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early vs. delayed wrist cock in backswing


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#1 wpfisher

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:45 PM

I was watching a tape of Ernie Els and saw that his wrist **** is very gradual or what I call delayed. Is this better than a early wrist ****? Which gets more power and which is more prone to swing problems, especially a slice.


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#2 taylormadefan

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 02:53 PM

No better or best, it's all about what works for you and your swing and feels natural.  Leadbetter is a fan of the early wrist **** (I believe); however, Ernie Els doesn't do it to a tee like Charles Howell used to.  Jim Hardy reccomends a late wrist **** to keep the left arm connected with the body.  

What matters power wise is that you do **** your wrists on the backswing and don't release them until late in the down swing.

#3 ateupwithgolf

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:02 AM

Jack Nicklaus was a gradual wrist **** man.

#4 vthokie1157

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 02:00 PM

i know that when i get early wrist **** my swing gets too long and a little too complicated but when i just get the body turning and don't think about it, i seem to get a ton of lag which is very helpful especially when you arent thinkin about it...so id go with delayed and try to turn with a good weight shift and stay on plane.

#5 titleistpro2

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:40 PM

nice pics....good show.  i like early wrist ****...look at Adam Scott's swing sequence from a long time ago, and he has one of the prettiest swings (although the mental game is yet to develop to its full potential)...he sets the wrists immediately and then simply "turns his shoulders."  best tip I ever incorporated...instant repeatability.


#6 Points

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 05:40 PM

Do you know how many great players don't set their wrists early?  Instead of listing everyone, let's look at a few playing the game today.  Woods, Goosen, Mickelson, Appleby, and many others.  To teach an early wrist set as an absolute is detrimental in that you discount lots of great players.  For the average amateur to work on this is difficult.  It makes the club move faster and can really hurt a player's tempo.  Their are times to teach this move and times not to which is up to the instructor.  Will it get the player better?

As far as comparing to know players to some Canadian pro is not all that great.  Look at pictures of any of the aforementioned players if you need proof.

#7 Points

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 09:09 PM

Setting the wrists early is by no means a modern concept. Boomer and Jones both talked about it extensively.  To think that these great players swings cannot withstand the test of time would be a very limited point of view in my opinion.
The question referred to the idea of setting the wrists early which is by no means a fundamental.  Never did I mention the low sweep and drag or the reverse C.  Only correctly pointed out that many top PGA players do not use the early wrist set.
I just believe that if the early wrist set is the cornerstone for a person's teaching it will in the end be limited at best.  Lots of ways to swing the club.  I also believe that Jack or Miller could compete at the highest level today using their old swings and play at the same level they did during their day but that is another thread in itself.  It is an old game and lots of ideas have been used, reused, and reauthored.

#8 Furrankee

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 11:50 PM

View PostSupergolfer, on May 18 2006, 08:28 PM, said:

View PostPoints, on May 18 2006, 07:09 PM, said:


Setting the wrists early is by no means a modern concept. Boomer and Jones both talked about it extensively.  To think that these great players swings cannot withstand the test of time would be a very limited point of view in my opinion.
The question referred to the idea of setting the wrists early which is by no means a fundamental.  Never did I mention the low sweep and drag or the reverse C.  Only correctly pointed out that many top PGA players do not use the early wrist set.
I just believe that if the early wrist set is the cornerstone for a person's teaching it will in the end be limited at best.  Lots of ways to swing the club.  I also believe that Jack or Miller could compete at the highest level today using their old swings and play at the same level they did during their day but that is another thread in itself.  It is an old game and lots of ideas have been used, reused, and reauthored.


I never said It was a modern concept.  I said the modern swing is moving in that direction. I'm not going to have a pissing match with you about wether or not miller & jack could or could not play today. Of course they could.  I don't think some of todays players could compete with guys on tour back then.  John Daily could never out drink Tom Weiskopf Even in his prime.  But The best swings are the easiest to repeat.  I couldn't repeat Jack Or Millers moves, My back hurts too much, I simply pointed out the flaws that I see all the time with people making a 1 piece takeaway.  Chill out and we will agree to disagree.


"I never said it was a modern concept. I said the modern swing is moving in that direction."

Supergolfer, the modern swing began with a modern concept which resulted in the "modern swing".

Your too caught up with word play when you make your retaliatory arguments.  Another member made a good point about Jones talking extensively on early wrist ****. Why don't you choose to refute that? You tend to pick and choose your battles.

#9 Furrankee

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 12:13 AM

View PostSupergolfer, on May 16 2006, 11:25 AM, said:

I prefer an earlier setting of the wrists, this promotes the proper amount of width at the top of your swing that is very often lost with a one piece takeaway.  When you try to get extra wide on the first move back, all the width collapses at the top and becomes very narrow on the first move down thus defeating the purpose of trying to get wide.  Jack made it work, but he had a little talent too. Twoods' (Haney) theory is that the club should be set proportional to the length of the swing.  1/4 swing: 1/4 wrist set, 1/2 swing: 1/2 wrist set, fullswing: full wrist set.  I prefer an early set while keeping the same axis through out the swing, as in don't try to gain or remove width in the swing, just maintain it.  camilo villegas, sergio garcia, sean o'hair & charl schwartzel all do this and have beautiful swings.

