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In "Five Lesson" Hogan explains that at impact the left wrist must start to supinate. He really donīt explain how to get the bowed left wrist if he starts from a cupped wrist at the top.
I think this maybe one of the biggest points about his so called secret.
Looking at the drawing from the book: you can see how he goes from a cupped wrist to a bowed wrist -not a flat wrist- getting the raised wristbone closer to the target than his left hand during impact. He seems to roll his left hand into the ball to get his knuckles to point toward the ground.
I don't believe he had a cupped wrist at the top. If you look at the other images in his book - especially the one regarding the backswing - you will see a rather flat wrist at the top. He gets to supination by starting the downswing with his lower body - especially the hips - and very little hand "action". At least, that is how I interpret this particular secret. I believe his real secret was "in the dirt", though.
You CAN NOT analyze Hogan without truly underrstanding he did not make the same swing all the time. At least not post accident.........I see a lot of ballflight combinations.
Sometimes he cupped. Sometimes he did not.
Sometimes he turned down the knuckles. Sometimes he did not.........as much.
He had different hand paths, differents angles of attack, different angles of approach.
He could re-orient his plane when he wanted to.
But, the fundamentals..................the way he used his body, pivot, hips, coil, transition, etc....well that he had down cold and that is what made his swing so repeatable. I would assume that is why he stressed to pay attention to the body and how it works so much in 5 Lessons.
So, I suggest to consider all this before trying to lock Hogan down into ONE FREAKING SWING. The fundamentals........sure.........they're wonderful. Everything else is genius and really advanced stuff, IMOP.
Hogan had control of the clubface in his hands. He could roll into the ball as hard as he wanted to. And he could have his hands positioned a certain way that no matter how hard he rolled it would not close TOO FAST. Therefore, you get to hit hard with both hands, keep pressure on the shaft, put a ton of pressure on the ball, and under pressure................you mean I get to death sqeeze the club and swing as hard as I want? Cool.
You CAN NOT analyze Hogan without truly underrstanding he did not make the same swing all the time. At least not post accident.........I see a lot of ballflight combinations.
Sometimes he cupped. Sometimes he did not.
Sometimes he turned down the knuckles. Sometimes he did not.........as much.
He had different hand paths, differents angles of attack, different angles of approach.
He could re-orient his plane when he wanted to.
But, the fundamentals..................the way he used his body, pivot, hips, coil, transition, etc....well that he had down cold and that is what made his swing so repeatable. I would assume that is why he stressed to pay attention to the body and how it works so much in 5 Lessons.
So, I suggest to consider all this before trying to lock Hogan down into ONE FREAKING SWING. The fundamentals........sure.........they're wonderful. Everything else is genius and really advanced stuff, IMOP.
Hogan had control of the clubface in his hands. He could roll into the ball as hard as he wanted to. And he could have his hands positioned a certain way that no matter how hard he rolled it would not close TOO FAST. Therefore, you get to hit hard with both hands, keep pressure on the shaft, put a ton of pressure on the ball, and under pressure................you mean I get to death sqeeze the club and swing as hard as I want? Cool.
any1 read the latest golf digest article : 10 Rules for hitting all the shots by Lee Trevino ?
absolutely brilliant stuff, even talks about Hogan.
"..What made Ben great was his slightly weak grip, both hands
rotated counterclockwise so the "Vs" formed by his thumbs and forefingers pointed at his right ear at address.
Shotmaking-wise, it gave him tremendous control. To draw the ball, he just released the club a little more. To hit it
straight, he released a little less, and to fade it, he didn't do anything. You can play good golf with a strong grip;
Paul Azinger, David Duval and I are proof of that. But none of us is known for drawing the ball. When we tried, we
hit too many duck hooks."
My personal view (i'd like to hear comments) on the supination deal is that it gets from cupped to supinated by having the hands kept infront of and insync with a properly rotating core. I suspect a heavier club would also aid this - head of the club dropping naturally and aiding uncupping.
Also has to do with his weaker grip. The stronger your grip and the more your go from a flat write to supination, the more your clubface will be closed. so for a weak grip to supinate (slightly), it might result in a square face still. i suspect his iron setup at address might have some influence. With his left forearm rotation and cup + weak grip, he can release hard on the downswing without fearing the hand over-supinates (like in a crossover release) causing too much face closure.
Hogan had control of the clubface in his hands. He could roll into the ball as hard as he wanted to. And he could have his hands positioned a certain way that no matter how hard he rolled it would not close TOO FAST. Therefore, you get to hit hard with both hands, keep pressure on the shaft, put a ton of pressure on the ball, and under pressure................you mean I get to death sqeeze the club and swing as hard as I want? Cool.
