[hypergolf]

I have a friend's friend (lets call him A) who joins us from time to time. When my friends and I get together we play betting for fun ranging from $10-$50/stroke. We played with A a few times but never got to bet with him until last week where he wanted to join us for a foursome where we were betting $20/stroke. We kind of know he cheats here and there but the part that bugged me the most, although it shouldn't really matter because he still couldn't beat us and win our money, is that 9 out of his 14 clubs are non-confirming. He uses some Japanese version of Callaway that is not legal plus some Honma iron set (3-PW) that gives extra distance even with his slow swing speed. Now is this fair when others are playing with legal equipments, with proper etiquette without cheating, and most importantly we are playing a legit betting game fair and square? What would you do to A if this was your situation? What's your thought on this? Thanks.

[dukedsp]

If you want to stand on principle, then I would say don't bet with him at all. If on the other hand you don't care about making a point and you are sure that you would win even with the cheating and illegal clubs, then why not bet and relieve him of his money?

[damnorcross]

If he can't beat you guys, I'd be asking him to play 7 days a week. I'd even let him use some Condor golf balls and a 1000cc driver.

[klaymon]

To take the scenario a step further, what if he would start to come around and start taking money here and there? Is it OK to bet against him as long as you are winning, but if he starts to win it's sour grapes because of his equipment? I would find a way to exclude him from the betting completely or fully accept it (non-conforming equipment and all) if he starts to win some.

[asloper6001]

If you are winning, just take his money. Yea, the clubs may be illegal, but he still has to put the ball in the hole to win. If he ever does win, just call him out on his illegal clubs and cheating and take your money back lol.

[cheeser]

Judging by what you just said, it may sound like it's possible for him to beat you, let's say twice out of 10 times, eventually. You are fully aware of his equipment situation and you need to make a decision now and stick with it. If you accept him into the group, it's unbiased. No judging him on his equipment.

Sour grapes if you lose and call him on it? Heck yeah. You allow him to bet only if he loses? I say you make the decision and be a man about it. There's nothing worse than a gambling man who acts like a child when they lose. I've bet against guys who had illegal drivers or that have "fluffed" their lies and I still took the bet. Win or lose, fair and square. No need to be a sore loser.

$10 to $50 a stroke? That could be some serious coin at least for me. Maybe a $1 a stroke for me. LOL. Good luck with whatever you do.

[minitour]

If you agreed to the bet knowing he has these non conforming clubs, then shame on you. If he starts to beat you and you want to whine about it then it's going to come off as sour grapes. Either don't bet him or don't complain when/if he takes home some money, just don't try to have it both ways.

-mini

[asloper6001]

minitour, on Jan 30 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

If you agreed to the bet knowing he has these non conforming clubs, then shame on you. If he starts to beat you and you want to whine about it then it's going to come off as sour grapes. Either don't bet him or don't complain when/if he takes home some money, just don't try to have it both ways.

-mini

Agreed.

[harold baines]

I very highly doubt "non conforming" clubs make a bit of difference in the guys score

the cheating, now that's concerning, but the clubs don't matter

[hypergolf]

cheeser, on Jan 31 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

Judging by what you just said, it may sound like it's possible for him to beat you, let's say twice out of 10 times, eventually. You are fully aware of his equipment situation and you need to make a decision now and stick with it. If you accept him into the group, it's unbiased. No judging him on his equipment.

Sour grapes if you lose and call him on it? Heck yeah. You allow him to bet only if he loses? I say you make the decision and be a man about it. There's nothing worse than a gambling man who acts like a child when they lose. I've bet against guys who had illegal drivers or that have "fluffed" their lies and I still took the bet. Win or lose, fair and square. No need to be a sore loser.

$10 to $50 a stroke? That could be some serious coin at least for me. Maybe a $1 a stroke for me. LOL. Good luck with whatever you do.

This was the first time we were betting. Before when we just played normal 18 hole rounds a few times, he definitely beat us from time to time. I was just talking about this one incident where we had our first betting experience that he didn't win us. He definitely can beat us time to time.

