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No Sight line / dot. What are the benefits?


164 replies to this topic

#121 snookybusby

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:14 PM

View Postnova6868, on 27 February 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

View PostFourmyle of Ceres, on 26 February 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

The face angle of the putter at impact determines about 80% of the ball's initial direction and the clubhead path at impact determines about 20%.

I think with putting it's even higher? Probably almost 100% face angle.
  

Anyone have some trackman putter numbers?


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#122 Hstead

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:45 PM

According to these guys, 92% is determined by face and 8% by path.

http://www.quinticba...1_Inst.Putt.pdf

"What happens when there is a mis-match between face and path
with the putter?
The breakdown is that approximately 92% of the ball’s initial direction is
determined by putter face angle at impact and only 8% is the result of the
putter path. The two together determine the horizontal direction of the ball
and also if there is any hook or cut spin applied to the ball. Again using the
Quintic Ball Roll System, the amount of hook or cut spin imparted on the ball
can be shown.
"

Edited by Hstead, 27 February 2014 - 07:46 PM.

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#123 AZPhys13

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:46 AM

Just found this topic while killing time waiting for my new Anser 0 from the BST to arrive.  

In order to avoid alignment "aids" myself, I have been playing an old thrift shop Anser for the last couple of years.  I finally decided to upgrade and was disappointed to see the limited offerings for naked putters though the Anser 0 is just what I wanted.  It's a shame that the big OEMs don't produce more naked putters because the sight line was the exact reason I was never tempted to spend the money on the Ping Redwoods.
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#124 rjp322

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 03:31 PM

Read the entire thread and this keeps getting overlooked.  What about just a line on the top line such as this?  Seems far less distracting and you can put the line directly up to the ball.  Thoughts?

Posted Image

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#125 bjackson

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:46 PM

View Postrjp322, on 20 March 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Read the entire thread and this keeps getting overlooked.  What about just a line on the top line such as this?  Seems far less distracting and you can put the line directly up to the ball.  Thoughts?

Just like a site dot, site line on the flange, "naked", etc. is just another option. It will help some people square the face at address. It depends on the individual golfer and there is not a one size fits all. Instead, by having an array of options, there is a spectrum for people to choose from in order to get the best individual results.


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#126 johnnythunders

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:54 PM

I like a putter that has a line parallel to the face and either 2, 3 or more lines in the flange. Never Comprimise NCX Xray or Scotty Cameron Futura x and they they can be white but prefer red. Black doesnt work for me. If no Line, I use pinstriping tape. Has to be 1/16 to 1/8", wider doesn't work. Looks like a T.

This helps me line up the face square to the target. I always look a few inches in front of the ball and do not watch the putter go back. If I do watch it I miss, so dead stare at my spot in front of the putter.  

I started this when I got into #9 style putters but then found I was a sbst guy not an arch guy so I switched and my putting is much better.
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#127 razz11

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 06:37 AM

Interesting...  When I first started playing I had a Ping Tess that was naked.  I putted very well with it, but thought the heel shaft thing wasn't for me.  Maybe I'll have to snag my preferred anser style in the nude and try it out...
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#128 dieselmd

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 06:59 AM

View Postrazz11, on 22 March 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Interesting...  When I first started playing I had a Ping Tess that was naked.  I putted very well with it, but thought the heel shaft thing wasn't for me.  Maybe I'll have to snag my preferred anser style in the nude and try it out...

Something like this.
Screen Shot 2014-03-22 at 7.57.04 AM.png

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#129 mosesgolf

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 07:58 PM

I started horsing around with a Scotty Newport today with no sight lines.  I really liked it.  It deserves more testing but initially I couldn't tell a difference.  If definitely feels different not using a sight line as I've always had one on my putters.  The no lines lets me focus on the line and stroke much better.
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#130 Birdie Wooster

