[Greenie]

This is why I don't play for money anymore on the course.It sure can turn a nice day of golf into a bad one. Playing for money always brings out the rules police,cheaters and welchers, sometimes all in the same round.I enjoy playing with my friends but we can't even play for pocket change without an argument over something sooner or later during our round.The final straw for me was when I played with my minister and we played for 10 cents a stroke.Don't laugh. He said he wanted to play for something and said lets keep it friendly..At the end of our round I beat him by 9 strokes so when I mentioned well looks like you owe me 90 cents.He says Oh well too bad it wasn't a dollar.90 cents is hardly worth paying you.I said I have 10 cents if you want to give me a dollar.So he says it was just the idea of playing for something that made it interesting..A yr later he joins my foursome and says how about playing for something .I say how about 100 bucks a stroke since it's just the idea of playing for something and you aren't gonna pay anyway if you lose.I mentioned he still owed me 90cents. He gets mad, gives me a dollar and says I am making a big deal out of nothing. I said no I am not making a big deal out of it.I just want my friends to know you have no intention of paying if you lose no matter what the bet is.Needless to say most of our round was played in silence. I just pass on betting now.

[mlamar]

Pepperturbo, on Jul 20 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

mlamar, on Jul 20 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

pete9781, on Jul 20 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...
There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front
of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of
the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

Everyone else in the group agreed

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

I disagree with ===> you are worrying about $15 (I'm not worrying bout $15) .. the issue isn't with the money .. you
win some ... you lose some ( i've been on both sides ) ... cool

Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

[PixlPutterman]

remind me never to bet with alot of you from this thread,

[Pepperturbo]

mlamar, on Jul 21 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Pepperturbo, on Jul 20 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

mlamar, on Jul 20 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

pete9781, on Jul 20 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...
There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front
of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of
the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

Everyone else in the group agreed

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

I disagree with ===> you are worrying about $15 (I'm not worrying bout $15) .. the issue isn't with the money .. you
win some ... you lose some ( i've been on both sides ) ... cool

Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

You've totally missed why some of us think paying is the "right" thing to do. I don't care what someone uses as a reason for not paying either, or how much money is involved, if someone doesn't pay it reflects upon their character. I know right from wrong. I make a bet - I pay if I loose, doesn't matter what the other guy does or doesn't do. I will NOT base my behavior off a looser.

Catching a fly in baseball is not only a poor example; it has NOTHING to do with how we behave in a game or otherwise. I guess some folks can't or choose not to see the bigger issues at hand by not paying. It's quite simple; pay is right - not to pay is wrong!

[Ronzo]

Back when I was a sales engineer playing with my division's salespeople, they would always suggest having bets on the outcome. My response was always, "OK. But we play the ball down, strict rules of golf, as published here." Then I would take my USGA Rules of Golf book out of my bag.

A lot of the talk about betting stopped right there. Some players took me up on it. The better players, usually. The salespeople who were more casual players occasionally did, and I usually made a few bucks off their egos.

Whenever I play with people in a casual round who ask me why I don't roll the ball over, or why I hit from lousy positions, or why I don't take mulligans, I tell them that occasionally, I have to play a round with a client where they want to have a bet going, and I need to practice shots from those positions so I have a prayer of hitting a similar shot in the betting situation if I have to. That and that God doesn't smile on my round if I take a mulligan. Most people get it.

[roll - gybe]

I agree with bits and pieces of everything here.

My view is that you needed to confront him a little earlier. It sucks to have to rise to that level, but when you are faced with tolerating unfairness or getting into it with someone, neither situation is good.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.

There is a possibility that he doesn't perceive his actions to be those of a cheat. There is a chance that he will want to change.

If he is just disgraced, then there is no good in it for the future.

Of course, he was wrong, I don't contest that. Had it been for more dough, enough to make a difference, I think you have another problem:
How can you wait until the end before calling him out? If you wait to see the outcome as your loss, then you have a motive to misrepresent what really happened. Your proof is long gone too.

[mlamar]

roll - gybe, on Jul 21 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

I agree with bits and pieces of everything here.

My view is that you needed to confront him a little earlier. It sucks to have to rise to that level, but when you are faced with tolerating unfairness or getting into it with someone, neither situation is good.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.

