To all of you out there who are either self-proclaimed or publicly-proclaimed sandbaggers, or if you just have an opinion about sandbagging...
Why do you do it? Ever since I was young, I have grown with the unshakable idea that you should strive to do the best you can possibly do every single time. This means that when I ran cross country, swam, ran track, and participated in martial arts (while I was healthy, i am currently injured and not practicing or playing ), I would give 110% in every single endeavor I would undertake. Sandbagging seems to completely go against what I believe, so I cannot comprehend why you out there would do it. Can you please enlighten me? Thanks guys!
Believe it or not, some people actually cheat to win!
Seriously though, sandbagging has been around forever. My mom does it sometimes to win club championships! She will purposely shoot high scores a few weeks before a tournament to, "Get her handicap up," because she won't win with her current, "low," handicap. She doesn't look at it as cheating. Just getting her handicap to where it should be for her age or how she feels she is playing. So many of us can't live up to our current handicap while playing in tournaments due to pressure. So they fudge it a little.
Many people golf for big money and they need a high handicap to win. Others just want to win something, anything, for bragging rights or whatever. I guess it could be summed up as, "Greed."
When I was at my best, before numerous back injuries, I wanted my handicap as low as possible. I loved bragging about that.
I used to be a very good bowler, averaging over 220 at several different houses. I had surgery on my wrist and had quit for about 5 years. I bowled 1 year and quit for another 3. This year I decided to bowl again and I did not have an average so you have to establish one. well after 2 weeks I was averaging 181! I could not find my rythm and my footwork was all wacked out. I decided to try something totally different tonight since I could no longer throw it like I used too. I ended up shooting a 278-300-214 for a 792 series. Everyone kept saying I was a sandbagger which bugs me. I honestly can not stand when people do it on purpose. I was really trying the first two weeks but I just wasnt able to get anything going.
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
I'm not a sand bagger, but I belonged to two different clubs and only kept a proper handicap at one of them, when I went to the junior club champ for the course I didn't keep it at they had me down at a 20 when I was a 12. The scores were a couple that I had put in a couple years ago.
I told them my real handicap, and insisted they change it. For some reason they refused.
Needless to say I won the overall net by like 20 strokes.
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
I'm also in amazement of what drives people to sandbag. A mate who came running up in the C-grade champs last year has played well since and a good round the other day took him into A-grade. Upon congratulating him on reaching A grade (where he should be) he said he now needs to blow out quickly with the champs coming soon, so so he can win B-grade. What?
Ya it drives me nuts. I know several people who do it including my brother. He wins money in tournaments by sandbagging. I don't think I'll ever win anything but as least I won't cheat to win.
at my course you can only put in cards for handicap during tournaments
its good in ways that it stops people from going out and playing purposely awful to get a high handicap for when they play in comps
however it makes it alot harder for genuine golfers like me to get my handicap down, whichi am desperately trying to do at the moment
and i would much rather have a low handicap than have a high one to give myself an unfair advantage in a comp
Sandbagging is safer than steroids.
Net effect is the same...gives someone an unfair advantage.
I see what you are saying..and if everyone did the same (state their true handicap), it would work fine. But many people lie, cheat, steal..human nature I guess. In some cases, people do not keep a true handicap, so when they guesstimate...they err on the high side.
Bottom line is that you have to be true to yourself and police yourself. If someone does call you a sandbagger when you are not - at least you can hold your head high.
They are all same.
You know who you are.
I see it all the time. I hate it. Golf is based on honor system. If you sandbag, then you are lying to yourself and to your friends.
Just because sandbaggers been around for long time, doesn't make it right..
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
What is a "tournament handicap" and how to do you get one? Do you simply post only tournament scores and ignore the others? I'm not aware of a USGA Handicap System Rule that requires that you "try as hard as you optimally can" before you post a score.
I can understand the rationale, but I have never encountered it (within the USGA system).
The USGA system has a methodology for handling Tournament Scores that are better than your aggregate scores. Labeling this as an "invalid handicap" looks wrong to me. If his/her T-Scores are way better, then he will get a reduced ("R") index.
If you think that this situation is the essense of "the sandbagging problem" within the US system, I would strongly disagree. There are serious problems - this isn't it (IMHO).
dave
ps. I am trying out a new driver today. I am not expecting it to perform as well as my current go-to driver. But range experience and on-the-course experiences can be different. I would never do this in a serious competition, but I will (regardless) post the score. I can't imagine any USGA official suggesting that I not post this score (assuming that all the other conditions described in USGA Handicap Manual Section 5 are met).
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
I must politely, but strongly disagree with this. What he is describing is not "sandbagging" in my opinion. In fact, what he is describing is required.
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5-1. Acceptability of Scores
Fair handicapping depends upon full and accurate information regarding a player's potential scoring ability as reflected by a complete scoring record. Every player must be responsible for returning all acceptable scores, as defined in this section. For handicap purposes, all Section 4 adjustments, including Equitable Stroke Control, must be applied to all scores including tournament scores.
