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Keeping left wrist cupped on backswing


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#1 madjsp

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:45 AM

Does keeping your left wrist cupped helped stop OTT?  I think I watched somewhere that the pros keep their left wrist cupped on their backswing, and this allows them to fall on the same plane that they swung back on.  Now, does this help stop OTT?  also, it feels like it would also keep your right wrist cocked into a great impact position if the cup is maintained.  Is this how all the good golfers do it?  It feels so unnatural it's hard to believe for me.


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#2 UK Surveyor

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:06 AM

I find quite the opposite as a left hander playing right handed I find it difficult to not overdo the 'cupping' sometimes particulary if I get too fast in the back swing, which in turn, with my old out to in swing used to leave me coming across the ball with the face wide open as a consequence of the cupping!

Had a lesson with Dan at the weekend who indicated that a degree of cupping should not be a problem, but I guess everything in moderation?

regards,
Martyn

#3 Hstead

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:14 AM

I don't think most pros cup their wrist at the top.  The most important thing is that the face is square.  Many guys that do cup their left wrist at the top have a really strong grip, and that is the way they keep their club face square.  If you cup your wrist at the top and the face is open, then most people are going to come down OTT even more to get the club face square at impact.  I think you would find that most pros have a relatively flat left wrist at the top with a square face, which makes it easier to come down on plane.

This has been my experience anyway.  An open face at the top will lead to an OTT move.
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#4 Professor D

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:12 PM

 madjsp, on Oct 20 2009, 08:45 AM, said:

Does keeping your left wrist cupped helped stop OTT? I think I watched somewhere that the pros keep their left wrist cupped on their backswing, and this allows them to fall on the same plane that they swung back on. Now, does this help stop OTT? also, it feels like it would also keep your right wrist cocked into a great impact position if the cup is maintained. Is this how all the good golfers do it? It feels so unnatural it's hard to believe for me.

Cupped left wrist at top is bad for OTT. Cupped left wrist at impact is death. If left wrist is cupped at top, you'll have to apply palmar-flexion to get it flat by impact. Players who come OTT don't do this well (not pros). Solution: Don't let left wrist get cupped in backswing.

#5 Dariusz J.

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 12:44 PM

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Cupped left wrist at top is bad for OTT. Cupped left wrist at impact is death. If left wrist is cupped at top, you'll have to apply palmar-flexion to get it flat by impact. Players who come OTT don't do this well (not pros). Solution: Don't let left wrist get cupped in backswing.

Good reasoning, Prof. However, try to look at this issue this way: if the palmar flexion can happen unintentionally thanks to our subconscious mind that "wants to hit the ball" ? If one can keep the wrist cupped till impact his/her clubhead would miss the ball going a lot above the ball.
I may be wrong, but paradoxially I give much more chances of flipping (breaking the wrist before impact) to those who had the wrist flat or bowed before than those who keep the dorsi flexion as long as possible (due to late lead anticlockwise forearm rotation). Perhaps what I said refers for a low plane swingers only, but this is exactly that can be observed in Hogan's swing.

Cheers


#6 madjsp

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:33 PM

what is the difference between cupped and bowed?

#7 Professor D

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:46 PM

 Dariusz J., on Oct 20 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Cupped left wrist at top is bad for OTT. Cupped left wrist at impact is death. If left wrist is cupped at top, you'll have to apply palmar-flexion to get it flat by impact. Players who come OTT don't do this well (not pros). Solution: Don't let left wrist get cupped in backswing.

Good reasoning, Prof. However, try to look at this issue this way: if the palmar flexion can happen unintentionally thanks to our subconscious mind that "wants to hit the ball" ? If one can keep the wrist cupped till impact his/her clubhead would miss the ball going a lot above the ball.
I may be wrong, but paradoxially I give much more chances of flipping (breaking the wrist before impact) to those who had the wrist flat or bowed before than those who keep the dorsi flexion as long as possible (due to late lead anticlockwise forearm rotation). Perhaps what I said refers for a low plane swingers only, but this is exactly that can be observed in Hogan's swing.

Cheers

Yes, that is what Hogan and most good ball-strikers do. The OTT, or "dub", as Bobby Jones called them, is not easily able to go from cupped at the transition to flat/bowed at impact. If they can learn to do it, great. If not, never cup. There's no right or wrong. The goal is to sqaure the clubface with the proper lag and attack angle at impact. Playing with a strong grip, flat left wrist, and slightly closed clubface is an alternative means to cure OTT. By all means, try to "roll" the face back to sqaure at impact first, as Hogan did. But remember, Hogan intentionally cupped his left wrist to open the clubface more to prevent a hook. The OTT player hardly needs to open his clubface more. He already can not sqaure it to the clubhead path at impact.

