[JD3]

yesterday near the end of his round -- i think it was 15 or 16 -- couples missed a shortish putt that wound up past the hole. then in disgust he walked up and while straddling what looked like the thru-line, swiped it in (i.e. couples was standing square to the hole on the opposite side of the ball, and reached across and knocked the ball in.)

i know it's a clear penalty to be straddling the line on a putt and thats why they stopped snead from using a croquet-style stroke. but does that also apply to the thru line?

[dwboston]

jduncanm3, on Apr 6 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

yesterday near the end of his round -- i think it was 15 or 16 -- couples missed a shortish putt that wound up past the hole. then in disgust he walked up and while straddling what looked like the thru-line, swiped it in (i.e. couples was standing square to the hole on the opposite side of the ball, and reached across and knocked the ball in.)

i know it's a clear penalty to be straddling the line on a putt and thats why they stopped snead from using a croquet-style stroke. but does that also apply to the thru line?

No - I believe that rule was clarified within the past couple of years to allow players to straddle the line for a tap-in putt so as not to disturb the line for their competitors.

[parmark]

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

[D'KRUSHER]

I noticed this too, but I have to think it was close but - nope he was fine... tie goes to the runner.

[Marrrk]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

wow. that was uncalled for.

[T-Gates]

I don't think the subject is out of line here, because everybody makes mistakes. Even 25+ year tour pros. When it happened, you could even hear Johnny Miller start to say something, then stop. (Which for him must have taken serious willpower) Personally I don't care, but it was an interesting observation. Nobody is calling Freddy a cheater. Take it easy.

There are plenty of cases of brain farts by pros. Just like Stadler putting a towel under his knees way back when. I don't think any less of Freddy wether it is a rules violation or not. It's just an observation.

[Michael_75]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

Hit a nerve?

[lshx0524]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 09:19 AM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

no it's people like YOU that give this forum a bad name. did you notice his question mark at the end of the post? chill out.

and what does his job have to do with it? are you a rules official for the PGA tour or something?

[cbdavis4]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 12:19 PM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

+ 1 for the uncalled for. The guy was asking a question about the thru line. Not making absurd accusations.

[Redman]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

No, it is guys like you who give us a bad name. Maybe actually read the post before you make such an absurb accusation to the poster because he was simply asking a question. I would love to know what you do for a living and how the hell anyone gets along with you.

[parmark]

I'm not out of line when I read a headline like this from someone who does not know what the heck they are talking about and I take exception to it. I do get upset when someone hiding behind a keyboard can make a statement accusing someone of cheating/lying/unethical conduct like this and throw it out there, without any recourse, right or wrong. (do I still beat my wife?) I think it makes everyone on here look like a jerk - me included - when you have to put up with idiots who think they know more than the pro's and officials on site.
Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying who takes a small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im actually in politics at a state capital on a senior staff, I see plenty of online crap that sometimes has a bit of truth to it, so if I am sensistive to postings that are half baked, forgive me. And I get along fine with my staff, client and media. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying. And I do take offense to the idiots headline.
Your turn.

[Philippe Bonfanti]

There is a newish rule that allows it for tap ins. good rule, needed to be changed to prevent players wasting time and marking 6 inch putts.

[JD3]

Ziophils, on Apr 6 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

There is a newish rule that allows it for tap ins. good rule, needed to be changed to prevent players wasting time and marking 6 inch putts.

how do they define "tap in?"

[Marrrk]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying takes one small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im in advertising, and I get along fine. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying.
Your turn.

what is your problem? the guy asked a simple question. this is a golf message board, not 60 Minutes.

[bradski]

I was watching that and heard Miller back off of saying something. i am glad they didn't because Fred had a great round and didn't need any controversy surrounding it.

[PhillyHack73]

Redman, on Apr 6 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

No, it is guys like you who give us a bad name. Maybe actually read the post before you make such an absurb accusation to the poster because he was simply asking a question. I would love to know what you do for a living and how the hell anyone gets along with you.

+1

[lshx0524]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying takes one small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im in advertising, and I get along fine. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying.
Your turn.

you should go to your manager and ask what the difference between a "statement" and a question defined by a ?, is. You are a walking advertisement for a dictionary.

