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Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?


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#2191 dhc1

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:41 AM

View Postjuststeve, on 14 November 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

View Postswing thoughts, on 13 November 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'm a 4, and I watch LPGA from time to time, and I think I could win maybe 1/25. Every now and then I'll shoot par on a difficult course. Thing is, she would have to shoot over par on that same day. And she could very well go 8-under and run me off the course on my best day.

My home course is a difficult course, rated 77.1/150.  A 4 doesn't shoot par (72) on that course, no way no how.  Perhaps on some pushover course rated at 70 or so, but not on a difficult course.  A lot of delusional thinking in this thread.

Steve

wow, that's a hard course. I don't think the average LPGA player would break par there either. The consensus guess is that the equivalent for a male is somewhere between a +2 and scratch.


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#2192 skraly

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:24 AM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 13 November 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

View Postskraly, on 13 November 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

View Postswing thoughts, on 13 November 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'm a 4, and I watch LPGA from time to time, and I think I could win maybe 1/25. Every now and then I'll shoot par on a difficult course. Thing is, she would have to shoot over par on that same day. And she could very well go 8-under and run me off the course on my best day.
I finished the season with an index of 0.9.  I’ve had the opportunity to watch a couple of LPGA events in person.  Against any player who can routinely make the cut I wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell.  These gals are as accurate with a hybrid as I am with a PW.  They are better putters than I am.  And they have better short games.  Could lightening strike and I happen to have my best day on a day when they’re off?  I suppose so, but I sure wouldn’t put any money on it.  So if the question is, could a 4 hcp ever beat an LPGA pro if they played 10,000 matches, then I guess it might happen.  If the question is, would a 4 hcp. have any reasonable chance to beat an LPGA pro, than the answer is no.  No way, no how.

I'd buy that they're as accurate with a hybrid than say your six iron. But ill never agree they're more accurate, or even as accurate, with a hybrid as the PW of a guy with a handicap less than one.
My PW over flat ground, no wind on an 80 deg. day is typically a 125 yd. carry.  I consider anything inside 20 ft. to be a very good shot for me.  In the two events I saw in person, in the groups I had a chance to see, they were routinely hitting 170-180 yd. hybrids to that same range.  I’m longer than most of the LPGA pros and I hit it fairly straight.  But the consistancy in their games is an order of magnitude beyond what I am capable of.  Nobody in their right mind would put money on me to beat one of them on any given day.  Yes, if we played enough matches, eventually I would win one.  But I could say the same about a PGA pro as well.  It would just take longer against a male pro.  Rightly or wrongly, I took the original question to be, would a 4 hcp. male have any reasonable chance against an LPGA pro?  And the answer is no, no chance.

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#2193 Texsport

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:48 AM

I see some problems with this discussion:

(1) Most are assuming that a 4 handicap is secured on a 6,000 to 6,500 yd course. What if the 4-handicap is on a 7,000 to 7,200 yd course?

(2) Most discussions are for a theoretical match played on a 6,000 to 6,500 yd course. What if the 4-handicap player from a 7,000 to 7,200 yd course plays the LPGA player on a 7,000 to 7,200 yd course?

(3) Most discussions assume LPGA player performing at peak.

Please consider:

A typical par 4 on a 7,00 to 7,200 yd course is 450 yds, though some may be 470 yds.
- Male 4-handicap player drives it 270 yds. and hits a 5 or 6-iron into the green.(Many 4-handicap males hit it further)
- Typical LPGA player drives it 230-240 yds and hits a 3 or 5-wood shot to the green.(Few LPGA players hit it further)

On longer par 4s, the typical LPGA player can't reach the green in 2.

What say you now? All 4-handicaps are not equal!

BTW - didn't I see an LPGA player shoot 87 last week - on a 6,000 - 6,500 yd course?

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Edited by Texsport, 14 November 2017 - 10:59 AM.

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#2194 juststeve

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:36 PM

Texport:

I don't think you understand how handicaps are calculated.  They are based on the differential between the score one shoots relative not to par but to the course rating adjusted by the slope of the course.  On my home course, 77.1/150 one could maintain a 4 handicap without ever breaking 80.  Hr. 4 would be averaging about 9 over par on the best 10 of his last 20 scores.  The worst 10 would be really ugley.