---------------------------------------------------------
If you want a legitimate handicap, you must post the scores of every round played on a course with a USGA course/slope rating (indeed, even partial rounds ... if you play any more that 13 holes, you must post an 18 hole round). There are exceptions to this, but the principle is that all rounds should be counted ... no one should have a sandbagging handicap, or a vanity handicap.
A great number of average golfers (indeed, most) - who aren't pros, and cannot spend endless hours on the range - do a lot of their "practicing" while they are playing. What this guy is describing is completely normal ... hitting a driver a lot to work out some swing change, etc., etc.
When I, for instance, get a new set of irons, it usually takes me a month or two to get fully used to them. I'll try different shots with them, get a feel for what they can do. My scores sometimes go up slightly. If it so happens that I play a tournament during that period, I'll naturally go back to the clubs I'm used to. According to you, this is "sandbagging".
Another example ... there's courses I play that have "risk/reward" holes ... if I'm driving well on a particular day, I may decide to try to fly some water (for instance), while during a tournament ... I'd almost invariably lay up ("smart golf" as the fellow calls it). Am I "sandbagging"? Good grief no.
In fact, I'm not sure if I know a single (decent, experienced) golfer that doesn't concentrate a bit harder, and make more conservative course management choices during a tournament.
Amateur golf is supposed to be a sport ... i.e., fun. The total purpose of playing golf is not to get a perfect handicap ... it is to have fun. Sometimes one just wants to grip it and rip it. Try a low percentage shot. To go for something with high risk and high reward. It is what the average weekend is made of.
In fact, the USGA system understands that most amateurs practice on the course ... it is why the system only uses the average of the best scores, and throws out the worst.
"Sandbagging", in my opinion, is purposely and intentionally attempting to raise one's handicap in order to gain an unfair advantage in competitions.
What this guy described is certainly not sandbagging ... in fact, what he described is keeping a handicap that is exactly in accordance with USGA rules.
There is no such thing as a "Tournament" handicap. There are rounds that you need to mark with a "T" ... this decision is actually not made by the player, but rather by the Committee that is organizing the tournament (because not every "tournament" is a tournament ... a Club Championship usually is a T, for instance, while a charity tournament in which half the field is blasted by the ninth hole ... is not).
And indeed, there are complex rules by which one's Handicap for a tournament is lowered if the player has 2 or more T-Scores in their current record. In short, the rules themselves already take everything into account.
In other words, the rules themselves are set up to catch sandbaggers (doesn't mean there's not ways around the rules - but the concept is acknowledged).
Point is ... this guy has a perfectly valid - in fact, completely normal - USGA Handicap. He practices on the course sometimes (as pretty much every amateur golfer does). Takes some rounds more seriously than others. Concentrates a bit more, and plays more cnservative golf during tourneys (as pretty much every amateur also does). And he enters every score ... as the Rules require.
I dont get the concept of sandbagging either. Even if I were a 25 handicap, I'd still want to play a lower handicap or even a scratch golfer because I know that I must shoot one hell of a game to get close or beat that opponent. For me, the rush is in knowing that I may have a higher handicap, but since there are no strokes...I'm forced to play better and adopt a higher focus on course management. A trophy does not mean s**t to me if I know I cheated.
It's almost to the point where I think the handicap system should be done away with and then it's every man for themselves. But then again, that would not be fair to those who follow and honor the integrity of the game and follow the handicap system.
In my experience this is always been the low handicapper who is sick of being beat (net) by an 18 who "goes off" and shoots an 82 that day.
Many people (that I know) will "sandbag" as they feel justified because "everyone else is doing it" and therefor they are just leveling the playing field. In some instances this might be the case, but not always. I do believe that the only realistic solution is to only consider scores from previous tournaments - omitting the index from the normal day to day rounds. While this scenario doesn't eliminate the sandbagger who enters a tournament for the first time, it does "weed out" those who make a career of cheating those of us that would like to compete on a level field.
Sandbagging is prevalent, everyone wants gift certs or cash in big events, stealing from your friends is what i call it
For example, Half our Wed men's nights are net, we get 80-100 guys every week for a 2pm shotgun
I am a ~ 3.5 index.
If I told you the number of times a guy has netted between 61 to 64 you'd throw up. We had a 17 shoot 80 a month ago. That is insane sandbagging and he has dropped in 4 weeks to a 10 and is whining about itHe beat me straight up !!!
Our course (from the blues is sloped over 140) is very hard. Three 80's wins the Club C's from the Gold Tee's
Don't get me started on all the 9's and 10's that shoot 78 frequently on Wed.
My best score at home is a 74 this year (which is below scratch). In 5 years I've been under par once on this track. So some nights I need to shoot a 67 or 68 to have a sniff ... c'mon.
When the same 10 names win all the net events regularly - you have major problems
Sandbagging is prevalent, everyone wants gift certs or cash in big events, stealing from your friends is what i call it
For example, Half our Wed men's nights are net, we get 80-100 guys every week for a 2pm shotgun
I am a ~ 3.5 index.
