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This post is in reply to an old topic of Hogan's Angle. Einstein was quoted as saying "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds". Ben Hogan had a genius I.Q. He promised all of us golfers that everything the average golfer needed to break 80 was in his instructional book Five Lessons: The Modern Fundementals of Golf Despite 52 years since the initial publication of this book, golf handicaps have remained unchanged. Either Ben Hogan was the biggest liar in golf instruction and gave futile hope to the golfing masses or Ben Hogan told the absolute truth, and everything a golfer needed to know was in his book. So if Hogan was a genius, then it is going to take a genius to unlock the Hogan golfing code. Like Hogan, either Keern, author of Hogan's Angle is the biggest liar in golf instruction, or he is the genius that is born every generation. My vote is for the latter. Having personally met Keern, and received hands on instruction, he has unlocked the Hogan code. Granted, he is somewhat esoteric in his thinking and presentation. But, Einstein had Asperger's Syndrome and couldn't even find his way back home from his Princeton faculty office. Several years after publishing his Theory of Relativity, people thought he was looney. Hitting the ball along Hogan's Angle, I'm hitting the ball straight. It rockets in a straight line, at the apex of the swing the ball fades 2-3 yards to the right, the Hogan Fade. I would like to see Hogan's Angle revisted. The secret to improved golf is found along Hogan's Angle. Remember, Hogan said "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look" Watch where Hogan looks. Right down Hogan's Angle.
Alan Smith D.C.
This forum was created to help golfers of all skill levels to improve their game. As this forum is named, it is an Academy with Instructors that will come from different schools of thought. One is not necessarily better than the other nor will one method fit all. We will allow thoughtful and spirited discussions but, no personal attacks. This is an opportunity for everyone to bring their thoughts and issues to the range without fear of being ridiculed.
Hogan's Angle
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#1
Posted 26 June 2009 - 01:49 AM
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#2
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Posted 26 June 2009 - 03:10 AM
That's a wonderful story Alan.
Keern has some pretty good ideas. The problem he has is he can't demonstrate his principles. He needs someone like you who can hit Hogans fade on Hogans angle. Can I see your swing on video somewhere?
Keern has some pretty good ideas. The problem he has is he can't demonstrate his principles. He needs someone like you who can hit Hogans fade on Hogans angle. Can I see your swing on video somewhere?
#3
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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:02 AM
Are we talking about the plane shift that Hogan talks about in 5 Lessons? The pane of glass shifts shallower and to the right on the downswing. Most people think the swing plane is the plane established at address. I have been thinking alot about this lately. I know I have been coming to the ball too steep and finally after re reading 5 Lessons I am like wait a minute........downswing plane is different than the backswing plane. This will cause you to hit from the inside, which Hogan says is imperative, and more shallow, caused by the shift of the hips to the left, which he emphasizes over and over.
When doing this I tend to have one problem, I seem to drop my right shoulder so much that I tend to hit behind the ball especially with the longer irons and FW woods.
When doing this I tend to have one problem, I seem to drop my right shoulder so much that I tend to hit behind the ball especially with the longer irons and FW woods.
#4
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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:41 AM
#5
Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:51 AM
I am in this thread for fun . Looks like Hogan's angle author has stopped posting and maintaining his website .
Like the poster above said please show us some video's.
Like the poster above said please show us some video's.
#6
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Posted 26 June 2009 - 09:10 AM
He talked about his theory in the old 'hogan secrets' thread. When challenged about his conclusions he failed to back them up with sufficient evidence. He all seemed like alot of bs really. He was a really nice guy though and we talked about his theory a bit in PM. Even there i failed to see where how he got to his conclusion.
He may have been viewed more seriously if he presented his case a bit better.
He may have been viewed more seriously if he presented his case a bit better.
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Posted 26 June 2009 - 10:03 AM
He's right about the angle. It's more of an illusion though. It's a feel. A trick on the eyes. Proprioception. I think I remember reading Hogan "may have" said that you need to hit the inside part of the sugar cube. Now that's not exactly what happens, but it is a great trick.
The execution on the young man's part is not done very well..........at all...............as far as Hogan fundamentals go.
Just a piece of the puzzle. I'll bet he gets decent results from those dynamics...................just not very consistently.
He doesn't get there the way Hogan did. But the angle is worth understanding. IMOP, he has a long way to go to fully understand that motion.
The execution on the young man's part is not done very well..........at all...............as far as Hogan fundamentals go.
Just a piece of the puzzle. I'll bet he gets decent results from those dynamics...................just not very consistently.
He doesn't get there the way Hogan did. But the angle is worth understanding. IMOP, he has a long way to go to fully understand that motion.
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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:28 AM
fred_wade, on Jun 26 2009, 11:53 PM, said:
This board will never know what he thought. Looks like he was run off the board by some tired old pros and struggling hacks in the closed Hogan thread.
Fred, you have no cred.
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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:41 AM
That's Fred from 310 Center Cut, "Fore18" Mystery Drive, Beaumont, Texas. Thanks for the kind words on YouTube.
#10
Posted 27 June 2009 - 04:20 AM
Snake oil.
#11
Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:11 AM
The videos of the author's swing taint anything that might be true. Watching him sway around makes me skeptical.
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Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:38 AM
The one thing he has that is spot on is that the secret is not about a part of the swing. It has to relate to the target. Mr. Hogan was a player.....not a swinger. He didn't swing low left, or flatten his plane coming down, or bend his right wrist back to start the downswing. They were all resultant of his intention to hit the ball where/how he wanted to. You can't look at a result and call it an intentional secret.
Keern has that part right....but his angle can't be proven, unless he can use it to prove his theory by having that 'angle' produce the same geometry..or at least on the same planet of a golf swing.
Keern has that part right....but his angle can't be proven, unless he can use it to prove his theory by having that 'angle' produce the same geometry..or at least on the same planet of a golf swing.
#13
Posted 27 June 2009 - 07:09 PM
Thanks guys for replying to my post. This post could end up unlocking the mystery of the swing if we all contribute our knowledge, and experience. I will get a video so you can see how I've been using Hogan's angle. In the meantime, check out the following two videos:
Hogan's Angle is described, covertly, several times in Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. Think of it as unlocking the Da Vinci Code of the golf swing. Bear with me. First reference is on page 42 and the diagram at the bottom. Hogan's Angle is 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan says, "When a player employs this stance, (left foot angled out at 22 degrees) his body will be in a much better position when the club is coming into the ball on the downswing to go in the direction in which his left foot is going. My first indication that this passage may hold a clue is that he is talking about the downswing, (which is covered in Lesson 4) in Lesson 2, Stance and Posture. Look where his left foot is going, 22 degrees. So he is telling us, on the downswing as the club is coming into the ball, the body goes in the direction of the left foot, 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan had a genius IQ. What is more genius than stating the secret out in the open? Much like a magician making a coin disappear before your eyes. (Want to see cool coin trick)
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Look at the middle drawing on the bottom of page 97, as he makes a throw to first base. He looks down Hogan's Angle, even though the ball is being released down the target line.