[WhiteRabbit]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

I'm not out of line when I read a headline like this from someone who does not know what the heck they are talking about and I take exception to it. I do get upset when someone hiding behind a keyboard can make a statement accusing someone of cheating/lying/unethical conduct like this and throw it out there, without any recourse, right or wrong. (do I still beat my wife?) I think it makes everyone on here look like a jerk - me included - when you have to put up with idiots who think they know more than the pro's and officials on site.
Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying who takes a small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im actually in politics at a state capital on a senior staff, I see plenty of online crap that sometimes has a bit of truth to it, so if I am sensistive to postings that are half baked, forgive me. And I get along fine with my staff, client and media. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying. And I do take offense to the idiots headline.
Your turn.

Since Golf in general is a sport that is supposed to be policed by the competitors it is important they know the rules, all of them. And since many pros knowledge of the rules is adequate at best, asking if they made a mistake is very valid. Or should players received an advantage for ignorance. Also since this is a recent rule change it is more likely 25+ year veteran would make a mistake than a rookie. You are the one totally out of line.

[eddiea54]

Quote

Me, im actually in politics at a state capital on a senior staff, I see plenty of online crap that sometimes has a bit of truth to it, so if I am sensistive to postings that are half baked, forgive me. And I get along fine with my staff, client and media. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying. And I do take offense to the idiots headline.
Your turn.

Man, I feel sorry for those people. are you ok in the head?

[ZBigStick]

dwboston, on Apr 6 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

jduncanm3, on Apr 6 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

yesterday near the end of his round -- i think it was 15 or 16 -- couples missed a shortish putt that wound up past the hole. then in disgust he walked up and while straddling what looked like the thru-line, swiped it in (i.e. couples was standing square to the hole on the opposite side of the ball, and reached across and knocked the ball in.)

i know it's a clear penalty to be straddling the line on a putt and thats why they stopped snead from using a croquet-style stroke. but does that also apply to the thru line?

No - I believe that rule was clarified within the past couple of years to allow players to straddle the line for a tap-in putt so as not to disturb the line for their competitors.

+1

[lshx0524]

Marrrk, on Apr 6 2009, 09:56 AM, said:

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying takes one small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im in advertising, and I get along fine. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying.
Your turn.

what is your problem? the guy asked a simple question. this is a golf message board, not 60 Minutes.

LOL HOW DO YOU GO FROM ADVERTISING TO POLITICS AT A STATE CAPITOL IN MINUTES? PLEASE TEACH ME.

[jdhb]

"yesterday near the end of his round -- i think it was 15 or 16 -- couples missed a shortish putt that wound up past the hole. then in disgust he walked up and while straddling what looked like the thru-line, swiped it in (i.e. couples was standing square to the hole on the opposite side of the ball, and reached across and knocked the ball in.)"

There is no penalty for standing on the opposite side of the hole, astride or not. The line of the putt ends at the hole.

[lshx0524]

lol lying about job, is that not in your "absurd, half a** statement" category?

what happened to the replies?

[parmark]

Give it to me - I'll take it. If you feel it's totally acceptable to sit back and call someone a liar or cheat without having all the facts - I guess that's what keeps this thing we call the internet such a key component of today's world

I think my issue here is more with the headline that they felt was appropriate. I just wouldn't call anyone, including a respected PGA Pro - a cheater. And that's what I thought I read the first time I saw this post.

All I'm saying is before I post a headline accusing or questioning anyone, pro or schmoe - of lying or cheating - I'd make damn sure I know the rules before I make accusations or post a headline/blurb questioning someone's integrity. That's how I read this. If I'm the odd ball here - I'll be the first to admit as much.

Perhaps if they didn't post a headline questioning a PGA Pro's conduct , unless it's John Daly, maybe I wouldn't care. But I think it does appear a bit small minded.

[frozen_rope]

Actually, professional players as well as officials make rules violation mistakes all the time.
It's perfectly fine, and encouraged, for anyone watching play to question whether a player violated a Rule of Golf.
That includes playing partners, caddies, spectators in the gallery, fans watching at home on television etc.... It's part of the game.
If no Rule was broken then the outcome is no no penalty and no harm done. If there was a Rule broken then the player and, or, official is glad to learn about it.

