[Joe Doaks]

New member here, flame me out if this has been done before .....

Guy at work decided week before last to have a "retro round", using only blades, wood woods, old putters, and old (at least pre-multi-layer-premium) balls. Played 6,480 yard tees at relatively flat course, slope 124, quite a few trees, lots of sand, small greens (stimp probably 8.5-9.0) with modern, cut-away "chipping areas", moderate (3-4") rough, cool (58-59 degrees), intermittent light rain, light-modest (5-10 mph) winds.

My bag included a PowerBilt Citation laminated driver (circa late 1970s), Titleist persimmon Tour Model 821 4-wood, 1977 PowerBilt model 2276L Scotch Blade ("L" for longer than standard) flatback forged irons 2-PW (the ones that are just a sweetspot on a stick), a Cleveland 900 SW (56*) and a Callaway X-Forged lob wedge (60* ...... yes, the wedges were newer than the "rules" allowed, but were accepted based on the fact that they are forged blades and were old / used enough that the grooves are now pretty well along - besides, I didn't have any real old sand wedges) and a Titleist John Reuter, Jr., blade putter (not Bullseye) that was sort-kinda reminiscent of an 8802. Balls were tricky .... managed to come up w/ some sleeves of Titleist Professional 100s (new, never hit, probably 12 years old) and some DT wounds. No luck finding serviceable balatas. Others in the group used what they could scrounge up in this same vein.

Conclusions - great deal of fun, the real differences to me were to see again (it's been a long time and we tend to remember only what's new and fresh) the positive effects of bulge and roll (hit 10 of 14 fairways), the distance penalty from the woods (maybe 10-15 yards) and, more than anything, the impact of the balls on distance. Test probably skewed a bit since we couldn't (by definition) gin up "new" old balls (yes, they were unhit, but they <especially the Professionals>, sure felt like there had been some loss of performance from simply sitting in the sleeves for a dozen years or more). Example - smoked a 4 iron on number six from 167 yards to five feet - estimated a 20-plus yard / two club distance penalty vs. newer multilayer (Pro V1, etc.) generation of balls on the same shot. The DT wounds were clearly better from a distance standpoint than were the old Professionals, but still well short of the new generation. Also amazed at how little the Professionals seemed to spin off of the irons / wedges, including pitches / chips. Have watched Mr. Nicklaus stare into the TV cameras for 15 years and say (in effect) over and over again that it's not the clubs, not the graphite shafts, not the fitness trailer, not the more technically sound swings, but the ball that's changed the game the most and (not that he needs my validation), after this, I'd say he's right. Shot 79 (off of a 5.0 index), three shots down the tubes attributable to short game deficiencies, thinking the penalty from the old clubs / balls was, in the end, relatively minor (+/- 2 shots for the round ?? who knows). Certainly made a 6,500 yard course seem plenty long. Not something we'd do every day, but we all concluded we'd try it again next year, if for no other reason than to remind ourselves that, yes, folks managed to get it around pretty good before titanium, cavity backs, square grooves, and hi-performance balls. Actually liked the Scotch Blades again - carried them for 22 years, and if you hit them in the center with face square to the target line, they go just fine.

Anybody else tried this sort of thing, or are we the only lunatics out there ?

[omeletpants]

Our club did it once and it was no fun. Maybe interesting for a couple of shots. People have a hard enough time with new technology.

[Asleep]

to


Sounds like a fun challenge to me as I've only hit "modern" equipment.

[ga_pike]

We play something similar but not to that extreem. We use blades and older, smaller woods (drivers under 400cc)... we also use "blade style" putters, no heel toe, no mallets. Our club limit is 10. Here is my setup for that:

Driver: Wishon 915 (370 cc)
FW: Titleist pre-PT FW 20* 5 wood (from 80's)
Irons: Titleist Tour Model Blades (with leather grips!!) 5 - PW
Wedge: Old Cleveland 588 SW
Putter: SC Studio Design 1

[78blades]

Joe Doaks, on Oct 12 2009, 04:39 PM, said:

New member here, flame me out if this has been done before .....

Guy at work decided week before last to have a "retro round", using only blades, wood woods, old putters, and old (at least pre-multi-layer-premium) balls. Played 6,480 yard tees at relatively flat course, slope 124, quite a few trees, lots of sand, small greens (stimp probably 8.5-9.0) with modern, cut-away "chipping areas", moderate (3-4") rough, cool (58-59 degrees), intermittent light rain, light-modest (5-10 mph) winds.