Now observe, in the following two video clips where Hogan looks as he starts his downswing. He is "looking ahead" at where he wants the action of the downswing to go. He's not looking down the target line. The energy is being directed down Hogan's Angle. Not being directed down the target line. When you skip a rock across a lake, the throwing motion is out 22 degrees, not directly down the line. If you directed your rock throwing motion down the target line, by the time the rock released it would sail way left.
The following is a grainy video. But if you keep repeating the video and pay attention when it gets to 03-04 seconds, you'll see the eye movement. Same on the second video sequence
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eNlUKLPFwQE
Time 03 seconds/ of 11 seconds of video
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Time 5:37 seconds /of 10:45 seconds of video
I bought the book Ben Hogan's Magical Device On page 171, there is a photo of Hogan and Bob Hope. Hogan is pointing his finger down Hogan's Angle. (I don't think I break any copyright laws by posting the photo, since this is a discussion group used for educational purposes only.) If you guys want I'll try to scan it on Monday.
I have a lot more analysis to share, but I'd like your input up too this point in the discussion.
Alan Smith D.C.
Hogan's Angle is described, covertly, several times in Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. Think of it as unlocking the Da Vinci Code of the golf swing. Bear with me. First reference is on page 42 and the diagram at the bottom. Hogan's Angle is 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan says, "When a player employs this stance, (left foot angled out at 22 degrees) his body will be in a much better position when the club is coming into the ball on the downswing to go in the direction in which his left foot is going. My first indication that this passage may hold a clue is that he is talking about the downswing, (which is covered in Lesson 4) in Lesson 2, Stance and Posture. Look where his left foot is going, 22 degrees. So he is telling us, on the downswing as the club is coming into the ball, the body goes in the direction of the left foot, 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan had a genius IQ. What is more genius than stating the secret out in the open? Much like a magician making a coin disappear before your eyes. (Want to see cool coin trick)
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Look at the middle drawing on the bottom of page 97, as he makes a throw to first base. He looks down Hogan's Angle, even though the ball is being released down the target line.
Now observe, in the following two video clips where Hogan looks as he starts his downswing. He is "looking ahead" at where he wants the action of the downswing to go. He's not looking down the target line. The energy is being directed down Hogan's Angle. Not being directed down the target line. When you skip a rock across a lake, the throwing motion is out 22 degrees, not directly down the line. If you directed your rock throwing motion down the target line, by the time the rock released it would sail way left.
The following is a grainy video. But if you keep repeating the video and pay attention when it gets to 03-04 seconds, you'll see the eye movement. Same on the second video sequence
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eNlUKLPFwQE
Time 03 seconds/ of 11 seconds of video
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Time 5:37 seconds /of 10:45 seconds of video
I bought the book Ben Hogan's Magical Device On page 171, there is a photo of Hogan and Bob Hope. Hogan is pointing his finger down Hogan's Angle. (I don't think I break any copyright laws by posting the photo, since this is a discussion group used for educational purposes only.) If you guys want I'll try to scan it on Monday.
I have a lot more analysis to share, but I'd like your input up too this point in the discussion.
Alan Smith D.C.
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Posted 27 June 2009 - 07:54 PM
#15
Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:57 PM
alansmithdc, on Jun 27 2009, 08:09 PM, said:
Thanks guys for replying to my post. This post could end up unlocking the mystery of the swing if we all contribute our knowledge, and experience. I will get a video so you can see how I've been using Hogan's angle. In the meantime, check out the following two videos:
Hogan's Angle is described, covertly, several times in Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. Think of it as unlocking the Da Vinci Code of the golf swing. Bear with me. First reference is on page 42 and the diagram at the bottom. Hogan's Angle is 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan says, "When a player employs this stance, (left foot angled out at 22 degrees) his body will be in a much better position when the club is coming into the ball on the downswing to go in the direction in which his left foot is going. My first indication that this passage may hold a clue is that he is talking about the downswing, (which is covered in Lesson 4) in Lesson 2, Stance and Posture. Look where his left foot is going, 22 degrees. So he is telling us, on the downswing as the club is coming into the ball, the body goes in the direction of the left foot, 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan had a genius IQ. What is more genius than stating the secret out in the open? Much like a magician making a coin disappear before your eyes. (Want to see cool coin trick)
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Look at the middle drawing on the bottom of page 97, as he makes a throw to first base. He looks down Hogan's Angle, even though the ball is being released down the target line.
Now observe, in the following two video clips where Hogan looks as he starts his downswing. He is "looking ahead" at where he wants the action of the downswing to go. He's not looking down the target line. The energy is being directed down Hogan's Angle. Not being directed down the target line. When you skip a rock across a lake, the throwing motion is out 22 degrees, not directly down the line. If you directed your rock throwing motion down the target line, by the time the rock released it would sail way left.
The following is a grainy video. But if you keep repeating the video and pay attention when it gets to 03-04 seconds, you'll see the eye movement. Same on the second video sequence
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eNlUKLPFwQE
Time 03 seconds/ of 11 seconds of video
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Time 5:37 seconds /of 10:45 seconds of video
I bought the book Ben Hogan's Magical Device On page 171, there is a photo of Hogan and Bob Hope. Hogan is pointing his finger down Hogan's Angle. (I don't think I break any copyright laws by posting the photo, since this is a discussion group used for educational purposes only.) If you guys want I'll try to scan it on Monday.
I have a lot more analysis to share, but I'd like your input up too this point in the discussion.
Alan Smith D.C.
Hogan's Angle is described, covertly, several times in Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. Think of it as unlocking the Da Vinci Code of the golf swing. Bear with me. First reference is on page 42 and the diagram at the bottom. Hogan's Angle is 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan says, "When a player employs this stance, (left foot angled out at 22 degrees) his body will be in a much better position when the club is coming into the ball on the downswing to go in the direction in which his left foot is going. My first indication that this passage may hold a clue is that he is talking about the downswing, (which is covered in Lesson 4) in Lesson 2, Stance and Posture. Look where his left foot is going, 22 degrees. So he is telling us, on the downswing as the club is coming into the ball, the body goes in the direction of the left foot, 22 degrees left of perpendicular. Hogan had a genius IQ. What is more genius than stating the secret out in the open? Much like a magician making a coin disappear before your eyes. (Want to see cool coin trick)
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Look at the middle drawing on the bottom of page 97, as he makes a throw to first base. He looks down Hogan's Angle, even though the ball is being released down the target line.
