[502 to Right]

This recently happened to me. I teed off on a par 4 with trees down the right side of the fairway. I blocked the shot to the right and put it into the grove of trees. Thinking the ball may be lost, I teed up a provisional ball which landed in the fairway. I looked for the first ball and found it, but it was unplayable being in the middle of a bunch of trees. Dropping within 2 club lengths would not give me relief and I could not drop on a line from the hole to my ball because that would have been just as unplayable.

Under those circumstances can I declare the lie unplayable and play my provisional ball?

Common sense tells I can play the provisional but upon my review of the rules of golf it appears a provisional is only allowed for a lost ball--which mine was not.


BTW - I played the provisional.

[paulyb]

I emailed this EXACT scenario to the USGA years ago. You can not use the provisional as your stroke and distance option under the unplayable lie rule. You would have to actually play another ball from the tee in your case.

If there was a group waiting on the tee and this was a casual round I would have played the "provisional" hitting 4 as well.

[kevcarter]

27-2-c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

[502 to Right]

I can't say this surprises me, although it makes no common sense.

Thanks for the answer.

[kevcarter]

502 to Right, on Oct 16 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

I can't say this surprises me, although it makes no common sense.

Thanks for the answer.

Were you looking for common sense, or the correct answer. The two don't always match...

Kevin

[502 to Right]

kevcarter , on Oct 16 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

502 to Right, on Oct 16 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

I can't say this surprises me, although it makes no common sense.

Thanks for the answer.

Were you looking for common sense, or the correct answer. The two don't always match...

Kevin

So true.

[OpusX20]

502 to Right, on Oct 16 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

I can't say this surprises me, although it makes no common sense.

Thanks for the answer.

I actually think it does make sense (although I won't call it "common sense"). If you were allowed to use your provisional ball for this purpose it would give you the advantage of knowing exactly how one of your options under the unplayable ball rule would turn out. That could be very significant.

Allow me to give you a real example. I was playing in a tournament in college, and we came to a long par 3 (225 yards). One guy in my group hits it long left. Since we couldn't see it and there was OB long, he hit a provisional. This shot came to rest less than a foot away from the hole. We get up to the green and immediately find his first ball near a tree root with the tree between his ball and the green.

(Now lets pretend that there was no provisional. He would have a few options: 1) Play it as it lies, 2) Declare it unplayable and take 2 club-lengths relief, 3) Declare it unplayable and head back to the tee. Either way, it is very unlikely that he is going to get a bogey.)

Back to the real situation. He wants to ignore the first ball and play the provisional. By doing this he guarantees himself a bogey. We all get out our rule book and figure out that he cannot play the provisional. When we were going over the rules, one of the guys mentioned that he still had the option to go back to the tee. He said that there was no way he would go back 225 yards when he could take 2 club-lengths and be 20 yards away. I think this shows the unfair advantage the player would have if they would be allowed to play their provisional. They would (at least in this case) know what the outcome of one of their options would be.

[502 to Right]

Good example Opus. It actually does make sense.

Fortunately this was just a practice round and my misplaying of the rules was not a problem. It is good to know for the future, though.

[larrybud]

502 to Right, on Oct 16 2009, 11:40 PM, said:

Common sense tells I can play the provisional but upon my review of the rules of golf it appears a provisional is only allowed for a lost ball--which mine was not.


BTW - I played the provisional.

Right, only for a lost ball. It's short for "Provided the original ball is not found".

[ZBigStick]

If you knew that even if you found your ball in the right trees you would have no shot or options, you could have declared that ball 'unplayable' from the tee area and then played your third shot from the tee.

In a playoff maybe 5 years ago both Phil and Frank Lichlighter hit their tee balls way off into the gunch on the left. They both hit provisional and Phil didn't want to bother even looking for his ball and declaring it lost, unfortunately for him a marshal ran down to find it and he then he decided to declared it unplayable as it was now clearly not lost. He had to return back to the tee to play his third. (Phil did end up winning)

[OpusX20]

ZBigStick, on Oct 19 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

If you knew that even if you found your ball in the right trees you would have no shot or options, you could have declared that ball 'unplayable' from the tee area and then played your third shot from the tee.

