[italian71]

After re-watching it on tape - it looked suspicious. He takes 2 club lengths, then stands behind and to the side of his original 2 club lengths. After walking around for a minute, he re-does his 2 club lengths and now drops on the area where he was just standing - with the grass now being tamped down from his feet. He drops the ball there and gets a better lie than he would have had originally. I'm not sure if it's illegal but it is definitely shady.

[tbowles411]

He was able to select a drop area after taking an unplayable and a penalty. As long as it's no closer to the hole in the area where the ball went out in the hay, it's legal. It was covered very closely on camera with a rules official standing over him.

[slbpsi63]

You're right, Nike should have made him shoes that defy gravity so he could not step in the area at all. Seriously.... He did nothing wrong. He had what three feet of grass to walk on in the area? Nothing shady about it.

[Ray Jackson]

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

[tbowles411]

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 10:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

+1

[ggammell]

OK, I stood 15 feet from him when it happened. He hit his tee shot into a red staked lateral hazard. As such, he located the point where the ball crossed the hazard line and marked it. He measured 2 club lengths from that point, no closer to the hole. He didn't like it so he measured two club lengths at a slightly different angle to get a better stance. The second spot was actually farther away than the first.

As long as he's no closer to the hole, he could drop at any point two club length's from the point where it crossed the hazard line.

[Mike1]

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 10:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

Amen!

[czneko]

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

+2

[OldSkoolTexan]

ggammell, on Jul 5 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

OK, I stood 15 feet from him when it happened. He hit his tee shot into a red staked lateral hazard. As such, he located the point where the ball crossed the hazard line and marked it. He measured 2 club lengths from that point, no closer to the hole. He didn't like it so he measured two club lengths at a slightly different angle to get a better stance. The second spot was actually farther away than the first.As long as he's no closer to the hole, he could drop at any point two club length's from the point where it crossed the hazard line.

Exactly......  I was MORE worried about his splashing the bunker with his wedge before he hit from the bunker right in front of it yesterday.

[ctime]

czneko, on Jul 5 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

+2

+3

Let the rules officials do their jobs. Watch the tournament, enjoy it, and stay off the phones.

[bklynbenz]

oh great another one of these threads

[HeadonaStick]

OldSkoolTexan, on Jul 5 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

ggammell, on Jul 5 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

OK, I stood 15 feet from him when it happened. He hit his tee shot into a red staked lateral hazard. As such, he located the point where the ball crossed the hazard line and marked it. He measured 2 club lengths from that point, no closer to the hole. He didn't like it so he measured two club lengths at a slightly different angle to get a better stance. The second spot was actually farther away than the first.

As long as he's no closer to the hole, he could drop at any point two club length's from the point where it crossed the hazard line.

Exactly......  I was MORE worried about his splashing the bunker with his wedge before he hit from the bunker right in front of it yesterday.

Not against the rules anymore.

[Redman]

italian71, on Jul 5 2009, 09:50 PM, said:

After re-watching it on tape - it looked suspicious. He takes 2 club lengths, then stands behind and to the side of his original 2 club lengths. After walking around for a minute, he re-does his 2 club lengths and now drops on the area where he was just standing - with the grass now being tamped down from his feet. He drops the ball there and gets a better lie than he would have had originally. I'm not sure if it's illegal but it is definitely shady.

Good Lord, give me a break. Someone is always trying to say Tiger or Kenny Perry or someone cheated. There was a rules official there man. If it was illegal they wouldn't have let him do it.

[iamit]

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 09:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

Well since the "Craig Stadler improving his lie with a towel" incident there are many situations that rules officials have missed intrepretations that average Joe's have questioned. I see no reason why someone can't question, as it normally helps clarify rules for them and others. One thing I can say is that Tiger will use the rules to his utmost advantage to win (see moving rock at the Open incident), however I can't see Tiger ever conciously breaking a rule.

I felt sorry for the original poster as I new the rest of the posts would be out to unnecessarily crucify him.

