[zenchili]

I have noticed (and written about on my blog zenchili.com) the differences between a practice swing and an actual swing. I first noticed it after shooting some video of my swing and seeing that my practice swing is technically where I want it to be (on plane, great tempo, etc), and then seeing that the actual swing with a ball was nowhere near where I wanted it to be. It's amazing to me how well I can hit the ball with my swing not being where I want it to be.

I believe that part of it has to to do with the psychological effect of the ball. The feeling of trying to "kill" the ball. This feeling, at least for me, has been a bit hard to overcome. And this, I believe, is what leads to an over the top move.

I've been working on this have started to find keys to overcoming the over the top move. Part of it is ingraining new habits through swing thoughts, and the other is addressing the psychological effect of the ball.

For the latter I'm using a white foam practice ball that looks like a golf ball but is soft enough to use indoors. I think it helps to transition so that I get used to doing the right movements with a ball, but in my mind it is still a practice swing. I also video these swings as well. So far the results are encouraging. With this foam practice ball I can do the swing the right way. I think over time, my body will associate the white practice ball with the good swing, and it will naturally transition into hitting an actual golf ball.

[Professor D]

Hitting bigger, non-golf balls is a great way to engrain the desired swing moves! In my experience, players come "over the top" in reaction to a clubface that is open to the path of the clubhead at impact, which is of no consequence when not hitting a real golf ball. You must fix this if you want to say good-bye to OTT for good.

[dap]

The root cause of OTT is an OTT pivot motion,with the right shoulder roundhousing rather than dropping down and under the chin.

A lot of players band aid it by looping the club outside then inside or hit the inside quadrant of the ball or swing out to right field.

The best way is to simply get the pivot action correct.

[zenchili]

Professor D, on Sep 29 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Hitting bigger, non-golf balls is a great way to engrain the desired swing moves! In my experience, players come "over the top" in reaction to a clubface that is open to the path of the clubhead at impact, which is of no consequence when not hitting a real golf ball. You must fix this if you want to say good-bye to OTT for good.

dap, on Sep 29 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

The root cause of OTT is an OTT pivot motion,with the right shoulder roundhousing rather than dropping down and under the chin.

A lot of players band aid it by looping the club outside then inside or hit the inside quadrant of the ball or swing out to right field.

The best way is to simply get the pivot action correct.

Those are interesting thoughts, but I think they don't apply to what I'm talking about.

When you look at my practice swing, it is a technically correct swing. Proper pivot, tempo, plane, etc. It's only with the introduction of the golf ball that the swing becomes something else. I have a great swing when I'm not hitting a golf ball (like when I'm hitting an impact bag etc). The objective for me is to be able to do what I do with the practice swing when I'm hitting a golf ball. If I had an over the top move in my practice swing, then yes, I can see how the above would apply as my mechanics would not be correct there.

What I'm saying is that there is a psychological/mental side to hitting the golf ball that becomes a root cause for the over top move. Take away that response, and you're left with a proper swing through the ball. This of course assumes that the player can physically do the correct moves at all.

It's like a stimulus/response event. The stimulus of the golf ball causes a reponse. That response is to try to "hit" it harder, etc. So with the foam ball I'm retraining that stimulus/response, so that when there is a golf ball in front me, the reponse is not to kill, but to do what I've become used to doing, which is a proper swing.

[DaveLeeNC]

I did a ton of work a while back trying to "take my practice swing to a real golf ball". I too had noticed that a couple of swing flaws just were not there when doing a practice swing.

I tried all kinds of 'shenanigans', some of them pretty creative (IMHO). Two that failed miserably (and that surprised me) were:

1) Hitting a tennis ball instead of a golf ball. There is no expectation of much of anything, you would think. And the ball is HUGE compared to a golf ball. Plus you have no idea how the ball will go, what it will feel like, etc. Despite these facts, the result was not a practice swing, but a real swing.

2) My 'walk-around' swing drill. I would get on a large mat with a 5w and kind of 'walk around' taking practice swings at various little-bitty spots/whatever on that mat. And I would let one of those spots just 'happen to be' the golf ball. This too was a complete failure.

#2 was most interesting. I truly expected it to be at least partly successful. But when you looked at it on video it was 'a real swing', not a practice swing. And what was EXTREMELY interesting was that you 'could see it in my eyes' on video. There was clearly some kind of calibration 'slipping in there' on that real golf ball swing.

I finally came to the conclusion that (for me - I can't speak for others here ) my practice swing has no more relationship to my real swing than does Tiger Woods practice swing have a relationship to MY real swing.

This is, without a doubt, the biggest disappointment that I have ever encountered in golf. I really believed that the fact that my practice swing was considerably better than my real swing would have some relevance. It does not, it would appear.

dave

[zenchili]

Hi Dave,

While it is true that it feels like the practice swing has no relation to the real swing I don't believe that is true. What I believe is that you are physically capable of producing a solid swing which you do repeatably with your practice swing.

But like you said, when you saw the ball, that stimulus/response chain would kick in and you'd get you "real" swing.

That is why I believe that it is in breaking that stimulus/response chain that something magical can happen. I know because in my practice session I was able to do it a few times. The practice swing, did occur a few times when hitting a real golf ball and the results were phenomenal. However it is not consistent yet.

