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A different concept for a golf swing (merged)


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#31 Thaxx

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:40 PM

I think I just figured out why I'm hitting so well, and longer. I don't think my arms were fulling in sync with my core. This gives me the feeling of togetherness, with the arms and core. Just as Slicefixer describes in his instruction. I guess it just takes different ways of doing the same thing for some people to get it.
Thanks again.
Mike


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#32 Siteseer2

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:03 PM

Martinez;  Just some random thoughts meant to flesh out the ideas, not be critcal of them...
Your closer to Hardy's one plane swing than maybe you know... he calls it a lawnmower pull... you call it a cross bow.. Your's  lacks width, and pulling that close to your right side is going to get most over-rotated with the hips, and across the line... Hardy wants the 'pull' at 45 degree angle thereby giving width...
Once you get the right arm that deep, then what... for most unless the right elbow stays up and back, while there is a big body pivot left, your going to come dead over the top, or conversely if you get that deep your going to be 'stuck', and have come under the plane and then flip to square the club...
If the solution is to keep the club more out front with a steeper and deeper shoulder turn, then why the crossbow pull to begin with, wouldn't a S&T move accomplish the same, but with the benfit of not having the arm so deep...
Also, looking at part 2, the swing as you have constructed will have an arc that is wide and shallow, once you tilt your spine to the right it will make it wider and shallower-- almost a sure recipe for fat or blocked (or flipped)... which means there will need to be some serious steepening at some point in the downswing to compensate...
Your actually closer to Hogan pre-changes where he got deep, and the right elbow more in front of the hip on the dwonswing which meant the club was behind him and open, and he had to rotate his forearm like mad to square the club...
Maybe I'm missing something?

Edited by Siteseer2, 19 January 2009 - 06:21 PM.


#33 downtoscratch

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:16 PM

sightseer,
               Also not intended to be critical but perhaps you should view those videos again..... your
questions tell a lot about what you've missed. What you already know about Hardy seems to have
clouded your vision with respect to martinez. Width (expansion)is the keynote of what he's after whether you can see it or not. It's directed differently than what you know but if you see any evidence of martinez getting "stuck" report it right away. It's not my intention to defend martinez's work but I
think you should have another go.  dts

#34 Siteseer2

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:31 PM

DTS:  With Martinez's athleticism, he could hit good shots standing on his head... I was commenting on his swing theory... and noting where I thought appropriate... others can weigh in and maybe this will lead to some good discussion and education...

#35 stevestrike

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:15 PM

I found that feeling this move puts me in danger of a reverse pivot.  I have to be careful to not do that.  What feel/move do you you use to keep this from happening to you?

Also, I have the three swings in super-slo mo.  I will post them to Youtube with martinez's permission.


#36 KOC

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 08:38 PM

To me, that is not a different idea…that is good idea…Hula like pivot; Compound pivot; crossbow...or whatsoever you need to clear the right hip…

Attached File  c.jpg   20.42K   30 downloads

#37 martinez

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:03 PM

I am going to use a DJ trick because there is so many questions and I dont want to miss them my words will be in bold inside the quotes....

View PostPoke, on Jan 20 2009, 07:57 AM, said:

Martinez,

That's some serious insight.  As you know, I got to bow from another source, but would of never of got the crossbow on my own--can't wait to try it.

Some observations:

When I pull all the way through my backswing limitations into transition, it automates a full shoulder turn.  Man that's been a serious flaw in my swing :black eye: .

For at least a good part of the basic swing, the trail hand thumb and index finger are superfulous.  I pull right through transition with the two middle fingers on my right hand, even in the downswing, the hold off (feels like I'm pinning my left arm against my chest) presure is against the same fingers. Since I was trying all sorts ways to release the stored power, I'm not so sure about impact and the finish.
PRESSURE is what it's all about you are feeling the forces of acceleration now, not speed.........you can't feel speed, only sense it.

As I expand back into my limitations it feels like I get a free ride up, while my feet torque deeply into the ground--your double helix musings make perfect sense.
I'm glad you feel that because it means you are truly expanding as opposed to turning.
At its extreme is the crossbow a free ride to impact?
The crossbow is aiming the blade....think of the arrow as a sword that has one sharp edge. The sharp edge moves in a figure 8. Would love to hear some guesses as to where the blade is on the club. I could tell you what I feel but I think it's important that we understand the blade concept from our own experimentation. Where you aim the blade controls every aspect of the strike and consequently the flight of the ball. We don't swing the blade....we pressure it and let it loose.