Edited by Professor D, 20 October 2009 - 04:52 PM.


#8 madjsp

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:06 PM

 texan_golf, on Oct 20 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

 madjsp, on Oct 20 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

Does keeping your left wrist cupped helped stop OTT? I think I watched somewhere that the pros keep their left wrist cupped on their backswing, and this allows them to fall on the same plane that they swung back on. Now, does this help stop OTT? also, it feels like it would also keep your right wrist cocked into a great impact position if the cup is maintained. Is this how all the good golfers do it? It feels so unnatural it's hard to believe for me.


It's called the "Harley Move" and if done correct, your hands can come in steeper and the club will not. This is what defined Hogan's success, Hogan said it was the cupping of the left wrist as to his Secret he reveled in Life Mag, that was his feel. It was the releasing of that cup that made it work. This is what I talk about in my book, and currently what I am working on in the thread I have been posting video's.


Okay, now I am really lost.  I thought a cupped wrist was when the left palm was facing more back towards your back foot than pointing out.  But now I think that is what they called a bowed wrist.  http://www.golfwrx.c...227361281-2.jpg

see how his left wrist is hinging like if there wasn't a club he could touch his inner forearm?  Is this cupped or bowed?  If it is bowed, that is what I meant.

#9 Dariusz J.

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:17 PM

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

But remember, Hogan intentionally cupped his left wrist to open the clubface more to prevent a hook.

Well, maybe yes, maybe no. One can achieve the lead wrist in a dorsi flexed position unintentionally by having a low swing plane that maxes out the lead forearm rotation. The result of even slight overtorque will be cupping the wrist joint. I rather do not believe Hogan focused about cupping his lead wrist since it wuld have been an invitation for a huge timing issue.
Not saying that he did not want to have it cupped according to his researches - but it can be done automatically easily.

Cheers


 madjsp, on Oct 20 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Okay, now I am really lost.  I thought a cupped wrist was when the left palm was facing more back towards your back foot than pointing out.  But now I think that is what they called a bowed wrist.  http://www.golfwrx.c...227361281-2.jpg

see how his left wrist is hinging like if there wasn't a club he could touch his inner forearm?  Is this cupped or bowed?  If it is bowed, that is what I meant.

Cup = dorsi flexion
Bow = palmar flexion

and for every case:
c-o-c-k = radial deviation
unc-o-c-k = ulnar deviation

Pics are here:

http://www.biokineti...i...hp?f=3&t=24

Cheers

#10 Double Gee

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:20 PM

 madjsp, on Oct 20 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

what is the difference between cupped and bowed?


+1

what we talking about in laymans terms


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#11 stevestrike

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:25 PM

That's a terrible angle in the photograph.  

Cupped left wrist is not good for OTT swinger/slicer.  

Cupped left wrist is bending your hand backwards (like giving someone a high-five)

Bowed, or flat left wrist is better for a slicer, and that is the feeling of reaching your fingers to touch your wrist on the same hand.

#12 skizix

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:27 PM

 Double Gee, on Oct 20 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

 madjsp, on Oct 20 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

what is the difference between cupped and bowed?


+1

what we talking about in laymans terms

When you gesture "stop" or "talk to the hand", you are cupping your wrist.  When you are offering your hand for your subservient, kneeling minions to kiss your ring...you are bowing it.

Edited by skizix, 20 October 2009 - 05:27 PM.


#13 madjsp

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:03 PM

 Dariusz J., on Oct 20 2009, 05:17 PM, said:

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

But remember, Hogan intentionally cupped his left wrist to open the clubface more to prevent a hook.

Well, maybe yes, maybe no. One can achieve the lead wrist in a dorsi flexed position unintentionally by having a low swing plane that maxes out the lead forearm rotation. The result of even slight overtorque will be cupping the wrist joint. I rather do not believe Hogan focused about cupping his lead wrist since it wuld have been an invitation for a huge timing issue.
Not saying that he did not want to have it cupped according to his researches - but it can be done automatically easily.

Cheers


 madjsp, on Oct 20 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Okay, now I am really lost.  I thought a cupped wrist was when the left palm was facing more back towards your back foot than pointing out.  But now I think that is what they called a bowed wrist.  http://www.golfwrx.c...227361281-2.jpg

see how his left wrist is hinging like if there wasn't a club he could touch his inner forearm?  Is this cupped or bowed?  If it is bowed, that is what I meant.