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:45 PM

Fascinating thread, the sort of stuff that keeps us coming back to Golfwrx.  Civil, too!  I have a question for the experts:  is there any reason why you would EVER have a single line vs. two parallel lines?  My own preference is two parallel lines on the top line, a preference I share with Nicklaus and seemingly no one else.  I think it is easier to center the ball between two lines as opposed to lining up a single line or dot at the center of the ball.  So, does the research quoted above by bargolf oertain to all lines, or only lines on the flange.  Also:  for me anyway, the cricial issue is whether or not the line or lines extends all the way to the ball. A mallet with lines that extend all the way to the back of the putter works fine, e.g. on a Zebra, but if the lines are in a cavity and don't extent to the face they are worse than worthless.  Incidentally, as far as I can tell, the ONLY off-the-rack option for two lines on the topline is the Big Oak Boston B.


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#131 MrWolf

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 06:13 PM

View PostBirdie Wooster, on 25 April 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Fascinating thread, the sort of stuff that keeps us coming back to Golfwrx.  Civil, too!  I have a question for the experts:  is there any reason why you would EVER have a single line vs. two parallel lines?  My own preference is two parallel lines on the top line, a preference I share with Nicklaus and seemingly no one else.  I think it is easier to center the ball between two lines as opposed to lining up a single line or dot at the center of the ball.  So, does the research quoted above by bargolf oertain to all lines, or only lines on the flange.  Also:  for me anyway, the cricial issue is whether or not the line or lines extends all the way to the ball. A mallet with lines that extend all the way to the back of the putter works fine, e.g. on a Zebra, but if the lines are in a cavity and don't extent to the face they are worse than worthless.  Incidentally, as far as I can tell, the ONLY off-the-rack option for two lines on the topline is the Big Oak Boston B.


Very good question. I imagine the reason dual sight lines are uncommon is the same reason OTR putters with no sight aids are uncommon, namely it's 'not the done thing' therefore they don't sell. If there's one thing that's clear, it's that OEM manufacturers will put sales above anything, including what's best for the average golfer. Another example is 46" driver shafts. Anyway, you were referring to something like this?




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#132 Birdie Wooster

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 07:18 PM

Yes, exactly that.  I would have bought that in a heartbeat had I seen it when it was available.  Just perfect!

Edited by Birdie Wooster, 27 April 2015 - 09:43 PM.


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#133 MrWolf

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 07:00 AM

Update to this topic.

In the summer I went for an Edel putter fitting and it was an eye-opening experience to say the least. What we found was that I have a tendency to consistently aim left of my target. After playing around with multiple head options, we found that any sort of sight aid or alignment, completely throws off my aim. That is to say, I aim much more accurate at aligning the putter with my target when it is a blank head with no sight line or sight dot etc. This result reinforced what I had suspected for a while but it was interesting to see the results so clearly demonstrated.

That is not to say that a putter with no sight aid will benefit everyone, but I wonder how many people are making putting more difficult for themselves by using a putter with a sight aid that is confusing their brains's ability to aim the the club properly?
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#134 Jtoep

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 08:59 AM

I just moved to a putter with a site dot and noticed that my alignment has improved some, helping me pay more attention to the line i was to play.

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#135 Lukebrz

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:02 PM

Great thread! It took some time reading it but definitely worth it. Thanks everyone who contributed! My search for perfect putter (for me) is another step easier.


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#136 doglover72

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 08:13 PM

View PostWolfWRX, on 04 January 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Update to this topic.

In the summer I went for an Edel putter fitting and it was an eye-opening experience to say the least. What we found was that I have a tendency to consistently aim left of my target. After playing around with multiple head options, we found that any sort of sight aid or alignment, completely throws off my aim. That is to say, I aim much more accurate at aligning the putter with my target when it is a blank head with no sight line or sight dot etc. This result reinforced what I had suspected for a while but it was interesting to see the results so clearly demonstrated.

That is not to say that a putter with no sight aid will benefit everyone, but I wonder how many people are making putting more difficult for themselves by using a putter with a sight aid that is confusing their brains's ability to aim the the club properly?

Odd Bc I love naked putters too but my Edel fitting showed I aimed them way left. The one the fitting showed I aim best with: a single flange line!!

Edited by doglover72, 17 June 2017 - 08:14 PM.