View PostThaxx, on Jan 20 2009, 07:59 AM, said:

I just tried this in my back yard. I have about 120 yards to hit.
I hit my 56 degree about 90 to 100 yards.
   I only saw the the first video on the backswing. And I don't think I will watch the second. Because It was the most effortless swing I have ever made. It almost made me forget about the forward swing. It just happened.

I have been emulating  the slicefixer pivot. (as I feel it is meant to be done)
The one thing I feel the most for some reason is the right wrist keeping it's angle throughout the swing. I have never senced this before.
Again the pressure created by the BS great stuff. To any who have a PBS or understand what it does...........The pull on the arrow pressures or places the bow under load. Don't push on the arrow you pull it into you.
  Anyway, back to the back yard. I was hitting over the fence into the neighbors yard with a soft draw. It gave me a instant 20 yards on my 56er.
Thanks for your thoughts. Can't wait to try it on my other clubs.
Mike


View PostSiteseer2, on Jan 20 2009, 09:03 AM, said:

Martinez;  Just some random thoughts meant to flesh out the ideas, not be critcal of them...
Your closer to Hardy's one plane swing than maybe you know... he calls it a lawnmower pull... you call it a cross bow.. Your's  lacks width, and pulling that close to your right side is going to get most over-rotated with the hips, and across the line... Hardy wants the 'pull' at 45 degree angle thereby giving width...

I'm not 100% familiar with JH's work as I said I'm not trained in any method....But if you saw the piece on reaching left with the left you'll understand that it shouldn't get you over rotated, in fact it should be impossible to over do anything as you should be perfectly balanced at that point.
Once you get the right arm that deep, then what... for most unless the right elbow stays up and back, while there is a big body pivot left, your going to come dead over the top, or conversely if you get that deep your going to be 'stuck', and have come under the plane and then flip to square the club...
The elbow is being pulled behind by the pivot so I don't feel it's any deeper than my pivot takes it. Of course when my left hand is not on the club and if my left side wasn't reaching left I might get stuck.
If the solution is to keep the club more out front with a steeper and deeper shoulder turn, then why the crossbow pull to begin with, wouldn't a S&T move accomplish the same, but with the benfit of not having the arm so deep...
Also, looking at part 2, the swing as you have constructed will have an arc that is wide and shallow, once you tilt your spine to the right it will make it wider and shallower-- almost a sure recipe for fat or blocked (or flipped)... which means there will need to be some serious steepening at some point in the downswing to compensate...
Your actually closer to Hogan pre-changes where he got deep, and the right elbow more in front of the hip on the dwonswing which meant the club was behind him and open, and he had to rotate his forearm like mad to square the club...
Maybe I'm missing something?
What you're missing is that the expansion in the right side means I can pressure the club down......counter the rising mass as it makes its arc to the top of the BS. This pressure down against the rising mass allows me to turn through the ball on one plane. Simultaneously pressure is exerting itself up and down which traps the club on plane.....there's nowhere for it to go.


View Postdowntoscratch, on Jan 20 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

sightseer,
               Also not intended to be critical but perhaps you should view those videos again..... your
questions tell a lot about what you've missed. What you already know about Hardy seems to have
clouded your vision with respect to martinez.
I think so too, and it is understandable, there are a great many things that people will have to forget they know in order to truly get what I'm saying, I should know...I have erased many things from my fund of knowledge as I know see them as the antithesis of my true swing.

Width (expansion)is the keynote of what he's after whether you can see it or not. It's directed differently than what you know but if you see any evidence of martinez getting "stuck" report it right away. It's not my intention to defend martinez's work but I
think you should have another go.  dts
You get me mate, you had me at width. EXPANSION.


View Poststevestrike, on Jan 20 2009, 10:15 AM, said:

I found that feeling this move puts me in danger of a reverse pivot.  I have to be careful to not do that.  What feel/move do you you use to keep this from happening to you?
Make sure you're pulling away from your left heel with your right side (Bow) and Turn your whole EXPANDED right side behind your left. A reverse pivot can only occur around a closed chest and compressed lower spine.
Also, I have the three swings in super-slo mo.  I will post them to Youtube with martinez's permission.
Permission granted in perpetuity :friends:


#38 stevestrike

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:52 PM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 19 2009, 08:03 PM, said:

Make sure you're pulling away from your left heel with your right side (Bow) and Turn your whole EXPANDED right side behind your left. A reverse pivot can only occur around a closed chest and compressed lower spine.
What a great swing thought!  It's too dark to go hit balls right now, but the feeling of expanding back is tremendous.  I can feel a tension in my left hip/leg that I've never felt before, (which I hope is a good thing).  I'll definitely have to hit the range tomorrow and try it out, but on video at my house (my wife thinks I'm crazy) the expansion feeling gives my swing a whole new look that I really like.  