[palmettoman]

IDK guys, I'm usually one of those that says to let the guys play and not get too caught up in rules watching on tourneys, but that situation with Tiger and Steve Williams needs to be looked at by the PGA rules officials. I recorded the tournament this afternoon and was looking at the telecast a few minutes ago. Williams was clearly standing in the same area Tiger subsequently used as a drop area. You can get a bearing on it by the brownish line of grass. Tiger obviously saw something with the grass that made him reposition his 2 club length relief.

[ctime]

palmettoman, on Jul 6 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

IDK guys, I'm usually one of those that says to let the guys play and not get too caught up in rules watching on tourneys, but that situation with Tiger and Steve Williams needs to be looked at by the PGA rules officials. I recorded the tournament this afternoon and was looking at the telecast a few minutes ago. Williams was clearly standing in the same area Tiger subsequently used as a drop area. You can get a bearing on it by the brownish line of grass. Tiger obviously saw something with the grass that made him reposition his 2 club length relief.

So I guess he was supposed to float so the grass was not disturbed by his feet. Did Tiger telepathically tell Steve to trampled down some grass so he had a good place to drop the ball?

New GolfWRX.com forum unofficial rule: Sit on your couch, have a beer, enjoy watching great golfers play, and Let the PGA tour rules officials do their job!

[Double Gee]

ctime, on Jul 6 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

palmettoman, on Jul 6 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

IDK guys, I'm usually one of those that says to let the guys play and not get too caught up in rules watching on tourneys, but that situation with Tiger and Steve Williams needs to be looked at by the PGA rules officials. I recorded the tournament this afternoon and was looking at the telecast a few minutes ago. Williams was clearly standing in the same area Tiger subsequently used as a drop area. You can get a bearing on it by the brownish line of grass. Tiger obviously saw something with the grass that made him reposition his 2 club length relief.

So I guess he was supposed to float so the grass was not disturbed by his feet. Did Tiger telepathically tell Steve to trampled down some grass so he had a good place to drop the ball?

New GolfWRX.com forum unofficial rule: Sit on your couch, have a beer, enjoy watching great golfers play, and Let the PGA tour rules officials do their job!

Yet another 'Tiger can do no wrong' !!

Look, you CANNOT clean the ground where you are about to drop a ball on to - in the same way you CANNOT walk over an area to deaden grass that you are about to drop a ball onto - IT IS IMPROVING A LIE!!!

RULES MEN ARE NOT THE ALL SEEING ORACLES - If Tiger walked over an area away from where he was dropping, then its no problem - BUT if he remeasures and THEN drops onto the same area he has walked - then that is at best gamesmanship and at worse - cheating !

[Double Gee]

italian71, on Jul 5 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

After re-watching it on tape - it looked suspicious. He takes 2 club lengths, then stands behind and to the side of his original 2 club lengths. After walking around for a minute, he re-does his 2 club lengths and now drops on the area where he was just standing - with the grass now being tamped down from his feet. He drops the ball there and gets a better lie than he would have had originally. I'm not sure if it's illegal but it is definitely shady.

+1

[DemolitionMan]

Only problem with all this second guessing is the drop that I saw didn't look to me to land in any area of grass that was trampled on. The ball hit fluffy grass, took a small bounce, and landed on more fluffy grass where he had a decent lie.....so what? Tiger was +5 on the 11th this week, what more does the field want? 10 strokes?

[golfasaurus]

Yup. Sit back and watch the game. Have some faith that these guys are honest and that's the way they want to win. Just amazing how such suspicion often appear when someone is leading or won the tournament.

[HeadonaStick]

iamit, on Jul 6 2009, 12:56 AM, said:

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 09:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

Well since the "Craig Stadler improving his lie with a towel" incident there are many situations that rules officials have missed intrepretations that average Joe's have questioned. I see no reason why someone can't question, as it normally helps clarify rules for them and others. One thing I can say is that Tiger will use the rules to his utmost advantage to win (see moving rock at the Open incident), however I can't see Tiger ever conciously breaking a rule.

I felt sorry for the original poster as I new the rest of the posts would be out to unnecessarily crucify him.

Stadler didn't have a rules official with him, so the rules official didn't miss anything. Besides, once a rules official okays it, it is a done deal as far as interpretation goes and a player can't later be penalized. Consequently, if the rules official was called, watched the drop and okayed it, it is a done deal.