I think the stimulus/response if it can't be fully broken, it can be retrained. That is why I picked that foam golf ball. It looks like a golf ball. It is the size and shape and color of a golf ball. And interesting what I found was that initially hitting that foam golf ball it looked like my real swing, however it began to change. My practice swing began to emerge when hitting the foam ball. It's like the old programming is slowly being erased. And I believe that it will fully change as I continue to work with it. I've already seen evidence of that.

So that in the future when I see the golf ball sitting in front of me, my body will be so used to hitting the foam ball that looks like a golf but that it will just pull up that swing and fire away. My practice swing will becomes my real swing.

DaveLeeNC, on Sep 29 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

I did a ton of work a while back trying to "take my practice swing to a real golf ball". I too had noticed that a couple of swing flaws just were not there when doing a practice swing.

I tried all kinds of 'shenanigans', some of them pretty creative (IMHO). Two that failed miserably (and that surprised me) were:

1) Hitting a tennis ball instead of a golf ball. There is no expectation of much of anything, you would think. And the ball is HUGE compared to a golf ball. Plus you have no idea how the ball will go, what it will feel like, etc. Despite these facts, the result was not a practice swing, but a real swing.

2) My 'walk-around' swing drill. I would get on a large mat with a 5w and kind of 'walk around' taking practice swings at various little-bitty spots/whatever on that mat. And I would let one of those spots just 'happen to be' the golf ball. This too was a complete failure.

#2 was most interesting. I truly expected it to be at least partly successful. But when you looked at it on video it was 'a real swing', not a practice swing. And what was EXTREMELY interesting was that you 'could see it in my eyes' on video. There was clearly some kind of calibration 'slipping in there' on that real golf ball swing.

I finally came to the conclusion that (for me - I can't speak for others here ) my practice swing has no more relationship to my real swing than does Tiger Woods practice swing have a relationship to MY real swing.

This is, without a doubt, the biggest disappointment that I have ever encountered in golf. I really believed that the fact that my practice swing was considerably better than my real swing would have some relevance. It does not, it would appear.

dave

[Pepperturbo]

zenchili, on Sep 29 2009, 11:48 AM, said:

Professor D, on Sep 29 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Hitting bigger, non-golf balls is a great way to engrain the desired swing moves! In my experience, players come "over the top" in reaction to a clubface that is open to the path of the clubhead at impact, which is of no consequence when not hitting a real golf ball. You must fix this if you want to say good-bye to OTT for good.

dap, on Sep 29 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

The root cause of OTT is an OTT pivot motion,with the right shoulder roundhousing rather than dropping down and under the chin.

A lot of players band aid it by looping the club outside then inside or hit the inside quadrant of the ball or swing out to right field.

The best way is to simply get the pivot action correct.

Those are interesting thoughts, but I think they don't apply to what I'm talking about.

When you look at my practice swing, it is a technically correct swing. Proper pivot, tempo, plane, etc. It's only with the introduction of the golf ball that the swing becomes something else. I have a great swing when I'm not hitting a golf ball (like when I'm hitting an impact bag etc). The objective for me is to be able to do what I do with the practice swing when I'm hitting a golf ball. If I had an over the top move in my practice swing, then yes, I can see how the above would apply as my mechanics would not be correct there.

What I'm saying is that there is a psychological/mental side to hitting the golf ball that becomes a root cause for the over top move. Take away that response, and you're left with a proper swing through the ball. This of course assumes that the player can physically do the correct moves at all.

It's like a stimulus/response event. The stimulus of the golf ball causes a reponse. That response is to try to "hit" it harder, etc. So with the foam ball I'm retraining that stimulus/response, so that when there is a golf ball in front me, the reponse is not to kill, but to do what I've become used to doing, which is a proper swing.

I can't help but be entertained when watching many golfers prepare to hit the ball. Sounds like many are like you - thinking they have perfectly balanced and beautiful swings, while hard and fast and it's the balls fault for OTT.

Note where the air whoosh is from the club head - mostly it's either forward in the 7-8 O'Clock area or 5 O'Clock; translated that means if a ball was present the shot would STILL be ugly. In other words even though many want to believe their practice swing is perfect, and it might look perfect, it's not. They are not paying close enough attention to their swing; it's just there's no ball trajectory to view.

Since I have many years of psychological training and experience I'll agree setting the ball down in front of a golfer can change his thinking; lets say like pavlovs dogs... It brings out a neanderthal hit it as hard as possible behavior, because if I don't it won't go far.

Note the practice swings of tour players or better amateurs... Seldom you'll see them swing as hard during practice swings, and many don't even take full swings... Practice swings are to find the tempo we know is so important. My practice swings are partial, like Els and Tiger, to validate tempo or shot intent.

You might want to take a closer look, but this time use a more critical eye

[zenchili]

Pepperturbo, on Sep 29 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

You might want to take a closer look, but use a more critical eye

That is why I use video. I have recorded thousands of swings and looked at them with a critical eye, in slow motion and frame by frame. As I have said, I have reproduced my practice swing when hitting a ball and the results are phenomenal. I'm also a decent player so even when I don't reproduce my practice swing I often still hit very good to excellent shots.

