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A different concept for a golf swing (merged)


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#1 martinez

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:06 PM

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EAUU5OXIfwk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

New video - The anatomical wall.

I've been PM'ed many times asking for clarification of some of my more 'different' posts. I realize that some of my ideas may be hard to understand......especially given my trouble in just using words to describe them.

I have made a video based on my concept of pulling a bow, then moving it into a crossbow. That's the image I have......the feel, but I believe the swing itself is pretty simple.

I hope they both help make sense of any posts I may have made to this point and that these videos can help some people get a more powerful and easily repeated action. Here's a before and after I had this epiphany regarding the swing and got away from the old adage of turn/turn...
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syY-a1nCOLA"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=syY-a1nCOLA[/url]


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G9gcvcRRWGo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Powerful Golf Concept part 1/2

Part 2 is up....and live.... the link is here....


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rrKDbhC6lVg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Powerful Golf Concept part 2/2

Part 3 is up an live


Putting Lessons

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jOa1X1iySjI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
PUTTING LESSON PART 1


<iframe width="420" height="315"  src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2HothNq6j8g?rel=0" frameborder="0"  allowfullscreen></iframe>
PUTTING LESSON PART 2


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jOa1X1iySjI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Golf Lesson Part 1 ...........a bow to crossbow update.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2HothNq6j8g?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Golf Lesson Part 2 ........... more of the same plus a piece on cross eye dominance.



Cheers
Martinez


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#2 Jeff Evans

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:36 PM

Martinez,

I love it!

Right On Mate!

#3 Shaitan

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:59 PM

Are you a teaching pro, Martinez? Or just a swing-enthusiast? Just interested in knowing :)

#4 kevcarter

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:00 PM

Beautiful!
I could be wrong.
I have been before.
I will be again.
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#5 martinez

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:05 PM

Former player in Australasia. I do teach.............. but I'm definitely going back to playing in the near future.

Jeff and Kev....thanks for the words, would love your feedback on part 2 if I can ever get it uploaded.

Edited by martinez, 17 January 2009 - 11:10 PM.


#6 kevcarter

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:25 PM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 17 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Former player in Australasia. I do teach.............. but I'm definitely going back to playing in the near future.

Jeff and Kev....thanks for the words, would love your feedback on part 2 if I can ever get it uploaded.

I'm heading to bed Pro, but I will watch for it first thing in the morning. I have said before how much I like your golf swing. Now I think you are onto a great way to teach it! Look forward to typing at you tomorrow.

Kevin
I could be wrong.
I have been before.
I will be again.
========================================
GEOMETRICALLY ORIENTED LINEAR FORCE
========================================

#7 xiaoxiong

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:47 PM

Loving it!!!

Your swing is amazing, your way of describing the swing is GREAT!!!

:clapping:

#8 martinez

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:54 PM

View Postxiaoxiong, on Jan 18 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

Loving it!!!

Your swing is amazing, your way of describing the swing is GREAT!!!

:clapping:

Thanks mate. :friends:

The link to part 2 is up hopefully makes things even clearer....:D

#9 rok78

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:28 AM

Good stuff. Glad to get some visuals to your expansion ideas. Would you say if I put it in very simple terms - a pull off the ball with the right-side, and then a pull towards the target with the left side on the downswing?
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#10 martinez

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:36 AM

View Postrok78, on Jan 18 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

Good stuff. Glad to get some visuals to your expansion ideas. Would you say if I put it in very simple terms - a pull off the ball with the right-side, and then a pull towards the target with the left side on the downswing?

I think the most accurate way to describe it is that you are pulling everything away from 'your' target on the downswing, which is the ball. Initially when I got this backswing nailed down I couldn't figure out why I was still slinging DTL. Where it has improved, and has room for improvement for me.....is that I pull with the right side also. Maintaining my angles and pulling in the direction of increasing those angles.

Cheers
Martinez


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#11 Shaitan

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:38 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 18 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Former player in Australasia. I do teach.............. but I'm definitely going back to playing in the near future.

Jeff and Kev....thanks for the words, would love your feedback on part 2 if I can ever get it uploaded.

Aye. I love your explanation of the backswing, makes me think of a much smoother description of "starting the mower" move that Jim Hardy talks of. Great use of descriptive language!

#12 Tiltswing

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:48 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 17 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

I've been PM'ed many times asking for clarification of some of my more 'different' posts. I realize that some of my ideas may be hard to understand......especially given my trouble in just using words to describe them.

I have made a video based on my concept of pulling a bow, then moving it into a crossbow. That's the image I have......the feel, but I believe the swing itself is pretty simple.