There is a possibility that he doesn't perceive his actions to be those of a cheat. There is a chance that he will want to change.

If he is just disgraced, then there is no good in it for the future.

Of course, he was wrong, I don't contest that. Had it been for more dough, enough to make a difference, I think you have another problem:
How can you wait until the end before calling him out? If you wait to see the outcome as your loss, then you have a motive to misrepresent what really happened. Your proof is long gone too.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.


Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

[philfan316]

Rules of thumb with money on the line.

1.) You call someone out immediately. You don't keep a record like a journalist and then drop a bomb on the guy at the end of the round. That only breeds more problems. It looks like you are trying to establish an ace in the hole just in case you lose. Plus, calling them out early ruins thier game most times.

2.) You have to say outloud, "There are no mulligans, lie improvements without consultation, or illegal drops, ballmarking, etc. We are playing by the book, and have a rule book handy. You want to play for money, we play by the rules. But you have to establish this before you even start. Just because rules exist, doesn't mean people are subject to follow them. You have to make it clear that you are serious about the rules.

3.) Try to set the game up yourself. What I mean by that is, if you are playing a guy that is better than you or at least believe he might be sandbagging you, then you ask for odds. Ok, it's like this. You can give me 2 shots a side and we both play for $10 on the nines. OR We can play even scratch golf, and I play for $30 on the nines and you play for $10. There has to be some risk involved on the bet for the better player. So pick one, strokes or odds. He's giving you 1 to 3 odds against. You're giving him 3 to 1 odds on. If you feel you can beat him, or know his game, don't say anything.

[roll - gybe]

mlamar, on Jul 23 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

roll - gybe, on Jul 21 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

I agree with bits and pieces of everything here.

My view is that you needed to confront him a little earlier. It sucks to have to rise to that level, but when you are faced with tolerating unfairness or getting into it with someone, neither situation is good.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.

There is a possibility that he doesn't perceive his actions to be those of a cheat. There is a chance that he will want to change.

If he is just disgraced, then there is no good in it for the future.

Of course, he was wrong, I don't contest that. Had it been for more dough, enough to make a difference, I think you have another problem:
How can you wait until the end before calling him out? If you wait to see the outcome as your loss, then you have a motive to misrepresent what really happened. Your proof is long gone too.

Since you waited until the end, you didn't really give him a chance to make ammends. I'm not so much talking about making ammends per the rules of golf, rather I'm talking about giving him a chance to save face. Instead, he is pretty much left disgraced.


Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

I may have this a little wrong, but you helped him correct his score on #5, but didn't tell him he was breaking rules until 17. I don't know if you mentioned the other infractions earlier. It just seems to me like from Fluffer's perspective (not yours) by the time you brought up a rules violation with him the situation had run amuck. Maybe I got it a little wrong, and I am not trying to butt heads. I'm just saying it is important to figure out what he knows and doesn't know before you fall down on a bet. Sounds like a crappy situation.

I had to deal with a cheat a few weeks ago. The worst part about it was the uncomfortable few minutes when I had to decide how to handle it. It's almost more self-anguish than anything else (unless you aren't playing just for a "fun" amount of money)

In general, I feel personally like I don't like to let those situations persist during the course of a round if they are going to bother me. It's a tough call. I think my ultimate decision node is that I don't want to get to the point where the bet is off. Certainly I don't want anyone to be surprised about it at or near the end of the day. I prefer to hammer out something else, like an offsetting side bet if we can't move on. It may serve the same purpose as calling off the bet, but then no one ever has to be known for falling down.

[Ronzo]

Ian Fleming wrote (in Goldfinger) that, "The only remedy against a cheat at golf is not to play with him again."

There are a few people of my acquaintance with whom I won't play for just that reason. Not just people that don't play the ball down. If there's no money or real pride on the line, it hurts them far worse than me to roll the ball or foot-wedge it. I'm talking about outright cheats -- a couple of whom are my relatives.

[atlanta golfer]

Lefty Putt Righty, on Jul 20 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

boo radley, on Jul 20 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

crtssxc, on Jul 20 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

I agree, everyone should know the rules of the game before it starts. Sometimes people take things too far with everything. With the people I play with it is known that you do not have to hit off the roots of trees, or play a lie where your followthrough could hit a tree etc and hurt yourself or damage your clubs....