Many players do have an OTT move on their practice swing as well, but that is not what I was talking about.

I do think that there is a psychological factor when actually hitting the ball that changes things for many players including myself, but my belief is that can be changed. It is a stimulus/response chain and the chain can be retrained to have a different response.

My practice swings are not faster than my "real" swings. They are in fact at a great tempo, and they are in control. What stunned me, the first time I saw the difference in my practice and real swings, is that the real swing felt a lot like the practice swing. It didn't feel different. That is why I was shocked at how different they were.

Tour pros do not have the issue I am talking about, so comparing their practice swings to their actual swings doesn't really accomplish anything in this discussion. Usually, yes, they are establishing tempo, or doing a programming swing (which is different from a practice swing).

[CosmosMpower]

What about closing your eyes and taking practice swings with a friend randomly putting a ball where you would address the ball every few swings. I wonder what the results would be like.

[DaveLeeNC]

zenchili, on Sep 29 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

Hi Dave,

While it is true that it feels like the practice swing has no relation to the real swing I don't believe that is true. What I believe is that you are physically capable of producing a solid swing which you do repeatably with your practice swing.

But like you said, when you saw the ball, that stimulus/response chain would kick in and you'd get you "real" swing.

That is why I believe that it is in breaking that stimulus/response chain that something magical can happen. I know because in my practice session I was able to do it a few times. The practice swing, did occur a few times when hitting a real golf ball and the results were phenomenal. However it is not consistent yet.

I think the stimulus/response if it can't be fully broken, it can be retrained. That is why I picked that foam golf ball. It looks like a golf ball. It is the size and shape and color of a golf ball. And interesting what I found was that initially hitting that foam golf ball it looked like my real swing, however it began to change. My practice swing began to emerge when hitting the foam ball. It's like the old programming is slowly being erased. And I believe that it will fully change as I continue to work with it. I've already seen evidence of that.

So that in the future when I see the golf ball sitting in front of me, my body will be so used to hitting the foam ball that looks like a golf but that it will just pull up that swing and fire away. My practice swing will becomes my real swing.

DaveLeeNC, on Sep 29 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

I did a ton of work a while back trying to "take my practice swing to a real golf ball". I too had noticed that a couple of swing flaws just were not there when doing a practice swing.

I tried all kinds of 'shenanigans', some of them pretty creative (IMHO). Two that failed miserably (and that surprised me) were:

1) Hitting a tennis ball instead of a golf ball. There is no expectation of much of anything, you would think. And the ball is HUGE compared to a golf ball. Plus you have no idea how the ball will go, what it will feel like, etc. Despite these facts, the result was not a practice swing, but a real swing.

2) My 'walk-around' swing drill. I would get on a large mat with a 5w and kind of 'walk around' taking practice swings at various little-bitty spots/whatever on that mat. And I would let one of those spots just 'happen to be' the golf ball. This too was a complete failure.

#2 was most interesting. I truly expected it to be at least partly successful. But when you looked at it on video it was 'a real swing', not a practice swing. And what was EXTREMELY interesting was that you 'could see it in my eyes' on video. There was clearly some kind of calibration 'slipping in there' on that real golf ball swing.

I finally came to the conclusion that (for me - I can't speak for others here ) my practice swing has no more relationship to my real swing than does Tiger Woods practice swing have a relationship to MY real swing.

This is, without a doubt, the biggest disappointment that I have ever encountered in golf. I really believed that the fact that my practice swing was considerably better than my real swing would have some relevance. It does not, it would appear.

dave

I can only speak for myself, but the following is very true (for me)

1) My swing when hitting a ball with my eyes closed is my real swing, not my practice swing. BTW, hitting the ball with your eyes closed (for me) was not very hard to do

2) Whiffle balls are 'real balls', as far as my swing is concerned. Apparently tennis balls fall into this category as well, although I have orders of magnitude less experience hitting tennis balls vs. whiffle balls.

I would be really curious about cause/effect about for you when you managed to 'hit the ball with your practice swing'. I gave up after working on this for 3 months - my best estimate is 40-50 concentrated hours on trying to hit the ball with my practice swing.

dave

[lkangsterl]

op i feel your pain. i have tried things like taking practice swings wiht my eyes closed, and then having a ball put there. i would still get the "real" swing. let me know if you get a sure fix. i dream of the day i can hit a ball with my practice swing.

[carrera]

CosmosMpower, on Sep 29 2009, 01:07 PM, said:

What about closing your eyes and taking practice swings with a friend randomly putting a ball where you would address the ball every few swings. I wonder what the results would be like.

There is a training aid that does this...Haney used it with Barkley. Unfortunately, that goes in the category of " 'nuff said".

[zenchili]

DaveLeeNC, on Sep 29 2009, 05:44 PM, said:

zenchili, on Sep 29 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

Hi Dave,

While it is true that it feels like the practice swing has no relation to the real swing I don't believe that is true. What I believe is that you are physically capable of producing a solid swing which you do repeatably with your practice swing.

But like you said, when you saw the ball, that stimulus/response chain would kick in and you'd get you "real" swing.