If I told you the number of times a guy has netted between 61 to 64 you'd throw up. We had a 17 shoot 80 a month ago. That is insane sandbagging and he has dropped in 4 weeks to a 10 and is whining about itHe beat me straight up !!!
Our course (from the blues is sloped over 140) is very hard. Three 80's wins the Club C's from the Gold Tee's
Don't get me started on all the 9's and 10's that shoot 78 frequently on Wed.
My best score at home is a 74 this year (which is below scratch). In 5 years I've been under par once on this track. So some nights I need to shoot a 67 or 68 to have a sniff ... c'mon.
When the same 10 names win all the net events regularly - you have major problems
I'm not sure why it isn't brought up more often ... but there are a lot of checks and balances built into the USGA Handicap system. One of the biggest being the Handicap Committee at each club.
For instance, Section f. of part 8 of the USGA rules:
" f. Examining Results of Competitions
The Handicap Committee should examine results of competitions. If net scores of any players appear exceptional, the Handicap Committee should take appropriate action under procedures in Sections 8-4 and 10-3. (See Appendix E.) The golf club or Handicap Committee should forward exceptional tournament scores of guests to the guest's golf club or golf association."
If those same 10 names are shooting unusually low net scores - indicating (as you say) that there is indeed, obviously a problem ... the Handicap Committee not only ought to be informed, there's actually a number of things they can do (and should - according to their well defined USGA responsibilities).
I currently play to an 11 because of lack of practice time etc. I have played as low as an 8. I have never played in an official tournament, but I make a conscious effort to practice a bit more than I normally do when I am playing competitively with my buddies, and my scores are generally better than my handicap because I know how to score lower I just cant pull the shots off as well in my handicap rounds because I dont practice them.
Also, as someone else said, I have fun on the course which includes trying to hit shots that I would not normally try when playing competitively. It is just how it goes, but I post every round, including my 99 at bethpage when I didnt have a great swing and the course beat me up. Sure it looks like I might have been trying to sandbag if you look at my 20 rounds (85,87,83,82,99....) but it just wasnt the case. Anyway, most sandbaggers do it to win.
My buddy was a victim of sandbagging earlier this year. The guy was a "22" who hit almost every fairway, hit probably 5/13 greens (my buddy lost 6&5), and never 3 putted on some very tough greens. My buddy is a true 4 so he was giving a stroke on every hole so he really had no shot, its sad but some people feel it is more important to win than be honorable.
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
Just because I play smart golf when there is something on the line does not make me a sandbagger. I also do not participate in any handicap events! I play to a 3.6 index and I only keep track so I know how well I am doing. I have not played in an event in over 25 years. I am planning on getting in some tournaments next season but they will be scratch tournaments. I do the same with bowling, I do not play in any tournament that requires a handicap. I kind of have my own rule "If I cant beat you heads up then I do not deserve to win!"
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 23 2009, 09:56 AM, said:
I must politely, but strongly disagree with this. What he is describing is not "sandbagging" in my opinion. In fact, what he is describing is required.
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5-1. Acceptability of Scores
Fair handicapping depends upon full and accurate information regarding a player's potential scoring ability as reflected by a complete scoring record. Every player must be responsible for returning all acceptable scores, as defined in this section. For handicap purposes, all Section 4 adjustments, including Equitable Stroke Control, must be applied to all scores including tournament scores.
---------------------------------------------------------
If you want a legitimate handicap, you must post the scores of every round played on a course with a USGA course/slope rating (indeed, even partial rounds ... if you play any more that 13 holes, you must post an 18 hole round). There are exceptions to this, but the principle is that all rounds should be counted ... no one should have a sandbagging handicap, or a vanity handicap.
A great number of average golfers (indeed, most) - who aren't pros, and cannot spend endless hours on the range - do a lot of their "practicing" while they are playing. What this guy is describing is completely normal ... hitting a driver a lot to work out some swing change, etc., etc.
When I, for instance, get a new set of irons, it usually takes me a month or two to get fully used to them. I'll try different shots with them, get a feel for what they can do. My scores sometimes go up slightly. If it so happens that I play a tournament during that period, I'll naturally go back to the clubs I'm used to. According to you, this is "sandbagging".
Another example ... there's courses I play that have "risk/reward" holes ... if I'm driving well on a particular day, I may decide to try to fly some water (for instance), while during a tournament ... I'd almost invariably lay up ("smart golf" as the fellow calls it). Am I "sandbagging"? Good grief no.
In fact, I'm not sure if I know a single (decent, experienced) golfer that doesn't concentrate a bit harder, and make more conservative course management choices during a tournament.
Amateur golf is supposed to be a sport ... i.e., fun. The total purpose of playing golf is not to get a perfect handicap ... it is to have fun. Sometimes one just wants to grip it and rip it. Try a low percentage shot. To go for something with high risk and high reward. It is what the average weekend is made of.
