[BS66]

What's an acceptable pace of play on a nice/challenging course on a booked Saturday?

At what point do you just say screw it and walk off? I have a buddy that will literally have a hissy fit and walk off if the front nine takes too long. I'm more of the ilk that playing golf is better than anything else I could be doing so if it takes a little extra time, then so be it.

[yuck]

3:30 to 4:15 depending on how early. 4:15 is hard to tolerate, but it is so prevalent that we have to accept it. The slow players (4:15) more ability to slow down all of the normal / quick players then the quick players have to speed up the slow-pokes. There are people who don't believe they are slow or that 4:15 is too long to take to play a round of golf. It is regional, since when I lived in the Midwest, 5 hours was possible. In other places I have lived that would not be tolerated.

[italianstallion]

I work at one of the most difficult courses in my area. Its $59 to ride on a Saturday or Sunday which is about $20 more than most place charge around us. We stimp the greens at 12 in the summer which is much faster than most people expect. The greens are large but have alot of undulation, and there are many blind shots on the course.

I am a ranger and a starter at the course. The front nine is setup to play slower than the back nine. Front is rated for 2 hours and 15 minutes, and back is rated for 2:10. So that's 4 hours and 25 minutes on a normal day.

But weekends are not normal days. First off we are booked solid until around 2:30 on Saturdays and Sundays. As a difficult course packed full of people our main problem stems from people who's ability is just not capable of making it around the course in 4 hours and 25 minutes. So we've got 2 things going against us: Volume and lack of necessary skill to keep up. I'm not saying every golfer needs to shoot in the 80s, I'm simply saying bringing your buddy out who is new to golf isn't a good idea on the weekend.

When I am starter on the weekends I keep track of turn times. Anywhere from 2:15 to 2:25 I feel is acceptable for the course on a weekend. When it starts getting above that 2:25 mark thats when I notify the ranger that something needs to be done. If you play our course on a weekend in 4 hours and 35 minutes that is no reason to complain.


But please, as a ranger let me say this. If you see me zipping around out there please don't yell at me about how slow the group in front of you is and how there's "X" amount of open holes in front of them. I already know whats ahead of you, what's behind you, and how your location on the course matches with where you should be. I will do everything in my power to fix the problem, but nothing makes me more angry then being told of a problem I already know about and am working on to better your experience.

[larrybud]

BS66, on Oct 22 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

What's an acceptable pace of play on a nice/challenging course on a booked Saturday?

At what point do you just say screw it and walk off? I have a buddy that will literally have a hissy fit and walk off if the front nine takes too long. I'm more of the ilk that playing golf is better than anything else I could be doing so if it takes a little extra time, then so be it.

For a foursome with players stacked in front of you? 4:45 is getting lengthy, but it all depends on the course.

[buggyman]

the pace of play is killing golf. A local course here I just played was 4 1/2 hours. I have gone there and walked off after 9 holes at 3 hours. The course packs them in every 5 minutes, does not hold to tee times (if group gets there early they can go). I like the course but don't play there hardly ever because of the pace. The course is only 6200 yards also from the tips. SO most play it at 5600 riding and still barely make it under 5 hours. It all about the money. And I know this because I used to be the Assistant there years ago and was told to never tell players to speed up, don't want to offend them.

[Bomb and Gouge]

A lot of the courses around here pack so many people onto the courses by sending people off every seven minutes.

At those increments, it's basically impossible for foursomes to play at a decent pace.

[jjj912]

My experience is that anything under 4 and half hours is acceptable with 4 hours and fifteen minutes or less being preferred. Four hours and forty minutes is near the upper limit and five hours or more means either you're doing something horribly wrong or the groups in front of you are. In any case, I have found that the pace of play you want to be most concerned with is that of the group in front of you. Stay on their tail and you are doing your part to keep the pace of play at a reasonable level.

[Bluefan75]

The courses that spread out tee times more than 7 minutes apart can still somtimes shoot themselves in the foot. One high end cours enear me actually has times every 10 minutes. Sounds great, doesn't it? Then the starter, seeing you are there at 12:16 for you for 12:20 time says "Those guys are past the bunkers, you guys go ahead." So even though their tee sheet is set up to keep you from getting on someones' tail right from the start, it goes to pot real quickly.