I totally agree with the above post though. Right on the mark with this.

#10 Points

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 06:57 AM

I guess I don't buy into the idea of the "modern swing"  It is a term that has been used often throughout the games history.  Are you referring to the last ten years?  Twenty years?  Etc.

Bubba, JB, and Garcia are all young players who do not use an early wrist ****.  These are the tour's young guns and the motion which you describe is not found in their swings.  It is close to a one to one ratio on early set to late set when it comes to great players.

My point is and will remain their are lots of ways to swing a golf club.  There are fundamentals which should always be taught and certain teachers have preferences.  Personal preferences can be dangerous if they are not based on massive research.  Early wrist set is a preference and more than one player has ruined their game trying to make this move.  On the flip side, more than one player has greatly improved.

Edited by Points, 19 May 2006 - 06:58 AM.


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#11 titleistpro2

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 12:29 PM

you're saying sergio doesn't have an early wrist set???  I don't know if I agree with that.  No proof though on my end.

Bubba definately has a late set, though, right on there.

#12 jleffell

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 09:03 PM

My pro, in helping me try an eliminate the sweeping back to the inside move has also instructed my to let momentum **** the wrist with no effort on my own of doing it.

Does this sound like a good idea - is this just another way of describing a delayed wrist ****?

#13 leekgolf

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 10:52 AM

I have been told by a few instructors that:

1. The timing of the wrist **** is determined by the length of the club, and thus swing length.

2. An early wrist **** makes you more likely to achieve a later release.

I have video software and about 40 TOUR pros swings. They seem to be allover the place. It does seem an early wrist set is usually seen when the player has a quicker tempo. There are great players that set later, and great players who set earlier. I think the timing probably needs to match your tempo..but I'm just guessing

Edited by leekgolf, 31 May 2006 - 10:53 AM.


#14 Mugnut

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 02:41 PM

Am I correct that a delayed wrist **** is inherent in a "connected" swing?  

I know that when I'm fighting my swing (part. with irons - like I was at the range on Monday), I usually work on the feel of delaying the setting of the wrists, which tends collaterally to cause the arms to feel like they stay more connected to the trunk (not literally, but connected in a "synched up" way - like the triangle stays intact longer).  My swing feels like it then shortens up some and becomes more compact, but I can really fire through impact and achieve good results using that "feeling."  

Put diffrently, to achieve more of a rotational, body oriented swing (which I try to work on), is is technically sound to strive to delay the wrist set?

Edited by Mugnut, 31 May 2006 - 02:50 PM.


#15 iontrap

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 04:16 PM

Until two weeks ago I was using the early wrist ****. I started to notice that far too often I would bend my elbows causing me to sh*nk the ball. Since I've been switching over to a delayed wrist ****, my swing feels more solid.


#16 FlyFish

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:47 PM

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but can somebody define what an early wrist **** is?  I used to "sweep load" but am working on getting my wrists cocked by the time the left arm is parallel to the ground in the backswing.  I got this idea from Bobby Clampett's book.  It seems to help me release better and is less reliant on timing.  Is that considered an early wrist ****?

Edited by FlyFish, 30 December 2008 - 04:48 PM.


#17 rankoutsider

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 05:12 PM

 FlyFish, on Dec 30 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but can somebody define what an early wrist **** is?  I used to "sweep load" but am working on getting my wrists cocked by the time the left arm is parallel to the ground in the backswing.  I got this idea from Bobby Clampett's book.  It seems to help me release better and is less reliant on timing.  Is that considered an early wrist ****?

That is the definiton of early wrist ****, which is also called "setting the club early."  If you look at video of Geoff Ogilvy when he won the Open in 06 you will see a kind of textbook early wrist set.  

I've experimented with this move in the past and will never go back to it, but it clearly works for some guys.

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#18 mikpga

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 08:27 PM

Sequence and timing...

I don't think Nick Price could swing like John Daly, nor the other way around...

Nick Price...Quick hinge, quick turn, and fire...Fast Tempo...

John Daly...Delayed hinge, big but gradual turn...Slower Tempo...

#19 scores

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:03 PM

One of the better discussion on this forum instead of talking about ghosts of the past...

#20 scores

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:42 PM

I remember Charles Howell doing a piece on this issue in GD about 5 years ago.. From what I got out of it is was not so much when the wrist were fully cocked(at) what point but more as to where in his swing he started the angle of wrist **** in his swing.

Whats late whats early?????? I think body type determines has something to do with it.. but I am no pro!!!

Maybe someone can add more value as to where a arly wrist **** starts and where a late wrist **** start??