In fact, the USGA system understands that most amateurs practice on the course ... it is why the system only uses the average of the best scores, and throws out the worst.
"Sandbagging", in my opinion, is purposely and intentionally attempting to raise one's handicap in order to gain an unfair advantage in competitions.
What this guy described is certainly not sandbagging ... in fact, what he described is keeping a handicap that is exactly in accordance with USGA rules.
There is no such thing as a "Tournament" handicap. There are rounds that you need to mark with a "T" ... this decision is actually not made by the player, but rather by the Committee that is organizing the tournament (because not every "tournament" is a tournament ... a Club Championship usually is a T, for instance, while a charity tournament in which half the field is blasted by the ninth hole ... is not).
And indeed, there are complex rules by which one's Handicap for a tournament is lowered if the player has 2 or more T-Scores in their current record. In short, the rules themselves already take everything into account.
In other words, the rules themselves are set up to catch sandbaggers (doesn't mean there's not ways around the rules - but the concept is acknowledged).
Point is ... this guy has a perfectly valid - in fact, completely normal - USGA Handicap. He practices on the course sometimes (as pretty much every amateur golfer does). Takes some rounds more seriously than others. Concentrates a bit more, and plays more cnservative golf during tourneys (as pretty much every amateur also does). And he enters every score ... as the Rules require.
Excellent points, Midas.
Just to avoid confusion by others, I'd note that "practice rounds" that are posted must adhere to The Rules of Golf. There are Decisions that help frame this, such as:
Quote
5-1d/2. Status of Scores Made when Two Balls Played Throughout Round
Q: A player frequently plays alone and plays two balls throughout the round. May the player return the score made with each ball for handicap purposes?
A: No. The player may not return the score made with either ball, as such scores are not made in accordance with the Rules of Golf--see Rule 7-2 of The Rules of Golf.
I've played in two tournament handicaps and my net in the two combined is a 22.6. Started shanking all over the place and it was just a bad bad day 2x over. My handicap for the other 51 weeks for the moment is a 6. I would love to be spotted 16 shots and playing up a tee box.
I keep bouncing back and forth between, "What possible satisfaction could anyone have from sandbagging and then winning? I can't believe people would actually do that" and the alternative "Jeez, people kill people over minor amounts of money. Why can't you get it through your head that there's sandbagging going on out there?"
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
So are you honestly saying that you've never tried a crazy "hero shot" when you don't have anything to lose?A shot that if it goes well could mean eagle or birdie but if it goes wrong will certainly make for double or worse? A shot that you might have played safe if you were in contention to win? That sounds like a boring way to play golf on a day to day basis.
I guess that makes me a sand bagger as well.
I've only ever played in gross tournaments in part or in whole because of the sand bagging issues. I really don't care what someone's net score is, especially if they beat their index by a lot. It really seems like the whole system is set up to favor the poor golfer anyway and doesn't really level the playing field unless people are actually abiding by the spirit of the rules and how often does that actually happen in a large field event?
In answer to the original post I'd like to put a little different spin on it if I may.
True sandbagging is simple evolution at work.
Most baggers can't run as fast, jump as high, swim as good, or shoot as straight, and basically cannot compete as well as they used to compared to yesterday or thirty years ago.
Self-doubt is a very powerful thing. So is the desire to win.
Therefore, they know that they "normally" cannot beat the best "heads-up" or in a scratch tournament. Close but no cigar is little consolation.
So the lust for noteriety and rewards replaces ethics and the "love of the game".
A salty old player from my club summed it up quite nicely years ago: "some guys always need to have the edge."
Sandbaggers start a tournament with a significant lead becasue their inflated handicap gives them a cushion. They typically only place out of the money if they've been "out-sandbagged" (which usually really pisses them off). It's like someone getting a significant head start in a foot race.
Some players at my club refuse to participate in any "Net" events for this very reason. Ask members at most private clubs and they will likely tell you that it is often the same players time and time again who win their net tournaments.
It's pathetic really but unavoidable. The USGA handicapping system is easily manipulated if one intends to do so.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 23 2009, 06:56 AM, said:
dpark, on Sep 23 2009, 01:27 AM, said:
joekelli, on Sep 22 2009, 09:05 PM, said:
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
I must politely, but strongly disagree with this. What he is describing is not "sandbagging" in my opinion. In fact, what he is describing is required.
----------------------------------------------------------
5-1. Acceptability of Scores
Fair handicapping depends upon full and accurate information regarding a player's potential scoring ability as reflected by a complete scoring record. Every player must be responsible for returning all acceptable scores, as defined in this section. For handicap purposes, all Section 4 adjustments, including Equitable Stroke Control, must be applied to all scores including tournament scores.
---------------------------------------------------------
If you want a legitimate handicap, you must post the scores of every round played on a course with a USGA course/slope rating (indeed, even partial rounds ... if you play any more that 13 holes, you must post an 18 hole round). There are exceptions to this, but the principle is that all rounds should be counted ... no one should have a sandbagging handicap, or a vanity handicap.