Our course from the back tees is a bit over 7300 yards.  Par fours range between 385 and 489.  While it is true that many LPGA players would have difficulty reaching the 489 yard hole in two, consistently, so do 4 handicappers and that hole would play over par for anyone.  Its just a tough hole and there is no reason to think that our 4 handicap hero would score better there than the LPGA player.  He is after all of 4 for a reason, its how he scores, not how far he hits it.  

Your obsession with how far people hit thew ball clouds your analysis.  Even a four who hitsd it long doesn't score very well and its score that counts.

Steve.

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#2195 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:49 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 14 November 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Texport:

I don't think you understand how handicaps are calculated.  They are based on the differential between the score one shoots relative not to par but to the course rating adjusted by the slope of the course.  On my home course, 77.1/150 one could maintain a 4 handicap without ever breaking 80.  Hr. 4 would be averaging about 9 over par on the best 10 of his last 20 scores.  The worst 10 would be really ugley.

Our course from the back tees is a bit over 7300 yards.  Par fours range between 385 and 489.  While it is true that many LPGA players would have difficulty reaching the 489 yard hole in two, consistently, so do 4 handicappers and that hole would play over par for anyone.  Its just a tough hole and there is no reason to think that our 4 handicap hero would score better there than the LPGA player.  He is after all of 4 for a reason, its how he scores, not how far he hits it.  

Your obsession with how far people hit thew ball clouds your analysis.  Even a four who hitsd it long doesn't score very well and its score that counts.

Steve.

Very well written post. Length doesn't automatically mean good scores unless your handicap reflects it. Plus, the LPGA on a 489 yard par 4 is likely to hit driver 3W then chip in close enough to par more than half the time.


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#2196 SurfDuffer

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.
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#2197 MrJones

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:58 AM

Lexi Thompson shot a 77 last year at the Kia Classic at around 6600 yards. She then went on to shoot 68-70-73. The worst 4 day score in that tournament was 74 - 72 - 78 - 75  which would be four good rounds for me :lol:


Could a 4 cap luck up and have a great day and beat an LPGA tour player having a awful day? Sure. But he could possibly have the same scenario with a PGA tour player and win (since we're apparently talking about bottom of the rankings type players).

But could a 4 cap beat an LPGA tour player in a 4 day tournament? I'd bet my tiny pitiful paycheck they wouldn't come close.
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#2198 Argonne69

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

View PostSurfDuffer, on 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

Seriously, did you watch the Blue Bay? The players shooting the mid-80's were not LPGA players. They were CLPGA players. The conditions were very tough, and the lower ranked LPGA players still managed reasonable scores. For example, Mariajo Uribe (66T) shot 75-82-78-73 for +20. Cydney Clanton (66T) shot 78-80-75-75 (+20).

So, in tough conditions these lower ranked LPGA players were still able to break 80 in six rounds.

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#2199 North Texas

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:05 AM

View PostSurfDuffer, on 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

And every single day, there are 4 handicappers who don't break 80 on easy courses.

I played with a 2 handicapper yesterday who drives it in the 280-290 range consistently and he shot 80 on a course that's rated 71/124. I'm a 9 and shot 79. Good and bad days happen at every level.

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#2200 oikos1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:15 AM

Would one of the delusional 4's start a go fund me site and get this done.  Surely a 100k purse would peak the interest of a few lpga golfers.


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#2201 dhc1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:53 AM

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostSurfDuffer, on 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

Seriously, did you watch the Blue Bay? The players shooting the mid-80's were not LPGA players. They were CLPGA players. The conditions were very tough, and the lower ranked LPGA players still managed reasonable scores. For example, Mariajo Uribe (66T) shot 75-82-78-73 for +20. Cydney Clanton (66T) shot 78-80-75-75 (+20).

So, in tough conditions these lower ranked LPGA players were still able to break 80 in six rounds.

Argonne,

why do you even bother replying? they're never going to change their minds as to the 4 vs. LPGA, silly as it is.