In a playoff maybe 5 years ago both Phil and Frank Lichlighter hit their tee balls way off into the gunch on the left. They both hit provisional and Phil didn't want to bother even looking for his ball and declaring it lost, unfortunately for him a marshal ran down to find it and he then he decided to declared it unplayable as it was now clearly not lost. He had to return back to the tee to play his third. (Phil did end up winning)

Or just tee another ball up and hit it without saying anything. Now that's the ball in play and you don't have to worry about people looking for the original.

[BombingBeast13]

Haha i came upon this exact situation in the State Golf Tournament. They had me pick up the provisional and re-tee. Thank god because the provisional was in the woods too, but in bounds. Still made a quad if you are wondering.

[Billy Barou]

When I read threads like this one, I think a lot of the rules that we see as "making no sense" are ones that don't make sense because we all play on completely packed Muni courses that can have 1-2 sets of folks waiting to tee off behind you thus making it impossible to not feel like you are being a d-bag and going all the way back to a tee-box or some such and re-teeing an unplayable/OB ball.

I'm sure back a hundred years ago when you and your buddy may have been the only ones out on a particular course that day (or one of a very select few), these types of "inconveniences" weren't nearly as a PITA as they are nowadays.

The grief one gets from the other people playing on a crowded Saturday morning that have to allow you to do one of these antiquated rule procedures makes it an almost unbearable option!

-Kevin

[muxi87]

Quick tip: If you hit your ball into an area that is full of unplayable lies and have a provisional that is well off in play, give the original ball a quick glance only...if your ball isn't in plain site, declare it lost and abandon search. If the ball isn't in plain site, chances are you don't want to find it. Doing that, you can play the provisional.

[kevcarter]

muxi87, on Oct 22 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Quick tip: If you hit your ball into an area that is full of unplayable lies and have a provisional that is well off in play, give the original ball a quick glance only...if your ball isn't in plain site, declare it lost and abandon search. If the ball isn't in plain site, chances are you don't want to find it. Doing that, you can play the provisional.

If you see a ball during that "quick glance," you better try to identify it.

27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

There is no such thing as "declaring your ball lost." A ball becomes lost because of an action taken, or 5 minutes running out. Declaring your ball lost is a pretty common misconception.

Kevin

[Mike_C]

I must say, this is a good thread.....

[Sawgrass]

kevcarter , on Oct 22 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

muxi87, on Oct 22 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Quick tip: If you hit your ball into an area that is full of unplayable lies and have a provisional that is well off in play, give the original ball a quick glance only...if your ball isn't in plain site, declare it lost and abandon search. If the ball isn't in plain site, chances are you don't want to find it. Doing that, you can play the provisional.

If you see a ball during that "quick glance," you better try to identify it.

27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

There is no such thing as "declaring your ball lost." A ball becomes lost because of an action taken, or 5 minutes running out. Declaring your ball lost is a pretty common misconception.

Kevin

This area is a philosophically challenging one for me. The rules of golf are pretty much written from the persepctive of two or more people competing with each other. While I occasionally play in a tournament, or occasionally play against a friend or two for a few dollars, most of my golf is played by me against myself/the course, and what I care about most is my final score. So I of course must play by stroke play rules. But the issue of when to stop looking for a lost ball when you have hit a good provisional is an odd one when you have no human opponent. If a human opponent doesn't choose to go looking for your ball after you've hit a successful provisional, that's on him and you can comfortably choose to play your provisional. If he does find it, it's clear what you do then too. But if you're playing seriously against just yourself, it's an oddity. Look a little? Look hard, but just in places you'd benefit from finding it? Look ruthlessly, as if you had been playing against an opponent and had holed your provisional? Who "protects the field" when there is no field to protect? I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this.

Sometimes it's really, really hard to figure out the right thing to do. And given the fact that I care far more about such issues than anyone I play with, trying to talk about it (with anyone other than the several dedicated souls I've found on this board) to work it out only brings me somewhat-deserved and perhaps-understandable ridicule. (Maybe there should be a seperate branch of sports psychology dealing with the Rules of Golf. Or maybe that ought to be general psychology rather than sports pshchology.) Okay, I'm going to try to relax now.

