[Professor D]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dZjT83qCxfs

[wntbtw]

Nice. It is interesting that Hogan`s feet are closed at address yet [to me] it looks like his knees and hips are pretty square. I`ve always loved his hip and knee rotation on the backswing--IMO all the 'old school' greats did that on their "full swing back swings"--Demerat, Nelson, Snead, etc.
I`d love to see a good 'face-on' analysis of Hogan--anyone have any? Thanks for sharing this.

[Dariusz J.]

This is a Hogan version of the diagonal stance. Feet slightly closed (the angle depending on a club length), hips slightly open, shoulders square in relation to the target. I think it is a complete misunderstanding the line he drew when arguing that Hogan's shoulders were 10* open at address. His shoulders were almost always perfectly square.

The rest of this analysis is well done, albeit a bit shallow.

Cheers

[Professor D]

"Square" shoulders would mean that a line across the shoulders would run parallel to the target line. Hogan's shoulder line consistently ran left of parallel to his target line, as it does for the majority of Tour players. I'm always surprised to see just how "open" many Tour pros' shoulders are at address when I videotape swings at Tour events. You've got to know where the target line is to measure that.

[Dariusz J.]

Professor D, on Sep 30 2009, 02:26 PM, said:

"Square" shoulders would mean that a line across the shoulders would run parallel to the target line. Hogan's shoulder line consistently ran left of parallel to his target line, as it does for the majority of Tour players. I'm always surprised to see just how "open" many Tour pros' shoulders are at address when I videotape swings at Tour events. You've got to know where the target line is to measure that.

I never have noticed that Hogan's shoulders were open at address; what I always saw they were aligned parallely to the target line, i.e. square for me. Like this:

[attachment=472568:DiagonalStance2.jpg]


Cheers

[Professor D]

Shoulders sure look sqaure there. He may have been playing a draw. In other videos, his shoulders appear open to parallel to his target line. What's a few degrees among friends, right?

[Professor D]

wntbtw, on Sep 30 2009, 06:19 AM, said:

Nice. It is interesting that Hogan`s feet are closed at address yet [to me] it looks like his knees and hips are pretty square. I`ve always loved his hip and knee rotation on the backswing--IMO all the 'old school' greats did that on their "full swing back swings"--Demerat, Nelson, Snead, etc.
I`d love to see a good 'face-on' analysis of Hogan--anyone have any? Thanks for sharing this.

Good eye. I should have pointed out the square hips/knees. I put together a face-on of Hogan chipping here

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DDiwFhpcIq8

[Dariusz J.]

Professor D, on Sep 30 2009, 07:06 PM, said:

Shoulders sure look sqaure there. He may have been playing a draw. In other videos, his shoulders appear open to parallel to his target line. What's a few degrees among friends, right?

I am last man who would like to split hairs, but this issue is actually pretty important to me in view of my biokinetic researches and the Diagonal Stance concept. Therefore, forgive me that I have to continue this dispute

1. Could you present me a pic/pics of Hogan with open shoulders at address ?

2. The pic I put is taken from the Shell match against Snead. Hogan played a fade in this shot.

3. Why do you think open shoulders at setup help ? I found that having the hips slightly open (with the feet slightly closed) helps, but have not found any reason why shoulders shouldn't be square (i.e. parallel to the target).

4. IMO, a lot of pros have slightly open shoulders at address because they setup with the lead arm in line with the shaft (so, a bit leaned forward); Hogan always wanted his club to be set in the middle of the stance.

Cheers

[wntbtw]

Not that I am an expert but I am reading some great stuff at the Titleist 'TPI' web site, including their 3D analysis of the swings of both amateurs and PGA TOUR pros. Concerning Hogan`s open shoulder position at address, the TPI research states that the shoulders/thorax is open at set-up of the average PGA TOUR player:

5 iron: 12* open at address, 80*closed at the top, 30* open at impact, and 151* open at the finish.

Driver: 11* open at address, 91* closed at the top, 29* open at impact, and 149* open at the finish.

This is great stuff [I know that 'GolfTec' teaches these numbers as well] and here`s the link that will direct you to this analysis:

http://www.mytpi.com...GoodExample.pdf

[Professor D]

Yup, all the biomechanical measurement systems have revealed that most Tour pro's shoulders are open at address. Golftec's "average" at address is 5* open, but I's say it's more like the TPI #.

Dariusz, Hogan's shoulders appear to be open in the video that started this thread. I thought I pointed it out pretty well, but 2D video can be deceiving. You are correct that Hogan's "centered" hands at address promote square shoulders but there still is the issue of the right hand below the left, which tends to pull the right shoulder out a little. And if there is any reason for setting the shoulders open at address, I would say it is to allow yourself to swing "inside-out" to your body alignment at address, which is a power move, while still delivering the club on a 0* neutral path at impact. Personally, once I allowed myself that it was "o.k." to do this, I was able to start the ball online with less curvature, rather than fight pushes and hooks. I wouldn't recommend it for "average" players who tend to slice.