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#2202 Argonne69

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:09 PM

View Postdhc1, on 15 November 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostSurfDuffer, on 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

Seriously, did you watch the Blue Bay? The players shooting the mid-80's were not LPGA players. They were CLPGA players. The conditions were very tough, and the lower ranked LPGA players still managed reasonable scores. For example, Mariajo Uribe (66T) shot 75-82-78-73 for +20. Cydney Clanton (66T) shot 78-80-75-75 (+20).

So, in tough conditions these lower ranked LPGA players were still able to break 80 in six rounds.

Argonne,

why do you even bother replying? they're never going to change their minds as to the 4 vs. LPGA, silly as it is.

Yes, I know that I'm not going to change their minds. However, I don't like to see falsehoods, or misleading information being passed off as facts. The Blue Bay field had a large number of players from the CLPGA. This tour probably ranks 5th or 6th for talent among the professional tours, behind the LPGA, KLPGA, JLPGA, LET, and Symetra Tour. That's fine, as it's expanding the game into new parts of the world. To use young, upcoming players in the minor leagues as "evidence" that LPGA players can have bad days is just silly.

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating. The lowest finishing LPGA player, Sandra Changkija, is ranked 259th in the World. She has 1 top 10 in 15 events this year, and 3 top tens in six years. She finished at +23 in 72nd place. She still managed a 77, 76, 82, and 76. Lol. That's a bad week in tough conditions. The 4 HC would be lucky to shoot 85 one time in those conditions.

Taoli Yang, a young CLPGA player, ranked #515 in the world, had one round of 86, which was the worst round of the tournament by any player. Think about that for a minute. 316 rounds were played at the tournament, and the worst round was an 86. It was one of the highest scoring tournaments of the year, with only 15 players finishing under par.

Edited by Argonne69, 15 November 2017 - 12:17 PM.


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#2203 Dpavs

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:21 PM

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#2204 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:29 PM

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

View Postdhc1, on 15 November 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostSurfDuffer, on 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

Seriously, did you watch the Blue Bay? The players shooting the mid-80's were not LPGA players. They were CLPGA players. The conditions were very tough, and the lower ranked LPGA players still managed reasonable scores. For example, Mariajo Uribe (66T) shot 75-82-78-73 for +20. Cydney Clanton (66T) shot 78-80-75-75 (+20).

So, in tough conditions these lower ranked LPGA players were still able to break 80 in six rounds.

Argonne,

why do you even bother replying? they're never going to change their minds as to the 4 vs. LPGA, silly as it is.

Yes, I know that I'm not going to change their minds. However, I don't like to see falsehoods, or misleading information being passed off as facts. The Blue Bay field had a large number of players from the CLPGA. This tour probably ranks 5th or 6th for talent among the professional tours, behind the LPGA, KLPGA, JLPGA, LET, and Symetra Tour. That's fine, as it's expanding the game into new parts of the world. To use young, upcoming players in the minor leagues as "evidence" that LPGA players can have bad days is just silly.

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating. The lowest finishing LPGA player, Sandra Changkija, is ranked 259th in the World. She has 1 top 10 in 15 events this year, and 3 top tens in six years. She finished at +23 in 72nd place. She still managed a 77, 76, 82, and 76. Lol. That's a bad week in tough conditions. The 4 HC would be lucky to shoot 85 one time in those conditions.

Taoli Yang, a young CLPGA player, ranked #515 in the world, had one round of 86, which was the worst round of the tournament by any player. Think about that for a minute. 316 rounds were played at the tournament, and the worst round was an 86. It was one of the highest scoring tournaments of the year, with only 15 players finishing under par.

Then he's a pretty poor four. Or a vanity, if he can't break 85 one time in four rounds.
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#2205 Millbrook

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:32 PM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 15 November 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

View Postdhc1, on 15 November 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostSurfDuffer, on 15 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

Seriously, did you watch the Blue Bay? The players shooting the mid-80's were not LPGA players. They were CLPGA players. The conditions were very tough, and the lower ranked LPGA players still managed reasonable scores. For example, Mariajo Uribe (66T) shot 75-82-78-73 for +20. Cydney Clanton (66T) shot 78-80-75-75 (+20).