Yes $10-$50 might sound a lot but this is how we play. Lets say I am 10 handicap and you are 0 handicap. The person with 0 handicap will give $100 (for $10/stroke) for the difference in handicap. So I will start with +$100 and you with -$100. Then we play scratch from there. We usually play our handicap and at worst maybe 4 strokes off on bad days. Of course the lower handicap player will win more holes therefore regaining the -$100 during the course of play. Usually at most you would lose is $150-200 (for $10/stroke) when playing foursomes. Birdie is stroke difference +$10, Eagle stroke difference +$20, Double Eagle stroke difference +$40 and Hole in ONE is stroke difference +$80. So far we never had double eagle or hole in one occurrence. Then winner buys dinner and beer for the gang. So it's actually quite a fun way to play. We only play $30-$50 for big client entertainments. For friends usually $10-$20.

minitour, on Jan 31 2009, 12:09 AM, said:

If you agreed to the bet knowing he has these non conforming clubs, then shame on you. If he starts to beat you and you want to whine about it then it's going to come off as sour grapes. Either don't bet him or don't complain when/if he takes home some money, just don't try to have it both ways.

-mini

We found out that he was using non conforming clubs in the middle of the game. We don't whine about the money. Otherwise we won't bet at all. I am just saying that it is quite unfair, plus it's a sensitive issue because he (A) is my friend's business client as well. So don't want to create unnecessary trouble. But maybe I will just bring up the issue if we get into this situation again. But does non-confirming clubs really have that much advantage or are we all just being sensitive? Because when I tried his irons, I increased length by 1 1/2 clubs which is very rare with other OEMs...

[stasek]

When it comes to his irons - I don't think there's anything magical about them - it's more likely that his lofts are stronger, i.e. PW at 44*, whereas your PW is 47*.

[SUBPARJ]

$10-$50 a stroke ..?? I wouldn't play a guy who cheated for .10 to .50 a stroke.

As far as the clubs go, if i was in a tournament it would bug me because thats where it's illegal, otherwise who cares people playing those clubs rarely have a game any way ( which sounds like the case here). But like I said before I cant stand to play with , let alone bet with someone who cheats.

[hypergolf]

harold baines, on Jan 31 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

I very highly doubt "non conforming" clubs make a bit of difference in the guys score

the cheating, now that's concerning, but the clubs don't matter

Yup a few cheating includes:

1) When a ball lands on a bad lie or thick rough, he will pick it up saying, "Is this my ball?" then he will place it at a better location.
2) His penalty drop is more than 1 or 2 clubs away from the point of drop... Say more like 5 to 10 feet from the drop point into the fairway...
3) When playing sand bunker, he picks up stuff that is in the bunker that might obstruct him from his bunker shot + he touches the sand with his club at address always.
4) Stepping on other people's putting line.
5) Talking when people are putting or hitting.
6) Not waiting for the person behind his ball to hit first... He is quite impatient so he will just hit the ball if he gets there first.
7) Making fun of people or comments in an annoying way when others make a mistake or a bad shot (this is not cheating but annoying)
8) He doesn't putt till the finish. If he thinks it's near enough he just picks up the ball and counting it as "given". But his definition of near is quite far in our eyes...

These are just to name a few. But as mentioned before, he is my friend's client and definitely a sensitive matter especially in Asia...

[ZBigStick]

Non conforming irons?

I need your job, I am in no shape currently to loose $200. Perhaps I could become your friend's "friend", misstate my handicap, cheat and take you guys for some cash.

Death to cheaters!

[hypergolf]

ZBigStick, on Jan 31 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

Non conforming irons?

I need your job, I am in no shape currently to loose $200. Perhaps I could become your friend's "friend", misstate my handicap, cheat and take you guys for some cash.

Death to cheaters!

Haha. We usually play a few rounds first without betting to gauge your handicap. Of course you could act... But I don't think you would want to do that paying high green fees. Plus your friends would know your real handicap especially in same circle of friends. Even if you do act and succeed on faking your handicap, if you win too many times we will lower your handicap, which is what we are planning to do to (A). Haha. Lower his handicap for using fake clubs and cheating... keke. That will be good because we won't offend him and boost his ego plus we can kind of balance out his cheating.

As for my friends and I, you can see why we are so picky on our equipments... We bet heavily every week so looks comes second. Performance first. Haha... But it does help because it forces us to improve and keep us under pressure. Of course we don't bet every time.