[BS66]

Bluefan75, on Oct 23 2008, 09:55 AM, said:

The courses that spread out tee times more than 7 minutes apart can still somtimes shoot themselves in the foot. One high end cours enear me actually has times every 10 minutes. Sounds great, doesn't it? Then the starter, seeing you are there at 12:16 for you for 12:20 time says "Those guys are past the bunkers, you guys go ahead." So even though their tee sheet is set up to keep you from getting on someones' tail right from the start, it goes to pot real quickly.

Yes, but I would prefer that to the 7 minute gap courses. Anything less than 8 minutes is not feasible.

The bigger problem nowadays is players not allowing a faster group behind them to pass. The game is so much about the masses now and a good number of them don't take the time to do two very important things. 1. Learn the rules of golf. 2. Know proper golf etiquette. Most golfers are more concerned about themselves and their mechanics and the rules of golf are completely being overlooked on a large scale.

Something as simple as allowing faster players through or waiving up on a par 3 are always overlooked, but both of those things determine pace of play on any given course on any given day.

[Bluefan75]

BS66, on Oct 23 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

Bluefan75, on Oct 23 2008, 09:55 AM, said:

The courses that spread out tee times more than 7 minutes apart can still somtimes shoot themselves in the foot. One high end cours enear me actually has times every 10 minutes. Sounds great, doesn't it? Then the starter, seeing you are there at 12:16 for you for 12:20 time says "Those guys are past the bunkers, you guys go ahead." So even though their tee sheet is set up to keep you from getting on someones' tail right from the start, it goes to pot real quickly.

Yes, but I would prefer that to the 7 minute gap courses. Anything less than 8 minutes is not feasible.

The bigger problem nowadays is players not allowing a faster group behind them to pass. The game is so much about the masses now and a good number of them don't take the time to do two very important things. 1. Learn the rules of golf. 2. Know proper golf etiquette. Most golfers are more concerned about themselves and their mechanics and the rules of golf are completely being overlooked on a large scale.

Something as simple as allowing faster players through or waiving up on a par 3 are always overlooked, but both of those things determine pace of play on any given course on any given day.

Yes, it is still better than 7 minute tee times, no question. I was just pointing out that even the courses who try to do it right need to be vigilant about sticking to the tee times.

You make some real good points. Especially about the game being so much abotu the masses. It seems someone somewhere decided that "the masses playing golf"=standards going away was a good equation. I suppose one could say that is happening in society in general, but still. No courses are willing to tell people how to behave, and any individuals who do so get called haters and curmudgeons. "Why can't we do what we want?" By this point most are ready to just gut out the round, and ensure to never play with this person again. The RoG are considered "too complicated" and "too mundane" and whatever other excuse you want to toss out that people use to jusitify not bothering to learn them.

While I fully support growth, growth at all costs has serious consequences, and we are beginning to see them in golf.

[BS66]

Bluefan75, on Oct 23 2008, 12:37 PM, said:

BS66, on Oct 23 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

Bluefan75, on Oct 23 2008, 09:55 AM, said:

The courses that spread out tee times more than 7 minutes apart can still somtimes shoot themselves in the foot. One high end cours enear me actually has times every 10 minutes. Sounds great, doesn't it? Then the starter, seeing you are there at 12:16 for you for 12:20 time says "Those guys are past the bunkers, you guys go ahead." So even though their tee sheet is set up to keep you from getting on someones' tail right from the start, it goes to pot real quickly.

Yes, but I would prefer that to the 7 minute gap courses. Anything less than 8 minutes is not feasible.

The bigger problem nowadays is players not allowing a faster group behind them to pass. The game is so much about the masses now and a good number of them don't take the time to do two very important things. 1. Learn the rules of golf. 2. Know proper golf etiquette. Most golfers are more concerned about themselves and their mechanics and the rules of golf are completely being overlooked on a large scale.

Something as simple as allowing faster players through or waiving up on a par 3 are always overlooked, but both of those things determine pace of play on any given course on any given day.

Yes, it is still better than 7 minute tee times, no question. I was just pointing out that even the courses who try to do it right need to be vigilant about sticking to the tee times.

You make some real good points. Especially about the game being so much abotu the masses. It seems someone somewhere decided that "the masses playing golf"=standards going away was a good equation. I suppose one could say that is happening in society in general, but still. No courses are willing to tell people how to behave, and any individuals who do so get called haters and curmudgeons. "Why can't we do what we want?" By this point most are ready to just gut out the round, and ensure to never play with this person again. The RoG are considered "too complicated" and "too mundane" and whatever other excuse you want to toss out that people use to jusitify not bothering to learn them.

