[chunker]

I came across this in Getty images, and wondered if what I was seeing is a good or bad thing. (Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong forum)

This forward flex on woods before impact, is that the proper way to hit up on the ball? I've never really seen a swing slowed down to capture this forward flex before and had me thinking.

I know this article here discusses CPM for irons. It states if there is forward flex before impact then the shaft is too stiff, and if the bend is still lagging before impact then the flex is not stiff enough... but they're talking about an irons.

"The point being that if you had the ability to take freeze frame snapshots of your swing, you could catch an image of your club at the precise moment of impact and see if the shaft was truly 100% straight at that instant, or whether it was still bent backwards, or had bent forwards.

If you saw that the shaft was bent backward at impact, that would tell you that the CPM was too low for this club. You must either use a stiffer shaft, or reduce clubhead mass (ie, reduce "swingweight").

If you saw that the shaft was bent forward at impact, that would tell you the CPM was too high for this club. You should substitute a more supple shaft or perhaps add some lead tape to the bottom of the clubhead (increase "swingweight")."

Is that the whole idea behind the high launch/low spin shafts? flex point on the shaft is lower to flex forward before impact, yet having the tip section stiff to kill spin?

[generalbolg]

go to the golf digest website and look at cink's swing profile. his club at impact has pretty much the same thing going on.

i would think youd want a much different flex profile for irons, but for a driver it looks like the shaft is just kicking really hard. if hes producing the right numbers, launch and spin, then it should be fine.

[feelplayer]

In the newest issue of golf digest there's a picture of Bubba Watson during his swing sequence profile with the same thing going on right at impact, so it seems like it is correct for the driver.

[drew123]

if you look at most good tour pros they will look like that, Hogan looked like that to

[Stankleberry]

How the hell does the club get bent that way on a downswing? That has to be some kind of optical illusion.

[Stankleberry]

Hm, I think I understand. It's not flexed "forward" in that shot, it's flexed downward.

[tobybear]

This is an optical effect caused by using digital cameras. I cant remember exactly why but from what i understand is the a picture is taken from the top of the image to the bottom...

The club moves so far that it appears to bend like that when it really doesn't.

I know a shaft will not bend that that during a swing and its a result of the camera

[QWKDTSN]

tobybear, on Mar 14 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

This is an optical effect caused by using digital cameras. I cant remember exactly why but from what i understand is the a picture is taken from the top of the image to the bottom...

The club moves so far that it appears to bend like that when it really doesn't.

I know a shaft will not bend that that during a swing and its a result of the camera

Ding ding ding, you are correct!

[elmaestro]

QWKDTSN, on Mar 14 2009, 04:17 PM, said:

tobybear, on Mar 14 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

This is an optical effect caused by using digital cameras. I cant remember exactly why but from what i understand is the a picture is taken from the top of the image to the bottom...

The club moves so far that it appears to bend like that when it really doesn't.

I know a shaft will not bend that that during a swing and its a result of the camera

Ding ding ding, you are correct!

+1, it's just the camera.

[scratchskier]

Its a camera thing, its been on here before.

[stealthontour]

The camera used is a high speed casio compact style camera, not a 'normal' pro SLR, this effect only happens with the cheaper shutter design of non SLR digital camera's

[mikec222]

feelplayer, on Mar 14 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

In the newest issue of golf digest there's a picture of Bubba Watson during his swing sequence profile with the same thing going on right at impact, so it seems like it is correct for the driver.

The guy talking about bubba's swing said this was a good thing, but I'd have to say the camera thing makes alot more sense

[anth]

Stankleberry, on Mar 15 2009, 02:02 AM, said:

Hm, I think I understand. It's not flexed "forward" in that shot, it's flexed downward.

+1. The shaft bends "downward" at impact - something to do with the centre of gravity moving closer to the shaft at high speeds. The camera makes it look like it is bending forward, but I think that's because it is a 2D image displaying a real world 3D effect.

[Boba]

Which would explain why faster swings produce more "bend"



Also, sorry for the huge picture

[ezra76]

Is that Sadlowski in above photos?


My buddy has a swing vid where the shaft bends ridiculous on the downswing. He has a high swing speed but it looked crazy, like a ladies flex when I know it's an X. He said it was just the camera like above though.

[B_Rod]

There have been studies done with strain gauges mounted to the shaft and they all show the same forward flex in the shaft for normal golf swings even with steel shafts. The result is that it adds a bit of loft and closes the face through impact, by as much as 5deg. This is why you hear the rule of thumb that with stiffer shafts you tend to fade and more flexible shafts you tend to hook. This is not a camera effect.