[drgolfaholic]

asloper6001, on Jan 30 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

If you are winning, just take his money. Yea, the clubs may be illegal, but he still has to put the ball in the hole to win. If he ever does win, just call him out on his illegal clubs and cheating and take your money back lol.

I assume you're joking. Well done if it's a joke. To the OP, the question is if it bothers you with all of his violations, why would you bet with him. let alone calling it fair or unfair?

[hypergolf]

drgolfaholic, on Jan 31 2009, 01:18 AM, said:

asloper6001, on Jan 30 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

If you are winning, just take his money. Yea, the clubs may be illegal, but he still has to put the ball in the hole to win. If he ever does win, just call him out on his illegal clubs and cheating and take your money back lol.

I assume you're joking. Well done if it's a joke. To the OP, the question is if it bothers you with all of his violations, why would you bet with him. let alone calling it fair or unfair?

Please read the previous comments and you will know why we can't leave him out... If I wanted my friend to lose out his business we could be nasty to his "friend". I enjoy playing with my friend. Just not A. Luckily he doesn't follow out my friend too often. Maybe once every 2 weeks or so...

[Bobbers]

I've heard of non-conforming drivers, never irons. Is he aware that they're non-conforming? Or are the rest of you that up on equipment that you spotted it and haven't commented? Asking "wow, I went looking for some like yours based on how I hit 'em and did you know they're hard because they're non-conforming?" might be a graceful way to let him know that you know in case the irons aren't common knowledge in the first place amongst the gamblers.

I guess, if the business relationship matters, it becomes something of a responsibility of your playing partner who actually has the relationship to address the issue and my guess is he'd like to do that privately. I know if I were the one with the client I'd not be too happy with one of my regular playing partners offering an observation like, "sure, it's easy to win when you have the morals of a rat and Rodney Dangerfield's old set in your bag, you scum weasel", or something equally as charming...

Just my .02 worth.

[HoosierGolfer]

damnorcross, on Jan 30 2009, 10:06 AM, said:

If he can't beat you guys, I'd be asking him to play 7 days a week. I'd even let him use some Condor golf balls and a 1000cc driver.

Well said. I had the same thought.

[drgolfaholic]

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 09:23 AM, said:

drgolfaholic, on Jan 31 2009, 01:18 AM, said:

asloper6001, on Jan 30 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

If you are winning, just take his money. Yea, the clubs may be illegal, but he still has to put the ball in the hole to win. If he ever does win, just call him out on his illegal clubs and cheating and take your money back lol.

I assume you're joking. Well done if it's a joke. To the OP, the question is if it bothers you with all of his violations, why would you bet with him. let alone calling it fair or unfair?

Please read the previous comments and you will know why we can't leave him out... If I wanted my friend to lose out his business we could be nasty to his "friend". I enjoy playing with my friend. Just not A. Luckily he doesn't follow out my friend too often. Maybe once every 2 weeks or so...

I can see why you don't want to be nasty by pointing out his violations, but how about politely turning down large bets and favoring smaller bets?

Look...I think you have too much on your mind while trying to enjoy a round of golf. (1) you don't want to hurt someone's feeling; (2) you don't want to hurt your friend's business; (3) you want to focus on playing well. Personally, that's too much on my plate if I want to enjoy playing a round of golf. Just my take.

[mjtoal]

In big stakes golf games, there are often fewer rules than according to the R&A/USGA. Check out Rick Reilly's book 'Who's Your Caddy?' for a fascinating account of some serious bets.

[minitour]

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

We usually play a few rounds first without betting to gauge your handicap.

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

This was the first time we were betting. Before when we just played normal 18 hole rounds a few times, he definitely beat us from time to time. I was just talking about this one incident where we had our first betting experience that he didn't win us. He definitely can beat us time to time.
...

We found out that he was using non conforming clubs in the middle of the game.

So....you played a few rounds with him before but never noticed his sticks until you decided to allow him in on the bet?

-mini

[mark m]

I would tell him to use conforming equipment or he is out of the bets.

What would be the reaction if you or one of the other guys that wins some $$ often started using non-conforming clubs as well?

I can't imagine that would go over too well.

Whether we like it or not - we have one set of rules - everyone should play by them. An agreement to waive the rules is a violation also.