A great number of average golfers (indeed, most) - who aren't pros, and cannot spend endless hours on the range - do a lot of their "practicing" while they are playing. What this guy is describing is completely normal ... hitting a driver a lot to work out some swing change, etc., etc.
When I, for instance, get a new set of irons, it usually takes me a month or two to get fully used to them. I'll try different shots with them, get a feel for what they can do. My scores sometimes go up slightly. If it so happens that I play a tournament during that period, I'll naturally go back to the clubs I'm used to. According to you, this is "sandbagging".
Another example ... there's courses I play that have "risk/reward" holes ... if I'm driving well on a particular day, I may decide to try to fly some water (for instance), while during a tournament ... I'd almost invariably lay up ("smart golf" as the fellow calls it). Am I "sandbagging"? Good grief no.
In fact, I'm not sure if I know a single (decent, experienced) golfer that doesn't concentrate a bit harder, and make more conservative course management choices during a tournament.
Amateur golf is supposed to be a sport ... i.e., fun. The total purpose of playing golf is not to get a perfect handicap ... it is to have fun. Sometimes one just wants to grip it and rip it. Try a low percentage shot. To go for something with high risk and high reward. It is what the average weekend is made of.
In fact, the USGA system understands that most amateurs practice on the course ... it is why the system only uses the average of the best scores, and throws out the worst.
"Sandbagging", in my opinion, is purposely and intentionally attempting to raise one's handicap in order to gain an unfair advantage in competitions.
What this guy described is certainly not sandbagging ... in fact, what he described is keeping a handicap that is exactly in accordance with USGA rules.
There is no such thing as a "Tournament" handicap. There are rounds that you need to mark with a "T" ... this decision is actually not made by the player, but rather by the Committee that is organizing the tournament (because not every "tournament" is a tournament ... a Club Championship usually is a T, for instance, while a charity tournament in which half the field is blasted by the ninth hole ... is not).
And indeed, there are complex rules by which one's Handicap for a tournament is lowered if the player has 2 or more T-Scores in their current record. In short, the rules themselves already take everything into account.
In other words, the rules themselves are set up to catch sandbaggers (doesn't mean there's not ways around the rules - but the concept is acknowledged).
Point is ... this guy has a perfectly valid - in fact, completely normal - USGA Handicap. He practices on the course sometimes (as pretty much every amateur golfer does). Takes some rounds more seriously than others. Concentrates a bit more, and plays more cnservative golf during tourneys (as pretty much every amateur also does). And he enters every score ... as the Rules require.
Forgive me for being blunt Midas, but I don't really care or listen to what you have to say anymore regarding rules after your moronic post about being able to remove OB stakes on the golf course.
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
So are you honestly saying that you've never tried a crazy "hero shot" when you don't have anything to lose?A shot that if it goes well could mean eagle or birdie but if it goes wrong will certainly make for double or worse? A shot that you might have played safe if you were in contention to win? That sounds like a boring way to play golf on a day to day basis.
I guess that makes me a sand bagger as well.
I've only ever played in gross tournaments in part or in whole because of the sand bagging issues. I really don't care what someone's net score is, especially if they beat their index by a lot. It really seems like the whole system is set up to favor the poor golfer anyway and doesn't really level the playing field unless people are actually abiding by the spirit of the rules and how often does that actually happen in a large field event?
In general, I don't try "hero" shots, because they are just that, low-percentage shots. That said, I have tried hero shots in regular rounds and tournament rounds both, when the situation called for it.
What I read out of the post I replied to is that he did shots in regular rounds that he would never do in a tournament (or that is how I interpreted what he wrote). The question that comes to mind is how many times does he do this over the course of a round and how often in multiple rounds does he do this? ESC takes some of the higher scores out of play but if you are 4-5 handicapper and you do this 2-3 times a round and take doubles on those holes, you can raise your handicap easily up to a 8-9.
The question is why do you do those shots? Is it because you are trying to figure out if you can pull it off for when you really need to (in a tournament) or is it because you really are just goofing around but in essence you are trying to raise your handicap?
It is eerily similar to some guys I know in my club that are like 2-3 strokes over par after 15 holes, but end up going double-double-double to close. They know they can shoot 74-76 every time they go out, but they never post a score under 80. They always have an excuse for the poor finish: Oh that putt broke differently than I thought, or I topped that fairway wood etc.
I play to post my best score, with my best effort, every round. I take into account the odd of succeeding on every shot and choose accordingly. However, I also play practice rounds where I play 5-6 balls per hole in the evenings when the course is empty and obviously those I do not post. That is when I try my hero shots. But during a round of golf when I play one ball, whether there is a Coke on the line or a $25 Nassau, I play my best on every single shot. But that's just me I guess.
And I guess that is also the reason why I only play scratch events. I will play with whoever shows up for a regular round of golf, but outside of my own group of 15 guys where we know everyone's handicap inside-and-out, I never play anyone else for money. It just isn't worth the aggravation. Net events are for the birds...