Cup = dorsi flexion
Bow = palmar flexion

and for every case:
c-o-c-k = radial deviation
unc-o-c-k = ulnar deviation

Pics are here:

http://www.biokineti...i...hp?f=3&t=24

Cheers


Thanks, that picture helped a lot!  Now, my question is, having a BOWED left wrist at the top of the backswing, is this a way to stop OTT?  I was obviously wrong with the cupped vs bowed, but now that I understand, my question is with bowed instead of cupped!

#14 Professor D

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:31 PM

 Dariusz J., on Oct 20 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

But remember, Hogan intentionally cupped his left wrist to open the clubface more to prevent a hook.

I rather do not believe Hogan focused about cupping his lead wrist since it wuld have been an invitation for a huge timing issue.


Hogan clearly explained in the 1955 Life magazine article that part of his "secret" was to cup the left wrist in the backswing to open the clubface more. I haven't seen a copy of this article around the internet, but I used to have a copy.

#15 madjsp

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:41 PM

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 06:31 PM, said:

 Dariusz J., on Oct 20 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

 Professor D, on Oct 20 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

But remember, Hogan intentionally cupped his left wrist to open the clubface more to prevent a hook.

I rather do not believe Hogan focused about cupping his lead wrist since it wuld have been an invitation for a huge timing issue.


Hogan clearly explained in the 1955 Life magazine article that part of his "secret" was to cup the left wrist in the backswing to open the clubface more. I haven't seen a copy of this article around the internet, but I used to have a copy.


Hogan's secret
Hogan is thought to have developed a "secret" which made his swing nearly automatic. There are many theories as to its exact nature. The earliest theory is that the "secret" was a special wrist movement known as "cupping under". This information was revealed in a 1955 Life magazine article. However, many believed Hogan did not reveal all that he knew at the time. It has since been alleged in Golf Digest magazine, and by Jody Vasquez in his book "Afternoons With Mr Hogan", that the second element of Hogan's "secret" was the way in which he used his right knee to initiate the swing and that this right knee movement was critical to the correct operation of the wrist.

Hogan revealed later in life that the "secret" involved cupping the left wrist at the top of the back swing and using a weaker left hand grip (thumb more on top of the grip as opposed to on the right side).

Hogan did this to prevent himself from ever hooking the ball off the tee. By positioning his hands in this manner, he ensured that the club face would be slightly open upon impact, creating a fade (left to right ball flight) as opposed to a draw or hook (right to left ball flight).

This is not something that would benefit all golfers, however, since the average golfer already slices or fades the ball. The draw is more appealing to amateurs due to its greater distance. Many believed that although he played right-handed as an adult, Hogan was actually left-handed, a belief that seemed corroborated by Hogan himself in his book "Power Golf". However, some mystery still remains about this since Hogan in subsequent interviews said that the belief of him being left-handed was actually a myth (noted in what was probably his last video interview and in his 1987 Golf Magazine interview).

In these interviews Hogan said that he was indeed a right hand player who early on practiced/played with a left hand club that had been given to him because it was all that he had and that it was this issue that brought about the myth that he was left-handed. This may be the reason that his early play with right-handed equipment found him using a cross-handed grip (right hand at the end of the club, left hand below it). In "The Search for the Perfect Golf Swing", researchers Cochran and Stobbs held the opinion that a left-handed person playing right-handed would be prone to hook the ball.

Even a decade after his death, amateurs and professionals continue to study the techniques of this consummate player, as evidenced by such books as Ben Hogan, The Man Behind the Mystique (Martin, 2002) and the more recent The Secret of Hogan's Swing (Bertrand and Bowler, 2006).

From wikipedia.

another link http://www.benhogan....book/chap2.html

and another http://www.answers.com/topic/ben-hogan

Edited by madjsp, 20 October 2009 - 06:44 PM.


#16 FanofSnead

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 10:24 AM

Sevam1 talks about this move in his e-book, but he doesnt refer to it as the "harley move" This same action is also discusssed in great deal in the book"Ben Hogans Magical Device"

Slicefixer on the other hand makes no mention of this active squaring of the face from the cupped position to flat at impact nor does Martinez who has also been using a Hogan based pattern.

My take is if the grip is strong enough and the upper left arm is connected to the upper body, the face should square up on its own as the hips give the hands a "free ride"  around low and left.