I hope they both help make sense of any posts I may have made to this point and that these videos can help some people get a more powerful and easily repeated action.

Powerful Golf Concept part 1/2

Part 2 is up....and live.... the link is here....

Powerful Golf Concept part 2/2

Cheers
Martinez

Your swing is excellent.

#13 martinez

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:58 AM

View PostShaitan, on Jan 18 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

View Postmartinez, on Jan 18 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Former player in Australasia. I do teach.............. but I'm definitely going back to playing in the near future.

Jeff and Kev....thanks for the words, would love your feedback on part 2 if I can ever get it uploaded.

Aye. I love your explanation of the backswing, makes me think of a much smoother description of "starting the mower" move that Jim Hardy talks of. Great use of descriptive language!
Cheers mate....Where do you play in BrisVegas? As far as I know a lot of the Hardy takeaway for one plane is similar in direction to what I'm doing but the real advantage of this action for me is the clubface control.....I don't literally get my elbow as far back which would shut the face a bit, the back is the direction of the initial move. The transition to cross bow happens before the elbow gets behind me. You can do it super early like Tiger or later and more pronounced like Hogan.

I will make another video very soon of the use of the arms in aiming the blade/arrow.


View PostTiltswing, on Jan 18 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

Your swing is excellent.

Thanks Tilt.

#14 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 05:18 AM

that was great  :good: did you teach before ?

i had experimented with a bow like backswing before so when i saw your posts i always found them interesting.
i never understood your turning it into a crossbow reference, the video helps a lot.
can you do a slow-mo video?
cant wait to see the arm vids, while watching the 2nd vid i was trying to visualize the arrow @ 2:00 and it looked like you where throwing an imaginary spear, does that make any sense or is all the archery references messing with my head ?

Edited by JOEGOLFWRX, 18 January 2009 - 05:19 AM.


#15 martinez

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 06:34 AM

View PostJOEGOLFWRX, on Jan 18 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

that was great  :good: did you teach before ?

i had experimented with a bow like backswing before so when i saw your posts i always found them interesting.
i never understood your turning it into a crossbow reference, the video helps a lot.
can you do a slow-mo video?
cant wait to see the arm vids, while watching the 2nd vid i was trying to visualize the arrow @ 2:00 and it looked like you where throwing an imaginary spear, does that make any sense or is all the archery references messing with my head ?

Being that I come from a playing background.........I was always well......GOD...out of the crap. I was better than anyone I have ever met from trouble. I had imagination out the yin YANG. My problem is I could never hit the ball anywhere near where I was aiming if there was no obstacle in the way. Worst thing could happen to me is I hit the fairway......

That is why I'm so excited by this discovery. Because quite frankly I feel like I own the flight of the ball physically like I always did mentally. I want to share this with people as much as I can because after at least a dozen years of hating this game I love it again......

WRT your imaginary spear. The club is a blade...it has a sharp side and blunt sides. It's up to you how you use this weapon to create shots........I have merely shown you how to extract maximum leverage from it with minimum movement.

I certainly don't plan on giving up everything WRT the blade and how to aim it....If you cannot do that yourself then it wont stick anyway imo.


#16 Dariusz J.

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:58 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 17 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

I've been PM'ed many times asking for clarification of some of my more 'different' posts. I realize that some of my ideas may be hard to understand......especially given my trouble in just using words to describe them.

I have made a video based on my concept of pulling a bow, then moving it into a crossbow. That's the image I have......the feel, but I believe the swing itself is pretty simple.

I hope they both help make sense of any posts I may have made to this point and that these videos can help some people get a more powerful and easily repeated action.

Powerful Golf Concept part 1/2

Part 2 is up....and live.... the link is here....

Powerful Golf Concept part 2/2

Cheers
Martinez


Excellent job, Martinez ! I mean it. Your vids are the best in the net I've found so far to show what is the relation of both lead and rear parts of the body and how to use them correctly in order to introduce a great amount of automatism into the motion.   :clapping:

Two issues that I feel the need to discuss are:

1. the backswing performed via the rear side pulling is entirely correct one, as we both already know; however, your bow analogy sort of puts the squeeze on the rear elbow leading the parade - according to my researches, better results are obtained if you connotate the rear side adduction with your entire rear side of the  body pulling (adducting), because pulling via the rear limb (or a part of the limb) makes it harder to benefit from natural limitation of the rear hip turn since the arm join the body at the shoulder area and has no direct link to the hip joint.
It is not a matter of very big importance, but I guess it can be sort of important for average amateurs who often suffer from incorrect pelvis motion. They would need to feel the limitation in the hip area that occurs sooner that in the shoulder area and forces the pelvis to start the downswing linearily before the shoulders finish their backswing, so to speak.

