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A different concept for a golf swing (merged)


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#61 Poke

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:45 PM

Not sure I'm getting all of this, but here's what I see.

By expanding so athletically through the ball, lower left side projecting ample energy around the left post and the core and lower rightside following more targetward, while his head and shoulders have a hang back / block look for a nano second at impact, it's almost like Hogan is occupying two spaces, maybe three, at once.  And he's how many years old in the video?  Makes Chad Cambell's swing look like mine.


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#62 martinez

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 03:10 AM

View Postdowntoscratch, on Jan 22 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

What would you say are the chief benefits of this drill done either way.......... for YOU?  Thanks, DTS

For me the benefits were, at the time I posted that video, training me to move under my body with the pivot on the BS (with it on the right) I used to roll the left arm over the top of my right which to the untrained eye might have made me look more Hogan like. I was low and deep still but would get under the plane and hang back sling DTL. I had to reverse that basically.

With it under the left leg I want to feel my left leg disappear as I turn behind it. This gives me a feeling of both the top of the thighs compressing as the front of my hips expand open.

There's two more things I want to add in videos....that's the arms aiming and the spine waving.....but I'm not ready to do that just yet. I'm happy with the two videos posted as they represent something I hold to be the truth for me. I cannot imagine not using that image in the future. When I get the release left down.....shouldn't be long thanks to one tip from 8iron....I will post these vids. They wont be done justice or make as much sense till I am releasing in the right direction.

@Poke
Yes he is just exploding... I like your description of what you see although I think the core goes left of left so the hang back is targetward as opposed to back.

#63 downtoscratch

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:53 AM

poke said........ "while his head and shoulders have a hang back / block look for a nano second at impact, it's almost like Hogan is occupying two spaces, maybe three, at once".

Poke, To me what you are dubbing hang back is, in Hogan's case here IMO, more accurately described as counter-balancing the forces ............ opposition. It would be similar to throwing an upper cut in boxing. The forces involved in creating the powerful blow demand a resistance point, the forward leg, taking up this role or
in golf parlance hitting against a firm left side. The forceful unwinding into and against this resistance creates
an opposing force for the sake of balance. The more common use of the term hang back would suggest a
reference to leaving weight on the trailing leg which as you've indicated wasn't the case with Hogan as you
mention he shows lower left side projecting ample energy around the left post. This image was always a
sticking point to my eyes as well and I long thought it to be a sign of a flaw in an otherwise near perfect
action. Now I'm satisfied to view it as martinez describes it...... "Yes he is just exploding...  I think the core
goes left of left so the hang back is targetward as opposed to back". JMO.  dts

@ martinez, Though at this point in the swing the momentum is many times greater, it occurs to me that
when you describe it as the core going left of left............ this is that point in the swing that most mimics
or mirrors your archer's takeaway ie; the direction or obliqueness of the unwinding upper torso... a
shearing off if you will, where the club's energy is directed at the point of contact, target ward yet the
prime motivator of the energy is exiting left of left.

P.S. This would be the perfect point at which to insert martinez's tagline....... anything you obtain with force
       must be retained with force.!!!

Edited by downtoscratch, 22 January 2009 - 05:09 AM.


#64 downtoscratch

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:57 AM

poke said........ "while his head and shoulders have a hang back / block look for a nano second at impact, it's almost like Hogan is occupying two spaces, maybe three, at once".

In a funny set of coincidences, Sevam1 describes this same reference made above in a way that compliments
martinez's archer's analogies................ he says "the body becomes like a bow".  dts

Edited by downtoscratch, 22 January 2009 - 05:03 AM.


#65 martinez

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 05:51 AM

The body is always a bow imo.....you aim it.....load it...load it some more as you re-aim it....release it.

DTS, can you tell me which part exactly you thought was a sign of a flaw in a near perfect action? I have a couple of ideas, and started a big reply, but realized I needed to know which part you're referring to so I can waffle on about 'it" specifically. ;)


#66 downtoscratch

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 06:18 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 22 2009, 05:51 AM, said:

The body is always a bow imo.....you aim it.....load it...load it some more as you re-aim it....release it.