I agree. This exactly what Hogan states about supination in his book. In the Life Magazine article whe he tells his secret he talks about three parts: a weak grip, pronating in the backswing and cupping the wrist at the top (as bovi suggested before...) as the parts of his secret. But, Do you think thatīs all about the complete sequence? or we are missing any further move to get the bowed left wrist.
He stated he could roll into the ball as hard as he wanted to without getting a close clubface. How?. Is it a consecuence of the three parts commented or there is any further move?
He stated he could roll into the ball as hard as he wanted to without getting a close clubface. How?. Is it a consecuence of the three parts commented or there is any further move?
If your left arm hasn't rolled at that point and you still have flex in your left leg....supination will aim the clubface right and de-loft it. Making it impossible to hit the ball left.
You don't have to make the left wrist supinate during the swing. The left wrist will transition into that position naturally if you do a couple of things correctly from the top, whether you have a cupped wrist or not.
The primary move is just the old dropping the club into the slot move. Watch a swingvision clip of Sergio for an exaggerated view of how holding off the swing from the top produces the bowing. Most, but not all, top notch ball strikers make a move from the top that drops the club lower but still parallel at the very beginning of the down swing. They do this by beginning to shift their weight left without actually starting the club downward, which causes the right elbow to work inside the left elbow. This makes the right wrist almost almost completely pronated for most people, if it wasn't already in that position at the top (the more cupped your left wrist is at the top, the less pronated the right one is). This happens fairly naturally if you can keep your left hand from death gripping the club on the way down, like many higher handicappers do.
I remember some great "down the line" photos of Nicklaus' swing sequence that shows this position midway through the downswing, and I'm sure that any of the Golf Digest swing sequences show the same thing for many players.
any1 read the latest golf digest article : 10 Rules for hitting all the shots by Lee Trevino ?
absolutely brilliant stuff, even talks about Hogan.
"..What made Ben great was his slightly weak grip, both hands
rotated counterclockwise so the "Vs" formed by his thumbs and forefingers pointed at his right ear at address.
Shotmaking-wise, it gave him tremendous control. To draw the ball, he just released the club a little more. To hit it
straight, he released a little less, and to fade it, he didn't do anything. You can play good golf with a strong grip;
Paul Azinger, David Duval and I are proof of that. But none of us is known for drawing the ball. When we tried, we
hit too many duck hooks."
My personal view (i'd like to hear comments) on the supination deal is that it gets from cupped to supinated by having the hands kept infront of and insync with a properly rotating core. I suspect a heavier club would also aid this - head of the club dropping naturally and aiding uncupping.
Also has to do with his weaker grip. The stronger your grip and the more your go from a flat write to supination, the more your clubface will be closed. so for a weak grip to supinate (slightly), it might result in a square face still. i suspect his iron setup at address might have some influence. With his left forearm rotation and cup + weak grip, he can release hard on the downswing without fearing the hand over-supinates (like in a crossover release) causing too much face closure.
I agree.
But I still have never seen an actual picture of his wrist bowed at impact, post impact a maybe slightly, at impact never. Not saying that it didnt happen, just never saw proof of it. You guys are debating a drawing of what Hogan felt, which we all know is not necessarily real.
But I still have never seen an actual picture of his wrist bowed at impact, post impact a maybe slightly, at impact never. Not saying that it didnt happen, just never saw proof of it. You guys are debating a drawing of what Hogan felt, which we all know is not necessarily real.
Footage is out there. You have to know what you're looking at. Watch the finish or the way the club exits and finishes. Low trajectory. Look for a short finish. Look for more arm extension/less left arm connection after impact......pivot still being of influence. Look for him burning the ball in there. Watch the hand path. Look for some wedge shots for probable guarantees. Then go and try it. It's one way to do it. You can knuckle down to burn a ball in low. Pretty good when you want to throw drawing dart, IMOP. Trap it kind of. Careful with the spin.
This guy was a shotmaker. We don't get to see many shotmakers anymore. Probably why it has fallen out of the mainstream. Maybe the game today doesn't require it as much. I'm sure we could have a long discussion on that as well. It sure is a fun way to play the game and probably what separated the greats when courses demanded premium ballstriking. Requires practice and a lot of it to have the confidence to shape any ball the way the hole asks when the pressure is on your back.
