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No Sight line / dot. What are the benefits?


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#31 commanderspalace24

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:29 PM

Crazy to think that Custom Cameron will not take lines away from putters.  As to the poster saying its hard to line up the line vs the face I agree.  Personally when I line of the face the line on my putter looks to be sitting about 1/2 inch on the inside of the ball pointing right, almost like I line it up on the toe??  I've thought Tiger looks like he lines his up on the toe.  No way comparing myself to him but that got me thinking that maybe he's doing something we or atleast I have no idea of.  That definately make me think I line up pointing left, usally the side I miss putts to.


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#32 JessN16

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 02:28 AM

I'm a terrible golfer overall but I can drive and putt. What's in between is what kills me.

I'm a hobbyist clubmaker, too, and have made several putters for myself over the years. Here is what I've found is true for my game, in order from best to worst:

1) A mallet putter with a "two-ball"-style alignment device (in my case, a Golfsmith XPC Sapphire) that also has a single line going from the middle of the two-ball up to the topline of the club;

2) A blade-style putter with no alignment device whatsoever;
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99) Anything with multiple alignment lines.

On my No. 2 above, I've found that when there isn't an alignment device in play, I tend to see the putter head as a big box and use the whole thing as an alignment device. I have a feeling the reason the two-ball works is because the alignment device in question is so big (it's the same size as a ball) that I tend to see it the same way I see the naked blade.

Jess

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#33 Smack Daddy

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 10:20 PM

In my bag is one of the original Yes Callie putters that didn't have any markings at all. I find it makes me square up the face to the line. I wouldn't even consider a model with any type of dots or lines.

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#34 bobsuruncle

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 11:45 AM

 dwboston, on May 14 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

I had always had a sight line on the flange of my putters (mostly Anser style) and my putting was very inconsistent.  Last year I bought a putter from Byron with only a sight dot and my putting has improved dramatically.  The main thing I noticed was that I have a more natural arc stroke with just the sight dot on the top line and I don't have to worry about trying to line up a sight line with the line on the ball.  I won't have a sight line on any putter after this...not that this one is leaving the bag.   :good:

Great thread and thanks for all the super inputs.  A quick question - do the dot / line alignment aids - work differently with a straight-back, straight-through ("SBST") putting stroke vs an in-out-in (or arc) putting stroke?  I am assuming the line on the flange actually helps in a SBST stroke.  Yes / No?  Thanks

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#35 weten2

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:25 AM

I've read this topic and was ready to look for a anser putter with a dot or one small line on the front flange. I started testing in the store and did not have the confidence with alignment. Last night I was watching the Colonial and noticed all the mallet type putters in use. I guess this is one of those personal things everyone talks about; what works for one may not for another.
Do the simple anser putters with no sight lines work better for a low handicap, who plays alot vs a 16 hcp who plays once a week?
Is this influenced by eyesite ability or eye dominance?


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#36 mwlevey

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:11 AM

 Will Par, on May 11 2009, 04:33 PM, said:

From my experience, if a putter has a sight line, the eyes will be drawn to it and will attempt to use it for alignment.  If the sight line is on the flange, the eyes are drawn away from the putter face.  Oftentimes, positioning the sight line square to the line of the putt makes the putter face appear to be closed.  Thus I find a sight line distracting and if I use a putter with a sight line, I will cover the sight line with a strip of lead tape.  All I want is a sight dot that marks the center of the putter face.  I align by squaring the putter face to the back of the ball.  It is easy and simple to align to the back center of the ball instead of aiming at a point in the distance beyond the ball.  That's how my eyes work and how I putt.


I recently switched to no alignment aid on my putter for this same reason.  I used to putt with an anser style putter with a flange line and I would line up with a line that I put on my golf ball.  But, I found that during the stroke, my eye was drawn to the alignment line on the putter, not the ball.  

I still put a line on my golf ball, but I have no line on my putter.  My putting stats have improved by quite a bit since the switch.

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#37 srsbeans

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 11:07 AM

I guess my experience is similar to many others: when using putters with a sight line I would focus on the line rather than the face of the putter, then when I would look back at the ball the face would not look square. It was always a distraction and I think I was also guilty of watching the line as I began my backstroke and letting that influence my stroke. I've switched to a black putter with white sight dot as a sweet spot reference and my aim as improved drastically. I still like to draw a dark colored line on my ball for alignment and I find this combination is incredibly easy to square up (white ball w/ black line, black putter w/ sight dot).
This thread should be stickied... incredibly interesting statistics from bargolf.

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#38 MrWolf

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 03:06 PM

After the numerous interesting comments in this thread and those stats from Bruce, I removed the paint fill from the sight line on my Whitlam. I have subsequently had a couple of excellent putting rounds (31 today, which is good for me). I notice the line far less, though it is still there, and have just focussed on squaring the face and making a smooth stroke. As a result my aiming has definitely improved and, more importantly my misses are much closer which drastically helps with consistency. I'm not sure how much this is to do with the paint removal as I've also made some set up changes, but I'm sure it's had an impact.