My bag included a PowerBilt Citation laminated driver (circa late 1970s), Titleist persimmon Tour Model 821 4-wood, 1977 PowerBilt model 2276L Scotch Blade ("L" for longer than standard) flatback forged irons 2-PW (the ones that are just a sweetspot on a stick), a Cleveland 900 SW (56*) and a Callaway X-Forged lob wedge (60* ...... yes, the wedges were newer than the "rules" allowed, but were accepted based on the fact that they are forged blades and were old / used enough that the grooves are now pretty well along - besides, I didn't have any real old sand wedges) and a Titleist John Reuter, Jr., blade putter (not Bullseye) that was sort-kinda reminiscent of an 8802. Balls were tricky .... managed to come up w/ some sleeves of Titleist Professional 100s (new, never hit, probably 12 years old) and some DT wounds. No luck finding serviceable balatas. Others in the group used what they could scrounge up in this same vein.

Conclusions - great deal of fun, the real differences to me were to see again (it's been a long time and we tend to remember only what's new and fresh) the positive effects of bulge and roll (hit 10 of 14 fairways), the distance penalty from the woods (maybe 10-15 yards) and, more than anything, the impact of the balls on distance. Test probably skewed a bit since we couldn't (by definition) gin up "new" old balls (yes, they were unhit, but they <especially the Professionals>, sure felt like there had been some loss of performance from simply sitting in the sleeves for a dozen years or more). Example - smoked a 4 iron on number six from 167 yards to five feet - estimated a 20-plus yard / two club distance penalty vs. newer multilayer (Pro V1, etc.) generation of balls on the same shot. The DT wounds were clearly better from a distance standpoint than were the old Professionals, but still well short of the new generation. Also amazed at how little the Professionals seemed to spin off of the irons / wedges, including pitches / chips. Have watched Mr. Nicklaus stare into the TV cameras for 15 years and say (in effect) over and over again that it's not the clubs, not the graphite shafts, not the fitness trailer, not the more technically sound swings, but the ball that's changed the game the most and (not that he needs my validation), after this, I'd say he's right. Shot 79 (off of a 5.0 index), three shots down the tubes attributable to short game deficiencies, thinking the penalty from the old clubs / balls was, in the end, relatively minor (+/- 2 shots for the round ?? who knows). Certainly made a 6,500 yard course seem plenty long. Not something we'd do every day, but we all concluded we'd try it again next year, if for no other reason than to remind ourselves that, yes, folks managed to get it around pretty good before titanium, cavity backs, square grooves, and hi-performance balls. Actually liked the Scotch Blades again - carried them for 22 years, and if you hit them in the center with face square to the target line, they go just fine.

Anybody else tried this sort of thing, or are we the only lunatics out there ?

I hear ya and think it is great. I've reshafted a old set of 78 Wilson Staff Tour blades, 1-pw and play them about a third of the time. Once in awhile I'll go totally retro and throw in the persimmons woods, great fun. However we seem to be a dying breed, not too many ppl like to be challenged these days; they just want stuff to be given to them w/o working for it. Also the OEM's have most everyone convinced that anything others than GI irons are very hard to almost impossible to hit.

When I'm dialed in on my swing I haven't hit a nicer feeling and more workable iron than the Wilson Staffs, and yes that includes the modern stuff; even better feeling than my Mizuno's. To me thats what is so great about the old stuff cuz they just plain don't work if you don't have AT LEAST a decent golf swing. I also really like pulling the 1i out and listening to all the crap ppl think and the taking it 230 down the middle. Interesting to how ppl just shut up after that. I'll be honest here, I pretty much only play the 1i off of the tee cuz its on and off for me off of the deck and I can generate better and more consistent distance off of the deck with the 2i. Playing these old beauties has made me love my long irons now.

[ChristianMc]

Hello,
I have been trying to set up a 'persimmon golf society' in the UK where only baldes and persimmon are allowed (the modern ball is accepted). It has been hard but I have met some fellow enthusiasts and a fourball was had in November at an old course in Oxfordshire measuring 6200. It was great fun and there are plans for the future. I play all my golf with classic clubs and my home course is 6800 yards. I get many funny looks but off a 6 hcap i have managed to maintain it (to be fair in high winds and cold the effects are more noticeable). I am glad others are trying to keep the interest going - wish I could join you sometime in the US!
Kind regards,
Christian

[belmullet]

Joe, Christian and all,
Good to see someone else taking the plunge! There does seem to be limited interest in playing with vintage blades/persimmon, but, as you can tell by the many posts here, those who are willing to try it are an enthusiastic bunch. I have been playing exclusively with persimmons and blades from the 50s to early 90s for the last few months and really have enjoyed the challenge of playing these clubs. I also have felt like I have learned a lot about the history of the game by trying to discover when clubs were made, who played them, and the design differences between the different models. I still have a lot to learn but it is certainly a factor in the enjoyment I get from these vintage clubs.