I found this into a forum ( http://www.freegolfi...x...57&mpage=15 ). It seem that supination is one of the most important parts at impact. I write it down for the historical reference to Hogan:
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A teacher I go to once in a while, Buck Mayher told me he had a chance to meet Hogan. He asked Hogan what was the most important part of the swing. Hogan asked if he had read his "Five Fundamentals" book. Buck said yes. Hogan said look on page 108-109 that showed a detailed illustration of supination. As we all know, Hogan struggled with the "lefts" this was his way of controlling it. Buck was the ONLY teacher who has ever mentioned this to me.
To teach me how to supinate, he took a pitching wedge and stuck a cut off shaft with a grip on it into the butt of the PW. The extra grip and shaft stick out about the length of the grip plus a couple of inches. Anyway, he had me set up with the extension sticking out under my left arm. When I took my "normal" swing, I hit myself is the ribs with the extension BEFORE the club head reached the ball. Then Buck showed me how to supinate. It took a while, but once I got the hang of it, it wasn't hitting myself in the side anymore. Again, if you do this slowly, you will see that by turning your left knuckle under, the shaft will square up to the target line, the club face will square up and you will de-loft the club
i'm thinking of looking at that illustration in 2 parts and possibly 2 different ways. Which i believe is an issue because hogan does not illustrate where his core, body, right hand & ball are in relation to these 6 left hand positions.
A) before impact and after impact
supinate before impact but post impact less forearm/hand controlled supination for a straight /stock shot.
B) hands turning over (faster than core) vs hands looking like they turn over but actually having same relation with the core (V's of grip still pointing as they were at address)
if you take your address and keep the grip in the same relation to the centre of your chest as you turn from impact into the follow through - a face on view your hands would look like they have supinated
The latter is to me how hogan gets that particular look 2 feet past impact with the blade in a 45* angle to target (seemingly square to swing arc - angled hinge (?))
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As we all know, Hogan struggled with the "lefts" this was his way of controlling it
i don't see how supination guards against the "lefts" if anything it closes the clubface & delofts. is that bringing in possibility of the duck hook? i get a straight hook when i supinate aggressively.
It is the cupping via forearm rotation that prevents the lefts.
As always my thoughts are shared to receive correction or other viewpoints
I actually just posted about this in the swing forum earlier today. I've recently (finally) figured out my swing after a ton of changes, and have been working on releasing the right side as fully and completely as possible. Having dealt with hooks (or more pushes out of fear of hooking-pushes are playable) for a while, it took a lot of tinkering and experimenting, but it finally seems to be working.
As a side effect of the right sided release I've started to really feel the left wrist bowing through impact. However, it's completely reactionary rather than the active supination Hogan advocated. It seems as though with the left side clearing and the right side releasing out and into the ball the wrist has no choice but to supinate in reaction. Even though I don't conciously think about doing it, I can feel the soreness on the outside of my left forearm.
Could it be that the left wrist supinates simply to support the blow of the right hand/side? All my previous attempts to supinate actively have gone horribly awry.
One more thing that might be relevant- I feel like like i'm almost trying to come above the backswing plane by applying force through pp3, though my divots and ball flight show I'm clearly not coming OTT. I might be lagging the club onto plane which would explain help the bowing. I also have a neutral grip.
I thought the ideal way of picturing the action was mentioned in 5 lessons anyway?
He clearly says that Jimmy Damaret was the best at this and it looked like he was lashing the ball with the back of his left hand.
Imagine your giving someone a back-hander and you can't go wrong.
I think you are right.This is what Hogan wrote in his book. The feeling is LASHING down the ball. Hogan explains that Jimmy Demaret was a master in doint that. Does anybody know if Demaret has any book explaining that?
Look the next picture from "Five Lessons" . Hogan clearly goes from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist. He said that this stage was like the "old two hand pass in basketball"
His Secret seems to be an automatic move that gave him consistency and power. It eliminated timing issues, just open the face as far as possible, then close it as hard as possible. It gave him the green light to go at the ball as hard as he wanted. Imagine opening a door as far as it will go, then slamming it shut as hard as you can. That's easier and more consistent than trying to open the door partially, then trying to close it at just the right speed.
From the Foreword of Five Lessons (written in 1985 by Nick Seitz):
"Most people are too upright because they disconnect the arms from the body. My left arm swung right across my chest in the downswing, and was the strongest part of my downswing. Itīs almost impossible to get your body out of position and come back to the ball badly. The idea is to rotate the club with left arm. Poor players and even some tour players try to do it with the right hand. You have to do it with the left arm.
.....