While I fully support growth, growth at all costs has serious consequences, and we are beginning to see them in golf.

Your last point is dead on and was the gist of my argument. The most serious consequence of this growth in my opinion is the lack of education. It seems that only a small portion of the golfing population know virtually anything about the rules anymore and how they are in place to help, not hinder your game (among many things...pace of play).

I don't know how many golfers I've played with that were good players and had some skill, but knew nothing about the rules...simple stuff like what to do in different marked hazards. You should have to take a basic rules quiz before they allow you onto the course.

Regarding the tee-time gaps...most courses will always push for groups to get off the tee early because that allows them to get more bodies through the door which increases revenue. Courses biggest issues is when they get behind schedule on tee-times...that is when they loose revenue by having people leave.

[xan_user]

Any course that sends out groups less than 8 min apart should loose their USGA rating.

[tburchell]

I have paid for the round, sure as hell I'm finishing it. In SoCal here, 5+ hour rounds are more than possible. In my experience though morning tee times avoid tournaments, and therefore, maintain a better pace.

[Pinehurst1999]

Ready-golf is the the biggest LOST ART of the amateur. I understand that you want to enjoyu your round...but what is wrong with preparing to hit while someone else is hitting?

[BS66]

NCNickentGuy , on Oct 23 2008, 10:00 PM, said:

Ready-golf is the the biggest LOST ART of the amateur. I understand that you want to enjoyu your round...but what is wrong with preparing to hit while someone else is hitting?

No truer words can be said. How hard is it not to be at your ball ready to hit when it's your turn. I hate guys that want to be chauffeured all over the course. If it's that important to you just take the cart over to your ball when I pick my club out of the bag to go hit. Also is it necessary for all these high handicappers to look at their putt from all angles when it's their turn to go? I can understand getting both sides of the ball, but at least try and do that when others are taking their turn.

I play with this one guy occasionally that will look at the putt from both sides, then line up his putt...step back and then plumb bob to get a final line...then step up and take a few practice strokes, then putt the ball. Unfortunately most of that is being done when it's his turn...not while others are putting. His routine can last anywhere form 20 seconds to at least a minute and a half. That's almost 20 minutes of pre-shot routine before he even makes a stroke. Just unreal.

[Bomb and Gouge]

BS66, on Oct 24 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

I play with this one guy occasionally that will look at the putt from both sides, then line up his putt...step back and then plumb bob to get a final line...then step up and take a few practice strokes, then putt the ball. Unfortunately most of that is being done when it's his turn...not while others are putting. His routine can last anywhere form 20 seconds to at least a minute and a half. That's almost 20 minutes of pre-shot routine before he even makes a stroke. Just unreal.

I would definitely say something to him.

Maybe he just doesn't realize what he's doing.

When I'm playing with people I don't know, on the 2nd tee I usually say, "We'll just play ready golf, ok? Who ever gets his tee in the ground first has honors"

And 9/10 I take honors just to keep the pace going.

[BS66]

Bomb and Gouge, on Oct 24 2008, 03:02 PM, said:

BS66, on Oct 24 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

I play with this one guy occasionally that will look at the putt from both sides, then line up his putt...step back and then plumb bob to get a final line...then step up and take a few practice strokes, then putt the ball. Unfortunately most of that is being done when it's his turn...not while others are putting. His routine can last anywhere form 20 seconds to at least a minute and a half. That's almost 20 minutes of pre-shot routine before he even makes a stroke. Just unreal.

I would definitely say something to him.

Maybe he just doesn't realize what he's doing.

When I'm playing with people I don't know, on the 2nd tee I usually say, "We'll just play ready golf, ok? Who ever gets his tee in the ground first has honors"

And 9/10 I take honors just to keep the pace going.

Oh...he knows. His current routine is a big improvement over what he used to do. Normally we just start our own routines while he's doing his thing and we can usually off set his slowness. Fortunately I don't play very often with him. The nicest guy you'll ever meet and a really good golfer...he's just methodical.