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#137 bazinoz

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:30 AM

Finally, some science behind the reason why my favorite 8802 style putters seem to align better for me. Plain, simple, no dot, no lines, nothing. Just line up the face and the hands don't keep trying to "correct" things.

8802/Napa's are mainly nice and naked like a good putter should be. Now I know there is a reason for it, maybe I'll putt even better now :)
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Posted Image

The exceptions to no-line are the 8882 Blk, 8813 and a Yes Sophia.

Edited by bazinoz, 31 August 2017 - 05:17 AM.


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#138 Sean289

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 07:48 AM

I think ultimately a sight line or dot helps everyone with aim and alignment but on a near weekly basis, I hit a few putts with my PING Anser that has no sightline on my living room carpet as a reminder to trust the line I choose to take when aiming. I think in the grand scheme of things, it makes a difference when I hit the course with my gamer that has a sightline.

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#139 Backspin9

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 08:03 AM

Every putter I ever used always had sight line or at least a dot.  When I changed over to the red Spider, which has nothing, my putting got immediately better.  I can't explain why, exactly, but I focus more on my shoulder alignment and then just hit the putt.  I'm making more putts from 10 feet and in, and longer lag putts end up being tap-ins.  

Maybe having no sight line makes you focus more on getting the right speed and line, and just making a good stroke.  I am quite sure the putter itself has something to do with it, but the lack of a sight line seems to have had a positive effect.
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#140 SwingMan

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM

View PostWolfWRX, on 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

I used to own a Ping Anser F Ltd Edition which had no sight line or sight dot. I putted great with that putter and therefore did the stupid thing and sold it. Anyway, it got me thinking about alignment aids on putters.

I know there is a school of thought that no alignment aid on a putter actually improves aim. Can anyone expand on this? I believe David Orr is a proponent of this view, but I couldn't find a great deal more on it.

As an aside, I'm in the process of designing a custom DH-89 and am definitely thinking no line / dot is the way to go.

Eagle

Orr is a proponent of the Edel fitting system, which means getting the putter that you actually aim straight -- it is much more than a sightline - it's head shape, hosel, loft, lie, offset, as well as sightlines to refine your aim.

So it's all about getting you to aim where you think you are aiming.

And that means getting custom fit for aim, and then all other elements, such headweight,mshaft, counterbalancing, grip, etc.

Sightlines usually move your aim to the right; a sight dot? I think golfers want to know the sweet spot.

Edited by SwingMan, 18 June 2017 - 09:12 AM.

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#141 MrWolf

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostWolfWRX, on 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

I used to own a Ping Anser F Ltd Edition which had no sight line or sight dot. I putted great with that putter and therefore did the stupid thing and sold it. Anyway, it got me thinking about alignment aids on putters.

I know there is a school of thought that no alignment aid on a putter actually improves aim. Can anyone expand on this? I believe David Orr is a proponent of this view, but I couldn't find a great deal more on it.

As an aside, I'm in the process of designing a custom DH-89 and am definitely thinking no line / dot is the way to go.

Eagle

Orr is a proponent of the Edel fitting system, which means getting the putter that you actually aim straight -- it is much more than a sightline - it's head shape, hosel, loft, lie, offset, as well as sightlines to refine your aim.

So it's all about getting you to aim where you think you are aiming.

And that means getting custom fit for aim, and then all other elements, such headweight,mshaft, counterbalancing, grip, etc.

Sightlines usually move your aim to the right; a sight dot? I think golfers want to know the sweet spot.

See post 133. I went for an Edel fitting last year. It was extremely enlightening. I'd recommend it to anyone.
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#142 Forged4ever

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 01:40 PM

Most of my 8802 style sticks have nothing as far as site aids though a few do have dots and then of course the Staff version of the 8802, the 8813, has the sight "notch" on the top-line and that stupid arse line running perpendicular to the notch on the flange. No wonder it didn't sell and they had to bring the 8802 out of the big boxes and into the pro shops, lmao.