[kevcarter]

Sawgrass, on Oct 23 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

kevcarter , on Oct 22 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

muxi87, on Oct 22 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Quick tip: If you hit your ball into an area that is full of unplayable lies and have a provisional that is well off in play, give the original ball a quick glance only...if your ball isn't in plain site, declare it lost and abandon search. If the ball isn't in plain site, chances are you don't want to find it. Doing that, you can play the provisional.

If you see a ball during that "quick glance," you better try to identify it.

27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

There is no such thing as "declaring your ball lost." A ball becomes lost because of an action taken, or 5 minutes running out. Declaring your ball lost is a pretty common misconception.

Kevin

This area is a philosophically challenging one for me. The rules of golf are pretty much written from the persepctive of two or more people competing with each other. While I occasionally play in a tournament, or occasionally play against a friend or two for a few dollars, most of my golf is played by me against myself/the course, and what I care about most is my final score. So I of course must play by stroke play rules. But the issue of when to stop looking for a lost ball when you have hit a good provisional is an odd one when you have no human opponent. If a human opponent doesn't choose to go looking for your ball after you've hit a successful provisional, that's on him and you can comfortably choose to play your provisional. If he does find it, it's clear what you do then too. But if you're playing seriously against just yourself, it's an oddity. Look a little? Look hard, but just in places you'd benefit from finding it? Look ruthlessly, as if you had been playing against an opponent and had holed your provisional? Who "protects the field" when there is no field to protect? I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this.

Sometimes it's really, really hard to figure out the right thing to do. And given the fact that I care far more about such issues than anyone I play with, trying to talk about it (with anyone other than the several dedicated souls I've found on this board) to work it out only brings me somewhat-deserved and perhaps-understandable ridicule. (Maybe there should be a seperate branch of sports psychology dealing with the Rules of Golf. Or maybe that ought to be general psychology rather than sports pshchology.) Okay, I'm going to try to relax now.

Sawgrass,

In my opinion, and my interpretation of the rules, the player has no obligation to look at all. He may just go play his provisional. However...

If the player sees a ball that may be his, or anybody else sees a ball that may be his, it is the players obligation to identify it. In the situation I was replying to, the player caught a glimpse of a ball, but chose to ignore it.

Kevin

[InTheHole]

Just to clarify my thinking as a newbie to the rules (in detail anyway)...

Here is the USGA's definition of a provisional ball...

Provisional Ball
A "provisional ball" is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

The OP described his ball as ... "I teed off on a par 4 with trees down the right side of the fairway. I blocked the shot to the right and put it into the grove of trees."

Was the grove of trees a water hazard or out of bounds? If not, you should not be able to play a provisional. Correct? It seems to me you were in the rough and behind some trees- it may be lost or unplayable, but not in a hazard or out of bounds.

I've played behind people on several occasions that hit provisional balls for almost every bad shot. Let me re-phrase that, for every shot they "don't like." My point is I think there is a large misconception among general golfers as to what a provisional ball is (present company excluded). So I'm just trying to get it clear in my head...

[kevcarter]

InTheHole, on Oct 23 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

Just to clarify my thinking as a newbie to the rules (in detail anyway)...

Here is the USGA's definition of a provisional ball...

Provisional Ball
A "provisional ball" is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

The OP described his ball as ... "I teed off on a par 4 with trees down the right side of the fairway. I blocked the shot to the right and put it into the grove of trees."

Was the grove of trees a water hazard or out of bounds? If not, you should not be able to play a provisional. Correct? It seems to me you were in the rough and behind some trees- it may be lost or unplayable, but not in a hazard or out of bounds.

InTheHole, please read that sentence again. You are misunderstanding it.

Kevin

[Sawgrass]

kevcarter , on Oct 23 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

Sawgrass,

In my opinion, and my interpretation of the rules, the player has no obligation to look at all. He may just go play his provisional. However...

If the player sees a ball that may be his, or anybody else sees a ball that may be his, it is the players obligation to identify it. In the situation I was replying to, the player caught a glimpse of a ball, but chose to ignore it.