[strapper22]

The science of shaft and club design is the clubhead is trying to catch up to the hands.
at the top of the swing you get deflection, that is the bend you see at the top of your swing ( change of direction )
this creates the LAG or bend on the downswing. as the clubhead appoaches the ball. the shaft kicks which means we create LEAD.
the clubhead gets ahead of the shaft. this also helps with squaring up the face of the club.
too soft of a shaft can create too much spin (high ball ) or close to create a hook.
a shaft too stiff can create little spin ( low ball ) or keep the face open causing slice or fade.
finding the right LAG and LEAD is the magic we all are looking for to create our best shots.
ie: Club Fitting! the shaft is the engine!

[bluetrane]

I'm glad I read this topic because i've been meaning to share this pic with the community. This pic is from the video of AK on golfdigest.com

I was wondering how this was possible. Maybe I should start using L flex.

[QWKDTSN]

This IS a camera effect. If you believe it is not an optical illusion caused by the camera please explain this helicopter's rotor blades...

[Buzzkill]

Shafts bend foward at impact and here's a writing about it:
http://www.seahorseg...o.uk/Shafts.htm

[golfboy007]

anybody use the true temper shaft lab. A little technology before the launch monitors that measured the bending of the shaft during the swing. true temper seems to be under the impression that a shaft bends forward at impact. Should we send them the pic of the helicopter?

[M0stly Harm13ss]

I have read before that it is a camera effect, even with expensive setups. The shaft does flex forward after impact but as a reaction to the forces at impact.

Linked to a number of Youtube Swingvision setups. You can't see the same effect with the really really high speed cameras.
Swingvision

[808golfers]

Like stated earlier, its the camera. On most video cameras on the menu there should be a "shutter speed" option and press that then the higher the shutter speed, it will look more normal, but if you have the shutter speed on "normal" or "auto", it will look like there is the forward kick of the shaft. You can test this out on your own just by recording your swing on V1 or some similar software, record on "auto" then after that, record another swing on a shutter speed around say, "1000" or "1500" you will see much less kick on the downswing and the higher you make the shutter speed, the more obvious it will become.

[Ubers]

Yes, the shaft flexes forward at the clubhead end... but just a little bit. The amount of flex shown in these images is ALWAYS the shutter effect. The top of the image is the first bit captured, the bottom of the image is the last bit captured. So by the time the camera captures the bottom section of the photo, the clubhead has had time to continue moving.

[NPVWhiz]

QWKDTSN, on Mar 15 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

This IS a camera effect. If you believe it is not an optical illusion caused by the camera please explain this helicopter's rotor blades...

I just can't accept the digital camera explanation for this yet. I've seen photos made with traditional SLR and film setups that shows the same thing.

The GD photos for many years were made with a very expensive high frame rate camera that used film.

The thing I don't understand about the photo of the helicopter is why the effect isn't consistent on each of the three rotors. A systematic artifact in the way the photo data is acquired by the CCD and organized in the file would affect all three rotors in the same way if the rotor speed is what results in the artifact, wouldn't it?

I suppose I could buy the idea that there is a shutter effect that could exaggerate the effect, like the AK photo appears. The Sadlowski shots seem to show the real extent of the shaft dynamics for his swing, which probably is a good example due to the phenomenal speed he generates.

[MG 1977]

It happens...it's simple (well maybe not that simple) physics. From the 9'o'clock position to roughly the half past 6 position the shaft flexes forward as at this point the energy stored in the shaft starts to unload, the release of the hands then straightens up the shaft's flex just before impact. If you watch Tiger's 'Swing Vision' on you tube with driver, if you pause it from 9 to 6 you can see the shaft flex forward and then straighten up before impact.

[Asleep]

I think it's a little of both. Shaft does unload/bow forward, but not to the extent captured in the stills:

Nike.com Tiger Woods Swing Portrait

[zivyn]

NPVWhiz, on Mar 15 2009, 09:50 AM, said:

I just can't accept the digital camera explanation for this yet. I've seen photos made with traditional SLR and film setups that shows the same thing.

The GD photos for many years were made with a very expensive high frame rate camera that used film.

The thing I don't understand about the photo of the helicopter is why the effect isn't consistent on each of the three rotors. A systematic artifact in the way the photo data is acquired by the CCD and organized in the file would affect all three rotors in the same way if the rotor speed is what results in the artifact, wouldn't it?

I suppose I could buy the idea that there is a shutter effect that could exaggerate the effect, like the AK photo appears. The Sadlowski shots seem to show the real extent of the shaft dynamics for his swing, which probably is a good example due to the phenomenal speed he generates.

The problem is that there are TWO DIFFERENT things going on here and that's why people find it hard to believe. First of all, this is a WELL DOCUMENTED camera effect of fast moving images, so the vast majority of the pictures you see with EXTREME shaft bends are caused by the DIGITAL camera taking the picture from the "top down" instead of exposing the whole frame instantly (like real film).