That is why I believe that it is in breaking that stimulus/response chain that something magical can happen. I know because in my practice session I was able to do it a few times. The practice swing, did occur a few times when hitting a real golf ball and the results were phenomenal. However it is not consistent yet.

I think the stimulus/response if it can't be fully broken, it can be retrained. That is why I picked that foam golf ball. It looks like a golf ball. It is the size and shape and color of a golf ball. And interesting what I found was that initially hitting that foam golf ball it looked like my real swing, however it began to change. My practice swing began to emerge when hitting the foam ball. It's like the old programming is slowly being erased. And I believe that it will fully change as I continue to work with it. I've already seen evidence of that.

So that in the future when I see the golf ball sitting in front of me, my body will be so used to hitting the foam ball that looks like a golf but that it will just pull up that swing and fire away. My practice swing will becomes my real swing.

DaveLeeNC, on Sep 29 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

I did a ton of work a while back trying to "take my practice swing to a real golf ball". I too had noticed that a couple of swing flaws just were not there when doing a practice swing.

I tried all kinds of 'shenanigans', some of them pretty creative (IMHO). Two that failed miserably (and that surprised me) were:

1) Hitting a tennis ball instead of a golf ball. There is no expectation of much of anything, you would think. And the ball is HUGE compared to a golf ball. Plus you have no idea how the ball will go, what it will feel like, etc. Despite these facts, the result was not a practice swing, but a real swing.

2) My 'walk-around' swing drill. I would get on a large mat with a 5w and kind of 'walk around' taking practice swings at various little-bitty spots/whatever on that mat. And I would let one of those spots just 'happen to be' the golf ball. This too was a complete failure.

#2 was most interesting. I truly expected it to be at least partly successful. But when you looked at it on video it was 'a real swing', not a practice swing. And what was EXTREMELY interesting was that you 'could see it in my eyes' on video. There was clearly some kind of calibration 'slipping in there' on that real golf ball swing.

I finally came to the conclusion that (for me - I can't speak for others here ) my practice swing has no more relationship to my real swing than does Tiger Woods practice swing have a relationship to MY real swing.

This is, without a doubt, the biggest disappointment that I have ever encountered in golf. I really believed that the fact that my practice swing was considerably better than my real swing would have some relevance. It does not, it would appear.

dave

I can only speak for myself, but the following is very true (for me)

1) My swing when hitting a ball with my eyes closed is my real swing, not my practice swing. BTW, hitting the ball with your eyes closed (for me) was not very hard to do

2) Whiffle balls are 'real balls', as far as my swing is concerned. Apparently tennis balls fall into this category as well, although I have orders of magnitude less experience hitting tennis balls vs. whiffle balls.

I would be really curious about cause/effect about for you when you managed to 'hit the ball with your practice swing'. I gave up after working on this for 3 months - my best estimate is 40-50 concentrated hours on trying to hit the ball with my practice swing.

dave

As I said in my first post I believe there are two things that need to be considered/incorporated when working on this.

1) Swing thoughts that assist in transitioning the practice swing to the real swing

2) Breaking or retraining the stimulus/response chain

I have been working on this for a few weeks now and I have seen steady progress. I can look back at swing videos from a month ago and compare them to my most recent and see a definite improvement. This validation reinforces my belief in this strategy.

I don't have a specific sequence of swing thoughts that I can give someone and say try these because they developed organically for me based on what I was seeing and feeling. In order to start developing the swing thoughts I tried to really feel specific differences in my 2 swings. So in a way the first step became awareness. I tried to non-jugementally recognize differences in how my body felt through the swings. For example, one of the things I noticed recently was that in my practice swing, my upper body felt "quiet". Not a lot of extra movement. My real swing, felt tense and rushed, and tighter. So the swing thought became quiet upper body. When I started to feel that upper body quieting during the swing, and actually hitting balls, I taped and I could see that there was a difference. Although the OTT was not gone, it was reduced. As I go through this process, I'm sure I will come up with more differences and swing thoughts. I also do not want to work on more than one at a time.

So that's the first part, the swing thoughts.

The nice thing about the foam ball (not a whifle ball), is that it takes the pressure off, yet it looks like a golf ball, if that makes any sense. I'm slowly becoming accustomed to hitting this with the practice swing. I believe this is already affecting the stimulus/response chain.

[DaveLeeNC]

zenchili, on Sep 29 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

As I said in my first post I believe there are two things that need to be considered/incorporated when working on this.

1) Swing thoughts that assist in transitioning the practice swing to the real swing

2) Breaking or retraining the stimulus/response chain

I have been working on this for a few weeks now and I have seen steady progress. I can look back at swing videos from a month ago and compare them to my most recent and see a definite improvement. This validation reinforces my belief in this strategy.

I don't have a specific sequence of swing thoughts that I can give someone and say try these because they developed organically for me based on what I was seeing and feeling. In order to start developing the swing thoughts I tried to really feel specific differences in my 2 swings. So in a way the first step became awareness. I tried to non-jugementally recognize differences in how my body felt through the swings. For example, one of the things I noticed recently was that in my practice swing, my upper body felt "quiet". Not a lot of extra movement. My real swing, felt tense and rushed, and tighter. So the swing thought became quiet upper body. When I started to feel that upper body quieting during the swing, and actually hitting balls, I taped and I could see that there was a difference. Although the OTT was not gone, it was reduced. As I go through this process, I'm sure I will come up with more differences and swing thoughts. I also do not want to work on more than one at a time.