DTS, can you tell me which part exactly you thought was a sign of a flaw in a near perfect action? I have a couple of ideas, and started a big reply, but realized I needed to know which part you're referring to so I can waffle on about 'it" specifically. ;)

Sure, the part Poke referred to as hang back.............. and as I wrote that view was later
abandoned for the reasons you gave and I spoke of in response to Poke's post. Forces,
resistance, opposition................. exploding on it!!!  Yes, the body is a bow, I agree.     dts

dts said......            ( edit for clarity)
This image ( the appearance of a hang back) was always a sticking point to my eyes as well and I long thought it to be a sign of a flaw in an otherwise near perfect action. Now I'm satisfied to view it as martinez describes it...... "Yes he is just exploding... I think the core goes left of left so the hang back is targetward as opposed to back". JMO. dts

Edited by downtoscratch, 22 January 2009 - 06:21 AM.


#67 martinez

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 07:07 AM

I see mate.

We absolutely must have freedom in our hip joints. The core pulls left behind into the ground and into the sacrum....then the best description of the feeling I want to get from there is both hips opening (you see the glutes squeezing on Adam Scott and a younger Tiger at this point, whereas Hogan appears to have used more of the musculature at the base of the spine) and the spine waving up....exploding up through the heart. Thing is my swing stays under my heart going back and I should be able to use this upward energy in a positive way to get the club traveling low through by counterbalancing it into the follow through.

Posted Image

LOL @ my left release..........it feels low left I swear. ;) I'll get there tomorrow......if I have to hit low left screamers.

Edited by martinez, 22 January 2009 - 07:10 AM.


#68 downtoscratch

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:03 AM

martinez said...........(you see the glutes squeezing on Adam Scott and a younger Tiger at this point, whereas Hogan appears to have used more of the musculature at the base of the spine) and the spine waving up....exploding up through the heart. Thing is my swing stays under my heart going back and I should be able to use this upward energy in a positive way to get the club traveling low through by counterbalancing it into the follow through.

Martinez,
                I like your use of figurative metaphorical expressions... I really do. More art than science
which suits me fine. However when you go beyond the bounds of my understanding I must confess
it or just pay you lip service by suggesting that I "get it". Your reference to Scott and Tiger using the glutes is easy enough.......... a guy named Ballard called it "pinching the dime where the sun don't shine". But then you say Hogan uses the musculature at the base of the spine......... if that isn't the
home of the glutes what is it? Help me out with..... my swing stays under my heart going back, I
think I know what you are saying but you know what happens when you assume anything!!! The differences in the appearance of your finish and Hogan's is as you say, about counterbalancing.
Again, the body's reaction to the forces....... he's fighting them, you've given in to them, IMO. dts

#69 Poke

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:10 AM

Just to be clear, I said a hang back look (I like the targetward description) not that he was hanging back as in a fault.  It is pure athleticism, using his entire being to create and apply energy/force in his desired direction.

Martinez,  

As the left hip and leg reach their rotational limit, are you still projecting energy through them?  I would guess, yes.  If so, is it rotational, behind you (address position), away from the target or somewhere else?  

#70 martinez

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:45 AM

View Postdowntoscratch, on Jan 22 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

Martinez,
                I like your use of figurative metaphorical expressions... I really do. More art than science
which suits me fine. However when you go beyond the bounds of my understanding I must confess
it or just pay you lip service by suggesting that I "get it". Your reference to Scott and Tiger using the glutes is easy enough.......... a guy named Ballard called it "pinching the dime where the sun don't shine". But then you say Hogan uses the musculature at the base of the spine......... if that isn't the home of the glutes what is it?
I will keep it simple...because I need to(for me) :D
If you need to stop a bowel movement you would first use the muscles of the pelvic floor.....then when things got really bad you would probably throw in the glutes for good measure.

Help me out with..... my swing stays under my heart going back, I
think I know what you are saying but you know what happens when you assume anything!!!
The chest(heart) reaches up as the pivot(core/hips) pulls back into the ground, expanding away from the left heel. The backswing is under the heart with the pivot until it starts to rise up to the level of the heart...then I know it's time to transition.