God, I hate that twist with a passion -- no offense to you, but I hear that a lot: "Oh, you might hurt your club hitting near that root/tree/rock/gravel..." Fine. Declare an unplayable lie, and take the according penalty. The Rules provide for exactly this situation. It's like getting a free drop from a water hazard, 'cause you'd ruin your clothes with mud if you tried to hit out of it.

Anyway, to the OP - I don't think anyone is arguing that 'Fluffer' is cheating a bit; it's just bad form to wait until the very end and declare you're not paying.

Far better to say, at the first violation: "Man, what are you doing?" Just ask genuinely. Depending on the answer, explain you don't want to play -- for MONEY -- under a different set of rules than had been agreed upon. Instead, it comes across as if you'd welched on a bet, though I agree with your reasons for being unhappy with the situation.

I would have to agree, about the only thing i hate in the rules of golf is one that the masses agree is a terrible rule, playing out of an unrepaired divot in the middle of the fairway. theres nothing more frusterated than crushing one down the middle and finding that half your ball is above ground because some miner didnt feel the need to repair his damage after using a backhoe for his second shot. Argh

I agree, but you know what? ..... I have been in that situation this year at least a couple of key times - once in a match play league match, and once on the 18th hole of a tournament where I had a one stroke lead on another guy in my group going for second place, and we both were in the same area of the fairway. In the first case I made par (but just about broke my hand!) and in the other I made bogie but still finished in second place ahead of the guy I was playing with. My point being, this made me a better golfer, and helped build confidence with me that no matter where I find my ball, I can deal with it and still make a decent score.

[Ronzo]

atlanta golfer, on Jul 24 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

I agree, but you know what? ..... I have been in that situation this year at least a couple of key times - once in a match play league match, and once on the 18th hole of a tournament where I had a one stroke lead on another guy in my group going for second place, and we both were in the same area of the fairway. In the first case I made par (but just about broke my hand!) and in the other I made bogie but still finished in second place ahead of the guy I was playing with. My point being, this made me a better golfer, and helped build confidence with me that no matter where I find my ball, I can deal with it and still make a decent score.

Exactly.

[Jean-Claude]

SJHSCCC, on Jul 20 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

Sounds to me like you must have been having a bad day on the course to worry about small stuff like that. If he kicks out from behind a tree, or pulls the ball out of deep rough sure call him out. But I don't see the harm in adjusting the ball a little when its in the fairway, or patting the grass in front of the ball before putting. You still have to hit the shot. But if that is how you play, you have to call him out, and penalize him if he does it again. Not right to just write it on your card and not pay at the end.

Really? I was under the impression it is up to everyone to keep their own score. If he cheats and waits, it's the cheater's fault. There's no way to justify cheating. Saying his score is legit would be justifying cheating.

[Jean-Claude]

If the OP wants to wait till the end to say something, that's cool with me. Even if his intent was to see if he could win anyways. The point being if he won despite the cheating he is entitled to the money. If the cheater gets called only when he supposedly "wins" that's his loss due to CHEATING. If he had not cheated he wouldn't be facing the issue.

[Bluefan75]

I have to say I am in utter shock that things like "you hadn't agreed on the rules prior to the match" are even posted here. While I can understand things like lift, clean and cheat being agreed to before the round, have we seriously reached a point where not saying "we are playing by the rules of golf" prior to the first tee justifies rolling the ball?

It would seem to me that the default starting point are the RoG. Any deviation from such should be agreed upon prior, however, in the absence of such, RoG prevail.

I wouldn't pay. If the cheater can't call the penalty on himself, when he submits that score, he submitted an incorrect scorecard, and his score is null and void.

It may be time to start distinguishing between playing golf, and whatever it is most people do to pass thetime on a golf course, because it sure as heck isn't golf....

[Pepperturbo]

Interesting perspectives...

Goes to confirm my belief many people vary behavior and choices based on convenience and circumstances; has little or no relationship to the greater deciding factors; knowing right from wrong and solid character.