The slo-mo videos are forthcoming, folks...
Three swings, four speeds each.  This is the best quality I could get with the youtube file.  Enjoy!


Edited by stevestrike, 20 January 2009 - 09:17 AM.


#39 martinez

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 11:50 PM

That sounds great steve. Another poster gave me some advice regarding my swing via PM (I have a new favorite club) it has really enhanced my feeling of the crossbow moving through to the finish. As I have said in other posts my swing was not the finished product because I wanted to eliminate the stall in my pivot. The stall doesn't change the backswing and transition but it does limit the ball flights I can produce.

More later.

#40 downtoscratch

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 12:18 PM

I'll bite.......... what's your new favorite club?  dts


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#41 martinez

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 04:11 PM

8 iron. :P

I have to make a third part here to explain more about the arms....because after watching my vids again I don't do a good job with talking about aiming the blade.....I just mentioned it and moved on.

#42 Tanner25

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 05:31 PM

Martinez,

How do you go from such rigid movements to explain your concepts to such a smooth
swing. That is my problem with golf instructions, I seem to make the swing with the exagerations that are shown and I can never duplicate the smoothness.

Just years of practice?

A

#43 martinez

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:47 AM

View Postaslan, on Jan 21 2009, 08:31 AM, said:

Martinez,

How do you go from such rigid movements to explain your concepts to such a smooth
swing. That is my problem with golf instructions, I seem to make the swing with the exagerations that are shown and I can never duplicate the smoothness.

Just years of practice?

A
The rigid movements you are seeing are just my internal feel. My swing may look smooth, but don't mistake that for effortless. I am working pretty hard in my swing, but because I am not trying to move anything independently it looks very smooth. I hope that answers your ?

#44 Shal

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 05:11 AM

In few hours I can go to practice range, but even before I'll try to do some swings, I really like to thank you greatly because in last months I always had some trouble to truly understand a good backswing movement and these videos seems to explain it so clearly, at least for what I always missed in other explanation!
I wish to you a really nice day!!!
Thank you very much

#45 Squish

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:36 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 17 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

I've been PM'ed many times asking for clarification of some of my more 'different' posts. I realize that some of my ideas may be hard to understand......especially given my trouble in just using words to describe them.

I have made a video based on my concept of pulling a bow, then moving it into a crossbow. That's the image I have......the feel, but I believe the swing itself is pretty simple.

I hope they both help make sense of any posts I may have made to this point and that these videos can help some people get a more powerful and easily repeated action.

Powerful Golf Concept part 1/2

Part 2 is up....and live.... the link is here....

Powerful Golf Concept part 2/2

Cheers
Martinez


Excellent drill.
Better than the lawnmower pull concept.
Your imagary keeps the 7th cervical top of the spine very still and promotes turn.

I use this drill over the winter months.
rope drill


#46 martinez

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:58 AM

View PostShal, on Jan 21 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

In few hours I can go to practice range, but even before I'll try to do some swings, I really like to thank you greatly because in last months I always had some trouble to truly understand a good backswing movement and these videos seems to explain it so clearly, at least for what I always missed in other explanation!
I wish to you a really nice day!!!
Thank you very much
You're welcome mate....good luck with it.

View PostSquish, on Jan 21 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

View Postmartinez, on Jan 17 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

I've been PM'ed many times asking for clarification of some of my more 'different' posts. I realize that some of my ideas may be hard to understand......especially given my trouble in just using words to describe them.

I have made a video based on my concept of pulling a bow, then moving it into a crossbow. That's the image I have......the feel, but I believe the swing itself is pretty simple.

I hope they both help make sense of any posts I may have made to this point and that these videos can help some people get a more powerful and easily repeated action.

Powerful Golf Concept part 1/2

Part 2 is up....and live.... the link is here....

Powerful Golf Concept part 2/2

Cheers
Martinez


Excellent drill.
Better than the lawnmower pull concept.
Your imagary keeps the 7th cervical top of the spine very still and promotes turn.

I use this drill over the winter months.
rope drill
It's the foucalt pendulum Squish. Straight lines that aren't really straight....a figure 8. BTW I can't see that vid as I can't get the plugin needed for whatever reason.

#47 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 07:44 AM

Like this....................

#48 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 07:48 AM

Link to rope drill..............       http://www.peacerive...learn/pivot.htm

#49 Ezgolfer

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Martinez ,

Great concept ... Helped me in coiling more and i was striking it well on range . Need to loosen up and blend it in motion . It will take some time .

Looking forward to the blade direction video.

Sevam knocked of a bit of right knee striaghtening  . You got me do  the  proper coiling on backswing . It is coming together .

Now if i can drop the club in slot like hogan it would be great .

