[title]

on the par 5 where he pulled his second shot into the tree he came to rest on pine straw. in taking his stance on the pine straw, he dug his feet through the straw onto dirt. isnt this "building a stance"? i know when the u.s. open was at pinehurst announcers made a big deal about this.

[lebanontngolfer]

No, it is not considered to be "building a stance." Similar to digging your feet into the sand in a bunker.

[title]

rule 13 - 2 (pg. 45) "a player must not improve or be allowed to improve ... the area of his intended stance ... by creating or eliminating irregularities of surface"

13 -3 "a player is entitled to place his feet firmly in taking his stance, but he must not build a stance."

kevin na built a stance by clearing away pine straw to access a firmer stance.

DQ!

[title]

lebanontngolfer, on May 9 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

No, it is not considered to be "building a stance." Similar to digging your feet into the sand in a bunker.

sand into sand is fine. na went from pine straw to dirt.

[yoonie]

I think the reason they use "building" instead of creating or any other language is that it implies that a player is going out of his way to artificially create a new surface upon which he can build his stance to play from. For example, in a bunker, you could "build" a stance when the ball is above your feet by moving sand until you even out the lie. Simply digging down is part of the golf swing, and therefore, unlikely to be considered "building"- hence the language.

[title]

na did more than just dig down like in a bunker. he cleary was moving pine straw away from underneath his feet.

[Pure745]

Just saw that Angel Cabrera called in the rules official to complain about Na's slow play.. said its "impossible" to play w/ him

[lebanontngolfer]

You have the right to gain firm footing, which allows for you to "dig" your shoes into the straw even if you get to the dirt. He could have moved all the straw out of the way to get to the dirt just as you can move sticks, boulders, small animals, etc. as long as they were movable and not stuck in the ground. Only reason you don't do that in the straw is it increases the risk of the ball moving.

But, as yoonie correctly pointed out, you can't move the straw (or sand in a bunker) around to establish a footing (i.e. pile it up).

[DLiver]

Pine needles are considered loose impediments. You can remove all of them from the area of your shot as long as you do not move you ball in the process. It doesn't matter whether you remove pine needles with your hands or your feet, you are allowed to remove them.

[1641bill]

I live in Orlando and the courses in Florida use pine needles everywhere. If you don't dig in you can literally fall on your face. Kevin Na did absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. I don't really see what all the fuss is about, unless the ball was moved in his address.No different than digging in while in a bunker.

[ZonaHooker]

Pure745, on May 9 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

Just saw that Angel Cabrera called in the rules official to complain about Na's slow play.. said its "impossible" to play w/ him

LoL. Did he? Thats hilarious. I wonder how fast he can finish a round of 18 if there weren't people in front of him. He just steps right up and swings away, no fidgeting, thinking or anything else that might take up time.

[creeder06]

i concur.

[Supersteel]

DLiver, on May 9 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

Pine needles are considered loose impediments. You can remove all of them from the area of your shot as long as you do not move you ball in the process. It doesn't matter whether you remove pine needles with your hands or your feet, you are allowed to remove them.

Winner!

[caller]

Tiger did the same thing on the first day
No one questioned about it

[poppyhillsguy]

1641bill, on May 9 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

I live in Orlando and the courses in Florida use pine needles everywhere. If you don't dig in you can literally fall on your face.

I found another reason to hate golf in Florida.

[RangerEsq.]

Pure745, on May 9 2009, 02:36 PM, said:

Just saw that Angel Cabrera called in the rules official to complain about Na's slow play.. said its "impossible" to play w/ him

Well Cabrera's impatient anyways, he's always played quick and now that he's quit smoking, he'll complain about everything, he can't help it!

[Pure745]

haha.. it was just really funny to watch after that.. their body language.. and Na hitting a plethora of just plain terrible shots (i mean TERRIBLE), then taking 5 minutes or more to hit each one after that..

I've always though Na was a d*ckhead after hearing the way he was talking to some of the media during a tourney overseas.. very rude and unprofessional

[hogans71]

RangerEsq., on May 9 2009, 09:49 PM, said:

Pure745, on May 9 2009, 02:36 PM, said:

Just saw that Angel Cabrera called in the rules official to complain about Na's slow play.. said its "impossible" to play w/ him

Well Cabrera's impatient anyways, he's always played quick and now that he's quit smoking, he'll complain about everything, he can't help it!

That's crap- Na was brutal.
Then to suggest it has something to do with smoking- a habit AG gave up many moons ago is pathetic. KN was in his own kitchen and would have taken 7 hours to play if allowed. No one was impatient. Just an unacceptable pace of play...

[TRC79]

hogans71, on May 10 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

RangerEsq., on May 9 2009, 09:49 PM, said:

Pure745, on May 9 2009, 02:36 PM, said:

Just saw that Angel Cabrera called in the rules official to complain about Na's slow play.. said its "impossible" to play w/ him

Well Cabrera's impatient anyways, he's always played quick and now that he's quit smoking, he'll complain about everything, he can't help it!

That's crap- Na was brutal.
Then to suggest it has something to do with smoking- a habit AG gave up many moons ago is pathetic. KN was in his own kitchen and would have taken 7 hours to play if allowed. No one was impatient. Just an unacceptable pace of play...

