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The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion


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#1 Dariusz J.

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 04:10 PM

OK, first of all, I am sorry that it took me so long to proceed to start this thread. It has appeared that the biokinetic studies can be an endless trip where you can encounter things that make you step back and start again. I also would like to apologize in advance for using incorrect English (and be grateful for correcting me), although I tried to simplify the topic and the language as much as possible.

My theory is based on searching for the automatic golf swing motion in that all depends on a human body limitations rather than possibilities. Let me explain shortly why - in order to make a movement automatic there must not be any free capability left in a specific motion, otherwise timing issues come along. It also was not my ambition to write another "Yellow Book" because I am of the opinion that it is not necessary at all to move on such detailed levels of abstraction. Lastly, it was also not my ambition to try to find various secrets of the greatest golfers or to describe properly positions and imperatives since there are much better experts than myself that can do it much better.
However, I feel a tiny smell of pioneer job in my work since I am not aware of any specific book or publication that deals with The Big Picture of biokinetics and biomechanics. If I fail to do it correctly or flawlessly, what is very probable, I would not be disappointed since my work can be, at least, a starting point for future delelopment of the matter. I and only I am responsible for what is written here - I want to underline this strongly.

Since my time these days is limited and describing all important aspects of my theory is very time-consuming and difficult, I let myself to divide the thread into a few independent posts that will compose into the final shape of the whole publication. I won't forget, as promised, to write about common denominators of the greatest ballstrikers motins (incl. ben Hogan and Moe Norman, first of all) as well as differences between them from a biokinetical point of view.

The link to my site is: http://biokineticgol...ng.blogspot.com

Biokinetic Golf Swing Forum is here: http://www.biokineti...fswing.fora.pl/


1. General Remarks and Introduction


The role of biokinetics is crucial in any aspect of the movement while human body or its parts are involved. I do not want to go into such details as the work of nerves, muscles, ligaments or flexors mainly because my medical knowledge is not sufficient as well as I am of the opinion that it is really not necessary when one needs to see The Big Picture. In fact, it would darken the picture.
Nevertheless, this essay would be completely useless if there is no medical knowledge involved. Pure physics describes simple machines precisely well, however, a human body is an extremely complex "machine". That is why, I spent a lot of time studying such aspects of anatomy as e.g. kinesiology, arthrology, ophtalmology, orthopaedics, etc. and exchanging many thoughts with specialists. The language I use in the articles is a simple one so that the "big picture" is not unnecessarily darkened again.


First, we have to be aware what in our bodies is responsible for movements - there are three main parts of it:
- human skeleton (which is a passive base);
- ligaments (which are the links between the passive base and active elements);
- muscles (which are active motoric elements).
The above parts create a very complicated system based on levers thanks to that we, humans, are able to change the location of the whole body, change the location of various body parts in relation to others, maintain the stability and react with counterbalancing.


In short, our bodies are equipped with main body (thorax+abdomen) and distal parts of the body (neck+head, arms, legs). The fact that there are distal parts in our body is crucial for our movability, yet it brings timing issues into consideration. If, theoretically, human body consists of only main body, there would be no possibility of independent movements of any parts of the body - imagine e.g. a turning regular polyhedron.
However, when such a regular polyhedron is equipped with distal parts, the whole situation changes diametrally. Moreover, we are equipped with distal parts that, additionally, are equipped with joints (that enable considerably bigger variety of movement directions). More possible directions of movement mean more problems in coordination of the whole body movement, especailly taking into account that all distal parts tend to act independently (due to the specifics of the nervous system and our brain activity). We must not also forget that the role of two of the distal parts of our bodies, i.e. legs, is mainly to support our body and allowing to be in a vertical position.


Golf swing motion is an example of a relatively simple motion since the movements of all distal parts of our bodies can be subdued to the main body movement since the directional orientation of all the motions are practicaly the same. The only one big change of orientation may happen during transition when the upper body motion is different to the lower body one, however, let us not deal with it now. The whole trick is to subdue them in such a way that allows us to generate power to a satisfactory and necessary degree what is sort of a vicious circle as it appears.

In next subarticles of this article category, I will try to describe the biokinetic rules of all three distal sections of our bodies in a golf swing, mainly taking into account the minimalization of the timing issues that influences the coordination of the whole movement as well as describing alongsidely similarities and differences between model ballstrikers.