So, in tough conditions these lower ranked LPGA players were still able to break 80 in six rounds.

Argonne,

why do you even bother replying? they're never going to change their minds as to the 4 vs. LPGA, silly as it is.

Yes, I know that I'm not going to change their minds. However, I don't like to see falsehoods, or misleading information being passed off as facts. The Blue Bay field had a large number of players from the CLPGA. This tour probably ranks 5th or 6th for talent among the professional tours, behind the LPGA, KLPGA, JLPGA, LET, and Symetra Tour. That's fine, as it's expanding the game into new parts of the world. To use young, upcoming players in the minor leagues as "evidence" that LPGA players can have bad days is just silly.

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating. The lowest finishing LPGA player, Sandra Changkija, is ranked 259th in the World. She has 1 top 10 in 15 events this year, and 3 top tens in six years. She finished at +23 in 72nd place. She still managed a 77, 76, 82, and 76. Lol. That's a bad week in tough conditions. The 4 HC would be lucky to shoot 85 one time in those conditions.

Taoli Yang, a young CLPGA player, ranked #515 in the world, had one round of 86, which was the worst round of the tournament by any player. Think about that for a minute. 316 rounds were played at the tournament, and the worst round was an 86. It was one of the highest scoring tournaments of the year, with only 15 players finishing under par.

Then he's a pretty poor four. Or a vanity, if he can't break 85 one time in four rounds.

Are you choosing to ignore the conditions;

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating.

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#2206 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:38 PM

View PostMillbrook, on 15 November 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 15 November 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

View Postdhc1, on 15 November 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:


Every single day 4 handicap players break 80 on courses that are playing harder than LPGA venues.  Every single day 4 handicaps break 80 on courses that are actual LPGA venues when the LPGA comes to town.  Every single week there are a few LPGA players at the bottom of the leaderboard who shoot 80 or higher.  From the most recent event there was an 86 an 85 and several other rounds in the low 80s.  Never say never.

This year I played with two LPGA players in a pro am.  My player on day 1 was lights out.  The player on day 2 was struggling BADLY.  Had we been playing a stroke play format she wouldn't have broken 80 and might not have broken 85.

Seriously, did you watch the Blue Bay? The players shooting the mid-80's were not LPGA players. They were CLPGA players. The conditions were very tough, and the lower ranked LPGA players still managed reasonable scores. For example, Mariajo Uribe (66T) shot 75-82-78-73 for +20. Cydney Clanton (66T) shot 78-80-75-75 (+20).

So, in tough conditions these lower ranked LPGA players were still able to break 80 in six rounds.

Argonne,

why do you even bother replying? they're never going to change their minds as to the 4 vs. LPGA, silly as it is.

Yes, I know that I'm not going to change their minds. However, I don't like to see falsehoods, or misleading information being passed off as facts. The Blue Bay field had a large number of players from the CLPGA. This tour probably ranks 5th or 6th for talent among the professional tours, behind the LPGA, KLPGA, JLPGA, LET, and Symetra Tour. That's fine, as it's expanding the game into new parts of the world. To use young, upcoming players in the minor leagues as "evidence" that LPGA players can have bad days is just silly.

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating. The lowest finishing LPGA player, Sandra Changkija, is ranked 259th in the World. She has 1 top 10 in 15 events this year, and 3 top tens in six years. She finished at +23 in 72nd place. She still managed a 77, 76, 82, and 76. Lol. That's a bad week in tough conditions. The 4 HC would be lucky to shoot 85 one time in those conditions.

Taoli Yang, a young CLPGA player, ranked #515 in the world, had one round of 86, which was the worst round of the tournament by any player. Think about that for a minute. 316 rounds were played at the tournament, and the worst round was an 86. It was one of the highest scoring tournaments of the year, with only 15 players finishing under par.

Then he's a pretty poor four. Or a vanity, if he can't break 85 one time in four rounds.

Are you choosing to ignore the conditions;

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating.