The differences in the appearance of your finish and Hogan's is as you say, about counterbalancing.
Again, the body's reaction to the forces....... he's fighting them, you've given in to them, IMO. dts

To be honest I feel I'm fighting too much, but fighting the wrong thing. I have had to learn to release the right elbow low (and that's what it is, not a big John Deere move) to follow the pivot on the backswing, now I need to learn to release the left elbow low to follow the pivot through impact. I know where you are coming from, and I know we currently disagree but we will keep that difference of opinion between us. I really believe he is not fighting a thing. On certain shots he would be, but not the full flourish we see here.

Some guy posted this great video.....;)

Hogans elbows/hips

Loosey goosey elbows, just a little tug either way just to get them moving imo.

Again I'm out............... g'night/morning. Sux being on the opposite side of the world to have a discussion.


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#71 supermario428

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:08 AM

Great vids! Haven´t seen anything like this. Love them!

I wonder if you could go trough the downswing part of the bow with a little more detal. Didnt really get the action going there. Maybe a dtl view would help? The part with moving the space on your right side around behind of your left heel has really helped me with getting my weight on my left heel. Always tried to do it but couldnt get it done in a proper way.

Tnx again!

#72 martinez

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 06:58 PM

Yeah I plan to get some video up on the arms aiming which essentially takes care of aiming the Crossbow.

@Poke
I like the way you see it, it makes sense to me. If you can see it.....you can conceive a way to do it....trust it. See it as one motion from one unit, no beginning and no end.

Honestly the energy is long gone from hip/pelvis area by then. It's a rush that moves through the body like a wave (best way I can describe it) most of the movement you see is exhaust.

#73 Double Gee

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 02:10 AM

I am not a swing afficiendo like many - but is this swing you have very very similar to the stack and tilt system?

When you pull back the right shoulder, it seems to me you are  having a lot of weight on your left side ..... Can you explain the difference ?

#74 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 02:50 AM

I don't think I'm qualified to discuss the stack and tilt system and thereby discuss the differences without possibly making an a** of myself.

There does appear to me to be some similarities, but I don't feel I have much weight left in the backswing........I start somewhat on my right side then reach for the left heel as I pull away from it and ultimately behind it.

When you pull on a bow you push the actual bow and pull back....that's what it feels like. I'm not leaning one way with more force than the other.

Hope that helps. If you want to tell me about certain aspects of S+T that you see similarities other than the weight left I can comment. But I'll try to stay away from comparing myself to other patterns.....without specifics.

My theory/concept is different to anything I have heard, maybe it's similar to a lot of different patterns in some way. I'm not claiming to have invented anything here. I just feel it is.....if not how, close to how some very good strikers have loaded up their power. And it's simple imo, not a complex sequence of movements.

Cheers
Martinez

#75 kevcarter

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 07:17 AM

View PostDouble Gee, on Jan 23 2009, 01:10 AM, said:

I am not a swing afficiendo like many - but is this swing you have very very similar to the stack and tilt system?

When you pull back the right shoulder, it seems to me you are  having a lot of weight on your left side ..... Can you explain the difference ?


View Postmartinez, on Jan 23 2009, 01:50 AM, said:

I don't think I'm qualified to discuss the stack and tilt system and thereby discuss the differences without possibly making an a** of myself.

There does appear to me to be some similarities, but I don't feel I have much weight left in the backswing........I start somewhat on my right side then reach for the left heel as I pull away from it and ultimately behind it.

When you pull on a bow you push the actual bow and pull back....that's what it feels like. I'm not leaning one way with more force than the other.

Hope that helps. If you want to tell me about certain aspects of S+T that you see similarities other than the weight left I can comment. But I'll try to stay away from comparing myself to other patterns.....without specifics.

My theory/concept is different to anything I have heard, maybe it's similar to a lot of different patterns in some way. I'm not claiming to have invented anything here. I just feel it is.....if not how, close to how some very good strikers have loaded up their power. And it's simple imo, not a complex sequence of movements.

Cheers
Martinez

Double Gee,

In my opinion you have a very good eye for the swing. To me, Stack & Tilt was really my introduction to a pattern with a very centered, stationary head. There are on TON of other things that go with it, but that stationary head is key...

Now, every time I see someone with that steady stationary head I try to see S&T. Generally, it's not the case, and I agree with Martinez that the similarities in the patterns may end there.

That being said, both are a great way to feel yourself swing the golf club. I really like S&T, and I really like Martinez' motion and his teaching. For what it's worth, I am very much enjoying this thread.