So that's the first part, the swing thoughts.

The nice thing about the foam ball (not a whifle ball), is that it takes the pressure off, yet it looks like a golf ball, if that makes any sense. I'm slowly becoming accustomed to hitting this with the practice swing. I believe this is already affecting the stimulus/response chain.

FWIW, if I were to undertake the stuff that I did a couple years ago (practice swing to real swing), in a general sense what zenchilli has outlined is one (of two) approaches that I would take. I don't see a difference (for me) between foam and plastic balls, but focusing on "tried to non-jugementally recognize differences in how my body felt through the swings" makes sense to me.

And keep in mind that this most valuable piece of insight comes from someone who has completely failed in this endeavor

dave

[golf ball]

I think it might be as simple as the players conception of where the target is, is too far left. And when people try to correct it they end up going further left. Longer club the more the target is to the right of them........ just a theory.

[pjh]

I actually have proof that my practice swing is much better than my real swing when I look at my divots. Divots from the practice swing are like perfect bacon strips that point a bit left, just like I see when pros hit it on a par 3. Then when I look side by side after hitting my real swing, the divot is either a bit fat, a bit thin or simply just doesn't look like what my practice divot looks like.

It is indeed weird and I would love to find a fix...back to the psychology of hitting at the ball vs a free flowing swing...I understand the psychology, now tell me how to fix it!!

[Ezgolfer]

Try Orangwhip training aid . Great for building tempo and also helps in ingraining the correct motion . I was filmed while swinging it and had perfect positions . I swing it and try to translate the feel to my driver . It 's helping me quite a bit . I think of swining through the teeed up ball .

[zenchili]

golf ball, on Sep 29 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

I think it might be as simple as the players conception of where the target is, is too far left. And when people try to correct it they end up going further left. Longer club the more the target is to the right of them........ just a theory.

I think that there is a comfort zone involved. What I mean is that if I try to aim more right, I'm not naturally comfortable with it and I'll find another way to compensate for it. I really feel that our relationship to the golf ball plays a big part. There's apprehension about not hitting a good shot. There's a lot of of bad shots in our memory banks. So hitting a golf ball is not a simple as hitting a golf ball.

That's why I'm sure it requires a transition to make your practice swing your real swing. That transition is supported by swing thoughts, and building up a library of memories of doing it the right way which builds trust in the swing. And that is where we want to get to. We want to get to the point where we truly trust our swing. I'm not there yet, but I'm building to that.

[zenchili]

Ezgolfer, on Sep 29 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Try Orangwhip training aid . Great for building tempo and also helps in ingraining the correct motion . I was filmed while swinging it and had perfect positions . I swing it and try to translate the feel to my driver . It 's helping me quite a bit . I think of swining through the teeed up ball .

I think the problem with Oranwhip is that it only addresses part of the problem since you can't hit balls with it. Since for the sake of this discussion we are assuming that your practice swing is pretty good technically, all you're doing with the orange whip is ingraining the practice swing more. It doesn't help transition it to the actual swing because the ball will still psych you out. You need to build a bank of memories of hitting the ball with a correct swing and that I think is where the real challenege is. Otherwise you are just ingraining a practice swing, or you're ingraining what doesn't work with the actual swing.

[porkman]

The practice swing is played without anxiety, in the ideal world of the imagination. It's not too hard to make a good swing in this wonderful world.

With the ball there on the ground, its back to the real world. I think the main anxieties of improving players is "can I hit it the distance?" and "am I going to make good contact?". With these doubts in mind I think that the very powerful subconscious mind decides to 'help'. The trouble is that the subconscious mind is a bit of a neanderthal when it comes to hitting stuff.

So my suggestion is to take too much club for a while, perhaps 2 clubs too many, and see what that does to the real swing.

[zenchili]

porkman, on Sep 29 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

The practice swing is played without anxiety, in the ideal world of the imagination. It's not too hard to make a good swing in this wonderful world.

With the ball there on the ground, its back to the real world. I think the main anxieties of improving players is "can I hit it the distance?" and "am I going to make good contact?". With these doubts in mind I think that the very powerful subconscious mind decides to 'help'. The trouble is that the subconscious mind is a bit of a neanderthal when it comes to hitting stuff.

So my suggestion is to take too much club for a while, perhaps 2 clubs too many, and see what that does to the real swing.

I understand what you're saying about playing in the ideal world of the imagination and there is no anxiety there. But I disagree because on the driving range there should already be no anxiety, or at least it does not really compare to the anxiety on the course. But I still see major differences with the practice swing and the actual swing on the driving range.

I agree that the subconscious does try to help. But I think it does it because it does not trust that a swing just like the practice swing you just did can get the job done. So, in my mind, that takes us to the important question: How do build that trust?

You build it by building up experience or memories where you're practice swing got the job done. But it's a bit of a catch 22. If you can't reproduce your practice swing when hitting the ball, then you can't build up those memories, because they never happen.