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
Just because I play smart golf when there is something on the line does not make me a sandbagger. I also do not participate in any handicap events! I play to a 3.6 index and I only keep track so I know how well I am doing. I have not played in an event in over 25 years. I am planning on getting in some tournaments next season but they will be scratch tournaments. I do the same with bowling, I do not play in any tournament that requires a handicap. I kind of have my own rule "If I cant beat you heads up then I do not deserve to win!"
If you don't play in handicapped events, then I have no issue at all. Play away
joekelli, on Sep 23 2009, 09:14 AM, said:
I do not play in any tournament that requires a handicap. I kind of have my own rule "If I cant beat you heads up then I do not deserve to win!"
To all of you out there who are either self-proclaimed or publicly-proclaimed sandbaggers, or if you just have an opinion about sandbagging...
Why do you do it? Ever since I was young, I have grown with the unshakable idea that you should strive to do the best you can possibly do every single time. This means that when I ran cross country, swam, ran track, and participated in martial arts (while I was healthy, i am currently injured and not practicing or playing ), I would give 110% in every single endeavor I would undertake. Sandbagging seems to completely go against what I believe, so I cannot comprehend why you out there would do it. Can you please enlighten me? Thanks guys!
Cheating goes against everything I know too. My life is kept simple because my values are honor, integrity and respect; knowing right from wrong, good from bad and keeping my word. Standards that many others think to extreme.
Sandbaggers are nothing more then cheaters with deeply seated character faults. When someone cheats to win it’s because they don’t know right from wrong. IMO cheaters are just like thieves; not smart or talented enough to get what they want the old fashion way. So when they win something they also get a conciliation prize; having to regularly look in the mirror and see a loser.
In my experience this is always been the low handicapper who is sick of being beat (net) by an 18 who "goes off" and shoots an 82 that day.
Many people (that I know) will "sandbag" as they feel justified because "everyone else is doing it" and therefor they are just leveling the playing field. In some instances this might be the case, but not always. I do believe that the only realistic solution is to only consider scores from previous tournaments - omitting the index from the normal day to day rounds. While this scenario doesn't eliminate the sandbagger who enters a tournament for the first time, it does "weed out" those who make a career of cheating those of us that would like to compete on a level field.
You actually know people that sandbag??? If true, you need new friends. When someone hangs around thieves, eventually their values will be questioned. I wouldn't give that type of person the time of day in my life.
If everyone else is doing it; toking, having affairs, divorcing, stealing and burning cars when their team wins, then can we hope the sandbagger will follow the guy that's jumping off a bridge...
PS. I am not referring to the guy that doesn't follow the rules of golf during casual play. I am talking about the cheaters and sleaze balls.
Interesting topic. Surprised that no one has come out and I said. I'm an actual 6 HC but I play in events at 14 cause I like the CAAAASH
Seriously, I'm afraid of the day I get called a sandbagger and I sure hope it comes. Let me explain. I'm currently a 19.3. I can have rounds where I'll have 6 or 7 pars, several bogies, a double and boom 2 or 3 9's that will just come out of nowhere. Those blow up holes keep me in the 95 to 100 range.
I've recounted several recent rounds where if I brought those 9's down to a bogey boom all of a sudden I'm in with a 83 to 85. And if this ever happened in a competitive event, of which I play in several a year, I could hear it now. Sure I could point them to GHIN to review all my scores, but they'd probably think they were made up.
So this isn't said in defense of sandbaggers, quite the opposite. I dispise them as much as everyone, however sooner or later I'm sure I'll find myself in that situation.
Carolina Golfer 2, on Sep 24 2009, 04:30 PM, said:
Interesting topic. Surprised that no one has come out and I said. I'm an actual 6 HC but I play in events at 14 cause I like the CAAAASH
Seriously, I'm afraid of the day I get called a sandbagger and I sure hope it comes. Let me explain. I'm currently a 19.3. I can have rounds where I'll have 6 or 7 pars, several bogies, a double and boom 2 or 3 9's that will just come out of nowhere. Those blow up holes keep me in the 95 to 100 range.
I've recounted several recent rounds where if I brought those 9's down to a bogey boom all of a sudden I'm in with a 83 to 85. And if this ever happened in a competitive event, of which I play in several a year, I could hear it now. Sure I could point them to GHIN to review all my scores, but they'd probably think they were made up.
So this isn't said in defense of sandbaggers, quite the opposite. I dispise them as much as everyone, however sooner or later I'm sure I'll find myself in that situation.
Please forgive me if I misunderstood what you wrote above, or if I'm telling you something that you already know. Your 19.3 index translates, for instance, to a course handicap of 22 on at a 130 slope course, or a 19 on a 114 slope course. For the 22 course handicap round, equitable stroke control requires you to post no more than an 8 on any hole. For the 19 course handicap round, you can't post more than a 7 on any hole. So in both of these instances, the 9s you describe above should probably have already been lowered to 8s or 7s, which would conceiveably lower your handicap. But perhaps you've already done this, and your mention of 9s was only in describing the score you achieved that day, and not the score you entered into the handicap system. Either way, without appropriately lowering these hole scores as required by ESC, one may in fact be, however unintentionally, sandbagging.