[proknows]

I have been a golf professional for over twenty years and have found a steady decline in decorum. When I arrived at my present facility three years ago, all of the complaints were in regards to slow play and the five hour round. Now after initiating a much more aggressive albeit friendly marshaling program, I am now frequently yelled at by players we speak to about their pace. However, I would rather lose a customer that is angry we are pro-active than ones who feel we are doing nothing for them. For any of those who are offended when we speak to you, believe me when I say I would rather you helped us out and I could just thank you for coming to our facility. Most of the time the problem stems from people playing tee's that are more difficult than they should be playing. Even with complaints coming from both directions, there is nothing I would rather do for a career.

[BS66]

proknows, on Oct 25 2008, 02:42 PM, said:

I have been a golf professional for over twenty years and have found a steady decline in decorum. When I arrived at my present facility three years ago, all of the complaints were in regards to slow play and the five hour round. Now after initiating a much more aggressive albeit friendly marshaling program, I am now frequently yelled at by players we speak to about their pace. However, I would rather lose a customer that is angry we are pro-active than ones who feel we are doing nothing for them. For any of those who are offended when we speak to you, believe me when I say I would rather you helped us out and I could just thank you for coming to our facility. Most of the time the problem stems from people playing tee's that are more difficult than they should be playing. Even with complaints coming from both directions, there is nothing I would rather do for a career.

No doubt...I'd rather have a pro-active ranger than one that just drives by. The one issue I have with rangers however is that they normally don't do enough to get the slow groups moving. I thought all courses have the right to pull you off a course or at least make you move up a couple holes to catch up. I rarely see that happening anymore. Some courses do, but they are in the minority.

[Blues Golfer]

Awhile back in another thread, someone suggested that courses simply give you 4.5 hours to finish. At 4.5 hours, you are done, no matter what hole you are on.

While this sounds drastic, it's actually the only way to save public golf. Courses that enforce it will have a temporary drop in traffic from people that don't want to play that way...until golfers that can finish in that time learn to go there. When word gets out, they will be full again.

Slow play has driven a lot of people out of the game, perhaps more than the number that have quit because of the cost. I quit for awhile for exactly that reason.

I would love to see a golf course experiment for just one weekend with "4.5 and gone" and see how it changed for a day, or a whole weekend. What if it actually worked?

[highergr0und]

I think we're delusional to think that if we enforce speedy play all these low handicap folks with a great respect for all the rules will suddenly reappear. I think the weekend hackers far outnumber these guys. If you love the game, you're not gonna quit. You'll figure out the best times to play. Like one guy said, the rangers often don't have the power to penalize people any more. I've learned the times to tee off when I have the best shot at a quicker round, but I always prepare myself for a long one. I do what I can to speed stuff up, like teeing off from the shortest to longest hitter rather than by honor and playing ready golf. I will ask to play through if there's a hole open in front of the group ahead of me and I catch them. They usually don't care. I've given up for the most part on waving people up on par 3s. Most people don't understand what's goin on.

My tips for making a long round fun...
After finding your ball and deciding on a shot, don't even think about it again till it's almost time to hit. I always used to over analyze and that just lead to trouble which lead to me blaming the slow group ahead for the bad shot. I don't even pull a club until the group is about to clear.
Bet on the group in front of you. Nickels, dimes, whatever. Who will shank it? Who will take a second shot at it? Who will get it closest?
On par 5s, who will be the guy who waits for a green to clear with 3 wood from 280 when their drive only went 220? It turns the frustration into a good laugh.

I guess I just don't get that serious. I used to get all stressed on the course, but that just wasn't any fun. Took a short break and came back with a positive attitude that I just refuse to lose. I play better golf too.

[DanZ]

tburchell, on Oct 23 2008, 06:48 PM, said:

I have paid for the round, sure as hell I'm finishing it. In SoCal here, 5+ hour rounds are more than possible. In my experience though morning tee times avoid tournaments, and therefore, maintain a better pace.

I'm also in SoCal and I can barely believe some of the people in here. At most public courses around here on weekends I'm pleasantly surprised if I finish a round in less than 5 hours. That's with playing later in the day tee times (11:00am or later). If you get out earlier you can probably keep it closer to 4:30 or maybe even 4:00 if you get out early enough or a lucky day.

On a weekday at a course where we rarely saw and almost never waited for the group in front of us we finished in 3:45 as a threesome. We had a single catch up and join us for the last 4 holes. This was probably the fastest 18 I've ever played.