Now observe, in the following two video clips where Hogan looks as he starts his downswing. He is "looking ahead" at where he wants the action of the downswing to go. He's not looking down the target line. The energy is being directed down Hogan's Angle. Not being directed down the target line. When you skip a rock across a lake, the throwing motion is out 22 degrees, not directly down the line. If you directed your rock throwing motion down the target line, by the time the rock released it would sail way left.
The following is a grainy video. But if you keep repeating the video and pay attention when it gets to 03-04 seconds, you'll see the eye movement. Same on the second video sequence
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eNlUKLPFwQE
Time 03 seconds/ of 11 seconds of video
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Time 5:37 seconds /of 10:45 seconds of video
I bought the book Ben Hogan's Magical Device On page 171, there is a photo of Hogan and Bob Hope. Hogan is pointing his finger down Hogan's Angle. (I don't think I break any copyright laws by posting the photo, since this is a discussion group used for educational purposes only.) If you guys want I'll try to scan it on Monday.
I have a lot more analysis to share, but I'd like your input up too this point in the discussion.
Alan Smith D.C.
this has been known for ages and pointed out that hogan flipped his eyeline up the delivery line. even this is conjecture , may be just refocusing his eyes
#16
Posted 28 June 2009 - 08:29 AM
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Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:04 AM
eightiron, on Jun 28 2009, 11:29 PM, said:
Good find! Hogans angle. They say Mac was pretty good right and left handed too.
#18
Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:15 AM
martinez, on Jun 28 2009, 09:04 AM, said:
eightiron, on Jun 28 2009, 11:29 PM, said:
Good find! Hogans angle. They say Mac was pretty good right and left handed too.
Good point , better off getting some lessons from Mac
What was the angle again?
#19
Posted 28 June 2009 - 05:00 PM
Have you guys heard of Bruce Lee's 1 " punch?
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NS6aMdskKSo
Imagine how much more powerful the impact at the ball would be if we could explode at the ball with the force and fury of Bruce Lee's 1" punch. I believe Hogan did the 1" inch punch at the ball. I also believe in Five Lesson's Hogan showed us how to do it. (I learned from the head of the Penchat-Silat empire who trained with Bruce Lee how to do the 1" punch)
Can anyone figure out how it's done? I'll give the answer.
Alan
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NS6aMdskKSo
Imagine how much more powerful the impact at the ball would be if we could explode at the ball with the force and fury of Bruce Lee's 1" punch. I believe Hogan did the 1" inch punch at the ball. I also believe in Five Lesson's Hogan showed us how to do it. (I learned from the head of the Penchat-Silat empire who trained with Bruce Lee how to do the 1" punch)
Can anyone figure out how it's done? I'll give the answer.
Alan
#20
Posted 28 June 2009 - 05:13 PM
Hi Martinez:
Thanks for your share. This discussion group is great. Firstly, with respect to Keern's swing. He has advanced beyond the swing of Five Lesson's and is studying the hip action of Hogan's swing post 1960. However, I'm content to learn the Five Lesson's swing. I'm not a pro golfer. Don't have the physical talent to be a pro golfer. My goal is what Hogan promised all of us average golfers, On page 16-17 Hogan writes "THE AVERAGE GOLFER IS ENTIRELY CAPABLE OF BUILDING A REPEATING SWING AND BREAKING 80, if he learns to perform a small number of correct movements and conversely, it follows, eliminates a lot of movements which tend to keep the swing from repeating. (I had time from the busy clinic to play Oaknoll golf course, in Salem, Oregon. Not the toughest course, but I shot a 37 on the back 9. Double bogeyed the last hole. I know. Sounds like a bad beat story in poker) I normally would be thrilled to shoot 42. My normal scores would be around 45 to 47 for nine.
I've also had the chance the visit your neck of the woods. Spent three days on Frazier Island. Great time.
Alan
Thanks for your share. This discussion group is great. Firstly, with respect to Keern's swing. He has advanced beyond the swing of Five Lesson's and is studying the hip action of Hogan's swing post 1960. However, I'm content to learn the Five Lesson's swing. I'm not a pro golfer. Don't have the physical talent to be a pro golfer. My goal is what Hogan promised all of us average golfers, On page 16-17 Hogan writes "THE AVERAGE GOLFER IS ENTIRELY CAPABLE OF BUILDING A REPEATING SWING AND BREAKING 80, if he learns to perform a small number of correct movements and conversely, it follows, eliminates a lot of movements which tend to keep the swing from repeating. (I had time from the busy clinic to play Oaknoll golf course, in Salem, Oregon. Not the toughest course, but I shot a 37 on the back 9. Double bogeyed the last hole. I know. Sounds like a bad beat story in poker) I normally would be thrilled to shoot 42. My normal scores would be around 45 to 47 for nine.
I've also had the chance the visit your neck of the woods. Spent three days on Frazier Island. Great time.
Alan
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Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:27 PM
fred_wade, on Jun 29 2009, 09:47 AM, said:
keep up the good work Alan. Like i said, keern got a raw deal on this board from struggling old pros and amateur hacks who've been pumping out the same old crappola (pros) or asking the same stupid questions (amateurs) OVER AND OVER AGAIN with nothing to show for it. keern has a goofy a** looking swing, but maybe he's onto something. i personally like the kid for hanging in there and sticking to plan with all the mud slung at him.
The one struggling is you Blake....struggling to refrain from outing yourself with each new persona LOL.
Alan, I really think what Keern is talking about has merit. I told him so in a reply to his PM to me. I told him all the animosity he was receiving is from people, who don't really know what Hogan did, trying to commercialize their ideas under his name as their banner.
The fact is that even with approval by the Hogan estate...you still couldn't get any of this s*** to have 'his' stamp of approval. Notice I didn't capitalize the 'H'....he's not God....but I think he's sittin' pretty close by right now heehee.
#22
Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:42 PM
HI Fred:
I agree with you about Keern. Look at all the B.S. golf instruction that is out there. I think I have read every book, seen most every video, and taken countless lessons from teaching pro's. The fact of the matter is that my handicap/scoring remained the same. I knew it would take a whole new outlook. I have been studying Five Lesson's for years. I knew the secret was buried in there somewhere. When I touched base with Keern, I knew he was on too something. Everything he says can be seen in Five Lessons. As for his taking mud slinging, it is easy to wash if off if the truth is on your side. People will dismiss those things that they don't understand. It is human nature. I've talked with Keern enough to know that I don't think he takes any of the mudslinging to heart. He wants to get the knowledge out there. As for his profiting on his insights. I say go for it. It is the capitalist way. Create a product, and accept the demand and profit. Just look at all the big name multi million dollar teaching pro's, Haney, Leadbetter, Harmon, The Golf Magazine Top 100 instructors. Fact is they have done Jack Diddly for over 50 years to help the average joe out. I suscribe to Hogansangle.com Why not? The subject matter is far more applicable than 99.99999% of the teaching material, teaching aids, $479 Taylormade R9 adjustable drivers and the whole other load of crude that is being peddled out there in the multi-billion dollar golf trade.
