[xan_user]

Don't beat around the bush, help your buddy out and tell him he's being a horses pattooty.

People that let cheaters bug them but don't communicate that to the actual cheater, are only cheating themselves.

[jjj912]

Sometimes between two holes I'll talk to someone about a rules breach. I'll say something like: "Remember that bunker shot on the last hole? Great shot, by the way. Well, technically speaking, doing X was against the rules. The proper procedure is Y and the penalty is Z." The phrase "Technically speaking" or something similar seems to help make the person feel like a victim of the rules instead of a violator of the rules and it makes them more receptive to learning the rules. If I know the person fairly well, I'll ask them what their score was. Then, after they tell me, I'll say that I thought it was some other higher number and I'll walk through the scoring with them and point out the the penalty. I only do this on rare occasions, though. If you do it too much and you go from being a teacher to a rule-monger, or worse.

[PurePursuit]

I had to stop playing with two guys because of this. JJJ912 I have tried this, sometimes they are receptive but often times they get angry as all hell and hold a resentment towards you for the rest of the round. Sorry but I don't want to hear about someones new personal best when every time I've played with them I have seen them cheat.

[Josh The Nosh]

ok heres one, today i was playing a pitch shot from the rough to the green about 50 yards. when i walked up to the ball it was just off the cart path and had lots of loose stones around it so i moved it a few feet. and continued playing.

now im not too savvy with all the rules of golf, and contiuned playing thining nothing of it. later after the round i saw some members i play with finising on the 9th asked if i wanted to play a few holes with them i said sure.

After we teed off one of the guys said i saw you cheat earlier you moved your ball, i was like i dont think i did, and he said yeah when u was on the 11th, i was like oh yeh it had loads of stones around it and i didnt want to damage my clubs. he said you must play it as it lies.

I was only playing by myself not comp or for handicap or anything did i do wrong? there was too many stones to move, should i risk damage to a club, instead of just moveing the ball a few feet?

I thought he was out of order myself, but not sure who was wrong

[CarloGolfer]

Josh The Nosh, on Oct 13 2008, 04:38 PM, said:

ok heres one, today i was playing a pitch shot from the rough to the green about 50 yards. when i walked up to the ball it was just off the cart path and had lots of loose stones around it so i moved it a few feet. and continued playing.

now im not too savvy with all the rules of golf, and contiuned playing thining nothing of it. later after the round i saw some members i play with finising on the 9th asked if i wanted to play a few holes with them i said sure.

After we teed off one of the guys said i saw you cheat earlier you moved your ball, i was like i dont think i did, and he said yeah when u was on the 11th, i was like oh yeh it had loads of stones around it and i didnt want to damage my clubs. he said you must play it as it lies.

I was only playing by myself not comp or for handicap or anything did i do wrong? there was too many stones to move, should i risk damage to a club, instead of just moveing the ball a few feet?

I thought he was out of order myself, but not sure who was wrong

So long as the stones were "loose impediments" you could move them and not break any rules. Remember when Tiger had the gallery move his "loose impediment" boulder? If your stance or your lie was impeded by the path, you could move the ball. If you're playing a friendly round on a course in such poor shape that there are stones right off the fairway... go ahead and move it (you have my blessing).

This guy you describe reminds me of the flip-side of cheaters, the enforcers. Guys who insist on playing every shot like they're in a tournament, meanwhile they can't break 90... ever. Golf is about having fun, not about playing by the rules as if you need to prove something about yourself.

[Josh The Nosh]

thanks carlos makes me feel alot better. yes the course cart paths are a disgrace

[Ronzo]

This may have been a situation where being familiar with the Rules of Golf may have helped you. You may not have had to put yourself in as tough a spot if you had been interfered with by the cartpath.

That said, if the ball was near the cartpath but the cartpath didn't interfere with your stance or swingpath on the line of play you planned to take, you would have been better off moving the stones rather than your ball. Just my $0.02.

[Josh The Nosh]

if i did that ronzo id still be there i dont mean a few stones imagine your ball being in a fish tank you just put gravel in

[Hux]

Josh

I'd say you erstwhile playing partner was a tool - more than likely trying to rattle you. Why else would he say something as inflammatory as calling you a cheat when you were obviously playing by yourself in a non competitive round.
Heck why damage your clubs by hitting around rocks - makes perfect sense to me.