You also need to monitor the swings. If I go out and practice alone without a video camera, I actually have no idea which swing hit the ball. I can swing, and feel like I did everything right, then look at the video and be horrified by an over the top move. And it has happened.

[Pepperturbo]

zenchili, on Sep 29 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

golf ball, on Sep 29 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

I think it might be as simple as the players conception of where the target is, is too far left. And when people try to correct it they end up going further left. Longer club the more the target is to the right of them........ just a theory.

I think that there is a comfort zone involved. What I mean is that if I try to aim more right, I'm not naturally comfortable with it and I'll find another way to compensate for it. I really feel that our relationship to the golf ball plays a big part. There's apprehension about not hitting a good shot. There's a lot of of bad shots in our memory banks. So hitting a golf ball is not a simple as hitting a golf ball.

That's why I'm sure it requires a transition to make your practice swing your real swing. That transition is supported by swing thoughts, and building up a library of memories of doing it the right way which builds trust in the swing. And that is where we want to get to. We want to get to the point where we truly trust our swing. I'm not there yet, but I'm building to that.

Each of your posts has a tone of confidence that's beyond the average golfer. What's your index? (never mind I looked at your blog) I now have a different perspective on this thread... later

Just because you or anyone else video tapes their swing doesn't necessarily mean their assessment is accurate. What you are hoping to accomplish with this thread?

[carrera]

Pepperturbo, on Sep 29 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

Just because you or anyone else video tapes their swing that doesn't necessarily mean their assessment is accurate.

I've always felt that many attributes of an OTT move are clearly visible on a video DTL view. You can see the right elbow's and right shoulder's movements, for example.

[Ezgolfer]

Orangewhip is a great training tool . Once again ....I am not related to them in any way . it has helped me to find the correct left swing path .

Besides the anxiety over the ball is whether i will strike the ball at the lowest impact point . You are not worried with a practice swing as such thing does not exist.
However over time your pracite swing can be made to hit the ball a good distance . Remember swing is just a part of the equation , proper impact is more important .

You need to stop the tendency or urge to hit the ball ....Easier said than done , difficult for a weekend high handi amateur . You need to hit buckets .......with each ball reminding yourself not to hit the ballswing through it and reach the same finish position as with your practice swing , and refine your impact angles over time .

[boo radley]

I'm just curious -- don't you find that the foam/whiffle balls put even MORE stress on you? If it doesn't fly properly, or goes left or right or high or low, don't you directly translate this into a mishit, or swing flaw? With commensurate concern?

[rok78]

Saw your 2 swings on the blog, post them here. Your intent on your practice swings are far different than when you hit the ball. On your practice swing you look at your club on the backswing, while on your real swing you don't do that. I'd be interested in seeing your practice swing as if a ball was in the way.

The most obvious fix to me is that the "feels" you are working on translating are not extreme enough. Your practice swing should look NOTHING like you want your real swing to look if you're trying to make a major change like your OTT move. It should look like the polar opposite of your real move and you should take that feel to your real swing to make it look different. Keep monitoring your progress and lesson the exaggerated feel as you ingrain the change.

Also, there's a reason why a lot of tour pros who try to make changes, start with shorter clubs and slower swings, then move up.

[aslan]

My last hole I played, I was trying to put the clubhead on the ball, really focusing on this
aspect of the swing,before I swung I had no intent of doing this. So, I was guiding it, not swinging the club, it made for a very poor shot.

[rteach1]

Jim Waldron, founder of the Balance Point Golf School, in Portland, Oregon, deals at great length with this issue. He call what you are referring to "the hit impulse." You might want to check out his excellent web site.

In addition, Brian Manzella has stated that golfers don't have to be concerned with squaring the face during a practice swing. Therefore, it is much easier for a practice swing to be on plane, since an open face on the downswing will help induce the OTT move.

rteach1

[DaveLeeNC]

rteach1, on Sep 29 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

Jim Waldron, founder of the Balance Point Golf School, in Portland, Oregon, deals at great length with this issue. He call what you are referring to "the hit impulse." You might want to check out his excellent web site.

In addition, Brian Manzella has stated that golfers don't have to be concerned with squaring the face during a practice swing. Therefore, it is much easier for a practice swing to be on plane, since an open face on the downswing will help induce the OTT move.

rteach1

http://www.balancepo.../philosophy.php is (I assume) a summary of Jim Waldron's teaching philosophy. Note that he does seel a book (fairly expensive), so this is not "the whole thing" (I would assume).

dave

[9 iron]

Without regard for coming over the top, I totally understand the "Trying to kill the ball" problem. I can start out on the range with a nice relaxed swing, good tempo, proper plane, and then I get greedy.

"I know I can hit this 6 iron longer than this....."

Next thing I know, I'm trying to kill that little white ball to get my distance and because of that my whole swing falls apart. Tempo, plane, everything. Start hitting fat, topping the ball, swinging too fast and hard at the beginning of the downstroke.... you name it. Once I go back to concentrating on smoothness and a slow tempo and tell myself "distance be damned", I start hitting it well again.

I've gotta get me some of those little foam balls!

[zenchili]

Pepperturbo, on Sep 29 2009, 08:14 PM, said:

zenchili, on Sep 29 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

golf ball, on Sep 29 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

I think it might be as simple as the players conception of where the target is, is too far left. And when people try to correct it they end up going further left. Longer club the more the target is to the right of them........ just a theory.