The way life works, if you have genisus who see a whole new way of the world. (we all know Gallieo's story), often they are not the best teachers. I don't think I have come up with an original thought to date. However, I do have the ability to recognize genius. I can, once I understand what the geniius has discovered, to try to put it in simple terms. I guess that is my gift that I've been handed
I say we should all try to understand Keern's insight, before we all summarily dismiss it as rubbish. Those people who are quick to judge, a few years back would have nevered played any of the Hawaiian golf courses. Why? Because they wouldn't want to fall off the end of the earth.
Responding to the post by Martinez that the angle can't be proven, all one has to do is look at page 19 of Five Lessons. There is Hogan's right arm at 22 degrees, parallel to Hogan's angle. Just pose yourself exactly as in the picture, with the right toe, right arm. left arm, wrist, the whole thing. Now just slowly swing a foot in front and a foot behind, getting into the impact position. Move the hands along the 22 degree angle. Stop and compare. The positions are identical to Hogan's. Hogan even told us to do this motion in a drill, found on the bottom of page 81 and continuing on 82.
Keern is not making anything up. He's not telling us to use certain body movements to create a swing. He is telling us, "See Hogan's Angle" then make a coordinated body-arm-hand swing along that Angle. Just like Hogan said, "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look". There are a lot of youtube posts from people explaining Hogan's swing. One in particular Sevam1 from Canada, has a large following. The problem is that very little of what he says, Hogan said. Hogan never said rotate your right foot into external rotation, while it is planted on the ground. Quite the contrary. Look at the shading on page 72. The third sentence in the text says, "Each drawing emphasizes the parts of the body which are actively functioning at that particular stage of the backswing." Show me where in the sequence on the bottom of page 72, at address and on, where the right shoe/left foot is being emphasized. It's not. On page 73, the drawing when his hands are above hip level, the left foot is beginning to be blackened, the right foot isn't blackened until the last illustration on the right, the top of the backswing. Then the shoes are blacker than black, they are even showing a "Marine Spit Shine" black. Look at the inside muscles from the thighs down, and the forearms, all blackened. Either Hogan was full of b.s. or he is showing us how it is too feel at certain stages. Up to now, there had been no model. A model takes a series of facts, theories and observations, and attempts to put them into a working, cohesive outline, which then can be utilized to real world applications. Hogan's Angle provides that model.
I agree with you about Keern. Look at all the B.S. golf instruction that is out there. I think I have read every book, seen most every video, and taken countless lessons from teaching pro's. The fact of the matter is that my handicap/scoring remained the same. I knew it would take a whole new outlook. I have been studying Five Lesson's for years. I knew the secret was buried in there somewhere. When I touched base with Keern, I knew he was on too something. Everything he says can be seen in Five Lessons. As for his taking mud slinging, it is easy to wash if off if the truth is on your side. People will dismiss those things that they don't understand. It is human nature. I've talked with Keern enough to know that I don't think he takes any of the mudslinging to heart. He wants to get the knowledge out there. As for his profiting on his insights. I say go for it. It is the capitalist way. Create a product, and accept the demand and profit. Just look at all the big name multi million dollar teaching pro's, Haney, Leadbetter, Harmon, The Golf Magazine Top 100 instructors. Fact is they have done Jack Diddly for over 50 years to help the average joe out. I suscribe to Hogansangle.com Why not? The subject matter is far more applicable than 99.99999% of the teaching material, teaching aids, $479 Taylormade R9 adjustable drivers and the whole other load of crude that is being peddled out there in the multi-billion dollar golf trade.
The way life works, if you have genisus who see a whole new way of the world. (we all know Gallieo's story), often they are not the best teachers. I don't think I have come up with an original thought to date. However, I do have the ability to recognize genius. I can, once I understand what the geniius has discovered, to try to put it in simple terms. I guess that is my gift that I've been handed
I say we should all try to understand Keern's insight, before we all summarily dismiss it as rubbish. Those people who are quick to judge, a few years back would have nevered played any of the Hawaiian golf courses. Why? Because they wouldn't want to fall off the end of the earth.
Responding to the post by Martinez that the angle can't be proven, all one has to do is look at page 19 of Five Lessons. There is Hogan's right arm at 22 degrees, parallel to Hogan's angle. Just pose yourself exactly as in the picture, with the right toe, right arm. left arm, wrist, the whole thing. Now just slowly swing a foot in front and a foot behind, getting into the impact position. Move the hands along the 22 degree angle. Stop and compare. The positions are identical to Hogan's. Hogan even told us to do this motion in a drill, found on the bottom of page 81 and continuing on 82.
Keern is not making anything up. He's not telling us to use certain body movements to create a swing. He is telling us, "See Hogan's Angle" then make a coordinated body-arm-hand swing along that Angle. Just like Hogan said, "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look". There are a lot of youtube posts from people explaining Hogan's swing. One in particular Sevam1 from Canada, has a large following. The problem is that very little of what he says, Hogan said. Hogan never said rotate your right foot into external rotation, while it is planted on the ground. Quite the contrary. Look at the shading on page 72. The third sentence in the text says, "Each drawing emphasizes the parts of the body which are actively functioning at that particular stage of the backswing." Show me where in the sequence on the bottom of page 72, at address and on, where the right shoe/left foot is being emphasized. It's not. On page 73, the drawing when his hands are above hip level, the left foot is beginning to be blackened, the right foot isn't blackened until the last illustration on the right, the top of the backswing. Then the shoes are blacker than black, they are even showing a "Marine Spit Shine" black. Look at the inside muscles from the thighs down, and the forearms, all blackened. Either Hogan was full of b.s. or he is showing us how it is too feel at certain stages. Up to now, there had been no model. A model takes a series of facts, theories and observations, and attempts to put them into a working, cohesive outline, which then can be utilized to real world applications. Hogan's Angle provides that model.
#23
Posted 28 June 2009 - 10:12 PM
So your belief is that Keern is the "genius" who uncovered the secret of Hogan's book? I have a few problems with your statements. Firstly, while I do believe Hogan was extremely intelligent, wouldn't his intelligence enable him to write a book which effectively communicated his ideas to the masses, which was his intention? I don't think he was attempting to hide anything in his book. Secondly, you are rather vague regarding the components of Keern's system that separate him from most golf instructors. It seems to me that this is most likely because his ideas are not revolutionary. Keern's swing is a long way off from Hogan's, and it seems like he lacks the proper impact alignments. Someone in his situation should try to master the flat left wrist, not uncover the secret of the game's greatest ball striker. If he cannot apply his own ideas to develop an efficient golf swing, how is he going to help other golfers? I'd like to see your swing Alan, and what he has done for you.