Carolina ... not to worry. If I've said it once, I've said it too many times to count, on any given day "any" golfer (I mean any) regardless of index can drop ten strokes or blow up by ten.
Now that I've said that - watch out for idiots that make wild accusations because they don't accept responsibility for their loosing ways. I ran into those types a few times. My solution has been to challenge them to a game for serious $$$; it's amazing how quickly they quietly turn tail with their tail between their legs.
Forgive me for being blunt Midas, but I don't really care or listen to what you have to say anymore regarding rules after your moronic post about being able to remove OB stakes on the golf course.
Um ... okay? Can I be equally blunt? Not entirely certain why this topic has anything to do with that topic. I've been playing golf for over four decades. Am 51. Still play to a single digit cap.
Not saying I'm totally correct on every ruling, every opinion. (In fact, I've never met anyone that is).
You want to look at a single opinion of mine, and on that basis, disregard everything I say in any future post (even if completely unrelated)? Cool dude. Totally go for it.
You wanna trash talk me for a single post out on more than a couple of years of fairly intelligent postys on WRX? Again ... go for it.
But, er, why?
"Bluntly" ... you aren't being realistic here, you're just being crude, and nasty, and personal.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
Um ... okay? Can I be equally blunt? Not entirely certain why this topic has anything to do with that topic. I've been playing golf for over four decades. Am 51. Still play to a single digit cap.
The topic does relate because it has to do with the Rules of Golf, and I don't think you know them nearly as well as you think you do, but want others to believe that you are an expert. BTW, having a single-digit handicap has nothing to do with understanding the Rules of Golf as your arrogant post that it is OK to move OB stakes if they interfere with your swing demonstrated.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
Not saying I'm totally correct on every ruling, every opinion. (In fact, I've never met anyone that is).
Have you ever uttered three particular words? "I was wrong"? Do you realize that in your entire diatribe to me have not actually confessed to being wrong? You come off as a pompus know-it-all, daring other people to prove you wrong and even when others do that, you still never admit you are wrong. Yet, you get very irritated when you get called on it. Hmmm, sounds like a spoiled brat who is not used to being challenged. Grow up.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
You want to look at a single opinion of mine, and on that basis, disregard everything I say in any future post (even if completely unrelated)? Cool dude. Totally go for it.
You wanna trash talk me for a single post out on more than a couple of years of fairly intelligent postys on WRX? Again ... go for it.
When it comes to the Rules of Golf, quite simply, yes. That post pretty much ruined all your credibility, further enhanced by the fact that you are now trying to tie your single digit handicap as some sort of credibility foundation. That (your handicap) is something that has nothing to do with the other (knowledge of the Rules of Golf) as you have amply demonstrated.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
I think it is harder to sandbag in golf but I am sure there are guys who do. I also think someone can appear to be sandbagging but in reallity they are just concentrating more when something is on the line. I know there are times when I play I am trying to do something to make myself better, like hitting driver on every par 4 and 5 just to get better. My score might be higher but its not because I wasnt trying. If I was in a tournament I might only hit my driver a handfull of times. When there is something on the line I will play a lot smarter then I normally would.
Then you should play to a tournament handicap since that is the real indicator of your true golfing ability.
I don't know you and don't know if you realized how some people would react to what you posted, but golfers like you are why I no longer play in net events.
You are a "sandbagger".
By your own admission, you don't play "smart" golf unless you are in a tournament which means your non-tournament scores are not indicative of your actual playing ability, which in turn means your handicap is not valid.
People who "concentrate more" when they are in a tournament or when "something is on the line" are sandbaggers. Period.
So are you honestly saying that you've never tried a crazy "hero shot" when you don't have anything to lose?A shot that if it goes well could mean eagle or birdie but if it goes wrong will certainly make for double or worse? A shot that you might have played safe if you were in contention to win? That sounds like a boring way to play golf on a day to day basis.
I guess that makes me a sand bagger as well.
I've only ever played in gross tournaments in part or in whole because of the sand bagging issues. I really don't care what someone's net score is, especially if they beat their index by a lot. It really seems like the whole system is set up to favor the poor golfer anyway and doesn't really level the playing field unless people are actually abiding by the spirit of the rules and how often does that actually happen in a large field event?
In general, I don't try "hero" shots, because they are just that, low-percentage shots. That said, I have tried hero shots in regular rounds and tournament rounds both, when the situation called for it.
What I read out of the post I replied to is that he did shots in regular rounds that he would never do in a tournament (or that is how I interpreted what he wrote). The question that comes to mind is how many times does he do this over the course of a round and how often in multiple rounds does he do this? ESC takes some of the higher scores out of play but if you are 4-5 handicapper and you do this 2-3 times a round and take doubles on those holes, you can raise your handicap easily up to a 8-9.