I horsed around with the Harley Move and did hit some nice shots but until you make it happen subconciously it may be tough to be consistent w/ it.

#17 madjsp

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:18 PM

So basically the left wrist is cupped at address and part of the take away, and then it flattens/bowed from the top to the impact?

#18 madjsp

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 04:34 PM

Just by putting my hands together and making sure the wrist is bowed on the way down, there is no way that the club could leak out.  I will try to work on this on the range.

#19 FanofSnead

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 04:59 PM

Hi Texas,
yes the right foot turing clockwise on the BS is Mike's (Sevam) "move" but in his ebook (have you read it?) he also mentions "tripping the shaft" which IS a squaring of the club face that he incorporates between the the DS and impact when the left wrist goes from cupped to flat or bowed at impact.

Maybe Mike could elaborate, but it is the same move referred to as the "secret" in the Hogans Magical Device book.

I'd still rather allow the face to square up via pivot/grip...

I'll have to check out your book, I love the Hogan stuff

#20 dap

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 07:35 PM


 texan_golf, on Oct 22 2009, 05:37 AM, said:

 FanofSnead, on Oct 21 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

Sevam1 talks about this move in his e-book, but he doesnt refer to it as the "harley move" This same action is also discusssed in great deal in the book"Ben Hogans Magical Device"

Slicefixer on the other hand makes no mention of this active squaring of the face from the cupped position to flat at impact nor does Martinez who has also been using a Hogan based pattern.

My take is if the grip is strong enough and the upper left arm is connected to the upper body, the face should square up on its own as the hips give the hands a "free ride" around low and left.

I horsed around with the Harley Move and did hit some nice shots but until you make it happen subconciously it may be tough to be consistent w/ it.


Sevam1's move is the clockwise pressure of the right foot, knee, lower thigh... The Harley Move is the uncupping of the left wrist and the cupping of the right wrist, that lays the club off, getting it below the right shoulder (Face pointing more to the sky), keeps the club from coming in too steep even if the hands do, moves the right elbow forward in position, and creates an angle in the bottom part of the thumb and wrist that hold lag.

Slicefixer and Martinez both do not believe that it is as important as I think it is although, both have it present in there swing. It is not a forced action but I think Hogan might of practiced it at some point from the greater amount he does it. Slicefixer believes it comes from from the weight of the club in transition on the down swing, and Martinez, I am not sure what his take on it is, I just know he believes it is not forced, but agrees it happens.

The phrase Harley Move was said by someone on golfwrx before I wrote my book and I used it because it was easier to describe the motion, I am not sure who said it, might have been Bantam? The move would not hurt some one that is OTT if they learned to preform it to get the club from coming in too steep, it would produce a cut fade if nothing else changes the face angle squaring. The Harley Move is "NOT" a move to square the face, it is to keep the club on or under plane, create lag, and keep the handle ahead of the club head on a more shallow arc. The face is squared by the rotation of the pivot, which is why Hogan played the ball so far forward.

You will also notice the cupping of the left wrist was done at setup / address and was maintained or even increased to the top of the back swing. This helped the reaction of the right wrist cup, putting the Harley Move into motion.. This also helped Hogan setup / alignment, much easier to get the angles right this way.


Mexico Video, Shows Harley well..

http://media.photobu...i...p;os=1&ap=1


Harley Thread from last year

http://www.golfwrx.c...h...209704&st=0

The shallowing of the shaft on the transition in my opinion is not just uncupping the left wrist and cupping the right.It can be done with a flat or even bowed left wrist.Trevino did it with a bowed left wrist and Sergio does it with flat.

I think Brady Riggs specialises in that move.He does it very well himself and he describes it as a quarter turn of the left forearm on the transition.

I too believe this move is more important than a lot of instructors give credit for.Perhaps they do it well themselves naturally and so think whats the big deal.They think it should happen naturally but not for most players.

This move gets the shaft on plane early plus the added benefit of loads of lag.


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#21 Jooma

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 01:07 AM

 stevestrike, on Oct 20 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

That's a terrible angle in the photograph.

Cupped left wrist is not good for OTT swinger/slicer.

Cupped left wrist is bending your hand backwards (like giving someone a high-five)

Bowed, or flat left wrist is better for a slicer, and that is the feeling of reaching your fingers to touch your wrist on the same hand.


#22 Jooma

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 01:09 AM

Spot on.
How to make flat/bowed left hand wrist?
I have a  strong grip to prevent slice but it makes cupped wrist worse.




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