My Byron is currently on order and Steve had managed to get me one with not sight aid at all. Naturally I can't wait to receive it. I'll be interested to see if this improvement in my aiming continues!

Edited by Eagle006, 30 May 2009 - 03:06 PM.

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#39 Babydaddy

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 03:06 PM

Thank you all for this thread.
I have a Ping with no sight dot or line of any kind, but I only use it at home. Strangely, I feel like I aim better with it. No I can see how that might be the case.
I am going to try to use it on the course and see what happens!

Noelsy

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#40 ssp

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 03:21 PM

In addition to going to the Newport (no lines or dot) I have gone to placing my ball with all white looking back at me.  I am finding this is improving my alignment and concentration.  I am focusing more on the face and the ball (and making the right putt).  Over analyzing the line is an issue I think.  I have also noticed I dont take my eye off the ball any longer - I used to have a tendency of to watch the putter head and alignment which really screws you up.


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#41 bobsuruncle

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:10 PM

does anyone use a putter with a sight line on top of the putter (not on the flange) and broken by a dot in the middle of the face?  does this make it easier to square the face of the putter?

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#42 jgriff

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 10:29 PM

Well I've come full circle back to a Newport, which I had for a short while last year but thought I needed a sight-line (wrong). I do much better just squaring the head to my intended target. I'm less distracted, and have a much better arc flow to my stroke. For whatever reason the sightline had me aiming left most of the time on long distance putts.

~Jim.

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#43 ssp

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 07:38 AM

View Postssp, on Jul 1 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

In addition to going to the Newport (no lines or dot) I have gone to placing my ball with all white looking back at me. I am finding this is improving my alignment and concentration. I am focusing more on the face and the ball (and making the right putt). Over analyzing the line is an issue I think. I have also noticed I dont take my eye off the ball any longer - I used to have a tendency of to watch the putter head and alignment which really screws you up.

Never mind - I am back to sucking at putting!  Brought out the hammy for 9 Holes and made a few.  I think I am back to changing up putters now and again to get a fresh look.  I suppose practice is a consideration??  Nah... :bad:

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#44 Babydaddy

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 09:40 AM

View Postssp, on Jul 1 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

In addition to going to the Newport (no lines or dot) I have gone to placing my ball with all white looking back at me.  I am finding this is improving my alignment and concentration.  I am focusing more on the face and the ball (and making the right putt).  Over analyzing the line is an issue I think.  I have also noticed I dont take my eye off the ball any longer - I used to have a tendency of to watch the putter head and alignment which really screws you up.
that's super hot right there. I am going to try it

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#45 newportbeach

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 09:54 AM

Interesting thread thanks - how about a line on the top of the putter?  This seems to be fairly popular on the tour right now and may be similar to a sight dot in that it doesn't adversely affect putting.


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#46 flounder

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 12:50 PM

I've been using a rife two bar the last few seasons and it is the best putter I have ever used for alignment.  It has a wide blade to square it to the hole as well as a sight line and the bars for checking the alignment.  However, recently I've been having trouble keeping the face and the sight line and bars separate.  I look down and see too much going on and it takes to long to line up a putt.  I found a Yes Carolyne which is center shafted with no markings, much easier to line up allowing me to stroke the putt quicker which is much better than fidgeting over a putt.  The Yes may not make more putts but its no worse than the two bar and a little easier for me to use.  I'm a believer that you should have at least two putters because looking at the same putter all the time starts to play tricks on your eyes.  I realize that this won't apply to everybody, because some use the same putter year after year (Tiger) with great results.

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#47 blahoo

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 02:07 PM

I always view a sightline as a way to hit the center of the putter face to the center of the ball.  I find that a putter face perpindicular to the aim line is the true measure of square.  Otherwise we might start to see putter manufacturers moving sightlines around to promote different paths.  Maybe a better idea for all of us.

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#48 MrWolf

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 03:08 PM

View Postblahoo, on Jul 16 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

I always view a sightline as a way to hit the center of the putter face to the center of the ball.  I find that a putter face perpindicular to the aim line is the true measure of square.  Otherwise we might start to see putter manufacturers moving sightlines around to promote different paths.  Maybe a better idea for all of us.

Not a bad idea, though isn't this what Scotty Cameron with the Detour, which bombed?
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#49 blahoo

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 04:13 PM

I think the detour was a little tough to look at because the entire tongue was curved.  I meant to say that the lines on a putter might not be in line with the sweet spot of the putter.  I think move that line towards the heel a bit to promote inside to inside contact, or towards the toe for the opposite effect.

Edited by blahoo, 23 July 2009 - 04:13 PM.


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#50 hebron1427

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:31 AM

I agree with most of the posters that a "naked" look is easier. For me, it's like this: I don't have a line or dot telling me to line up any of my other shots. Why should my putter be any different? It makes it more like a real swing than some type of manipulated position.