There are always some guys looking for an "edge." I would keep my eye on him as this may not be the only area where he is skirting the rules.

[bradski]

I would find some non-conforming clubs yourself and see if he says anything. caddy shack2 12 gauge driver or something.. just for fun one day use a cheater club that actually makes a difference and let the others know that you are going to play with it. Just wait for him to say something and then call out his clubs. then he looks like the jerk.........

[drgolfaholic]

bradski, on Jan 30 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

I would find some non-conforming clubs yourself and see if he says anything. caddy shack2 12 gauge driver or something.. just for fun one day use a cheater club that actually makes a difference and let the others know that you are going to play with it. Just wait for him to say something and then call out his clubs. then he looks like the jerk.........

Hmmm...let's see...use a different set of clubs, nonconforming that is, just to get the guy to react and then call out his clubs while risking messing up your own game not to mention being called out by other guys in your group. What if the guy doesn't say anything? Now what?

[hypergolf]

minitour, on Jan 31 2009, 07:07 AM, said:

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

We usually play a few rounds first without betting to gauge your handicap.

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

This was the first time we were betting. Before when we just played normal 18 hole rounds a few times, he definitely beat us from time to time. I was just talking about this one incident where we had our first betting experience that he didn't win us. He definitely can beat us time to time.
...

We found out that he was using non conforming clubs in the middle of the game.

So....you played a few rounds with him before but never noticed his sticks until you decided to allow him in on the bet?

-mini

Yes, I actually didn't know until my other friend (lets call him the 4th player) mentioned it to me quietly. When we play foursome it's not always the same 4th person or me when we play with A and friend. I personally played with A 3 times with this betting incident included. Also we always assume that people play with conforming clubs. Do you always look into other people's bag and see if they are conforming? Especially some brand like Honma where we don't usually play with? I really don't see your point. But thanks for being a detective to "bust" me for I don't know what.

[fishlips723]

minitour, on Jan 30 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

If you agreed to the bet knowing he has these non conforming clubs, then shame on you. If he starts to beat you and you want to whine about it then it's going to come off as sour grapes. Either don't bet him or don't complain when/if he takes home some money, just don't try to have it both ways.

-mini

I disagree.I say give him a dose of his own medicine.If/when he ever beats you,then you should bring up the legality of his clubs.But remember,just because its made in Japan doesnt make it illigal.For instance,I am not sure what they can do to an iron to make it go longer as you've mentioned,unless they make them with stronger lofts,but thats not illegal.

All that said,it wouldnt be how I would go about it.I would take my friend to the side and tell him how you feel about his friend, "player A".Tell your friend that if player "A" ever plays with you guys,you prefer not to bet

[hypergolf]

I remember the name of the driver. The driver is called Callaway ERC+ Fusion but I don't remember the irons. I will check it out the name next time. I just remember it was some Honma.

[atlanta golfer]

The non-conforming clubs, who cares. The ways that he cheats that you listed, I would call him out on it in front of the group. Now, if business and politics don't allow you to embarrass the guy, then you've got bigger problems to deal with.

[Bobcat 2]

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

harold baines, on Jan 31 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

I very highly doubt "non conforming" clubs make a bit of difference in the guys score

the cheating, now that's concerning, but the clubs don't matter

Yup a few cheating includes:

1) When a ball lands on a bad lie or thick rough, he will pick it up saying, "Is this my ball?" then he will place it at a better location.
2) His penalty drop is more than 1 or 2 clubs away from the point of drop... Say more like 5 to 10 feet from the drop point into the fairway...
3) When playing sand bunker, he picks up stuff that is in the bunker that might obstruct him from his bunker shot + he touches the sand with his club at address always.
4) Stepping on other people's putting line.
5) Talking when people are putting or hitting.
6) Not waiting for the person behind his ball to hit first... He is quite impatient so he will just hit the ball if he gets there first.
7) Making fun of people or comments in an annoying way when others make a mistake or a bad shot (this is not cheating but annoying)
8) He doesn't putt till the finish. If he thinks it's near enough he just picks up the ball and counting it as "given". But his definition of near is quite far in our eyes...

These are just to name a few. But as mentioned before, he is my friend's client and definitely a sensitive matter especially in Asia...