I know. Because our fours have never played undulating greens in tough conditions! :)
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#2207 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:02 PM

View PostMillbrook, on 15 November 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:


Are you choosing to ignore the conditions;

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating.

Remember the Web.com Bahamas Great Exuma Classic in 2017? A first round average score of 80.41. Cut line 11 over par. The wind was a bit heavier than at Blue Bay, but these guys have something like 4 strokes on an LPGA, with a tour average driving distance of 302.9 yards. I really don't think the PGA would have done much better, maybe break 80?

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#2208 dhc1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:11 PM

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 15 November 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

View PostMillbrook, on 15 November 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Are you choosing to ignore the conditions;

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating.

Remember the Web.com Bahamas Great Exuma Classic in 2017? A first round average score of 80.41. Cut line 11 over par. The wind was a bit heavier than at Blue Bay, but these guys have something like 4 strokes on an LPGA, with a tour average driving distance of 302.9 yards. I really don't think the PGA would have done much better, maybe break 80?

PGA players are significantly better than 4 strokes over LPGA players.

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#2209 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:15 PM

View Postdhc1, on 15 November 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 15 November 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

View PostMillbrook, on 15 November 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Are you choosing to ignore the conditions;

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating.

Remember the Web.com Bahamas Great Exuma Classic in 2017? A first round average score of 80.41. Cut line 11 over par. The wind was a bit heavier than at Blue Bay, but these guys have something like 4 strokes on an LPGA, with a tour average driving distance of 302.9 yards. I really don't think the PGA would have done much better, maybe break 80?

PGA players are significantly better than 4 strokes over LPGA players.
I'd guess that they're about 5 or 6 strokes better? I guessed something like 2 strokes better than the Web.com guys?

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#2210 dhc1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 15 November 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

View Postdhc1, on 15 November 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 15 November 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

View PostMillbrook, on 15 November 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Are you choosing to ignore the conditions;

The Blue Bay was played in some tough conditions. The wind was howling, and the greens were very undulating.

Remember the Web.com Bahamas Great Exuma Classic in 2017? A first round average score of 80.41. Cut line 11 over par. The wind was a bit heavier than at Blue Bay, but these guys have something like 4 strokes on an LPGA, with a tour average driving distance of 302.9 yards. I really don't think the PGA would have done much better, maybe break 80?

PGA players are significantly better than 4 strokes over LPGA players.
I'd guess that they're about 5 or 6 strokes better? I guessed something like 2 strokes better than the Web.com guys?

the line between PGA and Web.com is super thin so I'd stick to the 6 stroke differential minimum.


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#2211 rangersgoalie

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:43 PM

I got beat by a 2 handicap I was playing with in the Hope one day at Bermuda Dunes.  I shot73, just played miserably, and he was money all day shooting 72 (give or take)
He was playing different tees, but at Bermuda Dunes, not a ridiculous difference.

I've seen plenty of single digit golfers shoot ridiculously good scores, and I personally shot some pretty bad ones when I was competing.

This thread continues.................................................. :to_become_senile:

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#2212 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:44 PM

My memory is a bit sketchy but if I remember correctly I watched that web.com event fairly closely. Those conditions were significantly worse than those at the LPGA event.
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#2213 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:09 PM

 deadsolid...shank, on 15 November 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

My memory is a bit sketchy but if I remember correctly I watched that web.com event fairly closely. Those conditions were significantly worse than those at the LPGA event.

I'd guess that the conditions were not quite as bad at Blue Bay, but did watch some highlights with pretty puffy wind. The point is even nearly the best players in the world had trouble breaking 80 that day. Conditions could be pretty bad where a slight draw could turn into a big slice like shot.

I played during the Santa Ana winds one time and the ball would take off left or right with a well hit 8i, they kicked me off the course and refunded my greens fees when the trees started making loud creaking sounds.

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#2214 cardoustie

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:18 PM

I can't believe this is alive still
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#2215 dap

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:16 PM

Just out of curiosity does anybody know for a fact how difficult a typical LPGA course is set up in terms of men's scratch rating and slope?