Told my son last evening darn near every decision he makes shows good or bad judgment and what he values in life. Make the wrong choice once its a mistake to learn from, make it multiple times it not only reflects seriously poor judgment it reflects a lacking that can stay with him over time.

[PixlPutterman]

Pepperturbo, on Jul 21 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

mlamar, on Jul 21 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Pepperturbo, on Jul 20 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

mlamar, on Jul 20 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

pete9781, on Jul 20 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

this is worthless. people will always cheat and you are worrying about $15 you look worse for not paying $15 than he does for cheating. I agree that it sucks that he cheated but you didn't call penalties on him and you lost. Pay him the 15 and next time play for 1500 and play everything down and beat his a**.

I do not agree - I'm not worrying about $15 ... I have won and loss in skin games - no harm no foul ...
There where other infractions ... It came to a head on the #17 when he missed the green and in front
of everyone (he blatantly) improved his lie ... I "Blew Up" then - "WTF are you doing it's the middle of
the summer - no winter rules in effect" ... BTW - he knew this

I actually felt CHEATED -- and you know what - I AIN'T PAYING SHIZNIT !!!!

Everyone else in the group agreed

You asked for the thoughts of others... you got'em. Guess you expected everyone to agree with you... Aside from the rules of golf how each of us behaves playing 18, money or not is a microcosm of the rest of our lives.

I disagree with ===> you are worrying about $15 (I'm not worrying bout $15) .. the issue isn't with the money .. you
win some ... you lose some ( i've been on both sides ) ... cool

Lefty Putt Righty (stated it best):
I love when people dont read an entire post, but are more than happy to give there two cents

first of all he stated he was confronted numerous times by the groups and mlamar.

Second he stated that the rules were established, Two off the first tee. I dont see why he is responsible for establishing playing it down. Thats the rule. If the cheater wanted to fluff he should have clarified he wanted to play the ball up.

If we all go play baseball i dont have to establish that a ball caught in my glove is an out. So why does need to establish established rules.

You've totally missed why some of us think paying is the "right" thing to do. I don't care what someone uses as a reason for not paying either, or how much money is involved, if someone doesn't pay it reflects upon their character. I know right from wrong. I make a bet - I pay if I loose, doesn't matter what the other guy does or doesn't do. I will NOT base my behavior off a looser.

Catching a fly in baseball is not only a poor example; it has NOTHING to do with how we behave in a game or otherwise. I guess some folks can't or choose not to see the bigger issues at hand by not paying. It's quite simple; pay is right - not to pay is wrong!

Ok so we should go play some golf then, and ill cheat and just write downone one stroke less per hole than what you get, and in the end, I expect you to pay.

And the baseball analogy was perfect. Catching the ball in the glove for an out is a no brainer established rule, just as most rules in golf, so why does he need to establish already established rules, pepperturbo, it sounds like you have been not payed before for your cheating ways.

[Ronzo]

^^^
The last phrase is uncalled for, IMO. No evidence of that was presented.

[PixlPutterman]

How so, the guy basically said no matter how bad the guy cheated, one should pay. Thats why i said we should play and ill cheat so bad he has no chance of winning, and ill expect payment for my unearned victory, then we will see how he feels

Plus i made a speculation based on his attitude toward the scenario, i didnt slam him, call him names, or anything like that.

Its pretty sad that the guy who doesnt cheat gets slammed on for not doing a better job of babysitting the cheater.

[Ronzo]

I don't agree with PepperTurbo's contention either, but saying he had not been paid because he had cheated is really out of line.

[Bluefan75]

Lefty Putt Righty, on Jul 27 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

How so, the guy basically said no matter how bad the guy cheated, one should pay. Thats why i said we should play and ill cheat so bad he has no chance of winning, and ill expect payment for my unearned victory, then we will see how he feels

Plus i made a speculation based on his attitude toward the scenario, i didnt slam him, call him names, or anything like that.

Its pretty sad that the guy who doesnt cheat gets slammed on for not doing a better job of babysitting the cheater.

Plus the fact that "the cheater should get paid" sounds painfully ironic coming from someone who in the "hit into at private club" thread was very verbose in informing everyone how he has been in positions of power to ensure member behavior conformed to certain standards. Lecturing on proper behaviour in one thread, supporting cheating in another.....hmmm....