Anyhoo, though I prefer no alignment lines, dots notches or anything looking up at me, I can also adapt and live with anything looking up at me.

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#143 doglover72

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 04:32 PM

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostWolfWRX, on 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

I used to own a Ping Anser F Ltd Edition which had no sight line or sight dot. I putted great with that putter and therefore did the stupid thing and sold it. Anyway, it got me thinking about alignment aids on putters.

I know there is a school of thought that no alignment aid on a putter actually improves aim. Can anyone expand on this? I believe David Orr is a proponent of this view, but I couldn't find a great deal more on it.

As an aside, I'm in the process of designing a custom DH-89 and am definitely thinking no line / dot is the way to go.

Eagle

Orr is a proponent of the Edel fitting system, which means getting the putter that you actually aim straight -- it is much more than a sightline - it's head shape, hosel, loft, lie, offset, as well as sightlines to refine your aim.

So it's all about getting you to aim where you think you are aiming.

And that means getting custom fit for aim, and then all other elements, such headweight,mshaft, counterbalancing, grip, etc.

Sightlines usually move your aim to the right; a sight dot? I think golfers want to know the sweet spot.

Is this right that a sightline moves your aim to the right vs naked?

23

#144 SwingMan

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:55 PM

View Postdoglover72, on 18 June 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostWolfWRX, on 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

I used to own a Ping Anser F Ltd Edition which had no sight line or sight dot. I putted great with that putter and therefore did the stupid thing and sold it. Anyway, it got me thinking about alignment aids on putters.

I know there is a school of thought that no alignment aid on a putter actually improves aim. Can anyone expand on this? I believe David Orr is a proponent of this view, but I couldn't find a great deal more on it.

As an aside, I'm in the process of designing a custom DH-89 and am definitely thinking no line / dot is the way to go.

Eagle

Orr is a proponent of the Edel fitting system, which means getting the putter that you actually aim straight -- it is much more than a sightline - it's head shape, hosel, loft, lie, offset, as well as sightlines to refine your aim.

So it's all about getting you to aim where you think you are aiming.

And that means getting custom fit for aim, and then all other elements, such headweight,mshaft, counterbalancing, grip, etc.

Sightlines usually move your aim to the right; a sight dot? I think golfers want to know the sweet spot.

Is this right that a sightline moves your aim to the right vs naked?

From what I was told and experienced, the sightline has one aim to the left. Many aim right without the sightline, and the line moves them left. More lines ... more left. It is a refinement.
"My swing is so bad, I look like a caveman killing his lunch" - Lee Trevino

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#145 doglover72

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:14 AM

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

View Postdoglover72, on 18 June 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostWolfWRX, on 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

I used to own a Ping Anser F Ltd Edition which had no sight line or sight dot. I putted great with that putter and therefore did the stupid thing and sold it. Anyway, it got me thinking about alignment aids on putters.

I know there is a school of thought that no alignment aid on a putter actually improves aim. Can anyone expand on this? I believe David Orr is a proponent of this view, but I couldn't find a great deal more on it.

As an aside, I'm in the process of designing a custom DH-89 and am definitely thinking no line / dot is the way to go.

Eagle

Orr is a proponent of the Edel fitting system, which means getting the putter that you actually aim straight -- it is much more than a sightline - it's head shape, hosel, loft, lie, offset, as well as sightlines to refine your aim.

So it's all about getting you to aim where you think you are aiming.

And that means getting custom fit for aim, and then all other elements, such headweight,mshaft, counterbalancing, grip, etc.

Sightlines usually move your aim to the right; a sight dot? I think golfers want to know the sweet spot.

Is this right that a sightline moves your aim to the right vs naked?

From what I was told and experienced, the sightline has one aim to the left. Many aim right without the sightline, and the line moves them left. More lines ... more left. It is a refinement.

So funny Bc I had an Edel fitting an aimed the naked putter way left, and they fit me into a single flange line for straight aim! Guess everyone is different.


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#146 MrWolf

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:29 AM

View Postdoglover72, on 19 June 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

So funny Bc I had an Edel fitting an aimed the naked putter way left, and they fit me into a single flange line for straight aim! Guess everyone is different.