[martinez]

The Thorax numbers are meaningless in regards to the shoulder position. The shoulder position would be a combination of the thorax and the position of the scapulae.

I'm with DJ all the way here, I don't see open shoulders in the address. An open torso? Absolutely.

[Dariusz J.]

I have nothing more to add to Martin's answer. Perhaps the misundestanding is because when talking about shoulders being open or not, I always refer to the very joints position.

Cheers

[martinez]

Yeah, the same goes for his impact position DJ, he was almost never as open in the shoulders as it appeared if you were looking at the torso as a whole.

[Dariusz J.]

martinez, on Oct 2 2009, 07:29 AM, said:

Yeah, the same goes for his impact position DJ, he was almost never as open in the shoulders as it appeared if you were looking at the torso as a whole.

True ! I need to revise my way of thinking as regards shoulder openess at impact (in fact, I did it already). They are open at impact but not as much as I wanted to see them to be previously. It is safer to be precise in this point and talking about thoracic part (torso) being open at impact in case e.g. of Hogan and other rotary EP golfers.

Cheers

[Professor D]

You guys lost me with all that thorax stuff. Does not the "traditional" way of measuring shoulder alignment, resting a club just below the collar bones, touching each shoulder, allow one to measure against parallel?

I'll concede that it is very possible that Hogan's shoulders were indeed parallel to his target line, but there is no doubt that many Tour pros have open shoulders at address, some startlingly so (Trevino, Couples, Ryan Moore)

[Dariusz J.]

Professor D, on Oct 2 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

You guys lost me with all that thorax stuff. Does not the "traditional" way of measuring shoulder alignment, resting a club just below the collar bones, touching each shoulder, allow one to measure against parallel?

I'll concede that it is very possible that Hogan's shoulders were indeed parallel to his target line, but there is no doubt that many Tour pros have open shoulders at address, some startlingly so (Trevino, Couples, Ryan Moore)

Prof.D.,
The clavicles position would indicate the thorax position, not the shoulders position. Clavicle bones are something as a link between rigid thorax bones structure and the shoulder joint that has a lot of motion ranges. Without this link, the joint would be almost completely dependent on thorax structure movement.
Now, the shoulder joint (incl. scapula) can perform flexion/extension, internal/external rotation and abduction/adduction (the visualizations are here: http://www.biokineti...i...p?f=3&t=24). The latter, i.e. abduction & adduction are the motions that can bring the shoulder joint to a closed or open position in relation to the torso position. Therefore, if we may presume that in Hogan's case, he had his torso opened 10* at address, his lead shoulder joint had to compensate for it and be abducted (outside & forward) so that the line between both his joints was perpendicular to the target line.
What is interesting, the mid-body hands position we talked about, makes the adjustment very natural, while the impact-fix position makes the same in not a very comfortable way. I would tend to agree with a generalization that the golfers using mid-body hands have great chances for their shoulder line being square, while the impact-fix makes the line open - as we discussed.
I can agree to you easily as regards even the majority of pros today, since I see rarely today Tour golfers with mid-body hands, alas.

BTW, Trevino's whole stance was very open towards the target, therefore no matter how he wanted to abduct the joint the line would have been always open, IMO.

Cheers

[kevhughes44]

Dariusz J., on Sep 30 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

This is a Hogan version of the diagonal stance. Feet slightly closed (the angle depending on a club length), hips slightly open, shoulders square in relation to the target. I think it is a complete misunderstanding the line he drew when arguing that Hogan's shoulders were 10* open at address. His shoulders were almost always perfectly square.

The rest of this analysis is well done, albeit a bit shallow.

Cheers

I agree. The shoulder line he drew seemed to go from the front of the right shoulder to the middle or back of the left shoulder, creating the erroneous impression that his shoulders were open to the line.

[Professor D]

Someone dig the 'ol Hawk up so we can strap a K-Vest to him and get to the bottom of this

But seriously, I've re-examined the video and a few others I have, and I now believe Hogan's shoulders were remarkably parallel to his target line. I was wrong

[Dariusz J.]

Professor D, on Oct 2 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

Someone dig the 'ol Hawk up so we can strap a K-Vest to him and get to the bottom of this

But seriously, I've re-examined the video and a few others I have, and I now believe Hogan's shoulders were remarkably parallel to his target line. I was wrong

C'mon, we are all learning here continuously. Say, thanks to you I've been forced to re-examine my knowledge on human joints and learned something. There are no gurus here and no hackers -as it is on many other golf forums. Only true argumentation plays a role. And the real man is being measured by the amount of situations in which he admits he was wrong. At least this is the old Polish saying. Looking forward to your future posts, mate,

Cheers