[sermolupi]

I agree entirely; it's exactly what I'd have done. Moreover, I'd have given the 'enforcer' pretty short shrift as well. When you're having a casual knock on your own or with friends, the rules you play by are up to you. If that means mulligans, drops from OB etc, then fine: just as long as you're all happy with this. There's nothing more annoying than being held up by a group obviously playing a social round because guys insist on walking back to the tee, measuring out drops religiously, getting out rule books etc.

In a competition, or money match, things are entirely different.

Having said all this, I am now a pariah at my club because I called a penalty on a guy on our committee(in a medal round) for grounding his club playing from a stream bank but inside the stake/hazard lines. He did it, then looked up to see if anyone had seen, saw I had, and clearly wasn't going to say anything, so I did.

[CarloGolfer]

Hux, on Oct 13 2008, 06:39 PM, said:

Heck why damage your clubs by hitting around rocks - makes perfect sense to me.

Hux,

Disregarding the discussion, I have a question about your clubs. I read your sig and we're playing a similar set-up. How do you like those Cobra Hybrids? I've been on the fence with mi Miz Fli Hi Clk and I'm thinking about a switch.

Your thoughts?

[larrybud]

Josh The Nosh, on Oct 13 2008, 04:38 PM, said:

now im not too savvy with all the rules of golf, and contiuned playing thining nothing of it. later after the round i saw some members i play with finising on the 9th asked if i wanted to play a few holes with them i said sure.

After we teed off one of the guys said i saw you cheat earlier you moved your ball, i was like i dont think i did, and he said yeah when u was on the 11th, i was like oh yeh it had loads of stones around it and i didnt want to damage my clubs. he said you must play it as it lies.

He actually said "I saw you cheat"??

[Ronzo]

larrybud, on Oct 13 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

Josh The Nosh, on Oct 13 2008, 04:38 PM, said:

now im not too savvy with all the rules of golf, and contiuned playing thining nothing of it. later after the round i saw some members i play with finising on the 9th asked if i wanted to play a few holes with them i said sure.

After we teed off one of the guys said i saw you cheat earlier you moved your ball, i was like i dont think i did, and he said yeah when u was on the 11th, i was like oh yeh it had loads of stones around it and i didnt want to damage my clubs. he said you must play it as it lies.

He actually said "I saw you cheat"??

In a similar circumstance, a former co-worker accused me of miscounting strokes when we were both playing with the CEO of my firm. I recounted my strokes for all, showed him he was incorrect, and he said, "OK, put yourself down for whatever you want, then." I turned to the CEO and said, "No disrespect to you, but please don't ever ask me to play golf when this man is in the group, ever again." I finished the round. The CEO has played with me a few times since then, but not with the other man. The other man is now with another firm.

[Ronzo]

Josh The Nosh, on Oct 13 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

if i did that ronzo id still be there i dont mean a few stones imagine your ball being in a fish tank you just put gravel in

Was this a waste area, was it part of the cartpath, or just a pile of stones near the cartpath?

You had an unplayable lie option under the rules if there was no legal relief, but in a casual round, I wouldn't have taken you to task. In a tournament, it would be different, but you know that and you would have asked for a ruling, anyway.

[Josh The Nosh]

it was just off the cart path which is really just lots of gravel, they cant afford to tarmac them. im glad i asked about this, cause now i know the ruling. as having stones near your ball near a path happens most rounds there.

[dlygrisse]

Golf mirrors life, if the person cheats on the course he cheats in life as well, I can almost assure you 100%. I would distance myself from him, not loan him money, and not trust him in business situations. Cheating on the course says a lot about this persons character, personally I have no problem calling people out for cheating, but then I have no problem being confrontaitonal when it comes to ethics of this nature. You dont have to start a fight but maybe the guy will learn a lesson if you say somehting, but probably not.......

[faith+1]

You definitely should have called him out on it. But that doesn't mean you have to overbearing about it.

I call out my friends for cheating all the time, saying that "I'm bout to throw the book at you."

Make it seem like you're more humored by his cheating than offended, but also make it clear that you won't be paying him if he cheats. If you're worried about preserving the relationship, make sure this is done in private.