Keern's plane angle doesn't look anything like Hogan's. How could they be approaching the golf ball from the same angle?
Keern's plane angle doesn't look anything like Hogan's. How could they be approaching the golf ball from the same angle?
#24
Posted 28 June 2009 - 10:36 PM
alansmithdc, on Jun 28 2009, 09:42 PM, said:
HI Fred:
I agree with you about Keern. Look at all the B.S. golf instruction that is out there. I think I have read every book, seen most every video, and taken countless lessons from teaching pro's. The fact of the matter is that my handicap/scoring remained the same. I knew it would take a whole new outlook. I have been studying Five Lesson's for years. I knew the secret was buried in there somewhere. When I touched base with Keern, I knew he was on too something. Everything he says can be seen in Five Lessons. As for his taking mud slinging, it is easy to wash if off if the truth is on your side. People will dismiss those things that they don't understand. It is human nature. I've talked with Keern enough to know that I don't think he takes any of the mudslinging to heart. He wants to get the knowledge out there. As for his profiting on his insights. I say go for it. It is the capitalist way. Create a product, and accept the demand and profit. Just look at all the big name multi million dollar teaching pro's, Haney, Leadbetter, Harmon, The Golf Magazine Top 100 instructors. Fact is they have done Jack Diddly for over 50 years to help the average joe out. I suscribe to Hogansangle.com Why not? The subject matter is far more applicable than 99.99999% of the teaching material, teaching aids, $479 Taylormade R9 adjustable drivers and the whole other load of crude that is being peddled out there in the multi-billion dollar golf trade.
The way life works, if you have genisus who see a whole new way of the world. (we all know Gallieo's story), often they are not the best teachers. I don't think I have come up with an original thought to date. However, I do have the ability to recognize genius. I can, once I understand what the geniius has discovered, to try to put it in simple terms. I guess that is my gift that I've been handed
I say we should all try to understand Keern's insight, before we all summarily dismiss it as rubbish. Those people who are quick to judge, a few years back would have nevered played any of the Hawaiian golf courses. Why? Because they wouldn't want to fall off the end of the earth.
Responding to the post by Martinez that the angle can't be proven, all one has to do is look at page 19 of Five Lessons. There is Hogan's right arm at 22 degrees, parallel to Hogan's angle. Just pose yourself exactly as in the picture, with the right toe, right arm. left arm, wrist, the whole thing. Now just slowly swing a foot in front and a foot behind, getting into the impact position. Move the hands along the 22 degree angle. Stop and compare. The positions are identical to Hogan's. Hogan even told us to do this motion in a drill, found on the bottom of page 81 and continuing on 82.
Keern is not making anything up. He's not telling us to use certain body movements to create a swing. He is telling us, "See Hogan's Angle" then make a coordinated body-arm-hand swing along that Angle. Just like Hogan said, "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look". There are a lot of youtube posts from people explaining Hogan's swing. One in particular Sevam1 from Canada, has a large following. The problem is that very little of what he says, Hogan said. Hogan never said rotate your right foot into external rotation, while it is planted on the ground. Quite the contrary. Look at the shading on page 72. The third sentence in the text says, "Each drawing emphasizes the parts of the body which are actively functioning at that particular stage of the backswing." Show me where in the sequence on the bottom of page 72, at address and on, where the right shoe/left foot is being emphasized. It's not. On page 73, the drawing when his hands are above hip level, the left foot is beginning to be blackened, the right foot isn't blackened until the last illustration on the right, the top of the backswing. Then the shoes are blacker than black, they are even showing a "Marine Spit Shine" black. Look at the inside muscles from the thighs down, and the forearms, all blackened. Either Hogan was full of b.s. or he is showing us how it is too feel at certain stages. Up to now, there had been no model. A model takes a series of facts, theories and observations, and attempts to put them into a working, cohesive outline, which then can be utilized to real world applications. Hogan's Angle provides that model.
I agree with you about Keern. Look at all the B.S. golf instruction that is out there. I think I have read every book, seen most every video, and taken countless lessons from teaching pro's. The fact of the matter is that my handicap/scoring remained the same. I knew it would take a whole new outlook. I have been studying Five Lesson's for years. I knew the secret was buried in there somewhere. When I touched base with Keern, I knew he was on too something. Everything he says can be seen in Five Lessons. As for his taking mud slinging, it is easy to wash if off if the truth is on your side. People will dismiss those things that they don't understand. It is human nature. I've talked with Keern enough to know that I don't think he takes any of the mudslinging to heart. He wants to get the knowledge out there. As for his profiting on his insights. I say go for it. It is the capitalist way. Create a product, and accept the demand and profit. Just look at all the big name multi million dollar teaching pro's, Haney, Leadbetter, Harmon, The Golf Magazine Top 100 instructors. Fact is they have done Jack Diddly for over 50 years to help the average joe out. I suscribe to Hogansangle.com Why not? The subject matter is far more applicable than 99.99999% of the teaching material, teaching aids, $479 Taylormade R9 adjustable drivers and the whole other load of crude that is being peddled out there in the multi-billion dollar golf trade.
The way life works, if you have genisus who see a whole new way of the world. (we all know Gallieo's story), often they are not the best teachers. I don't think I have come up with an original thought to date. However, I do have the ability to recognize genius. I can, once I understand what the geniius has discovered, to try to put it in simple terms. I guess that is my gift that I've been handed
I say we should all try to understand Keern's insight, before we all summarily dismiss it as rubbish. Those people who are quick to judge, a few years back would have nevered played any of the Hawaiian golf courses. Why? Because they wouldn't want to fall off the end of the earth.
Responding to the post by Martinez that the angle can't be proven, all one has to do is look at page 19 of Five Lessons. There is Hogan's right arm at 22 degrees, parallel to Hogan's angle. Just pose yourself exactly as in the picture, with the right toe, right arm. left arm, wrist, the whole thing. Now just slowly swing a foot in front and a foot behind, getting into the impact position. Move the hands along the 22 degree angle. Stop and compare. The positions are identical to Hogan's. Hogan even told us to do this motion in a drill, found on the bottom of page 81 and continuing on 82.