I think that there is a comfort zone involved. What I mean is that if I try to aim more right, I'm not naturally comfortable with it and I'll find another way to compensate for it. I really feel that our relationship to the golf ball plays a big part. There's apprehension about not hitting a good shot. There's a lot of of bad shots in our memory banks. So hitting a golf ball is not a simple as hitting a golf ball.

That's why I'm sure it requires a transition to make your practice swing your real swing. That transition is supported by swing thoughts, and building up a library of memories of doing it the right way which builds trust in the swing. And that is where we want to get to. We want to get to the point where we truly trust our swing. I'm not there yet, but I'm building to that.

Each of your posts has a tone of confidence that's beyond the average golfer. What's your index? (never mind I looked at your blog) I now have a different perspective on this thread... later

Just because you or anyone else video tapes their swing doesn't necessarily mean their assessment is accurate. What you are hoping to accomplish with this thread?

You're right, just because someone video tapes there swing does not make the assessment accurate. I've spent the last year and half learning everything I can about the swing, but it's true, not everyone has done that.

What do I want to accomplish with this thread? Well, this is something that I've been trying to get a better handle of recently. I was discussing this issue with a friend of mine and we are both in agreement that this is something that plagues the average golfer. I want to find a solution for myself and to help out other golfers who face the same issue. I'm putting out my methods, discoveries and understandings, and want to hear whether other people agree, disagree, or have other ideas that can contribute to this discussion. In short I'm reaching out to the community about something that I think is important.

[zenchili]

boo radley, on Sep 29 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

I'm just curious -- don't you find that the foam/whiffle balls put even MORE stress on you? If it doesn't fly properly, or goes left or right or high or low, don't you directly translate this into a mishit, or swing flaw? With commensurate concern?

No. This does not concern me, as I get more accurate validation on the range. The objective of the foam ball is to get get repetitions with the practice hitting something that should create the same kind of response in the mind. So it's used more as a way of retraining or reprogramming that stimulus/response chain. I'm also not that concerned because I know the quality of shots that I hit. As I said, I'm a decent ball striker with my "regular" swing. But I'm doing this because I feel that this is the way to become a much more consistent and accurate ball striker.

[zenchili]

rok78, on Sep 29 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

Saw your 2 swings on the blog, post them here. Your intent on your practice swings are far different than when you hit the ball. On your practice swing you look at your club on the backswing, while on your real swing you don't do that. I'd be interested in seeing your practice swing as if a ball was in the way.

The most obvious fix to me is that the "feels" you are working on translating are not extreme enough. Your practice swing should look NOTHING like you want your real swing to look if you're trying to make a major change like your OTT move. It should look like the polar opposite of your real move and you should take that feel to your real swing to make it look different. Keep monitoring your progress and lesson the exaggerated feel as you ingrain the change.

Also, there's a reason why a lot of tour pros who try to make changes, start with shorter clubs and slower swings, then move up.

For several months I actually did allow my head to rotate with my core on my actual swing. I just don't do that anymore. I found it a useful movement for some time.

I absolutely agree that changes that you are trying to ingrain should be more extreme. As you need to sort of snap your body out of doing the usual.

However, when I have, on that rare occasion, accomplished that goal of hitting the ball with a swing that looks like my practice swing, the results have been awesome. They inspire to want to do that every shot. I realize you can just decide to swing that way.

The current behavior/reaction to the ball is pretty deeply ingrained. After all, I've probably been doing it most of the time I have been golfing. Which is why I believe several different things have to happen. The most important is the reprogramming of the stimulus/response chain, as I believe that is the key to it all. The golf swing, especially the downswing takes place in less than a second. There is no time to think your way through it. Change the response to the stimulus and you change the result and it becomes automatic.

The swing thoughts and exaggerated movements are secondary to the reprogramming of the stimulus/response chain.

[zenchili]

aslan, on Sep 29 2009, 09:39 PM, said:

My last hole I played, I was trying to put the clubhead on the ball, really focusing on this
aspect of the swing,before I swung I had no intent of doing this. So, I was guiding it, not swinging the club, it made for a very poor shot.

I totally agree. Guiding it does not work. It creates tightness and leads to inconsistency. A free flowing swing, controlled by the subconscious will be more accurate and powerful than a guided swing. And that's the goal I'm trying to accomplish.

[zenchili]

DaveLeeNC, on Sep 29 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

rteach1, on Sep 29 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

Jim Waldron, founder of the Balance Point Golf School, in Portland, Oregon, deals at great length with this issue. He call what you are referring to "the hit impulse." You might want to check out his excellent web site.

In addition, Brian Manzella has stated that golfers don't have to be concerned with squaring the face during a practice swing. Therefore, it is much easier for a practice swing to be on plane, since an open face on the downswing will help induce the OTT move.

rteach1

http://www.balancepo.../philosophy.php is (I assume) a summary of Jim Waldron's teaching philosophy. Note that he does seel a book (fairly expensive), so this is not "the whole thing" (I would assume).

dave

I will definitely look into this. Thank you Dave and rteach1

[zenchili]

9 iron, on Sep 29 2009, 10:58 PM, said:

Without regard for coming over the top, I totally understand the "Trying to kill the ball" problem. I can start out on the range with a nice relaxed swing, good tempo, proper plane, and then I get greedy.