I think that's the point and why people need to go for a fitting. There are no hard and fast rules that dictate a player will aim any club in any particular way. Whilst I couldn't aim a putter with any sort of sight line or offset for sh!t, other people might benefit massively from one or both of those things.
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#147 SwingMan

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 10:49 AM

View Postdoglover72, on 19 June 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

View Postdoglover72, on 18 June 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

View PostSwingMan, on 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostWolfWRX, on 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

I used to own a Ping Anser F Ltd Edition which had no sight line or sight dot. I putted great with that putter and therefore did the stupid thing and sold it. Anyway, it got me thinking about alignment aids on putters.

I know there is a school of thought that no alignment aid on a putter actually improves aim. Can anyone expand on this? I believe David Orr is a proponent of this view, but I couldn't find a great deal more on it.

As an aside, I'm in the process of designing a custom DH-89 and am definitely thinking no line / dot is the way to go.

Eagle

Orr is a proponent of the Edel fitting system, which means getting the putter that you actually aim straight -- it is much more than a sightline - it's head shape, hosel, loft, lie, offset, as well as sightlines to refine your aim.

So it's all about getting you to aim where you think you are aiming.

And that means getting custom fit for aim, and then all other elements, such headweight,mshaft, counterbalancing, grip, etc.

Sightlines usually move your aim to the right; a sight dot? I think golfers want to know the sweet spot.

Is this right that a sightline moves your aim to the right vs naked?

From what I was told and experienced, the sightline has one aim to the left. Many aim right without the sightline, and the line moves them left. More lines ... more left. It is a refinement.

So funny Bc I had an Edel fitting an aimed the naked putter way left, and they fit me into a single flange line for straight aim! Guess everyone is different.

Also depends on the hosel and other factors - it is a combo of things - you start with the shape, then hosel etc. Sightlines refine aim.

I aim center shafted blades to the left, a heel shafted blade left and right, and tend to aim a mallet more neutral - but the hosel can throw it off.

Edited by SwingMan, 19 June 2017 - 10:50 AM.

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#148 getitdaily

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 11:36 AM

View Postbargolf, on 27 February 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

As an update to the study. We documented different combinations of lines on the putter and lines on the ball and then ranked their ability to aim.


1. Line on the ball no line on the putter. Most accurate.
2. No line on the ball - No line on the putter.
3. Line on the putter - No line on the ball. ( This is the most common preference and the results varied as to placement of sight aids)
4. Line on the ball-Line on the putter. As we used an average and this was last as it had the widest discrepancy.  Good aim was good but bad was really bad. Continuous line on the putter to the ball worked pretty well. But if you were not able to connect the line on the putter to the ball, as with a line in the cavity, it was problematic for many.

Even though the data sample was big enough, this is offered NOT to use as a judgement for yourself as to best or worse method, but as a guideline to check what works for you.

i would also offer that the "line on putter players" spent less time setting up. They tended to point the line at the ball, rather than to the target. As we did not dictate method so it is entirely possible that laziness was the issue and dramatically skewed the results.

Thoughts about 2ball alignment and this general thread?

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#149 HP12

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:15 PM

The Golf Galaxy closest to me offers an Edel putter fitting? Anyone tried it thru them? Should I go somewhere else to do it? Interested to see what sight line or naked fits me best. Used to putt with flange line, last two years tried sight line on top and like that better. Putted well with TM Spider with no line, just couldn't get used to the feel.

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#150 MrWolf

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 06:40 AM

View PostHP12, on 23 August 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

The Golf Galaxy closest to me offers an Edel putter fitting? Anyone tried it thru them? Should I go somewhere else to do it? Interested to see what sight line or naked fits me best. Used to putt with flange line, last two years tried sight line on top and like that better. Putted well with TM Spider with no line, just couldn't get used to the feel.

I would highly recommend a fitting. There is nothing like properly knowing what your aiming tendencies are and what to look for when buying a putter, including head shape and alignment. Otherwise it's just guesswork.

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