[proknows]

I could not imagine the number of complaints I would get if our pace of play ever approached five hours, but am sure I would not be here as the Head Golf Professional if that were to happen. Our marshals speak to groups that are not keeping up with the group in front of them, and then the second time they are given two holes to close the gap and told if they fail to catch up that they will have to pick up and move forward into position. When this does occur, it is always a professional that goes out and has the group move into position. This policy usually results in one group coming in each month to tell me how horrible it was that they had to skip holes, but it is a huge decrease in the number of complaints I used to get about slow play. Now instead of people thinking my staff is there to harass them, they are starting to understand we are doing it to make the experience better for the majority of our customers and seem to appreciate the effort.

[bigred90gt]

That's the one thing I miss about the country club I used to be a member at. I could go out at any given time on any given day, and play a 2 hour round of golf. I think the longest I ever played, with a 4some, was 3.5 hours. It was $100 per month, and all the golf you could play if you were walking, or $19 for 18 hole cart, and $14 for 9 hole cart (a bit expensive, which is why I walked). If it werent for the fact that there is no such thing as a good lie on this course due to the moguls, and if it rains, it is a mud pit for a week, I'd get another membership there.

[Ronzo]

proknows, on Nov 2 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

I could not imagine the number of complaints I would get if our pace of play ever approached five hours, but am sure I would not be here as the Head Golf Professional if that were to happen. Our marshals speak to groups that are not keeping up with the group in front of them, and then the second time they are given two holes to close the gap and told if they fail to catch up that they will have to pick up and move forward into position. When this does occur, it is always a professional that goes out and has the group move into position. This policy usually results in one group coming in each month to tell me how horrible it was that they had to skip holes, but it is a huge decrease in the number of complaints I used to get about slow play. Now instead of people thinking my staff is there to harass them, they are starting to understand we are doing it to make the experience better for the majority of our customers and seem to appreciate the effort.

At what length do you maintain the rough at your course?

[atlanta golfer]

In most cases of slow play - I blame the pro shop, starter, super., and marshalls, I really do. Here are the things I see..........

Courses allowing late arrivals to tee off anyway. (I say if they miss the tee time, sorry, see you next time).

Semi-private courses allowing members to bully their way on the course even without a reserved tee time.

Marshalls no where in sight after the first one or two holes.

Courses in resort areas and where there are a lot of ocassional golfers, not doing a good job of clearly marking hazards and OB. Simple things like drop areas on par 3's, good signage at the tee on location of hidden water, and even hazard markers along heavily wooded and low lying boundaries, will do wonders to speed up play.

Golfers are people and some of them will be subject to poor play, bad habits, etc. It is up to good course management to keep things moving, in a polite, respectful, but firm manner.

[fore_left]

I'm really lucky that I play most of my golf on the weekdays. A typical round takes 2 to 3 hours. If I go back to the same course on the weekend it's between 4 1/2 and 5 hours. I will not blame the rangers at my course. The blame rests squarely on the Head Professional. He's afraid to offend anyone. Somehow he misses the fact that 75% of the players are offended by the slow play. I've seen him give rain checks to players that the ranger had to move into position. They missed 1 or 2 holes, and recieve a 18 hole rain check because they were too slow? I still can't make any sense of it. The rangers are all golfers and know exactly what they are doing, but without any follow through from their boss, all their work goes down the tubes.

I'm more than happy to miss a Saturday or Sunday tee-time with my regular group.

[mark m]

A reasonable pace is 3:30 - 4:30 hrs. Depending on course lay-out, distance, etc. I prefer to play fast myself but you have to be realistic. I also agree that most courses don't want to offend anyone - so they don't enforce a good pace - but that can work against them in the long run if typical rounds are averaging 5:00 hrs or more. One bad experience is a killer in any business. Often you won't get a second chance.

Nightmare senario: Playing behind a foursome of non-patrons with old-school pulls carts who can't hit it 200 yds but insist on playing the tips. How come they always proceed in a group, in order, to each players ball and then watch and comment about his shot? (Can't stand that - play ready golf!)

Quick Funny Story:

Background: I play with a group of about 20 good players on Saturdays and Sundays...we often had "sessions" in the bar after play and sometimes go back out and scramble or whatever...bottom line we were often out at the course for a long time....from around 7:00am to whenever...

So some of us were over at a guys home for a little party and we were arguing about how long a round should take...(just like on this forum)...some said 3:30, others someting else...
The host's wife was in the kitchen listening to this and pokes her head around the corner and says, "I thought every round took at least 12 hours?!"

She nailed us good and it was funny.