast, those shots get lost all of the time because of the leaves. If you ask someone to go back to the tee and hit - or if you yourself insist on doing so (if the course is reasonably busy) then you are being unreasonable and assuming "it's all about me."

- Ball came to rest on a root or on a rock? Just move it. This isn't Q-school. We're not playing a $1,000 Nassau with automatic two-down presses. I don't want to rush you to the hospital because of unwillingness to move the ball two inches. I'm not talking about a twelve-foot-bump out of the crap and into the short rough, but if you need to roll it a few inches so as not to risk injury, then I'm not going to penalize you unless you insist.

- Ball in bunker? I have no problem with taking a rake in with you and laying it down while you hit the shot. Even in a tournament I probably wouldn't call someone out on this. You're not gaining an advantage by doing this and unless we've got caddies, it DOES speed things along without any undue effect on play.

- Some groups I play with will hit two balls off of the first tee, especially first thing in the morning if it's 45 degrees and we haven't hit balls at the range. This is a case by case situation, and unlike some, I won't get my knickers all in a bunch over this.

I agree about gimmie putts though - I very much prefer to finish all of my putts, and I'll politely decline a gimmie every time. I still give gimmies - I'll say "that's good, but if you want to putt it out, go for it" if it's someone I don't know.

[phil75070]

The big question happens to be by which Rules, stroke play or match play? Although we have to turn in scores for every round we play we play match play and the Rules between the two forms of play do differ in some areas. One thing we do is, lose a ball in the rough in stroke play and it is back to where the stroke was last played. In our match play, we basically concede the hole, drop one, play on and put down an X with the most likely score for the hole. Speeds up play and chances of winning the hole after losing a ball are slim anyway.

[Sawgrass]

mrhills0146, on Nov 17 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

- Ball came to rest on a root or on a rock? Just move it. This isn't Q-school. We're not playing a $1,000 Nassau with automatic two-down presses. I don't want to rush you to the hospital because of unwillingness to move the ball two inches. I'm not talking about a twelve-foot-bump out of the crap and into the short rough, but if you need to roll it a few inches so as not to risk injury, then I'm not going to penalize you unless you insist.

- Ball in bunker? I have no problem with taking a rake in with you and laying it down while you hit the shot. Even in a tournament I probably wouldn't call someone out on this. You're not gaining an advantage by doing this and unless we've got caddies, it DOES speed things along without any undue effect on play.

I agree about gimmie putts though - I very much prefer to finish all of my putts, and I'll politely decline a gimmie every time. I still give gimmies - I'll say "that's good, but if you want to putt it out, go for it" if it's someone I don't know.

Mr. Hills,

There is no prohibition from taking a rake into a bunker and laying it down before you hit, just so long that you are not intentionally doing so to test the surface. So you are not "giving" yourself anything by adopting this policy of yours in bunkers.

Regarding the tree roots or rocks, one can certainly take relief and stay within the rules simply by declaring the ball unplayable. It's interesting to me that you choose to "give" yourself free relief from this occasional problem, but don't give yourself short putts, which is certainly a much more common situation.

Of all the rules that people shortcut, the only one I truly understand is the stroke and distance rule for an unexpected ob or lost ball. I certainly "get" that it is unacceptable on a crowded public course to search for five minutes and then walk back to the tee. I always carry an extra ball in my pocket to make it quicker to hit provisionals, and I freely hit them, to minimize this sort of upset. If I do find myself in that sort of situation though, I'll drop one where I thought it was going to be, and take a two stroke penalty to simulate where I might have been if I had gone back to the tee and hit. It ruins my round for me, but I do it because I feel I don't really have a choice. I wish the USGA would sanction such a two-shot penalty in casual rounds so I wouldn't have to feel like my whole round was a sham.

[bermuda]

mrhills0146, on Nov 17 2009, 10:59 AM, said:

This is an interesting topic.

When I play solo (often) many times I don't even really "play." These are usually late afternoon rounds with no one to be found on the course, particularly at this time of year. I might play "worst ball" with myself and I might try two or three different shots from the same spot. This is practice, not play.

If I'm playing with someone, whether I know them or not, I'm okay with the following:

- Can't find your ball off the tee? Not a chance would I expect someone to go back to the tee and hit again. Especially this time of year when balls get lost under leaves just off the fairway (or sometimes even in the fairway!) all of the time. Ditto for a ball that ends up being OB - just drop one and move on. Is it better to play a provisional if you think there might be any doubt? Sure. But why would you play a provisional if you hit your drive just into the rough - not way off line? This time of year in the Southeast, those shots get lost all of the time because of the leaves. If you ask someone to go back to the tee and hit - or if you yourself insist on doing so (if the course is reasonably busy) then you are being unreasonable and assuming "it's all about me."

Or the setting sun, which I had to hit into off one tee Sunday. I could tell the ball went left, but had no idea how far left or whether it went into the love grass in the rough. I thought about hitting a provisional, but would have had no more than a general idea where that one would have gone, either. I was about to drop one and take two strokes, but then found my original ball in a clump of love grass.

Quote

- Ball in bunker? I have no problem with taking a rake in with you and laying it down while you hit the shot. Even in a tournament I probably wouldn't call someone out on this. You're not gaining an advantage by doing this and unless we've got caddies, it DOES speed things along without any undue effect on play.

The USGA agrees with you: Rule 13.4

[Asleep]

I must admit to breaking one rule often...

Many times I'm hurrying to the teebox from my car (no warmup) on Fridays...

If I hit a poor drive, I'll "take a mulligan"/hit a second drive...

I never play the second drive, but I'm pretty sure practice/warm up shots on the course are illegal.


Ok, this house is clean.

[Sawgrass]

Asleep, on Nov 17 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

I must admit to breaking one rule often...

Many times I'm hurrying to the teebox from my car (no warmup) on Fridays...

If I hit a poor drive, I'll "take a mulligan"/hit a second drive...

I never play the second drive, but I'm pretty sure practice/warm up shots on the course are illegal.


Ok, this house is clean.

Hey, just announce that you're "hitting a provisional" in case your ball is lost, and you're all square with the rules on this one. No problem.

Most of my rounds are just for my personal satisfaction and not betting or tournament rounds. And I'm very rigid with myself about abiding by the rules. The course I frequently play has a tight ob left on the first hole, and more than once I've started my day three in the fairway because of an opening hook. I've often considered the legitimacy of standing there on the tee and formally announcing to no one in particular that, "I quit this round. I am now about to start a new round" before hitting again. As near as I can figure, this would still permit me to have a legitmate score. I've never actually done it though, because the fact that I could expand this concept by standing there and hitting drives until I get one I like is too "over the top." It certainly can't be done in a tournament, and I guess since every time I play I'm simulating that pressure, I can't get myself to do this.

[Boomermike]

birdieblair, on Nov 6 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

I am a believer in playing by the rules. I also hate gimmie putts, I don't consider a hole complete until hear the ball hit the bottom of cup.

Totally agree...the first time I ever birdied one particular par-4 at my regular course, the ball was resting two inches from the cup after my approach shot (dammit...that close to my only lifetime eagle). A buddy says "great shot...that's good" and starts to pick it up, and I told him "don't you dare." Might sound petty, but if I'm going to hit a 120-yard approach within two inches of the pin and card a birdie on the hole for the first time ever, I want to finish it with the ball coming off the blade of my putter and dropping into the cup. I think most on this board would feel the same way.