The helicopter problem stems from the fact that even though all the blades are moving at the same speed, they're not moving in the same direction WITH RESPECT TO THE DOWNWARD "PANNAING" of the digital camera. This should actually be pretty easy to understand once you look at the three blades in relation to each other:
The RIGHT blade is the most horizontal, so it exhibits the most distortion because it moves through the downward "pan" at the greatest speed relative to how fast the camera is "scanning down" the image.
The LEFT blade is a little more vertical, so less distortion.
The BOTTOM blade is almost entirely vertical during the camera's downward scan (and by downward scan, I mean the period of time that the picture is being taken and processed by the camera) so it has almost no distortion. If you look out near the tip you can see where the blade has moved ever so slightly during the picture taking process.

When you're talking about the Bubba Watson photo in GD recently (and maybe the Sadlowski picture, I didn't look at that one) there's a different effect going on. If you read in the comments they talk about how he hits the ball so hard that his club head is actually pushed BACKWARD due to the force of the impact. This however is a much less exaggerated shaft bend.

In the end it's pretty easy to tell the two effects apart:
If the ball is still on the tee, it's a very fast swing speed combined with camera effect (due to limits of processing)
If the ball is off the tee, it's impact related bounceback.



Hope that clears this up

[chunker]

Thanks, all. So I gather there is a certain amount of forward flex, but not nearly as much as shown in the pictures, which is an effect from digital cameras.

[Buzzkill]

chunker, on Mar 15 2009, 06:36 PM, said:

Thanks, all. So I gather there is a certain amount of forward flex, but not nearly as much as shown in the pictures, which is an effect from digital cameras.

I totally agree with ya - from all I have read from other sources, the shaft indeed flexes forward in most all cases.

[camflan]

take a picture with the camera upside down or on it's side to see how much of it is the sensor.

[Tomba29]

Its the camera. Seen it before quite a few times. Matrix used to have technology before all the Ozik hype called TTR (Tip Torsional Stability) and they had good pics on their site.

What it showed was a 'poor' shaft had a slight bow at impact and the 'good' Matrix shaft still had the clubhead lagging behind the hands.

[Buzzkill]

Tomba29, on Mar 16 2009, 07:51 AM, said:

Its the camera. Seen it before quite a few times. Matrix used to have technology before all the Ozik hype called TTR (Tip Torsional Stability) and they had good pics on their site.

What it showed was a 'poor' shaft had a slight bow at impact and the 'good' Matrix shaft still had the clubhead lagging behind the hands.

It's not a camera thing and a clubhead lagging behind the hands means the flex is way too strong for the person swinging it.

[LONG&STR8]

bluetrane, on Mar 14 2009, 10:07 PM, said:

I'm glad I read this topic because i've been meaning to share this pic with the community. This pic is from the video of AK on golfdigest.com

I was wondering how this was possible. Maybe I should start using L flex.

ak.jpg

It seems like it does flex forward (see shadow of the shaft) although not as much as the actual shaft shows.

[Schilly]

Call in the Time Warp crew

[Boba]

Did Golf Digest recently change the camera that they use for the swing sequences? I remember when they used a high speed analogue camera we didn't see this pronounced forward shaft lean.

[nickGT]

I think the digital illusion story makes sense. However the first time i saw this it was a picture of ben hogan from the 60's. This would have been taken on standard film.

[S70B]

QWKDTSN, on Mar 15 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

This IS a camera effect. If you believe it is not an optical illusion caused by the camera please explain this helicopter's rotor blades...

The photo doesn't look like its taken from directly below. It is showing a process of the rotor blades experiencing a combination of Feathering, Flapping as well as highlighting Lead and Lag forces acting on the rotor blades.

To understand Rotor Dynamics of a Helicopter, please do some google work as the topic is a little dry. Thanks.

[kdy663]

It is caused by the camera! In the pictures taken the club head and bottom of the shaft are moving FASTER than the hands and the top of the shaft, therefor by the time the images is captured on the film the club head has moved farther than the hands, causing it to look like there is forward bend in the shaft! It is simple physics, the end of a shaft(or club head) has to travel a further distance than the hands or grip in the same amount of time because it has a bigger radius(just like the helicopter blades, the are not bending forward, just the outside of the blade is moving faster than the inside). As the last few pics show, if the camera is set up for a golf swing, it will show NO forward bend in the shaft because it does not do it, the club head and shaft are still behind the hands(at lease for professionals and proper golf swings) at impact!

[Buzzkill]

kdy663, on Mar 17 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

It is caused by the camera! In the pictures taken the club head and bottom of the shaft are moving FASTER than the hands and the top of the shaft, therefor by the time the images is captured on the film the club head has moved farther than the hands, causing it to look like there is forward bend in the shaft! It is simple physics, the end of a shaft(or club head) has to travel a further distance than the hands or grip in the same amount of time because it has a bigger radius(just like the helicopter blades, the are not bending forward, just the outside of the blade is moving faster than the inside). As the last few pics show, if the camera is set up for a golf swing, it will show NO forward bend in the shaft because it does not do it, the club head and shaft are still behind the hands(at lease for professionals and proper golf swings) at impact!

To summarize, the shaft bends forward.