[italian71]

I think some are missing my original point. He hit it in the hazard, I realize that. He gets 2 club lengths, I realize that too. But "normally" after you take your 2 club lengths, you stand behind or to the side of the 2 club lengths "area" to look for a good spot to drop. Drop it and the ball rolls into a good lie, great for you. But he did not do that. My point is then he takes two club lengths again backwards to where he was just walking around and then takes a drop, thereby giving himself a better lie. I didn't realize the rules allow you to "re-adjust" your 2 club lengths to drop where you were just standing. It may not be illegal, but it's shady.

[mkoreiwo]

Ray Jackson, on Jul 5 2009, 10:21 PM, said:

When these guys have rules officials with them (who are more experienced than we are at deciding what to do) why do we feel the need to second guess the decisions that are made during the round. It seems to me that it is becoming more common for people to call in or question events during a tournament that is televised. This is an honorable game and players call their penalties on themselves, we don't need to add to this......just my opinion.

Bravo!!!! Others have echoed your succinct comments, and add me to the list. I find these witch hunts tedious.

[130R]

It amazes me how many people in this forum seem to really resent Tiger's achievements, me Im just glad that I can watch aguably the greatest competitor to have ever played this great game.
Im pretty sure that Tiger and Stevie realize that they draw more media attention then every other player at the AT&T combined, but your entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. I really couldnt see any fault with it and personally would have gone with the first drop, none of the commentators eluded to anything sinister and Im sure they would have seen a lot more rulings than most of us.

[rxrdrummer]

italian71, on Jul 5 2009, 09:50 PM, said:

After re-watching it on tape - it looked suspicious. He takes 2 club lengths, then stands behind and to the side of his original 2 club lengths. After walking around for a minute, he re-does his 2 club lengths and now drops on the area where he was just standing - with the grass now being tamped down from his feet. He drops the ball there and gets a better lie than he would have had originally. I'm not sure if it's illegal but it is definitely shady.

It seems like there is a thread like this every week after Tiger plays. Sad...

[gmangolf]

So he took a drop and got a better lie than you think he should have gotten? So what?

The rules are the same for everyone. It is a player's responsibility to know the rules and use them to play fairly. Taking advantage of what the rules are not does not hinder the game, nor does it change the playing field. The rules are the same for everyone.

Its no different than a basketball game and a foul that gets uncalled. The defensive player doesn't throw his hand up and say ooooh I took advantage of the lack of a call there I really fouled the guy!

Come on. What Tiger did was within the rules. He didn't cheat, he wasn't being shady... Any athlete who hopes/wants to be competitive has a responsibility to give themselves the best opportunities to play their best within the rules.

[palmettoman]

DemolitionMan, on Jul 6 2009, 01:59 AM, said:

Only problem with all this second guessing is the drop that I saw didn't look to me to land in any area of grass that was trampled on. The ball hit fluffy grass, took a small bounce, and landed on more fluffy grass where he had a decent lie.....so what? Tiger was +5 on the 11th this week, what more does the field want? 10 strokes?

Didn't they all have to play the 11th hole? What does the fact that Tiger was +5 on 11 have to do with anything?

[palmettoman]

Tiger was a good 30-40 seconds behind Williams getting to the ball. Williams talked to the officials who were there and determined that Tiger's ball was unplayable. Williams moved to the area where the ball last crossed the hazard, sat the bag down, and stood there waiting for Tiger to arrive. During the next few minutes, Williams moved himself and the bag back several steps giving Tiger more room to drop the ball. Tiger marked his 2 club length relief in front of the area where Williams had previously been standing and continued looking around on the ground. He then looked at the area where Williams had been standing and repositioned his 2 club length relief. He then dropped in the area where Williams had been standing.

Alot of folks are seemingly getting into intent while discussing this. I am not. To do that would be impossible.

Tiger Woods has always been a great example of how one should play golf (his expletives excluded) and I would in no way ever question his honor in trying to do the right thing. He is far too talented to worry about a little bit of grass being around his ball when he dropped it. I am only saying what happened. The area around the relief position was very narrow with the bunker being so close to the hazard. To me it was sloppy of Williams to get so close to the area where Tiger was needing to take relief.