[Ronzo]

According to Ian Fleming (speaking through James Bond in Goldfinger), "The only remedy against a cheat at golf is not to play with him again."

[Richie3Jack]

I went to junior college for a year before transferring to a 4 year school. In my year at junior college I won 6 tournaments...but in a strange fashion. In fact, I didn't know I won those 6 tournaments until after the season was over.

I was the #1 man on our team and finished 2nd in six different tournaments. For some reason I kept on losing to a guy who usually played #4 or #5 from another team. This team was also the best team in our conference.

I asked why this guy couldn't get no higher than #4 on their team and their coach explained that he was awful in practice and they tried to play him at #1 once for a tournament, but he played horrible there as well. The coach figured that he must just feel real comfortable playing #4 or #5 on their team.

In our conference championship we found what was up. He was blatantly cheating. He was paired up with the #5 guy on our team and on the third hole where there was O.B. right, he hit one almost dead right. Our #5 man says he should hit another ball and the guy tells him that his shot is in bounds. Then our #5 man asks if he's going to hit a provisional and the guy doesn't say a word, but then starts walking down the fairway really fast. From there, our #5 guy, who also played on the soccer team and was in great shape, starts walking fast too and then the guy starts taking off sprinting and tries to get over a hill and chucks another ball down the middle of the fairway. Our #5 guy saw this, but needed a bit more proof...so he goes into the O.B. area and finds that guy's ball that he hit O.B.

Later on we found out that basically this guy would always try and cheat and get away with it. But if somebody called him on it, he would stop for the day. The problem was in the six tournaments that he "won", he played with a kid that basically said he knew he was cheating, but really didn't care.

I didn't find out that I was awarded the winner of those tournaments until the summer time when I crossed paths with my old coach at a restaurant.

That's the most extreme case of cheating I've ever seen.






YAKUZA

[tmfan54]

devlbasher, on Sep 22 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

Skaffa77, on Sep 22 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

devlbasher, on Sep 22 2008, 04:26 PM, said:

Bluefan75, on Sep 22 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

Skaffa77, on Sep 22 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

Sorry dude...I don't think I could have just held my breathe when there was something on the line. I would have called him out on it especially if you found his ball. Easily would have push him on it and then brought up the fact that money was on the line and that requires fair play. If it's a casual weekend round...fine...you worry about your own score...I don't care if you think you shot better than you really did.

I play with a lot of folks who don't "play by the rules"...most of it is innocent (ignorant of the rules) and some of it is intentional (they want to just "play for fun"). The biggest infractions I see (again mostly innocent and I'd don't say much):

• Winter rules (improving lie)
  
• Improving position (moving it from behind a tree or other obstacle)
  
• OB or Lost Ball - dropping ball where ball went OB
  
• improper procedure when moving your marker on the green - TOO many people neglect to mark the ball first and then move the marker
  
• Mulligans or freebies on the first tee
  
• Practice strokes in a sand trap
  
• Grounding the club in a hazard
  
• Using "Line of Flight into a Hazard" mentality for a drop...

Do you mean they are taking sand with their practice stroke? I take a couple practice swings in a bunker first, but never touch the sand.....

Yes, he means when you make contact with the sand. No penalty for taking a practice swing while not at address and without contacting sand. The bunker is a hazard. You can't touch the ground with the club in the bunker, just like you can't inside the line on a water hazard...but your practice swings without touching the sand are legal.

Correct. If you watch most pros, they will actually take practice strokes outside of the bunker to avoid the risk (at least when I watch tournaments). I believe even dropping your club in the hazard (sand trap) prior to taking your actual shot is considered a penalty.

If you noticed, I made a distinction between practice shots (contacting the ground) and grounding the club in the bunker. There are folks who are completely ignorant on the rule that they will actually take practice shots. Others know not to take practice shots, but yet they lay their club in the sand behind the ball prior to making their swing. Both are penalties.