Good eye Double Gee. Experiment and see what works for you!

Kevin

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#76 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:03 AM

And Kev knows a lot more about the stack and tilt pattern than me. :welcomeani:

#77 Ezgolfer

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:17 AM

Martinez ,
Double gee is correct to some extent . I was filmed by my pro yesterday. To increase my turn i used the bow on backswing during the lesson . I  was all left  kind a like S & T . It does feel you will end up with weight on the left side specially with head and body centered.

Edited by Ezgolfer, 23 January 2009 - 08:18 AM.


#78 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:39 AM

I never said he was wrong tbh. I just reiterated what I see is the core of my takeaway. It has some elements that could easily be seen as S+T. One of my students looks copybook S+T at the top of his BS with this move....but he has always addressed on the left axis.

I would be a lot more right to start with than any S+T pattern (I believe), start just inside my right and never move anywhere but behind me then ultimately left.

#79 kevcarter

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:01 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 23 2009, 07:39 AM, said:

I never said he was wrong tbh. I just reiterated what I see is the core of my takeaway. It has some elements that could easily be seen as S+T. One of my students looks copybook S+T at the top of his BS with this move....but he has always addressed on the left axis.

I would be a lot more right to start with than any S+T pattern (I believe), start just inside my right and never move anywhere but behind me then ultimately left.
Martinez,

Probably my fault. I should have emphasized the word "may" in my post. I think the two concepts could tie VERY well together. IMHO, the most important piece to any concept is impact alignments, and you have that down to a perfect science!

Kevin
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#80 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:15 AM

From what little I understand about S+T I like the sound of it. I've never really liked starting on my left axis, and originally I saw S+T as being severely that way. I now understand enough of it to know that 'it depends'.


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#81 calibrate

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:34 PM

Hi again Martinez,
---super vids, mate; just super. Wonderfully clear explanation of subtle concepts. Same for your posts. I have read and reread them. I have been getting the hang of the bow movement--to make it work really forces me to address my strong bad habit of rolling the wrists in the backswing. Question: when expanding away from the left side, I tend to straighten my leg a bit, whereas you don't... Problem? Just geezer lack of flex in the body? Nonetheless, I can divine the power behind this one-direction move and love how it brings the hands in close on the downswing. They kind of just appear there.

As a former cricketer (and baseball player), the front foot on the bucket drill made perfect sense after seeing the demo of the pull shot in vid #2. You really have to get on the back foot and rotate tightly to do a pull with any authority.

BTW, I've bought wholesale your putting routine that you mentioned in the Orr thread; just can't miss in extensive living room tests. It so gets rid of thinking...

thx again for taking the time to share these great concepts.

#82 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:57 PM

You're welcome mate. Really glad I could help.

Quote

As a former cricketer (and baseball player), the front foot on the bucket drill made perfect sense after seeing the demo of the pull shot in vid #2. You really have to get on the back foot and rotate tightly to do a pull with any authority.
Absolutely, you got it. :clapping:

#83 Poke

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:00 PM

Martinez,

I hit a bucket at the dome yesterday with the goal of consistently producing and storing energy with my body (full coil, free ride).  I tried to soft-focus on the ball without a care about ball flight, leaving accuracy for a later date.  Besides randomly hitting every conceivable window, including some belonging to my neighbors, I liked the results: great impact relative to effort on a shallower plane.  My hands and elbows felt fine when I was done, usually at the end of a large bucket off a mat I'm toast.      

Questions:

1. Do you ever feel like you're consciously lifting your arms during the BS? My best swings came when I felt like I was pulling my right hand straight back and letting the folding right arm elevate the club—free ride.

2. How do you reconcile having two targets, the ball at rest and where you want it to go?  I liked targeting the ball at address: my mind and body quiet (better tempo, less moving parts), but the other target is the one that counts.

Poke,

PS:  there was a strange synchronicity to the idiots in the stalls around me??????      

#84 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:46 PM

Poke, you are absolutely right to leave accuracy for later when you are trying to build new motions. You want to practice with full awareness of
your motion, and what it feels like internally. Once you have a feel for the energy and power that was your goal.....now start practicing 'golf'. Although they can really be complimentary to each other in the perfect action...accuracy and distance are not easily worked on at the same time. :D

Quote

Questions:

1. Do you ever feel like you're consciously lifting your arms during the BS? My best swings came when I felt like I was pulling my right hand straight back and letting the folding right arm elevate the club—free ride.
I am consciously reaching for the ground with my right elbow.