[robb01]

Perfectly legal, did get a nice lie out of it

[HipCheck]

slbpsi63, on Jul 5 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

You're right, Nike should have made him shoes that defy gravity so he could not step in the area at all.

Good news. They will. Just wait for The Hill Valley Invitational.

[Ronzo]

midasmulligan2000, on Jul 6 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Really ... I believe we need a seperate rule for Tiger. He should be required to carry a long piece of string that is precisely two driver lengths in his bag, along with some powedered chalk. Should he need to get relief, any spectators and any officials or caddies must stay at least 20 feet away from where the drop might take place. When Tiger arrives at the location, he should then tie one end of the string to a tee, that he places in the ground at the point where the ball crossed a hazard. He should then stretch the string to its full length, and, being careful to stay outside of the circumference, move in a circle described by the string, laying down a chalk line as he goes (but making certain the chalk never moves to a place any closer to the hole) ... describing the entire area in which it would be legal to drop. Then, making certain to stand outside of that marked area, he should stretch his hand over the area and take the drop.

And there would still be people who would resent that he would be the only pro to do it that way.

IMO, all of the people calling up the networks to call alleged rules violations on PGA or LPGA Tour competitors are doing so to inject themselves in the contest. Also IMO, the networks should have a policy of refusing to take such calls.

You may not have any idea just how difficult it is to become a USGA rules official. I know someone who is quite intelligent, but she has taken the test and failed at least five times. The Rules of Golf (and, especially, the Decisions addendum) are so convoluted that most people I know of wouldn't pass the exam.

[stage1350]

palmettoman, on Jul 6 2009, 09:05 AM, said:

Tiger was a good 30-40 seconds behind Williams getting to the ball. Williams talked to the officials who were there and determined that Tiger's ball was unplayable. Williams moved to the area where the ball last crossed the hazard, sat the bag down, and stood there waiting for Tiger to arrive. During the next few minutes, Williams moved himself and the bag back several steps giving Tiger more room to drop the ball. Tiger marked his 2 club length relief in front of the area where Williams had previously been standing and continued looking around on the ground. He then looked at the area where Williams had been standing and repositioned his 2 club length relief. He then dropped in the area where Williams had been standing.

Alot of folks are seemingly getting into intent while discussing this. I am not. To do that would be impossible.

Tiger Woods has always been a great example of how one should play golf (his expletives excluded) and I would in no way ever question his honor in trying to do the right thing. He is far too talented to worry about a little bit of grass being around his ball when he dropped it. I am only saying what happened. The area around the relief position was very narrow with the bunker being so close to the hazard. To me it was sloppy of Williams to get so close to the area where Tiger was needing to take relief.

Stevie was just looking for a place to put down his bib.

[Redman]

italian71, on Jul 6 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

I think some are missing my original point. He hit it in the hazard, I realize that. He gets 2 club lengths, I realize that too. But "normally" after you take your 2 club lengths, you stand behind or to the side of the 2 club lengths "area" to look for a good spot to drop. Drop it and the ball rolls into a good lie, great for you. But he did not do that. My point is then he takes two club lengths again backwards to where he was just walking around and then takes a drop, thereby giving himself a better lie. I didn't realize the rules allow you to "re-adjust" your 2 club lengths to drop where you were just standing. It may not be illegal, but it's shady.

Its not shady, there is nothing against what happened. They walked through that area to get to the ball like any and everyone else would have. I suppose when you hit a ball into the hazard you make sure to make a really big circle around the area you will be dropping in huh? What if Tiger would have been in a situation where he would have taken the point where the ball crossed the hazard and went back 15 or 20 yards after he and Stevie just walked through there? I guess he would have been cheating then as well. Someone is ALWAYS wanting to call cheat on another like they have just caught them. Good for you!

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Double Gee, on Jul 6 2009, 12:27 AM, said:

ctime, on Jul 6 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

palmettoman, on Jul 6 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

IDK guys, I'm usually one of those that says to let the guys play and not get too caught up in rules watching on tourneys, but that situation with Tiger and Steve Williams needs to be looked at by the PGA rules officials. I recorded the tournament this afternoon and was looking at the telecast a few minutes ago. Williams was clearly standing in the same area Tiger subsequently used as a drop area. You can get a bearing on it by the brownish line of grass. Tiger obviously saw something with the grass that made him reposition his 2 club length relief.