#50 martinez

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:00 AM

View PostEzgolfer, on Jan 21 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

Thanks Martinez ,

Great concept ... Helped me in coiling more and i was striking it well on range . Need to loosen up and blend it in motion . It will take some time .

Looking forward to the blade direction video.

Sevam knocked of a bit of right knee striaghtening  . You got me do  the  proper coiling on backswing . It is coming together .

Now if i can drop the club in slot like hogan it would be great .
Good stuff EZ. You should have it in the slot straight away....Pivot to arms to club being pulled off the ball.....the club goes behind your back but is still in front of your hands. The whole advantage of this BS. Is that making any sense at all? Video 1/2........ 0.35-0.42

@Squish

The pic..........I'll be honest I'm having a hard time focusing on it, I don't think I'm a very visual person when it comes to these patterns, more I feel it in my gut.

I like that Cowan video.......similar indeed in terms of my pivot. I will search more of his stuff now, sounds like an interesting guy. Most of my body motion ideas have come from training in Gyrotonic and then applying those principles. His spiral staircase is right up that alley.

And I'm out for the night it's getting late here ;)

Edited by martinez, 21 January 2009 - 09:01 AM.


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#51 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:40 AM

martinez said.........the club goes behind your back but is still in front of your hands. The whole advantage of this BS. (assuming the BS is not BS but Short for backswing!!!)

Here's an image (the top three frames) that depicts the very essence of the statement above.
Joyce Wethered aka Lady Heathcoat-Amory, of whom Bobby Jones remarked, "best swing I've ever
seen, man or woman"................. dts

Edited by downtoscratch, 21 January 2009 - 09:43 AM.


#52 jebb

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:06 AM

Do I have to wear the hat and tweed jacket while doing this?
That Aint Billy Bob!!

#53 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:20 AM

It might help. I sure would if that swing came with the outfit!   dts

#54 honketyhank

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:37 AM

View Postjebb, on Jan 21 2009, 07:06 AM, said:

Do I have to wear the hat and tweed jacket while doing this?

If you can swing inside that skirt, you can certainly swing inside a barrel.

#55 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:29 PM

martinez,  Taking another look at your Bucket Drill swings it occurs to me that the bucket under the right foot.... weight loaded left, has the effect, in your case anyway, of retarding the passage of the right shoulder through to a complete finish. The bucket under the left foot,weight loaded right, allows a full flourish through the hitting area as concerns the shoulders.The right arm in this case climbs into the clouds ala Hogan... at least to my eye. Just an observation............ draw your own conclusions.  DTS

Edited by downtoscratch, 21 January 2009 - 01:02 PM.


#56 martinez

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 02:36 PM

View Postdowntoscratch, on Jan 22 2009, 03:29 AM, said:

martinez,  Taking another look at your Bucket Drill swings it occurs to me that the bucket  under the right foot.... weight loaded left, has the effect, in your case anyway, of retarding  the passage of the right shoulder through to a complete finish. The bucket under the left foot, weight loaded right, allows a full flourish through the hitting area as concerns the shoulders. The right arm in this case climbs into the clouds ala Hogan... at least to my eye. Just an observation............ draw your own conclusions.  DTS

I have so many things I get from those drills, but in the case of climbing into the clouds...I posted this video some time ago...it received not even a murmur of comment so I just let it drop.

Ben Hogan Expanding through the ball

#57 mastayoou

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 04:21 PM

SHORYU-KEN!!!

i like the street fighter concept

#58 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 04:46 PM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 21 2009, 02:36 PM, said:

View Postdowntoscratch, on Jan 22 2009, 03:29 AM, said:

martinez,  Taking another look at your Bucket Drill swings it occurs to me that the bucket  under the right foot.... weight loaded left, has the effect, in your case anyway, of retarding  the passage of the right shoulder through to a complete finish. The bucket under the left foot, weight loaded right, allows a full flourish through the hitting area as concerns the shoulders. The right arm in this case climbs into the clouds ala Hogan... at least to my eye. Just an observation............ draw your own conclusions.  DTS

I have so many things I get from those drills, but in the case of climbing into the clouds...I posted this video some time ago...it received not even a murmur of comment so I just let it drop.

Ben Hogan Expanding through the ball

IMO you should pick it back up again........... for yourself. It just spells Hogan to me.  dts

#59 martinez

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:37 PM

I haven't dropped it from my game....just didn't bother forcing it down others throats ;)

I will say that it is a movement that is well designed to retard a closing clubface.

Edited by martinez, 21 January 2009 - 09:45 PM.


#60 downtoscratch

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:42 PM

What would you say are the chief benefits of this drill done either way.......... for YOU?  Thanks, DTS


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