Like you, I play off about a 4-5 handicap and I too would estimate the clubs have only added about two strokes to my average so far on about a 6500 yard course. I use an old 8802 (or Nicklaus Wizard 600 style) putter and don't use a lob wedge, just a vintage sand wedge. This has been a challenge as I used to carry a 64 degree lob wedge that I used from greenside bunkers and often from the grass- and our course has a lot of contouring around the greens that made this a useful club. Now I am having to return to bump and run golf and thus reacquiring a skill that I had lost for many years. I have also enjoyed chipping with these older pitching wedges- especially some of the Hogan "equalizers." They really are precision instruments around the greens.

None of my buddies have yet to agree to even one day with the vintage clubs, though one is enthusiastic about trying when the weather improves. This puzzles me some as they are all competent golfers. I would be interested in what others would say about why this isn't more appealing to other golfers. I have one friend who makes it very clear that he can't understand why anyone would make a course more difficult than it already is. He all but admits he would like wedges or short irons into all greens, for example. So I can see why he would not want to lose distance by going backwards technologically; though he admits that my persimmon drives when hit well are only about 10-15 yards shorter. The iron differences come from shorter lengths and weaker lofts, I think.

These clubs would make the game more frustrating for higher handicappers- at least on the course. But practicing with persimmons and blades ought to improve their ball striking. And there is at least one enthusiastic new golfer on these threads (sausage from the UK) who seems to be loving these old clubs even though he is just learning the game. There's a lesson there, I think. Resistance also comes from those who love their shiny new expensive Callaway clubs and are afraid of finding out that the game can be fun and satisfying without them. Finally, there are those who just measure everything in golf by length. I am not that long a hitter, but was the longest most of the time in my "group." I have had to get used to being outdriven regularly and using a 7 iron where I might have used a 9 iron before. Really, I think that has turned out to be the best part of this. The game is more challenging, takes more thinking, and is more about shotmaking than distance. What I have found is that is what I love about golf and new clubs and looking for the longest drives was a distraction. I may change my mind, of course.. that is the prerogative of a golfer even more than of a woman. But I plan on going retro for all of 2010, including my club championship (which I can never win anyway) and a trip to Scotland planned for July. I'll compare stats from the previous few years and report back. I'm also going to try and do some head to head comparisons of old and new clubs (for example a Ginty vs. a hybrid) and switch out vintage irons every couple of weeks to see what works best for me. So I still care very much about playing and scoring well.

Keep at it and let us all know how it goes in 2010.

[freddiec]

Craig,
Great post. I think I know the reason why most don't have an interest. I think it boils down to personal taste. Some people (most people) walk into a wine house and just go for the 8 dollar bottle of wine, because it all tastes the same for them. Others are Wine snobs and demand the best, they want to savor the flavah... I think you and I and a bunch others have tasted the best and know the difference and rather experience what we consider real golf. I think most golfers are really out there for the comradarie, competition and recreation and to shoot the lowest score they can, hit the longest drives then can, its mostly about ego and gratification, not that that is a bad thing. But us, we are students of the game who look for a more exclusive experience on the links.

I'm also going to try to play the majority of my golf in 2010 with Vintage gear (clubs made in the 80s, maybe slip in a 50s Mac driver every other round). I'm expecting to play less in 2010, so for me its all about quality , not quantity.

[belmullet]

As usual, Fred, you get to the heart of it in about 1/10th the amount of time it takes me to say it. I need to learn the art of short posts!
Craig

[freddiec]

LOL. Craig, don't change, I always enjoy reading yours posts. Someday when I'm in the VA are, we'll hook up, maybe go play Royal New Kent. Williamsburg golf would be great with the ol' stuff. :-)

[belmullet]

Fred,
That would be great. I have only played Royal New Kent once, but I loved it. I really don't know the Williamsburg courses, as my group doesn't do many "travel days" except a few days every spring in courses around Pinehurst. Have you ever played Tobacco Road? It's another Mike Strantz design- great fun and quirky. My "group" never plays there- even though a couple of us love it- because they see it as too "hard" for the average golfers in the group. Sigh.
Craig

[freddiec]

Craig,
I also played RNK in July a few years ago and loved it. Never played Tobacco, but I know all about it. Its on my list. A good friend of mine lives about 45 min from there and is always asking me to go down and play there with him. Another good friend is in the NC outbanks- Pinehurst area and he is involved with organizing a "Traditional" golf tournament (old school gear) for 2010 sometime. I'm not sure where they are with that, but he's gonna let me know. When I get an update I'll let you know, I'd like to fly down to NC for it.

The ultimate for me would be to do True Blue and Caladonia with Persimmons some year, thats one of my goals. Both top notch Strantz courses.

[bsb70x7]

You forgot to mention a real difference -- that sound of the ball coming off a persimmon head. I take out a persimmon driver at least once a year just for fun and to hear the old "thaaaawaack" sound. My old MacGregor Tourney 1-iron comes out once a year too just for fun. Thanks for the post.