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#21 rankoutsider

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:02 PM

Hey Scores:  Long time without hearing from you.  

I think most guys would say that an early wrist **** happens when the shaft of the club forms a 90 degree angle with the left arm  at approximately the 9 o'clock position.   A later wrist **** happens when the wrists set naturally as a product of the momentum of the clubhead as it goes back.

What I have found, and this is just my swing, is that an early wrist set all but guarantees that I will restrict my shoulder turn and pivot, pick the club up too steeply, extend my backleg in the bargain, and then chop down on the ball.  If I focus on keeping my hands in front of my chest through the swing, and keeping my lower hand away from my body for as long as possible, I make a better turn, load better, and hit it much better.  The latter swing has about as late a wrist set as you can imagine.

History is full of guys who have set it early, picked it up a bit, dropped the shaft into the slot, and turned their shoulders through impact.  Nick Price for sure, Ogilvy won the open doing this, there are pics of Tiger on the web swinging this way, and of Sergio too, I believe.  

I agree with Mike that the swing with the ealry set is a far more timing-specific swing.  More planes to it, more wheels within the bigger wheel of the shoulder turn, etc.  but it can work for sure.

Rob

Edited by rankoutsider, 02 January 2009 - 11:12 AM.


#22 HMSmai

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:04 PM

One is not better than the other..just needs to be compatible with the machine

#23 scores

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:11 PM

Thanks rank

#24 rankoutsider

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:41 PM

 HMSmai, on Dec 30 2008, 11:04 PM, said:

One is not better than the other..just needs to be compatible with the machine

This is very true.  In fact, if you have a certain kind of setup and pivot, you might need to set the club early: the key is learning your swing well enough to know what elements of your setup "preset" certain optimum backswing and release characteristics, and then to get everything working together as best you can.

That's my view.

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#25 rankoutsider

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:45 PM

 YYZlef, on May 30 2006, 10:03 PM, said:

My pro, in helping me try an eliminate the sweeping back to the inside move has also instructed my to let momentum **** the wrist with no effort on my own of doing it.

Does this sound like a good idea - is this just another way of describing a delayed wrist ****?

Your pro may have seen something in your pivot and release that suggests that an early wrist set is not the way to go.  If you were to put an early set into my swing, or try to, it would be really bad, I think, whereas I feel with the late set that I am hitting it well.

The other thing to consider is how well you can hold your leverage on the downswing.  With an early set, it is a bit easier, maybe, to keep your leverage into the ball; with a later set, you have to work on not springing the club too early.  Once you get it, though, it feels very good.


#26 Milo

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:26 AM

 titleistpro2, on May 20 2006, 01:29 AM, said:

you're saying sergio doesn't have an early wrist set???  I don't know if I agree with that.  No proof though on my end.

Bubba definately has a late set, though, right on there.

Sergio does not positively "****" the wrists at all. He waits until transition when he lets the wrists go totally limp and the reversal of direction creates lag that he holds until very late.

IMHO, if your fundamentals are correct you do not have to consciously **** and uncock the wrists at all. It should simply happen for you if your core and lower body are working correctly. Arms and hands are just moving; manipulation is not their job.

#27 dfw1500

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:38 AM

It does not matter if you set the club early/pre set the angle's and then carry their "angles"/ "power package" to the top and have the arms carried to the top by and with the body turn/pivot..........constantly set the club throughout the entire backswing, so the armswing, set and turn all meet at the top together...or a late set which will create a "late loading"/ "downcock"/ "float load"of the club ......there are personnal preferences/traits that some players will use and prefer over others......all that truly matters is that the club is set/loaded at the top/transition and that the club is on plane and fully aligned...it is different strokes for different folks....it never hurts to experiment with the "set".....same for the takeaway.....but youv'e got to get the right "combo" for YOU and YOUR game ;)

Cheers Dan

#28 hayam

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:28 AM

My personal opinion is early set  I've done both end of the spectrums and thus my opinion

Advantage is , if we want the movements as simple as possible.There is less movement in the pivot required at impact. More connection of the both arms and pivot , increased ability to keep the spine more centered with less shift, better ability to contact the low points, higher trajectory.. My experience for myself.

#29 tm22721

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:28 PM

So how much wrist set in SF's 9-3 drill ?

I think Geoff would say 90 degrees, ie max lag.

DFW ?

#30 Cmartingolf

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 02:54 AM

 wpfisher, on May 8 2006, 11:45 PM, said:

I was watching a tape of Ernie Els and saw that his wrist **** is very gradual or what I call delayed. Is this better than a early wrist ****? Which gets more power and which is more prone to swing problems, especially a slice.

Sounds to me like you are a slicer?

IMO, late set can produce more power. That said, if you are a slicer, you are doomed if you try and late set ala Sergio. Fix your clubface issues and you won't care where you set your wrists. The mass at the end of the stick will take care of things for you.


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