Kevin

Thank you Kevin. It's nice to have your unbiased opinion on this, and I suppose you're right. And if there is no obligation to look, it follows that one might look where it would be fortuitous to find the ball and not elsewhere, remaining alert to the possiblily you might accidentally find a ball/your ball where you don't wish to. Conversley, if you hit a terrible provisional, I guess you can run around like a nut for five minutes desperately trying to find your original ball without feeling guilty that you employ different techniques in different situations.

Good. Guilt-free golf is a wonderful thing!

[j-rob]

Sawgrass, on Oct 23 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

kevcarter , on Oct 22 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

muxi87, on Oct 22 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Quick tip: If you hit your ball into an area that is full of unplayable lies and have a provisional that is well off in play, give the original ball a quick glance only...if your ball isn't in plain site, declare it lost and abandon search. If the ball isn't in plain site, chances are you don't want to find it. Doing that, you can play the provisional.

If you see a ball during that "quick glance," you better try to identify it.

27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

There is no such thing as "declaring your ball lost." A ball becomes lost because of an action taken, or 5 minutes running out. Declaring your ball lost is a pretty common misconception.

Kevin

This area is a philosophically challenging one for me. The rules of golf are pretty much written from the persepctive of two or more people competing with each other. While I occasionally play in a tournament, or occasionally play against a friend or two for a few dollars, most of my golf is played by me against myself/the course, and what I care about most is my final score. So I of course must play by stroke play rules. But the issue of when to stop looking for a lost ball when you have hit a good provisional is an odd one when you have no human opponent. If a human opponent doesn't choose to go looking for your ball after you've hit a successful provisional, that's on him and you can comfortably choose to play your provisional. If he does find it, it's clear what you do then too. But if you're playing seriously against just yourself, it's an oddity. Look a little? Look hard, but just in places you'd benefit from finding it? Look ruthlessly, as if you had been playing against an opponent and had holed your provisional? Who "protects the field" when there is no field to protect? I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this.

Sometimes it's really, really hard to figure out the right thing to do. And given the fact that I care far more about such issues than anyone I play with, trying to talk about it (with anyone other than the several dedicated souls I've found on this board) to work it out only brings me somewhat-deserved and perhaps-understandable ridicule. (Maybe there should be a seperate branch of sports psychology dealing with the Rules of Golf. Or maybe that ought to be general psychology rather than sports pshchology.) Okay, I'm going to try to relax now.

In my opinion, all that you said was right on the money. This is the same way I view the situation.

[Mr. Fair]

Kevcarter,

In regards to the two club length drop for unplayable lie...I saw a segment on the Champions Tour weekly show, and the rules official said something about this being some sort of misconception in certain situations. All I remember is that the ball was stuck in a bush and the official said something about taking the ball back as far as you want while keeping the ball's original position between you and the flag. This ring a bell? Thanks in advance.

Shep

[dlygrisse]

I seem to remember a few years ago PM hit a ball in the trash at Torrey Pines, he hit a provisional. When they walked over there Phil seemed annoyed that someone may actually find his first ball, he made some commnet to Bones about not looking too hard for it, because he knew playing the provisinal would be better for him. Someone found it and he had to take a drop etc. Can't remember the outcome though.

[OpusX20]

Mr. Fair, on Oct 23 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Kevcarter,

In regards to the two club length drop for unplayable lie...I saw a segment on the Champions Tour weekly show, and the rules official said something about this being some sort of misconception in certain situations. All I remember is that the ball was stuck in a bush and the official said something about taking the ball back as far as you want while keeping the ball's original position between you and the flag. This ring a bell? Thanks in advance.

Shep

Once the player decides that his ball is unplayable, he has 3 options under Rule 28:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

[kevcarter]

dlygrisse, on Oct 23 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

I seem to remember a few years ago PM hit a ball in the trash at Torrey Pines, he hit a provisional. When they walked over there Phil seemed annoyed that someone may actually find his first ball, he made some commnet to Bones about not looking too hard for it, because he knew playing the provisinal would be better for him. Someone found it and he had to take a drop etc. Can't remember the outcome though.

EXACTLY,

Phil actually told bones NOT to look, perfectly OK. A spectator found his ball and in the conversation with the rules official he said something to the effect of "But I told him not to look!"

Back to the tee he went...