Can't you cut some slack on stepping in others lines of putt. Sometimes it just happens by acident. I never thought of it as cheating.

[Bobcat 2]

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

I have a friend's friend (lets call him A) who joins us from time to time. When my friends and I get together we play betting for fun ranging from $10-$50/stroke. We played with A a few times but never got to bet with him until last week where he wanted to join us for a foursome where we were betting $20/stroke. We kind of know he cheats here and there but the part that bugged me the most, although it shouldn't really matter because he still couldn't beat us and win our money, is that 9 out of his 14 clubs are non-confirming. He uses some Japanese version of Callaway that is not legal plus some Honma iron set (3-PW) that gives extra distance even with his slow swing speed. Now is this fair when others are playing with legal equipments, with proper etiquette without cheating, and most importantly we are playing a legit betting game fair and square? What would you do to A if this was your situation? What's your thought on this? Thanks.

I do not believe any Honma irons are non conforming with USGA. The COR applies only to clubs of 15 degrees or less, therfore, not irons. Most JDM drivers but not all, unitl recently, were non conforming with too high a COR

[hypergolf]

Bobcat 2, on Feb 3 2009, 12:44 AM, said:

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

harold baines, on Jan 31 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

I very highly doubt "non conforming" clubs make a bit of difference in the guys score

the cheating, now that's concerning, but the clubs don't matter

Yup a few cheating includes:

1) When a ball lands on a bad lie or thick rough, he will pick it up saying, "Is this my ball?" then he will place it at a better location.
2) His penalty drop is more than 1 or 2 clubs away from the point of drop... Say more like 5 to 10 feet from the drop point into the fairway...
3) When playing sand bunker, he picks up stuff that is in the bunker that might obstruct him from his bunker shot + he touches the sand with his club at address always.
4) Stepping on other people's putting line.
5) Talking when people are putting or hitting.
6) Not waiting for the person behind his ball to hit first... He is quite impatient so he will just hit the ball if he gets there first.
7) Making fun of people or comments in an annoying way when others make a mistake or a bad shot (this is not cheating but annoying)
8) He doesn't putt till the finish. If he thinks it's near enough he just picks up the ball and counting it as "given". But his definition of near is quite far in our eyes...

These are just to name a few. But as mentioned before, he is my friend's client and definitely a sensitive matter especially in Asia...

Can't you cut some slack on stepping in others lines of putt. Sometimes it just happens by acident. I never thought of it as cheating.

Stepping on line of putt can be forgiven if he does it once or twice by accident. Not every single time. Plus, after looking at all the other things he do we are at a very sensitive/annoyed stage so whatever small things he does will be magnified. Hope you can get a chance to play with this kind of player and see how patient/forgiving you can be...

Bobcat 2, on Feb 3 2009, 12:50 AM, said:

hypergolf, on Jan 30 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

I have a friend's friend (lets call him A) who joins us from time to time. When my friends and I get together we play betting for fun ranging from $10-$50/stroke. We played with A a few times but never got to bet with him until last week where he wanted to join us for a foursome where we were betting $20/stroke. We kind of know he cheats here and there but the part that bugged me the most, although it shouldn't really matter because he still couldn't beat us and win our money, is that 9 out of his 14 clubs are non-confirming. He uses some Japanese version of Callaway that is not legal plus some Honma iron set (3-PW) that gives extra distance even with his slow swing speed. Now is this fair when others are playing with legal equipments, with proper etiquette without cheating, and most importantly we are playing a legit betting game fair and square? What would you do to A if this was your situation? What's your thought on this? Thanks.

I do not believe any Honma irons are non conforming with USGA. The COR applies only to clubs of 15 degrees or less, therfore, not irons. Most JDM drivers but not all, unitl recently, were non conforming with too high a COR

I will find out the model number. I didn't say all Honma are non nonconforming. This specific design is according to my friend.

[larrybud]

If your buddy can't say anything to the guy, then I wouldn't bet. You're not obligated to bet with a cheater, even if you win most of the time.

Hell, I play 3 80 year old guys (my dad and his two buddies) for 50 cents a hole and we'll call someone out in a heart beat. I've also called people out in tournaments. The day I feel bad about pointing out the fact that THEY are breaking the rules is the day I quit. When and if they get pissed, my response is "I don't write the rules, I only play by them".