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
This video is a very good one ! I believe what Mike tries to explain there is a secret of bringing automatism for maintaining lag and a powerful delivery of the clubhead to the ball. I like those expressions (correct me if I heard wrong English words here) - low and high leverage positions. I agree 100% with it - a low leverage being held long thanks to the cupped wrist simply must be unintentionally changed into a high leverage position because of physics.
It touches a very similar issue that was discussed earlier in the thread "The Secret of the Cupped Wrist", although the main discussion concerned the position of the clubface and common myths:
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
I think / feel that really strong left hand grip pressure helps...last 3 fingers only etc...as hard as I can seems to do no harm when it comes to bowed at impact
And is apparently what Mike Cortson was taught by John Sclee:-
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=r8CqdKAR4f4
Read the comments section for the description...the video is after he had recovered from cancer and stroke so there may be reasons why ut doesn't look like Hogan
Athough... not much bow in the slo-mo drill here...
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
Wow, it took me like 5 minutes to realize it but that's one of the keys that has helped transofrm my golf swing. I don't think of it so much as rotation but rather applying force through pp3 trying to release as hard as I can while coming over plane. It's the "over plane" feeling that put me on top of the shaft and helped the club rotate automatically, putting me in a bowed position.
Every time I tried to "rotate" like Hogan said I was only using my hands, which didn't put my right hip and right shoulder in the correct positions. Just another swing thought to try, for people out there.
I was hung up on active versus passive hands partly because I wasn't getting complete clarity from 5 Lessons. In it Hogan indicates not to think of anything on the downswing after the hips have initiated the turn other than hitting the ball, and in other parts he emphasizes body motivating arms and hands doing nothing but hanging on; YET he commits several pages to what the hands should be doing during impact in great detail! So from that it could have been argued either way what he wanted.
The so-called "Coleman video" tipped the balance for me in favor of "educated hands." In it he's demonstrating how the right hand pressure point works thru impact. Not specifically how the cup turns into bow, but because he didn't qualify that part by saying "this will happen automatically as a function of ...." I take it to mean "educated" hands -- either of them -- are permissable per Hogan.
Due in part to this conclusion I've been looking into TGM-inspired analysis given their focus on flat/bent leading wrist and right hand pressure point.
I also agree with Dariusz that Sevam1 seemed to be on to an analytically powerful observation when he described Hogan's low versus high-leverage wrist positions.
Well, he does say that you should hit the ball as hard as possible with both hands, which always struck me as distinct endorsement of active hands, despite what everyone's been saying about passive hands and rotational swings.
I wonder why Hogan paired with him so often in two man's.
Sevam1
Interesting thread.
From where I'm standing, if Hogan didn't do anything with his hands and arms, why would he talk about the fact that once he's sorted his grip and swing it didn't matter how hard he rolled or turned his wrists, he couldn't hook it. Unless this was just a little experiment of his, I can't see him saying it unless he used his hands and arms to hit the ball.
I think that's all he meant by those statements: that his anti-hook move was so strong that even if he tried to purposely hit one, the ball still wouldn't hook. Some have mistook that to mean he purposely pronated from the top of the backswing, and I personally think nothing could be further from the truth. He wasn't saying this is what he did, he was saying that even if he did something that bad, he still wouldn't hook it.
I wonder why Hogan paired with him so often in two man's.
Sevam1
I read somewhere (if I remember correctly in one of Penick's books) that Demaret had a very strong and firm wrists/hands that he developed by practicing very low trajectory shots that he regarded as best antidotum for a very windy home course he had played before.
It would be difficult for an average man to have such a post-impact position - in fact, his wrists had to fight against kinetic chain release at impact.
I finish reading the newest book on Hogan a few weeks ago and was suprised how close it was to a lot of what 5 Lessons was about. The reason I mention this is because when I noticed this post about the bowed wrist I thought it was about the book I am refering too The One Plane Cut. There is mention in the book about the right wrist angle increasing through out the downswing, this in turn causes the left to bow. Very interesting concept and is one that makes sense as the book explains how this creates lag and control of the club. I have read some other books as well and of course the youtube videos of different teachers that talk about the left wrist bow as a forced move. I personaly don't thing Hogan tried to use the left wrist and I could be very wrong about that as well.
I wonder why Hogan paired with him so often in two man's.
Sevam1
From Five Lessons page 104: " Every good golfer supinates his left wrist. It is a 'must'. Of all the players Iīve seen, Jimmy Demaret undoubtedly emphasizes this action the most. You canīt supinate the left wrist more pronouncedly than Jimmy does. When you watch Demaret, you get the feeling that he is really lashing the ball with the back of his left hand. It goes a long way to explain Jimmyīs longevity as a first-class player..."