I was standing behind the green on 11 when Na and Cabrera played. I couldn't here what was being said but this was what i perceived to happen. Cabrera and his caddy were standing just off the front right of the green looking back at Na waiting for him to play his 3rd. They stood there for a minute or so just staring at Na. Then they got word that Na wanted them to move away from the green. Cabrera and his caddy moved to the side and Na hit his shot landing in right near where Cabrera had been. Dottie Pepper had moved into the area and she almost got whacked. Cabrera goes on to make a 20 or so foot birdie putt. Na is lining up his par putt and he calls Cabrera over to ask him a spot in his line is a ball mark and if he can repair it. Cabrera shakes his head no and walks away. Cabrera looks away as Na misses his par putt.

I may have missed a few things and again could not hear there conversations. Not making any judgement on either of the two just giving my perspective of what i saw.

[raytracer]

TRC79, on May 10 2009, 02:36 AM, said:

hogans71, on May 10 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

RangerEsq., on May 9 2009, 09:49 PM, said:

Pure745, on May 9 2009, 02:36 PM, said:

Just saw that Angel Cabrera called in the rules official to complain about Na's slow play.. said its "impossible" to play w/ him

Well Cabrera's impatient anyways, he's always played quick and now that he's quit smoking, he'll complain about everything, he can't help it!

That's crap- Na was brutal.
Then to suggest it has something to do with smoking- a habit AG gave up many moons ago is pathetic. KN was in his own kitchen and would have taken 7 hours to play if allowed. No one was impatient. Just an unacceptable pace of play...

I was standing behind the green on 11 when Na and Cabrera played. I couldn't here what was being said but this was what i perceived to happen. Cabrera and his caddy were standing just off the front right of the green looking back at Na waiting for him to play his 3rd. They stood there for a minute or so just staring at Na. Then they got word that Na wanted them to move away from the green. Cabrera and his caddy moved to the side and Na hit his shot landing in right near where Cabrera had been. Dottie Pepper had moved into the area and she almost got whacked. Cabrera goes on to make a 20 or so foot birdie putt. Na is lining up his par putt and he calls Cabrera over to ask him a spot in his line is a ball mark and if he can repair it. Cabrera shakes his head no and walks away. Cabrera looks away as Na misses his par putt.

I may have missed a few things and again could not hear there conversations. Not making any judgement on either of the two just giving my perspective of what i saw.

I followed this group - it really started on the first green. You could tell AC was perturbed right away by KN's routine and pace.

[jimbonecrusher]

title, on May 9 2009, 04:28 PM, said:

rule 13 - 2 (pg. 45) "a player must not improve or be allowed to improve ... the area of his intended stance ... by creating or eliminating irregularities of surface"

13 -3 "a player is entitled to place his feet firmly in taking his stance, but he must not build a stance."

kevin na built a stance by clearing away pine straw to access a firmer stance.

DQ!

It isn't your tournament and you are not the rules officials so let it rest.

It is quite embarassing that people on this forum think they are the rules police and think they can dictate how the rules officials should rule on everything.

Focus on your own games instead of crying foul on others.

[HeadonaStick]

jimbonecrusher, on May 10 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

title, on May 9 2009, 04:28 PM, said:

rule 13 - 2 (pg. 45) "a player must not improve or be allowed to improve ... the area of his intended stance ... by creating or eliminating irregularities of surface"

13 -3 "a player is entitled to place his feet firmly in taking his stance, but he must not build a stance."

kevin na built a stance by clearing away pine straw to access a firmer stance.

DQ!

It isn't your tournament and you are not the rules officials so let it rest.

It is quite embarassing that people on this forum think they are the rules police and think they can dictate how the rules officials should rule on everything.

Focus on your own games instead of crying foul on others.

Not sure why you'd be embarrassed - it has nothing to do with you.

Also, I think he was just asking a question and getting clarification. I find rules threads like this very, very valuable to my game and understanding of the rules.

[Bobbers]

OP-if you've taken a position and won't be swayed from it by others offering their point of view, then why post? Better to contact the PGA and lodge a complaint, as I'm sure a few hundred other people did.

As others have pointed out, he did not build a stance. Were any of us to find ourselves in a similar situation, I suspect that out of a sense of safety and surety of stance we'd do exactly what Kevin did. I sincerely doubt that he moved enough "stuff" to get down to bare earth, he merely wanted to anchor himself to be able to safely execute a shot.
Too, there's the idea that by lowering his feet in relation to the ball that he actually created a more difficult shot for himself.

Just a few thoughts.

[mtsmith]

yep, definately not a rules infraction.

OP- Don't you think Tiger would have been DQ'd atleast 15 or 20 maybe even 30 times this week already if it was a rules break? Get the point?

[caller]

As long as officials didn't penalize him, I guess what he did was ok

[golfismygame]

caller, on May 10 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

As long as officials didn't penalize him, I guess what he did was ok

It was not OK because he wasn't penalized - it was OK because it's allowed under the Rules.
Na could even have removed pine needles away behind his ball if he wanted it be be "tee'd" but that would have been a little dangerous; the ball could have moved.

[caller]

golfismygame, on May 11 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

caller, on May 10 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

As long as officials didn't penalize him, I guess what he did was ok

It was not OK because he wasn't penalized - it was OK because it's allowed under the Rules.
Na could even have removed pine needles away behind his ball if he wanted it be be "tee'd" but that would have been a little dangerous; the ball could have moved.

I agree.