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#51 rlynham

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 10:47 AM

View Postbargolf, on 13 May 2009 - 12:34 PM, said:

Eagle,

At the United States Golf Academy we have measured over 30,000 putting strokes - about 2000 players on our PuttLab system.

92% perform better with their eyes closed during the stroke. (Elimination of visual interference)
Less than 40% can aim the putter within 2 degrees of their chosen target with an alignment aid on the putter. (Putt missed at 12 feet) This improves to 70% without the visual references on the putter.

Only 60% can match the line on the putter to a line on the ball (within one degree). It is much worse when the sight line is in the cavity behind the face. The number improves to over 90% when there is a line on the ball no line on the putter and they square the face to the line (again within 1 degree). I am not familiar with David Orr's work but maybe these numbers will help you.

Good Luck with your new putter. Byron does great work.

Bargolf


Interesting stuff. I recently custom ordered a putter with no sighline or sight dot. I figured i could haven them added later if i decided i needed some help.

Not only do i feel more comfortable lining up the putter I also have no problem hitting the ball on the sweet spot.

Edited by rlynham, 26 November 2010 - 10:53 AM.

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#52 jchastain

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 03:39 PM

View PostEagle006, on 18 May 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

Sounds like some people are getting some pretty good results using no sight dot/line. Keep the feedback coming. I'm interested to see if the experiences of members here back up the stats & results posted by Bruce earlier in the thread.

I have personally witnessed better putting stats by using a "Naked" putter as well. My first "Naked" experience is when I bought my first Slighter FPR which had no alignment aids. At first I felt a little lost as I have always used a putter with a sight line and I was used to the setup. I even added a sight dot with some white modeling paint to the top line because I figured it was "stupid" to not use "aids" to align the putter.

Then slowly after a few weeks it felt completly natural to use a putter with no alignment aids. I took off the temporary sight dot and I got even better with my putting.

As of right now I will never use another putter with a sight dot or sight lines. I have even considered having a circa 62 (my fav cameron) sight dot welded in and then refinishing the putter to get rid of the site dot.

In conclusion, I feel that sight dots, sight lines, or "busy" putters distracts the brain from the simple goal of hitting the ball into the hole.
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#53 panda10

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:28 AM

I've struggled with putting for 10 years. 4 months ago I covered up my sight line I previously thought I needed to have and have putted by far the best ever. Sight line actually threw my alignment off 2 degrees left.

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#54 HeadonaStick

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:44 AM

View Postbargolf, on 13 May 2009 - 12:34 PM, said:

Eagle,

At the United States Golf Academy we have measured over 30,000 putting strokes - about 2000 players on our PuttLab system.

92% perform better with their eyes closed during the stroke. (Elimination of visual interference)
Less than 40% can aim the putter within 2 degrees of their chosen target with an alignment aid on the putter. (Putt missed at 12 feet) This improves to 70% without the visual references on the putter.

Only 60% can match the line on the putter to a line on the ball (within one degree). It is much worse when the sight line is in the cavity behind the face. The number improves to over 90% when there is a line on the ball no line on the putter and they square the face to the line (again within 1 degree). I am not familiar with David Orr's work but maybe these numbers will help you.

Good Luck with your new putter. Byron does great work.

Bargolf
Interesting...

I can't putt with a sightline.  My favorite Mills putter of all time arrived with a sight line and I wanted so much to make it work, but I just couldn't do it.  I finally sold it and went with a putter with no alignment aids and it is working great.  I also had an identical putter with a sight oval which worked just as well.  I just prefer the clean look.

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#55 theshining

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 10:25 AM

Removing the sight line from my Cleveland Classic 4 tonight. Results may vary........



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#56 schwollo

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 12:13 PM

During my edel putter fitting the fitter told/showed me that a sight line moves your eyes toward the back if the putter.. for some it helps and others,  like myself,  it throws your aim off.

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#57 presario

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 05:42 PM

I find it very difficult to use a putter without a sightline. For me, this is strictly an alignment tool prior to hitting the putt. Once you step up to the ball and have your lines match (ball line and sightline), you're not looking at the sightline as you make your stroke so it doesn't affect arc or stroke for me. In my mind, if I don't have a sightline, angling the putterface perfectly perpendicular with the line of my ball is another variable that I don't want introduce into my stroke.

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#58 Scotty1140

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 05:47 PM

Just started using a Cameron Newport with not sightline or dot and actually do find it easier to line up. Plus, having such a "plain" look at address is really nice.No distractions.

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#59 PZero

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 05:52 PM

View PostScotty1140, on 19 September 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

Just started using a Cameron Newport with not sightline or dot and actually do find it easier to line up. Plus, having such a "plain" look at address is really nice.No distractions.

Exactly, that's why I love my Newport. Nice clean look without any distractions.

It did take a round or 3 to get use to though.
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#60 bob86gn

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 06:40 PM

I successfully read this post, spent an hour looking at putters on ebay and finally talked myself out of buying one.

It is pretty hard to find one with no line.  Very interesting topic.


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