Keern is not making anything up. He's not telling us to use certain body movements to create a swing. He is telling us, "See Hogan's Angle" then make a coordinated body-arm-hand swing along that Angle. Just like Hogan said, "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look". There are a lot of youtube posts from people explaining Hogan's swing. One in particular Sevam1 from Canada, has a large following. The problem is that very little of what he says, Hogan said. Hogan never said rotate your right foot into external rotation, while it is planted on the ground. Quite the contrary. Look at the shading on page 72. The third sentence in the text says, "Each drawing emphasizes the parts of the body which are actively functioning at that particular stage of the backswing." Show me where in the sequence on the bottom of page 72, at address and on, where the right shoe/left foot is being emphasized. It's not. On page 73, the drawing when his hands are above hip level, the left foot is beginning to be blackened, the right foot isn't blackened until the last illustration on the right, the top of the backswing. Then the shoes are blacker than black, they are even showing a "Marine Spit Shine" black. Look at the inside muscles from the thighs down, and the forearms, all blackened. Either Hogan was full of b.s. or he is showing us how it is too feel at certain stages. Up to now, there had been no model. A model takes a series of facts, theories and observations, and attempts to put them into a working, cohesive outline, which then can be utilized to real world applications. Hogan's Angle provides that model.
Nice work , made up stuff as time went by , the sheep followed, Cha-Ching Cha -Ching
At least this one is about angles/circles ( I'm assuming) , so drop some visual drawings on how it should look from different views
#25
Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:28 PM
Hi Tiltswing:
If that is your swing on the bottom link, from the Mac O'Grady school, then nice swing. I would challenge you that you. in fact, are swinging down the line as if throwing to first base. The force of your swing is directed along Hogan's line, not the target line. I'm not sure what you mean about working on a flat left wrist. No where in Five Lessons does Hogan talk about a flat left wrist. He does talk about at impact, a mildly supinating left wrist, with the wrist bones raised closer to the target than any other part. No flatness of left wrist that I can see or find in the text. At the top of your swing, a line drawn along the angle of your left foot, if you went a little more in your backswing, through your hands at the top of your swing, would line up, just like Hogan's does if you draw that line in his book. I would say you are already a Hogan's Angle student.
Alan Smith D.C.
If that is your swing on the bottom link, from the Mac O'Grady school, then nice swing. I would challenge you that you. in fact, are swinging down the line as if throwing to first base. The force of your swing is directed along Hogan's line, not the target line. I'm not sure what you mean about working on a flat left wrist. No where in Five Lessons does Hogan talk about a flat left wrist. He does talk about at impact, a mildly supinating left wrist, with the wrist bones raised closer to the target than any other part. No flatness of left wrist that I can see or find in the text. At the top of your swing, a line drawn along the angle of your left foot, if you went a little more in your backswing, through your hands at the top of your swing, would line up, just like Hogan's does if you draw that line in his book. I would say you are already a Hogan's Angle student.
Alan Smith D.C.
#26
Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:33 PM
Hey Tiltswing: My bad. I rechecked your swing, and compensating for video camera placement, I would say you are on Hogan's Angle at the top of your swing.
Alan Smith D.C.
Alan Smith D.C.
#27
Posted 30 June 2009 - 09:33 PM
All great ball strikers impact the ball with a flat left wrist. Here are some examples:
Keern's wrist is bent at impact, like this:
It would probably be better if you were to offer a more detailed explanation of Hogan's angle. However, looking at Keern's swing, he does not swing down on a plane angle resembling Hogan and neither do I. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible that either Keern or I are on "Hogan's angle."
Keern's wrist is bent at impact, like this:
It would probably be better if you were to offer a more detailed explanation of Hogan's angle. However, looking at Keern's swing, he does not swing down on a plane angle resembling Hogan and neither do I. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible that either Keern or I are on "Hogan's angle."
#28
Posted 30 June 2009 - 10:34 PM
Nice to hear your theory of "Hogan's angle" but it does sound like a hitter's arm movement to the ball. I know because i've been there.
Even though sevam1 has got alot of critics, I appreciate the fact that he's shown his swing in many different angles and it is a great swing.
Keern's vids didn't do this theory much service, so it'd be great if you, Alansmithdc post yours.
btw where was this quote taken from ? "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look". I only recall him saying something like this about his secret.
thanks!
Even though sevam1 has got alot of critics, I appreciate the fact that he's shown his swing in many different angles and it is a great swing.
Keern's vids didn't do this theory much service, so it'd be great if you, Alansmithdc post yours.
btw where was this quote taken from ? "The swing is easy if I tell you where to look". I only recall him saying something like this about his secret.
thanks!
#29
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:49 AM
Tiltswing, on Jun 30 2009, 10:33 PM, said:
All great ball strikers impact the ball with a flat left wrist. Here are some examples:
Keern's wrist is bent at impact, like this:
It would probably be better if you were to offer a more detailed explanation of Hogan's angle. However, looking at Keern's swing, he does not swing down on a plane angle resembling Hogan and neither do I. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible that either Keern or I are on "Hogan's angle."
Keern's wrist is bent at impact, like this:
It would probably be better if you were to offer a more detailed explanation of Hogan's angle. However, looking at Keern's swing, he does not swing down on a plane angle resembling Hogan and neither do I. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible that either Keern or I are on "Hogan's angle."
do you think if someone sets up with a very strong left grip position, they can still have that flat left wrist look at impact? seems like a strong left grip would have the knuckles leading and would look like a slight cup at impact (when viewed face on.) could hogan's flat left wrist be mostly a function of his weak left grip? (don't know about the grips of the others you posted.) seems like a strong left grip would require manipulation and face shutting to look flat at impact.
#30
Posted 01 July 2009 - 11:18 AM
Does the angle described by Keerns sound similar to the angle of thrust described by Lynn Blake in this video?
http://www.youtube.c...8...F68&index=7
From 2:30 mins onwards...
It is (in TGM terms) a crossline thrust although the motion can be on-line...
See also "right forearm angle of approach"...maybe
http://www.youtube.c...8...F68&index=7
From 2:30 mins onwards...
It is (in TGM terms) a crossline thrust although the motion can be on-line...
See also "right forearm angle of approach"...maybe
#31
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 11:28 AM
jduncanm3, on Jul 1 2009, 10:49 AM, said:
Tiltswing, on Jun 30 2009, 10:33 PM, said:
All great ball strikers impact the ball with a flat left wrist. Here are some examples:
Keern's wrist is bent at impact, like this:
It would probably be better if you were to offer a more detailed explanation of Hogan's angle. However, looking at Keern's swing, he does not swing down on a plane angle resembling Hogan and neither do I. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible that either Keern or I are on "Hogan's angle."
Keern's wrist is bent at impact, like this:
It would probably be better if you were to offer a more detailed explanation of Hogan's angle. However, looking at Keern's swing, he does not swing down on a plane angle resembling Hogan and neither do I. Therefore, I do not see how it is possible that either Keern or I are on "Hogan's angle."
do you think if someone sets up with a very strong left grip position, they can still have that flat left wrist look at impact? seems like a strong left grip would have the knuckles leading and would look like a slight cup at impact (when viewed face on.) could hogan's flat left wrist be mostly a function of his weak left grip? (don't know about the grips of the others you posted.) seems like a strong left grip would require manipulation and face shutting to look flat at impact.
