[JCTN]

This should be easy to answer...amazing how rules get turned around if all one does is play with the same group. Situation is: Ball on green at point A. Ball is marked, picked up, cleaned and replaced but marker is not picked up. Player walks around hole to line up putt and while doing so gravity takes over and ball rolls toward hole to point B. My take on this is that the ball is played from point B. "Not so!" according to my rat pack. I think they think that keeping the marker in place is playing it safe against acts of golf gods or anything else happening to the ball...like rolling into the water or sand. The bet is a million dollars on this!

[kevcarter]

You are correct. Once the ball is replaced and at rest it is back in play. Leaving the marker down does not change a thing.

Kevin

[jaskanski]

Correct. A marker is only used to identify the spot from where a ball was lifted - it does not matter if the marker is down and the ball moves. Play it from where it comes to rest. How would you like your million dollars - 50's and 100's?

[JCTN]

OK...I win a cool million. So, follow up questions: If you have replaced the ball and taken your stance (grounded the putter) is there any rule that says you have to remove the marker before you strike the ball? Also can you stop pick up, remark and replace as many times as you want after you have addressed the ball? I've seen pros do that when its windy...

[kevcarter]

JCTN, on Aug 1 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

OK...I win a cool million. So, follow up questions:

1) If you have replaced the ball and taken your stance (grounded the putter) is there any rule that says you have to remove the marker before you strike the ball?

2) Also can you stop pick up, remark and replace as many times as you want after you have addressed the ball? I've seen pros do that when its windy...

1) No
2) Yes

Kevin

[JCTN]

Thanks...now all I have to do is convince everyone. Asking our pro doesn't always help...pro shop has been wrong before.

[yoonie]

It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the putter was soled?

[JCTN]

Under definitions in the rule book:

Addressing the Ball
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance

[yoonie]

JCTN, on Aug 1 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

</a>Under definitions in the rule book:

Addressing the Ball
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his <a href="http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14253#Stance" target="_blank">stance and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance

[OpusX20]

JCTN, on Aug 1 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Thanks...now all I have to do is convince everyone. Asking our pro doesn't always help...pro shop has been wrong before.

Take everyone to the pro shop and have the pro read Rule 20-4:

20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play
If the player's ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

If that doesn't work, have the pro read Decision 20-4/1:
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed

[tjy355]

KevCarter, on Aug 1 2009, 10:27 AM, said:

JCTN, on Aug 1 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

1) If you have replaced the ball and taken your stance (grounded the putter) is there any rule that says you have to remove the marker before you strike the ball?

1) No

I'm not sure that is correct. A marker left in place could be considered an alignment aide.

[hbear]

I was thinking the same thing...
Marker would be an "aide" and therefore must be removed before the stroke is made.
e.g. no different than placing a couple clubs down on the ground to help alignment with the full swing.

[Sawgrass]

hbear, on Aug 4 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing...
Marker would be an "aide" and therefore must be removed before the stroke is made.
e.g. no different than placing a couple clubs down on the ground to help alignment with the full swing.

I believe that the issue depends on what your purpose was in leaving the marker down. If it was for the purpose of aiding alighment, then it is not allowed. If it was for some other odd purpose, such as laziness (for instance wanting to bend down and pick up the holed ball and marker at the same time if it's marked close to the hole), it is acceptable.

[hbear]

Sawgrass, on Aug 4 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

hbear, on Aug 4 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing...
Marker would be an "aide" and therefore must be removed before the stroke is made.
e.g. no different than placing a couple clubs down on the ground to help alignment with the full swing.

I believe that the issue depends on what your purpose was in leaving the marker down. If it was for the purpose of aiding alighment, then it is not allowed. If it was for some other odd purpose, such as laziness (for instance wanting to bend down and pick up the holed ball and marker at the same time if it's marked close to the hole), it is acceptable.

Well that now opens up a can of worms if true....as one can also simply say those clubs laying down near his feet were not "intended" to improve aim...but instead simply laziness on his part to put them back in the bag before he swings....
Or that guy that sets up to try and hack his ball out of some deep rough...but doesn't advance the ball at all can also say his "intent" was a practise swing....and not his "real" stroke at the ball.

[larrybud]

OpusX20, on Aug 1 2009, 07:37 PM, said:

JCTN, on Aug 1 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Thanks...now all I have to do is convince everyone. Asking our pro doesn't always help...pro shop has been wrong before.

Take everyone to the pro shop and have the pro read Rule 20-4:

20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play
If the player's ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

If that doesn't work, have the pro read Decision 20-4/1:
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed

This is the strangest rule in golf. Makes no sense. I can mark a ball, pick it up and replace it as many times as I want. But if the wind blows it, that's the new spot you must play from.

Here's a question, you mark it, the ball blows 6" from it's current spot. Is the ball still considered marked? If not, how far does it have to roll before it's no longer "marked"? If the answer is any amount, haven't we all had a ball that moved 1/4 turn after we replaced it, as we struggle to get the ball to settle down on the green?

[dukedsp]

Quote

1) No
2) Yes

Kevin

A little off topic, but welcome back Kev. Along with your typical well thought out replies I used to always look forward to your answer to rules questions as they would almost always be simple and easily understood.

[kevcarter]

Sawgrass, on Aug 4 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

hbear, on Aug 4 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing...
Marker would be an "aide" and therefore must be removed before the stroke is made.
e.g. no different than placing a couple clubs down on the ground to help alignment with the full swing.

I believe that the issue depends on what your purpose was in leaving the marker down. If it was for the purpose of aiding alighment, then it is not allowed. If it was for some other odd purpose, such as laziness (for instance wanting to bend down and pick up the holed ball and marker at the same time if it's marked close to the hole), it is acceptable.

You NAILED it Sawgrass!

Thanks,
Kevin

[kevcarter]

dukedsp, on Aug 5 2009, 07:45 AM, said:

Quote

1) No
2) Yes

Kevin

A little off topic, but welcome back Kev. Along with your typical well thought out replies I used to always look forward to your answer to rules questions as they would almost always be simple and easily understood.

Thank you Duke!

Kevin

[Sawgrass]

hbear, on Aug 5 2009, 01:28 AM, said:

Sawgrass, on Aug 4 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

hbear, on Aug 4 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing...
Marker would be an "aide" and therefore must be removed before the stroke is made.
e.g. no different than placing a couple clubs down on the ground to help alignment with the full swing.

I believe that the issue depends on what your purpose was in leaving the marker down. If it was for the purpose of aiding alighment, then it is not allowed. If it was for some other odd purpose, such as laziness (for instance wanting to bend down and pick up the holed ball and marker at the same time if it's marked close to the hole), it is acceptable.

Well that now opens up a can of worms if true....as one can also simply say those clubs laying down near his feet were not "intended" to improve aim...but instead simply laziness on his part to put them back in the bag before he swings....
Or that guy that sets up to try and hack his ball out of some deep rough...but doesn't advance the ball at all can also say his "intent" was a practise swing....and not his "real" stroke at the ball.

It is quite true that one can cheat, and probably get away with it, if one wishes to. But there are a number of occasions when your honest intent comes in to play as far as the rules are concerned. For instance, you can legally brush sand from your putting line with your hand if your intent is to clear the way. If your intent is rather to test the surface of the green there is a penalty. You can, of course, lay clubs down on the ground before you hit if your intent is to free your hands. If your intent is to aid in alignment, that's illegal. Often it is only the golfer who knows. It's a beautiful system!

[TwoFours]

also dont forget, that if you take your stance and then back off the putt to reread the line without marking it and the wind blows it 6 inches, you incur a stroke.