2. your visualizations of others sports that I know, unfortunately, from the TV ot YouTube only, i.e. baseball or cricket, and their relation to golf are marvellous. This validates the rear side adduction concept even more - you need to pull back unintentionally in order to create a proper amount of leverage; have you merged those sports with the Diagonal Stance concept ? I surely have and now I am even more convinced that this concept is very sound from a biomechanical point of view. The more, as I could see, your stance appears to be slightly diagonal per se watching your beautiful swing from the DTL.

Thank you for those great vids once again. They can show to all how some great concepts (not necessarily only those that have been discussed in the BioThread) look from the perspective of a real player and not only from the perspective of a pure theory. Lots of learn from you, mate. :)

Cheers

#17 downtoscratch

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 09:15 AM

Nicely done martinez, nicely done.  DTS

#18 Tanner25

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 09:26 AM

View Postmartinez, on Jan 18 2009, 12:36 AM, said:

View Postrok78, on Jan 18 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

Good stuff. Glad to get some visuals to your expansion ideas. Would you say if I put it in very simple terms - a pull off the ball with the right-side, and then a pull towards the target with the left side on the downswing?

I think the most accurate way to describe it is that you are pulling everything away from 'your' target on the downswing, which is the ball. Initially when I got this backswing nailed down I couldn't figure out why I was still slinging DTL. Where it has improved, and has room for improvement for me.....is that I pull with the right side also. Maintaining my angles and pulling in the direction of increasing those angles.

Cheers
Martinez

Great, Vid - thx, for sharing it with the world. I think we all understand the backswing. It's the DW that gives most higher handicap players the trouble. So, it's pull the bow back - love it and the feeling of leverage. Much better than pull the lawn mower, then it's a hip bump ( getting into a cross bow position?) and keeping the right side away until impact? You make a hip bump motion. But, didn't comment about it here. Thx, Mate!

Edited by aslan, 18 January 2009 - 09:28 AM.


#19 martinez

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 02:44 PM

View PostDariusz J., on Jan 18 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

Excellent job, Martinez ! I mean it. Your vids are the best in the net I've found so far to show what is the relation of both lead and rear parts of the body and how to use them correctly in order to introduce a great amount of automatism into the motion.   :clapping:

Two issues that I feel the need to discuss are:

1. the backswing performed via the rear side pulling is entirely correct one, as we both already know; however, your bow analogy sort of puts the squeeze on the rear elbow leading the parade - according to my researches, better results are obtained if you connotate the rear side adduction with your entire rear side of the  body pulling (adducting), because pulling via the rear limb (or a part of the limb) makes it harder to benefit from natural limitation of the rear hip turn since the arm join the body at the shoulder area and has no direct link to the hip joint.
It is not a matter of very big importance, but I guess it can be sort of important for average amateurs who often suffer from incorrect pelvis motion. They would need to feel the limitation in the hip area that occurs sooner that in the shoulder area and forces the pelvis to start the downswing linearily before the shoulders finish their backswing, so to speak.
I agree with what you're saying here. The elbow is primarily used as an aiming device. It does add to the leverage but it is not the cause of the leverage....the expansion of the right side from the ground off the ball and off the left side is the main leverage. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that the elbow is the instigator of the pulling.

Thanks DJ for your comments, they are always most welcome.

View Postdowntoscratch, on Jan 19 2009, 12:15 AM, said:

Nicely done martinez, nicely done.  DTS
Thanks mate.


View Postaslan, on Jan 19 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

Great, Vid - thx, for sharing it with the world. I think we all understand the backswing. It's the DW that gives most higher handicap players the trouble. So, it's pull the bow back - love it and the feeling of leverage. Much better than pull the lawn mower, then it's a hip bump ( getting into a cross bow position?) and keeping the right side away until impact? You make a hip bump motion. But, didn't comment about it here. Thx, Mate!
It's my contention that very few people understand the backswing....and that if they did they would understand how damn simple this game can really be.

The hip bump that you describe is the pelvis having reached it's limitation rearward continuing to search for rearward leverage.

Thanks for your comments mate, I  really appreciate the feedback.

#20 stevestrike

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 09:36 PM

martinez, thanks for sharing your videos.  Your bit on the takeway at 1:15 (1st video) was a lightbulb moment for me.


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#21 martinez

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:25 PM

View Poststevestrike, on Jan 19 2009, 12:36 PM, said:

martinez, thanks for sharing your videos.  Your bit on the takeway at 1:15 (1st video) was a lightbulb moment for me.