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

I'm not out of line when I read a headline like this from someone who does not know what the heck they are talking about and I take exception to it. I do get upset when someone hiding behind a keyboard can make a statement accusing someone of cheating/lying/unethical conduct like this and throw it out there, without any recourse, right or wrong. (do I still beat my wife?) I think it makes everyone on here look like a jerk - me included - when you have to put up with idiots who think they know more than the pro's and officials on site.
Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying who takes a small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im actually in politics at a state capital on a senior staff, I see plenty of online crap that sometimes has a bit of truth to it, so if I am sensistive to postings that are half baked, forgive me. And I get along fine with my staff, client and media. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying. And I do take offense to the idiots headline.
Your turn.

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Guys like you give us all a bad name. Relax. And look again and get your facts straight before you make such an absurb accusation about a pro who's only been playing for 25+ years and just MIGHT know the rules too.
It's a freaking game for pete's sake. Try to remember that. Love to hear what a guy like this does for a living.

Relax Fred.

In fact, most tour players DON'T know the rules, that is why they rely on the officials. If they do exactly as the official says, then they cannot be held accountable. In some situations, it might be better to always get a ruling, rather than think you KNOW that massive little rule book.

[Marrrk]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Me, im actually in politics at a state capital on a senior staff

well, if there was any question left about why politics is so screwed up, it's been answered now.

[jdhb]

jdhb, on Apr 6 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

"yesterday near the end of his round -- i think it was 15 or 16 -- couples missed a shortish putt that wound up past the hole. then in disgust he walked up and while straddling what looked like the thru-line, swiped it in (i.e. couples was standing square to the hole on the opposite side of the ball, and reached across and knocked the ball in.)"

There is no penalty for standing on the opposite side of the hole, astride or not. The line of the putt ends at the hole.

I've had more than a few people tell me that standing on the opposite side of the hole and popping the ball in is a penalty. It's one of the bigger misconceptions regarding the rules that this is a penalty.

[JD3]

jdhb, on Apr 6 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

There is no penalty for standing on the opposite side of the hole, astride or not. The line of the putt ends at the hole.

LOL. cure for the yips?

[jdhb]

jduncanm3, on Apr 6 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

jdhb, on Apr 6 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

There is no penalty for standing on the opposite side of the hole, astride or not. The line of the putt ends at the hole.

LOL. cure for the yips?

It's good for the yips, but you run the risk of stubbing the putter and not hitting the ball at all, still counts as a stroke. I've seen Calc do it, Hale Irwin has done it. That's why you don't see it too often on the tour.

[Eagle006]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 06:23 PM, said:

Give it to me - I'll take it. If you feel it's totally acceptable to sit back and call someone a liar or cheat without having all the facts - I guess that's what keeps this thing we call the internet such a key component of today's world

I think my issue here is more with the headline that they felt was appropriate. I just wouldn't call anyone, including a respected PGA Pro - a cheater. And that's what I thought I read the first time I saw this post.

All I'm saying is before I post a headline accusing or questioning anyone, pro or schmoe - of lying or cheating - I'd make damn sure I know the rules before I make accusations or post a headline/blurb questioning someone's integrity. That's how I read this. If I'm the odd ball here - I'll be the first to admit as much.

Perhaps if they didn't post a headline questioning a PGA Pro's conduct , unless it's John Daly, maybe I wouldn't care. But I think it does appear a bit small minded.

Hm. I thought making absurd claims that aren't backed up by either facts or reality is what advertising is all about?

[mrthorlacius]

sir , it is as plain as day that the fellow is wondering, asking about, being curious, hence the question mark. There is no ''calling or asserting at all about anything. Good to know about the rules though, thx.

[Marrrk]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

Give it to me - I'll take it. If you feel it's totally acceptable to sit back and call someone a liar or cheat without having all the facts - I guess that's what keeps this thing we call the internet such a key component of today's world

I think my issue here is more with the headline that they felt was appropriate. I just wouldn't call anyone, including a respected PGA Pro - a cheater. And that's what I thought I read the first time I saw this post.

All I'm saying is before I post a headline accusing or questioning anyone, pro or schmoe - of lying or cheating - I'd make damn sure I know the rules before I make accusations or post a headline/blurb questioning someone's integrity. That's how I read this. If I'm the odd ball here - I'll be the first to admit as much.

Perhaps if they didn't post a headline questioning a PGA Pro's conduct , unless it's John Daly, maybe I wouldn't care. But I think it does appear a bit small minded.

duder, the problem is that you completely hauled off on the OP, when he was just asking an innocent question. he didn't go after anyone's integrity or make any outlandish accusations, that's what you did. and it's that type of bile that makes this board aggravating sometimes. worse, after everyone called you out immediately, you didn't back off.