The question is why do you do those shots? Is it because you are trying to figure out if you can pull it off for when you really need to (in a tournament) or is it because you really are just goofing around but in essence you are trying to raise your handicap?
It is eerily similar to some guys I know in my club that are like 2-3 strokes over par after 15 holes, but end up going double-double-double to close. They know they can shoot 74-76 every time they go out, but they never post a score under 80. They always have an excuse for the poor finish: Oh that putt broke differently than I thought, or I topped that fairway wood etc.
I play to post my best score, with my best effort, every round. I take into account the odd of succeeding on every shot and choose accordingly. However, I also play practice rounds where I play 5-6 balls per hole in the evenings when the course is empty and obviously those I do not post. That is when I try my hero shots. But during a round of golf when I play one ball, whether there is a Coke on the line or a $25 Nassau, I play my best on every single shot. But that's just me I guess.
And I guess that is also the reason why I only play scratch events. I will play with whoever shows up for a regular round of golf, but outside of my own group of 15 guys where we know everyone's handicap inside-and-out, I never play anyone else for money. It just isn't worth the aggravation. Net events are for the birds...
I personally in casual rounds will try to pull off risk reward shots when ever they come up. Sometimes that is once in a round, sometimes it's 5 or 6. I've never once thought before or after "I wonder how this is going to effect my handicap" that willingness to take risks has helped me in the few tournaments I have played in (none of which were net) because I had a better idea of when I should actually go for it and when I should hold back.
In a casual round I try to play the first shot, shape, and trajectory that pops into my head for that particular situation. In a competitive round I tend to trouble shoot the shots a bit more (in part because I have more time between shots usually). The effect seems to be less eagles and birdies but less double bogie's.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating people throwing away shots for the sake of shooting a higher score. Every shot I take is an effort to get the ball into the hole, but sometimes it doesn't work out. I think intent play a big role in this whole argument.
I've also wondered why people don't just add penalty strokes or whatever to their score at the end of a round before they post it rather than intentionally flubbing chips or missing putts or whatever...
I'm not a sandbagger, but lack of practice and only playing in tournaments has made my hcp. balloon in the last 2 years from 5.2 to 7.5. Now this doesn't sound like much, but as someone who has had a hcp. between 2-7 for the last 30 years, I know that a 7 index does not reflect my playing ability when I'm playing regularly.
For about a month, I went with my buddies for a 4 day golf trip in which I had the chance to practice a couple of hours and play at least 18 holes a day. On the last day I shot the best round of this year, a 3 over 75. The 4 days got my swing back in the groove, and my short game started to come back.
So what happens...I come home, play 2 more rounds the next week and then enter a club tourney...in which I shoot 2 over par or after slope adjustment a net 66. At the prize giving I had to listen to some clown loudly exclaiming that I was a sandbagger, and my hcp. should be reviewed by the commission.
The moral of my story is some people aren't sandbaggers by choice, but have just not played to their potential for an extended period of time. So be carefull not to judge people too fast...throwing unfounded accusations at people can blow up in your face.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
Um ... okay? Can I be equally blunt? Not entirely certain why this topic has anything to do with that topic. I've been playing golf for over four decades. Am 51. Still play to a single digit cap.
The topic does relate because it has to do with the Rules of Golf, and I don't think you know them nearly as well as you think you do, but want others to believe that you are an expert. BTW, having a single-digit handicap has nothing to do with understanding the Rules of Golf as your arrogant post that it is OK to move OB stakes if they interfere with your swing demonstrated.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
Not saying I'm totally correct on every ruling, every opinion. (In fact, I've never met anyone that is).
Have you ever uttered three particular words? "I was wrong"? Do you realize that in your entire diatribe to me have not actually confessed to being wrong? You come off as a pompus know-it-all, daring other people to prove you wrong and even when others do that, you still never admit you are wrong. Yet, you get very irritated when you get called on it. Hmmm, sounds like a spoiled brat who is not used to being challenged. Grow up.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
You want to look at a single opinion of mine, and on that basis, disregard everything I say in any future post (even if completely unrelated)? Cool dude. Totally go for it.
You wanna trash talk me for a single post out on more than a couple of years of fairly intelligent postys on WRX? Again ... go for it.
When it comes to the Rules of Golf, quite simply, yes. That post pretty much ruined all your credibility, further enhanced by the fact that you are now trying to tie your single digit handicap as some sort of credibility foundation. That (your handicap) is something that has nothing to do with the other (knowledge of the Rules of Golf) as you have amply demonstrated.
midasmulligan2000, on Sep 24 2009, 05:32 PM, said:
And no, I'm not gonna let you slide.
Same here.
Robin Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam":
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), I would give 110% in every single endeavor I would undertake. Sandbagging seems to completely go against what I believe, so I cannot comprehend why you out there would do it. Can you please enlighten me? Thanks guys!
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Posted 24 September 2009 - 02:33 PM