So I guess he was supposed to float so the grass was not disturbed by his feet. Did Tiger telepathically tell Steve to trampled down some grass so he had a good place to drop the ball?

New GolfWRX.com forum unofficial rule: Sit on your couch, have a beer, enjoy watching great golfers play, and Let the PGA tour rules officials do their job!

Yet another 'Tiger can do no wrong' !!

Look, you CANNOT clean the ground where you are about to drop a ball on to - in the same way you CANNOT walk over an area to deaden grass that you are about to drop a ball onto - IT IS IMPROVING A LIE!!!

RULES MEN ARE NOT THE ALL SEEING ORACLES - If Tiger walked over an area away from where he was dropping, then its no problem - BUT if he remeasures and THEN drops onto the same area he has walked - then that is at best gamesmanship and at worse - cheating !

Unless they changed the rules, I'm pretty sure you can remove loose impediments from the area you are about to drop into before dropping. I don't know if this is what you meant by "clean the ground".

Also I haven't seen what happened, but I don't think there is anything wrong with remeasuring your two club lengths. As far as if he trampled the grass and improved the area, I'm pretty sure almost all the guys out there use little tricks like this that the rules don't prevent, plus you are always going to try and drop into the best lie that you can.

[Redhill]

Stevie Williams aka "The enforcer" would never do anything in the way of gamesmanship to help out his boss.

Beware those who criticize "The Tiger" for the wrath of this board will come down on you.

[DCjuniorgolfer69]

italian71, on Jul 5 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

After re-watching it on tape - it looked suspicious. He takes 2 club lengths, then stands behind and to the side of his original 2 club lengths. After walking around for a minute, he re-does his 2 club lengths and now drops on the area where he was just standing - with the grass now being tamped down from his feet. He drops the ball there and gets a better lie than he would have had originally. I'm not sure if it's illegal but it is definitely shady.

fishing much? your retarded

[Double Gee]

TLUBulldogGolf, on Jul 6 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

Double Gee, on Jul 6 2009, 12:27 AM, said:

ctime, on Jul 6 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

palmettoman, on Jul 6 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

IDK guys, I'm usually one of those that says to let the guys play and not get too caught up in rules watching on tourneys, but that situation with Tiger and Steve Williams needs to be looked at by the PGA rules officials. I recorded the tournament this afternoon and was looking at the telecast a few minutes ago. Williams was clearly standing in the same area Tiger subsequently used as a drop area. You can get a bearing on it by the brownish line of grass. Tiger obviously saw something with the grass that made him reposition his 2 club length relief.

So I guess he was supposed to float so the grass was not disturbed by his feet. Did Tiger telepathically tell Steve to trampled down some grass so he had a good place to drop the ball?

New GolfWRX.com forum unofficial rule: Sit on your couch, have a beer, enjoy watching great golfers play, and Let the PGA tour rules officials do their job!

Yet another 'Tiger can do no wrong' !!

Look, you CANNOT clean the ground where you are about to drop a ball on to - in the same way you CANNOT walk over an area to deaden grass that you are about to drop a ball onto - IT IS IMPROVING A LIE!!!

RULES MEN ARE NOT THE ALL SEEING ORACLES - If Tiger walked over an area away from where he was dropping, then its no problem - BUT if he remeasures and THEN drops onto the same area he has walked - then that is at best gamesmanship and at worse - cheating !

Unless they changed the rules, I'm pretty sure you can remove loose impediments from the area you are about to drop into before dropping. I don't know if this is what you meant by "clean the ground".

you could not be anymore wrong!

See rule 13 (2) and look at the Decisions .... taking a drop you cannot touch a damn thing - EVEN THE PLUG MARK YOUR BALL LEFT IMPRINTED when you get a free drop for embedded ball!!

Sand, mud etc must be left alone.. this rule has, as far as i remember, been in force.

This is why the original poster has some essence of truth in his post - if the 'dropping' ground was altered or improved prior to a drop, then it IS a penalty.... and I dont really care that Rules guy was there they are not always right...