Kevin

[kevcarter]

Mr. Fair, on Oct 23 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Kevcarter,

In regards to the two club length drop for unplayable lie...I saw a segment on the Champions Tour weekly show, and the rules official said something about this being some sort of misconception in certain situations. All I remember is that the ball was stuck in a bush and the official said something about taking the ball back as far as you want while keeping the ball's original position between you and the flag. This ring a bell? Thanks in advance.

Shep

Sorry Sir, I'm not sure I understand your question. I see Opus answered, is that what you were looking for?

Kevin

[BdaGolfer]

OpusX20, on Oct 23 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

Mr. Fair, on Oct 23 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Kevcarter,

In regards to the two club length drop for unplayable lie...I saw a segment on the Champions Tour weekly show, and the rules official said something about this being some sort of misconception in certain situations. All I remember is that the ball was stuck in a bush and the official said something about taking the ball back as far as you want while keeping the ball's original position between you and the flag. This ring a bell? Thanks in advance.

Shep

Once the player decides that his ball is unplayable, he has 3 options under Rule 28:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

With regard to option c above, apart from "no nearer the hole", are there any other guidelines or limitations as to how the 2 club lengths is chosen i.e. which direction away from the original lie?

Thanks,

Alan

[kevcarter]

BdaGolfer, on Oct 23 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

OpusX20, on Oct 23 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

Mr. Fair, on Oct 23 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Kevcarter,

In regards to the two club length drop for unplayable lie...I saw a segment on the Champions Tour weekly show, and the rules official said something about this being some sort of misconception in certain situations. All I remember is that the ball was stuck in a bush and the official said something about taking the ball back as far as you want while keeping the ball's original position between you and the flag. This ring a bell? Thanks in advance.

Shep

Once the player decides that his ball is unplayable, he has 3 options under Rule 28:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

With regard to option c above, apart from "no nearer the hole", are there any other guidelines or limitations as to how the 2 club lengths is chosen i.e. which direction away from the original lie?

Thanks,

Alan

Hmmm, I can't think of any Alan. Am I missing something Opus?

Kevin

[OpusX20]

kevcarter , on Oct 23 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

BdaGolfer, on Oct 23 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

OpusX20, on Oct 23 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

Mr. Fair, on Oct 23 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Kevcarter,

In regards to the two club length drop for unplayable lie...I saw a segment on the Champions Tour weekly show, and the rules official said something about this being some sort of misconception in certain situations. All I remember is that the ball was stuck in a bush and the official said something about taking the ball back as far as you want while keeping the ball's original position between you and the flag. This ring a bell? Thanks in advance.

Shep

Once the player decides that his ball is unplayable, he has 3 options under Rule 28:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

With regard to option c above, apart from "no nearer the hole", are there any other guidelines or limitations as to how the 2 club lengths is chosen i.e. which direction away from the original lie?

Thanks,

Alan

Hmmm, I can't think of any Alan. Am I missing something Opus?

Kevin

I can't think of any limitations other than the ball couldn't come to rest OB or in a hazard. You would need to follow the guidelines in Rule 20 for dropping a ball, but other than that I can't think of any "directional" limitations.

[InTheHole]

kevcarter , on Oct 23 2009, 11:54 AM, said:

InTheHole, please read that sentence again. You are misunderstanding it.

Kevin

Yup- brain freeze. Thanks for pointing it out.

[kevcarter]

InTheHole, on Oct 23 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

kevcarter , on Oct 23 2009, 11:54 AM, said:

InTheHole, please read that sentence again. You are misunderstanding it.

Kevin

Yup- brain freeze. Thanks for pointing it out.

HaHa, wait till you get to be 50, it will happen all the time, and you will forget what it was you misunderstood.

Kevin

[green-keeper]

@ BdaGolfer

Alan,
You should keep in mind, that You may use any club in Your bag to measure the two club lenghts - no matter which club You are going to use after the drop:

Greenkeeper.

[BdaGolfer]

green-keeper, on Oct 24 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

@ BdaGolfer

Alan,
You should keep in mind, that You may use any club in Your bag to measure the two club lenghts - no matter which club You are going to use after the drop:

Greenkeeper.

Thanks for the reply (and to Kev & Opus as well). Hopefully I never need to use the information to save myself, but better armed than helpless

Alan