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#2216 juststeve

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 11:51 AM

View Postdap, on 15 November 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity does anybody know for a fact how difficult a typical LPGA course is set up in terms of men's scratch rating and slope?

The best you are going to do is find the rating and slope of the course they are playing and try to extrapolate from there.  Courses that hold professional events don't obtain separate rating of the tournament tees.  They would be irrelevant since the field plays off of scratch.  

Steve

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#2217 dhc1

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 01:26 PM

View Postdap, on 15 November 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity does anybody know for a fact how difficult a typical LPGA course is set up in terms of men's scratch rating and slope?

We did some work over on the LPGA forum and IIRC, it was usually 71-72 rating and slope in the low 130s. Maybe Argonne can correct me.

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#2218 vallygolf

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:58 PM

So here is some empirical actual hard numbers from 3 rounds played by a 4 handicap (well 3.2) against an LPGA  player.  Not a top tier LPGA, but has been in contention in a few tournaments.  Both of us are very familiar with the course.  Played over the past week

Round 1.  We both played the tips  (7200 yards)  Pro: 70  Me 76  (I had an average day, She actually didnt play well.)
Round 2.  She played the tips I played the Reds (5900)  Pro 68  Me 71 (we both had average days, I actually had a good day putting)
Round 3  She played the red, I played the Tips  Pro 64 Me 78  (she played lights out, I had a below average day)

There is really no comparison to a 4 hcp and a pro LPGA golfer.  The consistency and ball striking is so far superior.  Length wasnt a huge issue as she was more accurate and consistent with her 4 iron than I am with my 9 iron.  I really dont see any scenario where I could compete with her.

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#2219 Dpavs

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:52 PM

View Postvallygolf, on 16 November 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

So here is some empirical actual hard numbers from 3 rounds played by a 4 handicap (well 3.2) against an LPGA  player.  Not a top tier LPGA, but has been in contention in a few tournaments.  Both of us are very familiar with the course.  Played over the past week

Round 1.  We both played the tips  (7200 yards)  Pro: 70  Me 76  (I had an average day, She actually didnt play well.)
Round 2.  She played the tips I played the Reds (5900)  Pro 68  Me 71 (we both had average days, I actually had a good day putting)
Round 3  She played the red, I played the Tips  Pro 64 Me 78  (she played lights out, I had a below average day)

There is really no comparison to a 4 hcp and a pro LPGA golfer.  The consistency and ball striking is so far superior.  Length wasnt a huge issue as she was more accurate and consistent with her 4 iron than I am with my 9 iron.  I really dont see any scenario where I could compete with her.

Posted Image

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#2220 SurfDuffer

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Posted Yesterday, 07:27 AM

View Postdap, on 15 November 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity does anybody know for a fact how difficult a typical LPGA course is set up in terms of men's scratch rating and slope?

For the local course they play by me this would be the approximate ratings from where they play from:  69 / 119 and they play it between 6000 and 6200 yards depending on the set up of the day.  They play some holes back and some holes up for the tournament.  They are not playing the tips.  It is an easy par 71 unless it is windy.  Only 6,247 from the tips.  Even if you play this course all the way back on every hole it is not very difficult.  The key on this course is the wind.  If the wind is calm and particularly if there has been some recent rain a player who has some length and accuracy off the tee can tear this course up.  If the afternoon seabreeze is blowing 25+ and it hasn't rained in 2 weeks it is a completely different course.  Every year for this event the course conditions are different......some years it plays hard and some years it plays ridiculously easy.  

This year Anna Nordquist won at -17.  At the opposite end of the leaderboard was a player who missed the cut shooting 82 and 88 on the first two days.  (I will say this........this 6 handicapper would be very upset with himself if he shot 82-88 from the tips on this course unless the wind was howling both days and the course was baked.)  This year conditions were pretty much flawless.

I play in the pro-am every year so I am on the course the two days before and I usually attend a day or two of the actual tournament.  This year I attended the final round.  The course doesn't magically become harder and the pin placements aren't in crazy places where I haven't seen them plenty of times before.  Pretty standard stuff.  

Scorecard.  

Posted Image

Edited by SurfDuffer, Yesterday, 07:28 AM.

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