From page 93:" THE MAIN THING FOR THE NOVICE OR THE AVERAGE GOLFER IS TO KEEP ANY CONCIOUS HAND ACTION OUT OF THE SWING..."
Everything seems to be written into Five Lessons. It is cryptic. The key is "average golfer". Hogan doesnīt mention taking the hands out of the swing for great golfers -as he was-, so he can be suggesting some kind of hand action for advanced golf. Also note the italics in the word "concious"... . In fact, as Sevam1 has said, Hogan admired so much to Demaret because of his impact position. (BTW Great picture Sevam1. I am learning a lot with you!) From the picture, it seems that Hogan really called supination to the bowing of the wrist. Have anyone had the chance to read Demaretīs book "Golf Magazineīs Your Long Game"? If so, please tell us what he suggests at impact!! Maybe if Hogan took his secret to his grave we could find it into Demaretīs book. By now we can say that Sevam1 has given a big clue to find the impact move.
Maybe he considered leading with a raised left wrist bone, only pushing forward w/ the right hand pressure point equal to no conscious hand action? Maybe he considered conscious hand action as flipping / slapping or active rotation? Maybe he considered angle and lag retention as a guard against conscious action?
In any case, I think you hit on the real gaping hole in the book, which is not the "getting to the left side" as many have obsessed over. What could be more clear than "there needs to be enough lateral motion to shift the weight to the left side before the hips turn" paraphrase? Some may disagree this is sufficient, but it can't be argued he at least addressed it. Whereas the cup to bow transition move is never discussed.
This is not exactly bowing the left wrist. He is talking about rolling the wrists which is also quite important in a crossover release if you are a swinger (TGM terminology). For rolling the wrists these are quite good videos:
Althought I am not a complete expert rolling the wrists is not the exactly same as Hoganīs type of release by bowing the wrists. If you get a bowed wrist you donīt need to rotate as much the wrist prior to impact.
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
I find the above quoted video quite revealing/helpful.
I am relatively new to golf, haven't played much in the past, and haven't played for several years now and only just started taking lessons so that as I start to play regularly I actually learn properly.
Bought Hogan's 5 Lessons as it echoed what my teacher is telling me.. I like the principles, maybe I like that kind of method as I am a musician and study technique of movement as a matter of course to make the correct sound on my instrument..... Anyway......
This video seems to sum up for me (so far) the left wrist thing of supinating at impact after having a really wide open clubface at the top of swing, (cupped wrist), but only by keeping weight on the right leg and not sliding it all to the left by impact time.
I really didnt understand the supinating wrist, but this video helps by explaining some of the movement of the grip leading to the impact, along with the weight on right leg.
Cant explain much more than that, as I'm not an expert, and may contradict myself simply by not fully understanding my swing movements, BUT as I have no preconceptions about the golf swing I do think this video says a lot, the right way, about the supinating wrist.
It (the Secret?) had to do with the face of the club. ... I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."
If you keep your left wrist bowed-thereby maintaining your lag- the ball won't hook. You might yank it but it won't snap. Been working on this for a couple of years with varying levels of success. Subconsciously you think it will go left hard but it won't. Hard to trust it that is for sure.
Video my instructor shows me indicates that Hogan went from cupped at top to bowed almost immediately as his downswing started. Might be the result of the rapid change in direction he had, I don't know but makes some sense to me.
AltusBeliever, on 30 January 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:
If you keep your left wrist bowed-thereby maintaining your lag- the ball won't hook. You might yank it but it won't snap. Been working on this for a couple of years with varying levels of success. Subconsciously you think it will go left hard but it won't. Hard to trust it that is for sure.
Video my instructor shows me indicates that Hogan went from cupped at top to bowed almost immediately as his downswing started. Might be the result of the rapid change in direction he had, I don't know but makes some sense to me.
Unfortunately for your instuctor he's plain wrong. The last thing Hogan's supposed to do is to release the LH cup too early.
I was speaking of the cupped left wrist going to bowed-not the right. In my looking at it the left bows and the right cups and stays that way thru impact, thereby maintaining the lag.
In the video I have looked at you can see the face angle change from toe down (open/cupped) to square and the left wrist bowed, or at least it looks that way. I agree that the photo you post shows what appears to be a cupped left wrist well into the downswing which would mean he bows it (turns to knuckles under I guess) very quickly and in a short period of time. I would like to see the clubface and that would answer any debate.
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