Yep...another thing that I think some people don't know is that you cannot GROUND a club in a hazard, but if you are in a hazard that has tall grass or weeds, etc, that grass does not count as ground. So if you're walking through there looking for a ball, your club need not avoid the tall grass. You are just not allowed to actually ground the club.

also many people dont realize the other penalties that can occur in bunkers. in a tournament a few months there was a short par 4. i drove it in the green side bunker and my playing partner put it just short of the bunker. when he hit his pitch the divot went right next to my ball. he asked me to toss it to him. not thinking i did. immediately he said, "thats a penalty". unfortunately it was. it is hard to grab something from the sand without touching the sand and so i most likely grazed the sand with my finger while grabbing HIS divot. this was a legitamite rule and i should have made him get his own divot or wait til i hit. but the thing that bothered me was he did it on purpose to get me a stroke, why? i dont know. i shot 1 under he shot 96. that stroke didnt do anything for him.

[kevcarter]

scazz54, on Oct 25 2008, 11:04 PM, said:

also many people dont realize the other penalties that can occur in bunkers. in a tournament a few months there was a short par 4. i drove it in the green side bunker and my playing partner put it just short of the bunker. when he hit his pitch the divot went right next to my ball. he asked me to toss it to him. not thinking i did. immediately he said, "thats a penalty". unfortunately it was. it is hard to grab something from the sand without touching the sand and so i most likely grazed the sand with my finger while grabbing HIS divot. this was a legitamite rule and i should have made him get his own divot or wait til i hit. but the thing that bothered me was he did it on purpose to get me a stroke, why? i dont know. i shot 1 under he shot 96. that stroke didnt do anything for him.

Scazz,

This ruling was wrong on a couple of points, besides the fact the fellow competitor was a complete a$$!

You were not penalized for touching the sand, you were penalized for removing a loose impediment while your ball lie in a bunker.

Rule 23. Loose Impediments

23-1. Relief

Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.


The penalty applied was incorrect! Your fellow competitor hit the divot next to your ball while your ball was in the bunker. You are allowed to remove the divot and restore the original lie:

13-4/18 Partner’s, Opponent’s or Fellow-Competitor’s Divot Comes to Rest Near Player’s Ball in Bunker
Q. A player’s partner, opponent or fellow-competitor plays a stroke from near a bunker and the divot comes to rest near the player’s ball lying in the bunker. May the divot be removed?

A. A player is entitled to the lie which his stroke gave him. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4), the divot may be removed without penalty.

The same would apply if the player’s ball was lying in a water hazard.

Kevin

[tmfan54]

you sure? the divot did not affect my lie. he asked me to pick it up, so i tossed it to him and becaue i must have touched the sand i figured it was a legit ruling if we were going to be technical. after the round i asked my boss, a pga instructor, and he said it was a legit penalty and actually told me another rule that was odd. not sure i remember exactly, but it went something like this: lets say you are just to the side of a fairway bunker. if your ball is just outside the bunker and you take our stance in the bunker, hit your shot and it greensdie bunker and you raked the spot where you stood in the bunker., yuo canbe assessed a penalty for testing the hazard. similar stupied rule but probably would never be called unless you get a guy like i played with. oh and that rule at first, but realized it was not worth my time. lol

[kevcarter]

scazz54, on Oct 26 2008, 08:32 PM, said:

you sure? the divot did not affect my lie. he asked me to pick it up, so i tossed it to him and becaue i must have touched the sand i figured it was a legit ruling if we were going to be technical. after the round i asked my boss, a pga instructor, and he said it was a legit penalty and actually told me another rule that was odd. not sure i remember exactly, but it went something like this: lets say you are just to the side of a fairway bunker. if your ball is just outside the bunker and you take our stance in the bunker, hit your shot and it greensdie bunker and you raked the spot where you stood in the bunker., yuo canbe assessed a penalty for testing the hazard. similar stupied rule but probably would never be called unless you get a guy like i played with. oh and that rule at first, but realized it was not worth my time. lol

The decision I posted earlier answers the first question.

The second question was changed by the USGA early this past summer. No penalty.

Kevin

[tmfan54]

yeah i see. thanks for the info.

[ezra76]

I play with my buddy, not for money, just for pride. I'd seen him roll the ball a bit a few times. I finally let him know about it on a hole where he rolled it in the rough and made a birdie, I hit my shot from the fairway out of a massive toe deep divot and made bogey.

[GatorBait]

The best cure for a cheater is a loud, persistent mouth. Make them feel like an even bigger cheater than they're actually being.