I'm glad that helped you. I was really pleased by how well that bit showed up. It was really easy to see the direct nature of the way I plane it.
Cheers
Martinez

#22 PurePursuit

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:39 PM

Excellent work martinez.  Now if you want to turn in an even tighter barrell without a lot of lateral motion on the backswing/downswing try setting up how Slice advocates (reverse K).  You still have some crossover/sling release but its not bad.  Your a serious athlete so it seems like you can swing it any which way.

#23 birdieblair

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:46 PM

Martinez,
  Really awesome stuff!  I have been working on the movement of the right arm in the swing and I must say that the bow to crossbow analogy is very helpful.  I watched the videos a couple of times now and really think the concept is great.  Thanks for sharing!

#24 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 11:12 PM

can you do a bit more on the crossbow imagery on the next vid, is it a reference to stored lag that you can release whenever you want to pull the trigger in your swing as it were, or is it a reference to aiming the arrow, if its aiming where is it aiming, when is it aimed, when does it become a cross bow etc.

sorry for the confusion, im sure its my own bow pulling backswing experiments that are causing the mental block and not your skills at teaching.

#25 martinez

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 11:28 PM

I'm heading back to the office ;) right now. I might get one of my students to film me and I'll try to add a little info on aiming the bow/arrow/blade etc.

@PurePursuit I would really like to meet Mr. Fixer. I'm half tempted to go to that Atlanta deal in April (even though it's a 24 hour flight) I've always wanted to see Augusta anyway. As far as the reverse K......... I may check that out, I'm looking for anyway to make the swing I feel now and get more left so that I can keep the right side moving.


#26 mastayoou

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:19 PM

very nice... i always felt i was doing something wrong on my backswing and this really helped me grasp the concept... i can really feel the energy storing up on my right side.. something i have felt before but didnt know how to get there... with this simple idea i feel like i can repeat it time and time again... and it feels natural

please do post some slowmotion video when you have time

#27 jabirdaz

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:58 PM

Nice translation by a feel player, for the feel player. Don't worry about a loss for words - it's nice and simple as is!

Tight...

#28 martinez

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:57 PM

View Postmastayoou, on Jan 20 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

very nice... i always felt i was doing something wrong on my backswing and this really helped me grasp the concept... i can really feel the energy storing up on my right side.. something i have felt before but didnt know how to get there... with this simple idea i feel like i can repeat it time and time again... and it feels natural

please do post some slowmotion video when you have time

Have you tried using a you tube downloader.....you could watch frame by frame if you have the right media player.

I'm glad you enjoyed the vids. More to come.

Quote

Nice translation by a feel player, for the feel player. Don't worry about a loss for words - it's nice and simple as is!

Thanks mate....Anyone feel free to pick holes in my ideas using technical info, I think I can back up my 'feels' with a solid reasoning although I have no formal training so go easy on the TGM stuff. :P.

#29 Poke

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 04:57 PM

Martinez,

That's some serious insight.  As you know, I got to bow from another source, but would of never of got the crossbow on my own--can't wait to try it.

Some observations:

When I pull all the way through my backswing limitations into transition, it automates a full shoulder turn.  Man that's been a serious flaw in my swing :black eye: .

For at least a good part of the basic swing, the trail hand thumb and index finger are superfulous.  I pull right through transition with the two middle fingers on my right hand, even in the downswing, the hold off (feels like I'm pinning my left arm against my chest) presure is against the same fingers. Since I was trying all sorts ways to release the stored power, I'm not so sure about impact and the finish.

As I expand back into my limitations it feels like I get a free ride up, while my feet torque deeply into the ground--your double helix musings make perfect sense.

At its extreme is the crossbow a free ride to impact?

#30 Thaxx

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 04:59 PM

I just tried this in my back yard. I have about 120 yards to hit.
I hit my 56 degree about 90 to 100 yards.
   I only saw the the first video on the backswing. And I don't think I will watch the second. Because It was the most effortless swing I have ever made. It almost made me forget about the forward swing. It just happened.

I have been emulating  the slicefixer pivot. (as I feel it is meant to be done)
The one thing I feel the most for some reason is the right wrist keeping it's angle throughout the swing. I have never senced this before.

  Anyway, back to the back yard. I was hitting over the fence into the neighbors yard with a soft draw. It gave me a instant 20 yards on my 56er.
Thanks for your thoughts. Can't wait to try it on my other clubs.
Mike

Edited by Thaxx, 19 January 2009 - 04:59 PM.


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