2. How do you reconcile having two targets, the ball at rest and where you want it to go? I liked targeting the ball at address: my mind and body quiet (better tempo, less moving parts), but the other target is the one that counts. I like to think of the other target as my destination. But the true answer to this is that it will come from you...your routine......targeting practice. I like to let my heart go out of my chest out to the target and I watch it beating while it's hanging on the flag. Can't really teach that kind of thing....just suggest that there is infinite possibilities of how you can connect. Spatial awareness is as important in golf as it is in sports like Basketball. We have the Universe playing defense.


#85 hogans71

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 05:09 PM

I have read this topic since you started it martinez and have enjoyed it thoroughly- many thanks! Just returned home from vacation where I happened to be practicing the same concept and while I was completely grasping the motion of the back swing thoughts of getting "stuck" occasionally crept into my mind on the follow through. Whether I did or not is another question. Perhaps mental, perhaps ball position needs adjusting for it to "seem right". Am very comfortable with incorporating these thoughts- just wanted your view on the initial move forward if you have time.
Thanks again...


#86 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 05:15 PM

Moe to Crossbow

Posted Image
At this point I'm into the crossbow and aiming the blade....if you look at the leading edge of the club....it is up and my hands are still aiming behind me while the shaft is being released by the pulling of my whole body.

You can see the result of both sides of the body pulling.................
Posted Image

And BTW....the way I struck the ball with this swing (this was yesterday) has me contemplating abandoning my search for a perfect left release.

Edited by martinez, 23 January 2009 - 05:47 PM.


#87 hogans71

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 05:32 PM

Again, many thanks- wonderful swing thoughts...
Have found my balance throughout to have improved as well- a byproduct of avoiding the occasional out-of-sync feeling I would imagine...

#88 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 05:43 PM

View Posthogans71, on Jan 24 2009, 08:09 AM, said:

I have read this topic since you started it martinez and have enjoyed it thoroughly- many thanks! Just returned home from vacation where I happened to be practicing the same concept and while I was completely grasping the motion of the back swing thoughts of getting "stuck" occasionally crept into my mind on the follow through. Whether I did or not is another question. Perhaps mental, perhaps ball position needs adjusting for it to "seem right". Am very comfortable with incorporating these thoughts- just wanted your view on the initial move forward if you have time.
Thanks again...
Getting stuck is an interesting problem in the golf swing. I used to get stuck all the time, drove me out of the game into the backwater.
Getting stuck is a direct result of attacking the ball. If you swing your hands at the ball there is two most likely results. If you stay on your right leg you will slice it......if like most good players you get more toward your left pivot point you will drop under the plane(stuck) and block it/pull hook/dome hook it.

So swing off the ball, pivot well then rotate hard through after aiming the blade behind you.

We have to let go of some pre-conceived ideas and throw out some supposed conventional wisdom if we are to achieve the kind of striking we are looking for. Our natural instinct is to hit the ball, to swing toward it...we know what Mr. Hogan said about natural instincts.

Quote

Again, many thanks- wonderful swing thoughts...
Have found my balance throughout to have improved as well- a byproduct of avoiding the occasional out-of-sync feeling I would imagine...
you're welcome.

Edited by martinez, 23 January 2009 - 05:44 PM.


#89 sevam1

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 06:07 PM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 23 2009, 06:15 PM, said:

Moe to Crossbow

Posted Image
At this point I'm into the crossbow and aiming the blade....if you look at the leading edge of the club....it is up and my hands are still aiming behind me while the shaft is being released by the pulling of my whole body.

You can see the result of both sides of the body pulling.................
Posted Image

And BTW....the way I struck the ball with this swing (this was yesterday) has me contemplating abandoning my search for a perfect left release.


As Ben Hogan once said to Moe ..."Just keep hitting those accidents!"

Sevam1

#90 martinez

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 06:23 PM

Accidents indeed.The power of the strike is what may draw me to this, which is kind of ironic given how short Moe hit it. ;)

Edited by martinez, 23 January 2009 - 06:24 PM.


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