[defsoad]

KevCarter, on Oct 26 2008, 09:40 PM, said:

scazz54, on Oct 26 2008, 08:32 PM, said:

you sure? the divot did not affect my lie. he asked me to pick it up, so i tossed it to him and becaue i must have touched the sand i figured it was a legit ruling if we were going to be technical. after the round i asked my boss, a pga instructor, and he said it was a legit penalty and actually told me another rule that was odd. not sure i remember exactly, but it went something like this: lets say you are just to the side of a fairway bunker. if your ball is just outside the bunker and you take our stance in the bunker, hit your shot and it greensdie bunker and you raked the spot where you stood in the bunker., yuo canbe assessed a penalty for testing the hazard. similar stupied rule but probably would never be called unless you get a guy like i played with. oh and that rule at first, but realized it was not worth my time. lol

The decision I posted earlier answers the first question.

The second question was changed by the USGA early this past summer. No penalty.

Kevin

Isn't that second scenario exactly what got Stewart Cink DQ'ed earlier this year? Did they change it because of that? It's good they changed it, though...it's pretty silly to penalize someone for using proper etiquette.

[kevcarter]

defsoad, on Oct 29 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

KevCarter, on Oct 26 2008, 09:40 PM, said:

scazz54, on Oct 26 2008, 08:32 PM, said:

you sure? the divot did not affect my lie. he asked me to pick it up, so i tossed it to him and becaue i must have touched the sand i figured it was a legit ruling if we were going to be technical. after the round i asked my boss, a pga instructor, and he said it was a legit penalty and actually told me another rule that was odd. not sure i remember exactly, but it went something like this: lets say you are just to the side of a fairway bunker. if your ball is just outside the bunker and you take our stance in the bunker, hit your shot and it greensdie bunker and you raked the spot where you stood in the bunker., yuo canbe assessed a penalty for testing the hazard. similar stupied rule but probably would never be called unless you get a guy like i played with. oh and that rule at first, but realized it was not worth my time. lol

The decision I posted earlier answers the first question.

The second question was changed by the USGA early this past summer. No penalty.

Kevin

Isn't that second scenario exactly what got Stewart Cink DQ'ed earlier this year? Did they change it because of that? It's good they changed it, though...it's pretty silly to penalize someone for using proper etiquette.

Correct. It was changed about 2 weeks after that incident.

http://www.usga.org/...nouncement.html

Kevin

[Freak2]

onehitah, on Sep 19 2008, 03:56 PM, said:

Ya agree with all here. I can understand the guy shooting 140 and trying to fluff his score a little....he's just trying to fit in. No real threat from him. He'll generally start shaping up once he gets better. He'll learn, hopefully.

/slowly raises hand, thas me. I do change the lie, my 5-6 times per 18 holes. Never kick the ball tho, and only one off the tee, no matter how bad it is.

[cardia10]

Quote

it was just off the cart path which is really just lots of gravel, they cant afford to tarmac them. im glad i asked about this, cause now i know the ruling. as having stones near your ball near a path happens most rounds there.

Is this a situation where you can use the rules to your advantage? Like aiming nowhere toward the green so your stance is impeded by the cartpath, then taking a free drop no closer, then correctly aligning?

[ezra76]

I thought of this thread on Monday when I played. I played with 3 other guys older than me. One I know well, play with him all the time, another I'd played with once before and the last I'd met for the 1st. We played a friendly best ball match and I paired with the guy I'd played once with. We all started out walking. At the turn, my partner decided to get a cart. We were up 2 and had been up 3, comfortable lead.

On a par 5 we both hit our drives up the right side over bunker and hill. He rides ahead. My ball is sitting right next to the 200 marker in the fairway but I was really expecting it to be in the right rough. Then on a par 4, dogleg left, I tried my usual cut back off the dogeg. I cut it too much and it was pretty deep right. Again, he rides ahead and my ball is in a much better position than expected. I easily hit a PW to 3ft. from there.

After 18 my partner left and the 3 of us contiunued to play 7 more holes as the course was dead. They joked about him "magically finding his ball" on a par 5 where he hit it in the trees. I was like "really, he would do that" and they sort of laughed and rolled thier eyes. I really hope he didn't kick those tee shots into a better postition for me. It really never crossed my mind till the other 2 guys mentioned him finding his ball.