"I know I can hit this 6 iron longer than this....."

Next thing I know, I'm trying to kill that little white ball to get my distance and because of that my whole swing falls apart. Tempo, plane, everything. Start hitting fat, topping the ball, swinging too fast and hard at the beginning of the downstroke.... you name it. Once I go back to concentrating on smoothness and a slow tempo and tell myself "distance be damned", I start hitting it well again.

I've gotta get me some of those little foam balls!

Very true getting greedy can totally disrupt the swing. But read the following and think on it for a bit.

I did an interesting experiment with three practice swings. I did a slow smooth tempo, a medium tempo, and a fast tempo swing. The most interesting part about that was because they were practice swings, there was no over the top on any of them. Even the fast tempo had none. Conversely, I've also done experiments where I really concentrate on a slow practice swing, and then try and match the same tempo to an actual swing. Slow or not, going for distance or not, that OTT move would creep in. That's where I got the idea that the ball had something to do with it. So I can create a ton of club head speed with my practice swing and not have an OTT move happen. Or I can take a slow actual swing, that's not trying to be greedy, and get OTT. It didn't make sense to me and I had to figure it out.

[rteach1]

Homer Kelly also refers to this as "downstroke blackout" in The Golfing Machine.

I have this problem in spades. I once tried a "double pump" swing where I pumped a la the well-known pump drill. Well, I saw on tape that my actual swing at the ball bore no resemblance to the pump. The pump would be about 10 degrees inside-out and the actual swing would be about 10 degrees outside-in! The problem was, they both *felt* the same.

By the way, with wiffle balls and the "Inside Approach," I never knock off the foam pad. On the course, well...that's a different story. The hit impulse takes over.

Lately, I've had some success with just using a much shorter backswing combined with brushing my right forearm/elbow against my right hip on the downswing. This is too new to claim victory yet. Plus, I haven't taped it yet. If I continue to get good results, I won't. I'm afraid that I won't like what I see. If I get results, screw the looks. I've been too focused on getting that shaft through the right forearm *look* rather than on the ball flight.

rteach1

[dap]

The hit instict can be very hard to overcome if it can be done at all.

One solution is to make your practice swing "incorrect".For example,if you tend to release early and hit fat shots on your real swing but can make a divot start where it's supposed to start on your practice swing.You would need to exaggerate the practice swing to make the divot start at least six inches in front of where the ball would have been.So instead of trying to get rid of the hit instict,you can try to use it.

I have seen good players do really weird practice moves which don't look anything alike during their real swing.

In your case,it's OTT so you might have to really emphasize more than normal getting the right shoulder down and under and get the divot to point right in your practice swing.

[zenchili]

rteach1, on Sep 29 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

Homer Kelly also refers to this as "downstroke blackout" in The Golfing Machine.

I have this problem in spades. I once tried a "double pump" swing where I pumped a la the well-known pump drill. Well, I saw on tape that my actual swing at the ball bore no resemblance to the pump. The pump would be about 10 degrees inside-out and the actual swing would be about 10 degrees outside-in! The problem was, they both *felt* the same.

By the way, with wiffle balls and the "Inside Approach," I never knock off the foam pad. On the course, well...that's a different story. The hit impulse takes over.

Lately, I've had some success with just using a much shorter backswing combined with brushing my right forearm/elbow against my right hip on the downswing. This is too new to claim victory yet. Plus, I haven't taped it yet. If I continue to get good results, I won't. I'm afraid that I won't like what I see. If I get results, screw the looks. I've been too focused on getting that shaft through the right forearm *look* rather than on the ball flight.

rteach1

"Downstroke Blackout" I like that.

I understand why you don't want to tape that. If you're getting good results, then stick with it. I'm glad you found something that is working for you.

I think that for me this change will be a game changer.

[zenchili]

dap, on Sep 30 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

The hit instict can be very hard to overcome if it can be done at all.

One solution is to make your practice swing "incorrect".For example,if you tend to release early and hit fat shots on your real swing but can make a divot start where it's supposed to start on your practice swing.You would need to exaggerate the practice swing to make the divot start at least six inches in front of where the ball would have been.So instead of trying to get rid of the hit instict,you can try to use it.

I have seen good players do really weird practice moves which don't look anything alike during their real swing.

In your case,it's OTT so you might have to really emphasize more than normal getting the right shoulder down and under and get the divot to point right in your practice swing.

That's pretty controversial. Have an incorrect practice swing. I don't know if I'm ready for that.

Seriously I think the key is in the "hit" instinct, or the stimulus/response I've been talking about. I think that is the root. And if you can fix that, the rest is cake, the rest is technique. The problem is that the hit instinct sort of hijacks the brain, this, in my opinion, makes learning proper technique more difficult, as the "hit" instinct just keeps getting in the way.

I have lots of training aids that I've tried, some that I would even recommend. But it's like trying to change the the inside (the subconscious instinct), by changing the outside (the path, etc). I just don't think that works so well. I think you need to change the inside with the inside.