[2OnePutt]

I've been playing classic clubs(minus driver) since I started which was in 2004. A bunch of my college buddies and I got into golf around the same time(credit: Tiger Woods). Pretty much everyone went out and got themselves modern equipment right away except for my cheapa$$. One of my buddies had a set of clubs he had been using that he said belonged to his dead uncle. Long story short, once his Callaways came in, he gave me the whole bag. Pretty much threw them at me. The setup was: Gary Player bag, H&B Powerbilt Citation Persimmon 1(driver I'm guessing), 3, and 5 woods, these rusted Lynx irons(5-9), and a Johnny Miller Wilson PW.

I can honestly say that day changed my life as a golfer. Even though the irons weren't blades, I think they were still harder to hit than most of the new stuff. When we were at the range I could tell my consistency was improving much faster than everyone else and I credit those irons and Ben Hogan's Five Lessons for the learning curve. I tried the woods a few times but it was not happening so I left them in my closet to collect dust. My cheapa$$ went and got a cheap driver from Golfsmith($30) and its the same one I use today. So, for a while I was playing Driver, 5-9 irons, and my wedge. RIDICULOUS! Shooting in the high 90's-100's, but so was everyone else with their new clubs so I never really thought it was a big deal. We all sucked, but it was fun.

This summer I came across Sevam1's videos on youtube and really got back into golf. I found my current set on ebay for $62.50 + free shipping hahaha. They are better than any set that any of my buddies own. Anyways, I finally gained enough confidence to start hitting the persimmons and they are SWEET! Last round I played I shot 13 over par(on a 9 hole course), my best score ever. On the third tee which was a 357 yard dog leg right Par 4 downhill, I busted out the 5 wood and hit it PURE to 150ish from the green. So I guess, to answer the OP's question: yes I'm a lunatic classic club golfer and its awesome. Albeit, I don't hit the persimmon driver so I guess I'm a cheater. I definitely gonna bust it out when I have a chance. I actually joined golfwrx cause I'm looking for some new irons, but my first significant post is in the classic club section. Whats going on!?!?

Oh yeah, anyone have any modern club suggestions? Something comparable to the '72 Apex but newer? I'm looking at getting some Wilson Fluid Feels just for fun, but those aren't exactly "new."

Reason for EDIT: forgot to say the course was 9 holes only.

[drewspin]

2OnePutt, on Jan 1 2010, 06:08 PM, said:

Oh yeah, anyone have any modern club suggestions? Something comparable to the '72 Apex but newer? I'm looking at getting some Wilson Fluid Feels just for fun, but those aren't exactly "new."

If you want something comparable to the '72 Apex's but a bit easier to elevate, check out the 1988 Hogan Redlines (also Apex). Excellent irons.

Newer does not necessarily mean better when it comes to blades.

[2OnePutt]

Drewspin,

Thanks. Would you say the '88 Redlines are about the same with yardages or would they be longer at all? I hit my 7 iron 127 yards carry. Just got back from the range actually. Would be like to be able to carry my 3 iron 170 yards, but am unable to right now.. am able roll it that far/further. Would that be possible? Maybe I should look into finding a 2 iron or 1 iron?

BTW. Just from spending some time at the Hogan Legacy website I'd have to say my new favorites would be the 80-85 Directors. CLEAN! I saw some Redlines on ebay but trying to wait for a "as close to mint" set as I can. Its hard especially since I got/think I got a real good deal for my current Apex irons. I guess being patience is key since I still don't have a full "ebay season" under my belt yet.. HA!

Oh yeah.. also I wasn't able to hit my Powerbilt Driver today.. didn't want to use hit it off those rubber tees.. MATS ONLY TODAY

[drewspin]

2OnePutt, on Jan 4 2010, 04:58 PM, said:

Drewspin,

Thanks. Would you say the '88 Redlines are about the same with yardages or would they be longer at all? I hit my 7 iron 127 yards carry. Just got back from the range actually. Would be like to be able to carry my 3 iron 170 yards, but am unable to right now.. am able roll it that far/further. Would that be possible? Maybe I should look into finding a 2 iron or 1 iron?

There are too many variables involved to make that assessment over the internet (e.g., swing, ball, shaft, etc.).

Generally, the Redlines have more weight down low behind the ball and will help you launch the ball higher than the '72 apex blades with a comparable shaft and ball.

That higher launch may help your carry distances with the long irons if you hit the current apex blades lower than optimal for your swing speed.

Regarding the 1 or 2 irons, I would suggest going for some higher lofted fairway woods instead.

[2OnePutt]

Awesome. Thank you.

[2OnePutt]

Forgot to mention, I carry the 5 wood the 170+, but was under the impression that 3 iron should carry the same distance with less roll?