The 3rd picture shows what someone with a stronger grip looks like at impact. Flat left wrist, but hands much further ahead of the ball.
#32
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 12:16 PM
You mean 2nd? Who is that btw, Quiros before he went straw hat?
#33
Posted 01 July 2009 - 03:07 PM
Hi Bovi:
Good observation. From what I read, Hogan likened the swinging of a golf club to that of swinging s baseball bat. So it makes sense that it would be a hitting motion.
As for the quote, I have read so much on Hogan, I don't remember exactly where it came from. Maybe Tom Betrand's book. I think you are correct. He was referring to the secret. Everyone has been looking for the secret in his swing motion. I don't think it is there. He literally meant, where he looks so he knows where the swing is too go. Makes sense. If you are flying fishing, you cast your fly to the direction that you are looking. You don't cast your fly by bringing the triangle back against a braced right leg, then fire the right knee towards the target and if everything comes together your fly drops onto the water where you want it. I will try to get that photo of Hogan and Bob Hope up. You'll see what I mean.
Alan
Good observation. From what I read, Hogan likened the swinging of a golf club to that of swinging s baseball bat. So it makes sense that it would be a hitting motion.
As for the quote, I have read so much on Hogan, I don't remember exactly where it came from. Maybe Tom Betrand's book. I think you are correct. He was referring to the secret. Everyone has been looking for the secret in his swing motion. I don't think it is there. He literally meant, where he looks so he knows where the swing is too go. Makes sense. If you are flying fishing, you cast your fly to the direction that you are looking. You don't cast your fly by bringing the triangle back against a braced right leg, then fire the right knee towards the target and if everything comes together your fly drops onto the water where you want it. I will try to get that photo of Hogan and Bob Hope up. You'll see what I mean.
Alan
#34
Posted 01 July 2009 - 03:30 PM
In response to golfbulldog's question, yes that is an effect. To clarify, it is an effect, the concept though and the reason Hogan's Angle isn't prevalent is objectivity. In TGM terms and most terms throughout golf the swing is viewed objectively, that is, from outside the golf swing looking in on it. The reason Ben Hogan's Secret remained a secret is possessive. Mr. Hogan owned his secret, it existed within his mind. To "know where to look" one must look from within. To see Hogan's Angle one must think like Hogan. One must see from where he saw.
Why did his swing adopt unique characteristics? Why was "Five Lessons" written in a way which doesn't prescribe to traditional perspectives? Why? Because traditional perspectives are from outside the swing. Why view the swing from outside? (Rhetorical question) The club isn't swung from the outside.
Why did his swing adopt unique characteristics? Why was "Five Lessons" written in a way which doesn't prescribe to traditional perspectives? Why? Because traditional perspectives are from outside the swing. Why view the swing from outside? (Rhetorical question) The club isn't swung from the outside.
#35
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 03:33 PM
alansmithdc, on Jul 2 2009, 06:07 AM, said:
Hi Bovi:
Good observation. From what I read, Hogan likened the swinging of a golf club to that of swinging s baseball bat. So it makes sense that it would be a hitting motion.
As for the quote, I have read so much on Hogan, I don't remember exactly where it came from. Maybe Tom Betrand's book. I think you are correct. He was referring to the secret. Everyone has been looking for the secret in his swing motion I have been. I don't think it is there. I do He literally meant, How do you know what he meant...literally? where he looks so he knows where the swing is too go. Makes sense.All great players have a 'target' for their swing so it does make sense that Mr. Hogan had one.....was it always at 22 degrees? I doubt it. If you are flying fishing, you cast your fly to the direction that you are looking. You don't cast your fly by bringing the triangle back against a braced right leg, then fire the right knee towards the target and if everything comes together your fly drops onto the water where you want it. 'If' being the key word there...there were no ifs in his action, that's why we all look at it. Keern may indeed be perfectly 'on angle' and it hasn't achieved results that even satisfy the basic criteria of moderately efficient ballstriking. I will try to get that photo of Hogan and Bob Hope up. You'll see what I mean.
Alan
Good observation. From what I read, Hogan likened the swinging of a golf club to that of swinging s baseball bat. So it makes sense that it would be a hitting motion.
As for the quote, I have read so much on Hogan, I don't remember exactly where it came from. Maybe Tom Betrand's book. I think you are correct. He was referring to the secret. Everyone has been looking for the secret in his swing motion I have been. I don't think it is there. I do He literally meant, How do you know what he meant...literally? where he looks so he knows where the swing is too go. Makes sense.All great players have a 'target' for their swing so it does make sense that Mr. Hogan had one.....was it always at 22 degrees? I doubt it. If you are flying fishing, you cast your fly to the direction that you are looking. You don't cast your fly by bringing the triangle back against a braced right leg, then fire the right knee towards the target and if everything comes together your fly drops onto the water where you want it. 'If' being the key word there...there were no ifs in his action, that's why we all look at it. Keern may indeed be perfectly 'on angle' and it hasn't achieved results that even satisfy the basic criteria of moderately efficient ballstriking. I will try to get that photo of Hogan and Bob Hope up. You'll see what I mean.
Alan
Alan, he also said...."Do everything the opposite of your natural instincts and you will come close to having the perfect golf swing".
What if you look down Keerns' angle and do the opposite of your natural inclination? If Keern reversed 90% of his moves his swing would be pretty darn good imo.
#36
Posted 01 July 2009 - 06:50 PM
alansmithdc, on Jul 1 2009, 09:30 PM, said:
In response to golfbulldog's question, yes that is an effect. To clarify, it is an effect, the concept though and the reason Hogan's Angle isn't prevalent is objectivity. In TGM terms and most terms throughout golf the swing is viewed objectively, that is, from outside the golf swing looking in on it. The reason Ben Hogan's Secret remained a secret is possessive. Mr. Hogan owned his secret, it existed within his mind. To "know where to look" one must look from within. To see Hogan's Angle one must think like Hogan. One must see from where he saw.
Why did his swing adopt unique characteristics? Why was "Five Lessons" written in a way which doesn't prescribe to traditional perspectives? Why? Because traditional perspectives are from outside the swing. Why view the swing from outside? (Rhetorical question) The club isn't swung from the outside.
Why did his swing adopt unique characteristics? Why was "Five Lessons" written in a way which doesn't prescribe to traditional perspectives? Why? Because traditional perspectives are from outside the swing. Why view the swing from outside? (Rhetorical question) The club isn't swung from the outside.