[deeviant]

parmark, on Apr 6 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

I'm not out of line when I read a headline like this from someone who does not know what the heck they are talking about and I take exception to it. I do get upset when someone hiding behind a keyboard can make a statement accusing someone of cheating/lying/unethical conduct like this and throw it out there, without any recourse, right or wrong. (do I still beat my wife?) I think it makes everyone on here look like a jerk - me included - when you have to put up with idiots who think they know more than the pro's and officials on site.
Accusing a Pro of cheating is not out of line? Some nit picky guy hiding behind a keyboard is not out of line? I stand by what I said - it's this kind of person - who is not aware of the rules, who does not understand what he's actually saying who takes a small factoid and makes accusations and runs with it rather than getting the facts straight in the first place. Anyone who jumps on line accusing anyone of doing something outside the lines or unethichal - yes that bothers me. And it should bother others.
I do wonder what a little dweeb who has no other life but to jump on a board like this and make a totally inaccurate untrue statement contributes to society. I want to make sure I steer clear of them. Me, im actually in politics at a state capital on a senior staff, I see plenty of online crap that sometimes has a bit of truth to it, so if I am sensistive to postings that are half baked, forgive me. And I get along fine with my staff, client and media. But I don't make half a** statements about something until I get my facts straight is all i'm saying. And I do take offense to the idiots headline.
Your turn.

Well see there is the problem right there. Most everything you see in politics only has a bit of truth to it.

You sound as if you need a hug.

I see a huge difference in what the OP stated, and what you accused him of doing. If you ask me an apology should be made by you for such outrageous behaviour. Wait a minute, from Chicago eh, you arent Blagojevich are you? If so I guess I can understand the jumpy attitude.

[Pinged]

"I'm in politics."

OH BROTHER!!

This is the kind of guy who would ask "It depends on what your definition of 'is' is." Politicians like this guy will be the death of this country.

Fair question about Couple's putt... and several good explanations- and one d-bag who has to call for a senate inquiry into whether or not this was a communist plot or something. SHEESH!

[frozen_rope]

Ernie Els got a bad Ruling from USGA official Trey Holland at the 1994 US Open, Oakmont. Holland made the wrong Ruling, but since he is an official, it stood, and Els was not penalized. The mistake helped Els one full shot, maybe more. Els won the tournament.

BEND OF THE RIVER GC, on Apr 6 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

[. In some situations, it might be better to always get a ruling, rather than think you KNOW that massive little rule book.

[tarheel140]

Since I haven't seen anyone address the original question, here goes: There is no penalty if the stance is inadvertantly taken on or astride the line of putt (or on an extension of that line behind the ball) or is taken to avoid standing on another player's line of putt or prospective line of putt. Rule 16-1e. Additionally, the line of putt does not extend beyond the hole per the definition of line of putt, so there was no violation in this case. Hope this helps

[deeviant]

frozen_rope, on Apr 6 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

Actually, professional players as well as officials make rules violation mistakes all the time.
It's perfectly fine, and encouraged, for anyone watching play to question whether a player violated a Rule of Golf.
That includes playing partners, caddies, spectators in the gallery, fans watching at home on television etc.... It's part of the game.
If no Rule was broken then the outcome is no no penalty and no harm done. If there was a Rule broken then the player and, or, official is glad to learn about it.

Aren't you supposed to be at a tee time right now?

[OldSkoolTexan]

bradski, on Apr 6 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

I was watching that and heard Miller back off of saying something. i am glad they didn't because Fred had a great round and didn't need any controversy surrounding it.

I assumed he did it because he didnt want to step in anyones line, but I did wonder about it.  It was really quiet for a few seconds after he did it, so maybe they wondered too.....

[frozen_rope]

I am typing on my Blackberry as I drive to the course. The Golfsmith salesperson insisted I get an R flex, but I'm telling you right now if one shot goes left I am heading back to that store to trade it in for an S flex, maybe an X. Might even leave the course at the 6th green and if there is no traffic I can swap the R for an S or X and make it back to join my group on the 11th tee box. We'll see.

deeviant, on Apr 6 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

Aren't you supposed to be at a tee time right now?