I would suggest that the sense of thrust that is described in Lynn Blake's video is an internal description of the swing - it is a feel.
Homer Kelley's TGM uses sensation as the control system of the swing - it's just that those feelings are learnt from applying force in a geometrically correct manner - force application and alignment. It would be interesting if Keern senses any lag pressure and if so where he feels that sensation is directed.
I agree with most others that his swing does not represent a strong impact and immediate post impact condition (in that it looks little like Hogan or other pros) but we have not seen the swing from the era before he started doing his angle stuff...it could have been worse. Equally the swing he is currrently practising may be better than he has previously posted.
I would like to see him write more on this thread without too many attack dogs to fend off...question him by all means but at least spend a few days considering his replies.
#37
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Posted 01 July 2009 - 08:09 PM
You do realize that Hogan didn't actually write the book don't you? Ideas were his but sentence structure and wording was written by someone else. I also think the Hogan Angle stuff is BS and if it was so correct then you wouldn't need to use Hogan's name for marketing purposes.
#38
Posted 01 July 2009 - 08:43 PM
I wonder. Has anyone tried swinging on Hogan's Angle. Look at the foot drawings/ball placement drawingsat the end of Five Lessons. Hogan didn't need to draw the hashed marked lines from the tip of the right toe to the golf ball. He did that to show the direction the hands/clubshaft/clubhead moves as the swing moves along Hogan's Angle. If someone can show me another concept, other than Hogan's Angle, that makes things move along those hashed marked lines, then please share.
Alan
Alan
#39
Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:10 PM
Hogan was quoted in his interview with Nick Seitz that he would not change a thing in his book. So obviously he was well aware of the wording and sentence structures in his book, Five Lessons. As for marketing I'm doing no marketing. I make no money off of golfers. I am an amateur golfer who, like many millions of amateur golfers is just looking to play this game a little better. Hogan's Angle is a marketing term developed by Keern. Yes, he is marketing his knowledge. If you are a professional teacher, than you are making your living teaching. Perhaps your teaching style, has been able to beat the statistics of the past 50 years showing that USGA handicap index amoungst all but the top tiered professionals has not changed. Let's talk again at a different forum about all the billions of dollars being thrown at the golfing industry, over the past decades, with club design, ball design, multi-million dollar PGA playing bonuses, golf instruction, golf training aids. If all this type of marketing hype worked, then the statistics would bear it out. If I have to weigh the billion dollar golf industry B.S. against an insightful individual, well, it is like weighing a mountain against a tuft of grass.
Have you, as an open minded, I assume, PGA golf teaching professional, even tried to swing along Hogan's Angle? If you don't like the term Hogan's Angle, let's call it skipping a stone angle, or tossing a frisbee left handed angle, or how about a two handed basketball pass angle. I don't care. Let's refer to it as the 2HBPA (Two Handed Basketball Pass Angle) in reference to Hogan's description of the motion made by the hands, arms and body coming into impact.
Why don't you share with this forum, the model that you have created to allow all of us average golfers to achieve the motions that Hogan described in his book. Then we will end this forum and create a new one called Iteachgolfers how to hit a ball like Ben Hogan forum.
Alan Smith D.C.
Have you, as an open minded, I assume, PGA golf teaching professional, even tried to swing along Hogan's Angle? If you don't like the term Hogan's Angle, let's call it skipping a stone angle, or tossing a frisbee left handed angle, or how about a two handed basketball pass angle. I don't care. Let's refer to it as the 2HBPA (Two Handed Basketball Pass Angle) in reference to Hogan's description of the motion made by the hands, arms and body coming into impact.
Why don't you share with this forum, the model that you have created to allow all of us average golfers to achieve the motions that Hogan described in his book. Then we will end this forum and create a new one called Iteachgolfers how to hit a ball like Ben Hogan forum.
Alan Smith D.C.
#40
Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:27 PM
alansmithdc, on Jul 1 2009, 10:10 PM, said:
Hogan was quoted in his interview with Nick Seitz that he would not change a thing in his book. So obviously he was well aware of the wording and sentence structures in his book, Five Lessons. As for marketing I'm doing no marketing. I make no money off of golfers. I am an amateur golfer who, like many millions of amateur golfers is just looking to play this game a little better. Hogan's Angle is a marketing term developed by Keern. Yes, he is marketing his knowledge. If you are a professional teacher, than you are making your living teaching. Perhaps your teaching style, has been able to beat the statistics of the past 50 years showing that USGA handicap index amoungst all but the top tiered professionals has not changed. Let's talk again at a different forum about all the billions of dollars being thrown at the golfing industry, over the past decades, with club design, ball design, multi-million dollar PGA playing bonuses, golf instruction, golf training aids. If all this type of marketing hype worked, then the statistics would bear it out. If I have to weigh the billion dollar golf industry B.S. against an insightful individual, well, it is like weighing a mountain against a tuft of grass.
Have you, as an open minded, I assume, PGA golf teaching professional, even tried to swing along Hogan's Angle? If you don't like the term Hogan's Angle, let's call it skipping a stone angle, or tossing a frisbee left handed angle, or how about a two handed basketball pass angle. I don't care. Let's refer to it as the 2HBPA (Two Handed Basketball Pass Angle) in reference to Hogan's description of the motion made by the hands, arms and body coming into impact.
Why don't you share with this forum, the model that you have created to allow all of us average golfers to achieve the motions that Hogan described in his book. Then we will end this forum and create a new one called Iteachgolfers how to hit a ball like Ben Hogan forum.
Alan Smith D.C.
Have you, as an open minded, I assume, PGA golf teaching professional, even tried to swing along Hogan's Angle? If you don't like the term Hogan's Angle, let's call it skipping a stone angle, or tossing a frisbee left handed angle, or how about a two handed basketball pass angle. I don't care. Let's refer to it as the 2HBPA (Two Handed Basketball Pass Angle) in reference to Hogan's description of the motion made by the hands, arms and body coming into impact.
Why don't you share with this forum, the model that you have created to allow all of us average golfers to achieve the motions that Hogan described in his book. Then we will end this forum and create a new one called Iteachgolfers how to hit a ball like Ben Hogan forum.
Alan Smith D.C.
Watch where you're going. Iteachgolf has a great swing and is very knowledgeable. He is an authorized instructor of The Golfing Machine and understands the S&T pattern as well. From what I gather, he is a very fine teacher and should be treated as such. With all due respect, Keern is yet to prove himself as a great instructor, and I am certain there are many more individuals willing to testify on Iteachgolf's behalf than on the behalf of Keern. You have yet to thoroughly explain Hogan's angle, but needless to say, Iteachgolf's swing is much closer to Hogan's mechanics than Keern's swing.