Less timing issues = less small thoughts and concepts = more coordinated motion = more repeatability and consistency - this is the motto of all the category of my articles belonging to this publication.



Any comments, questions and improvement trials are highly appreciated.


Cheers


P.S. I'll try my best to post the 2.nd "chapter" about the first human distal part of the body i.e. human head just after weekend.

Edited by Dariusz J., 16 April 2010 - 09:39 AM.


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#2 magnum184

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 04:19 PM

Looking forward to it, Dariusz.

Thanks for taking the time. Should be very enlightening.

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#3 kristan

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 11:01 PM

Can't wait for #2!!!  Thanks!

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#4 Jeff Evans

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 11:24 PM

Dariusz,

Sounds like we have some outstanding information to look forward to! If this turns out like I am thinking this may change the whole way the motion is thought of and I look forward to reading and studying all you have to offer up!

Cheers

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#5 eightiron

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 11:43 PM

JD is smarter than the average biscuit out there ( me included ) . Look forward to reading the biokinetics thread :clapping:


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#6 Dariusz J.

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 06:22 PM

OK,OK, thanks, Gents, but wait till the end with all the credits...:clapping:


2. The Head

The neck/head system and its impact on a motion is, IMHO, very underestimated and overlooked. First, two VERY IMPORTANT facts:

- the head is really heavy; the weight of it amounts to ca. 7.5 % of the whole human body weight; moreover, it is the most distant part from the human body CoG (which is in navel area - for an adult man; for an adult woman - a bit lower, BTW) that makes head's motion impact on ANY CoG shift even bigger;

- the spine "goes into the head" not centrally from a geometrical point of view, but from the back; this fact not only makes it impossible to turn the head more than the shoulder lie in both directions (although the head can move in all possible directions), but also implies how the head should be turned in order to be in synch with the turn of the spine - it reminds more of an eccentric wheel motion; if your shoulders turn back your head should also turn back while keeping the neck still.

Since the golf swing motion relies on turning of the whole upper body back and forth, the head should turn perpendicularily to the spine turn. However, there is no limitation in its independent movement, because, as I said before, the head can be turned more than it is needed in a golf swing; it does not - why ? If there is no limitations ? The answer is very simple - because its movement is dependent on a human's most important sense - the sight. We are constucted the way that our senses (through our brains) are the bosses. We cannot lose the golf ball out of our sight (unless someone is specially trained to do it or can play a "blind" golf). This is the most overlooked aspect of all aspects that concerns the golf swing motion...and I mean it.

Back to the topic - the limitation is then equal to the maximum turn we can make while still keeping the ball in the range of our sight. But it is not everything - eyes (as ears) are instruments that appear in a pair. Moreover, if a pair happens in our body - one of the "member" has to be a dominant over the other...no matter if we are talking about senses but also about arms or legs. There are no ambidextrous persons - one can be close to ambidextrous, but never fully ambidextrous, especially when talking about senses that are subject to our DNA (in short).

Now imagine - a right-handed golfer with a dominant right eye vs. a right-handed golfer with a dominant left eye (BTW, it seldom happens that a right-handed man is a left eye dominant person that may say why only 1% of golfers are being told as supertalented persons). It becomes obvious how much better head turn and much better upper body CoG distribution happens when the head is more in synch with the upper body turn. Look at Hogan (who was reported as left-eye dominant right-handed person) and his head position at the top. Does it disturb in their full excellent upper body turn ? No ! Look at Moe Norman - he was obviously a right-eye dominant person and he had to lift his head a bit up when coming into the top, but his instinct never told him to go further with his backswing and avoid further "collision" between left shoulder and his chin ad to worsen the relation between head position and spine angle.

Therefore, let us say that the limitation is your sight range; I do believe that many golf swings are wrecked because golf teachers are very stubborn as regards the head and its position, especially in the downswing and impact phase. Should the head be before the ball at impact or THE DOMINANT EYE BEFORE THE IMPACT ? Mind you, the head weights a lot and every possible position that is not natural may bring more harm than good. Forcing the head to be entirely behind the ball makes it being out of position in relation to the spine and may bring flaws in ballstriking easily.

In view of the above, it seems very comprehensible, that it is useless to force our bodies to be in position of Hogan while we are right-eye dominant persons; it would sound odd, but the biokinetics answers that e.g. a S&T golf swing pattern may be better suited for such a person; moreover, we cannot forget about the impact of the head movement (or lack of it) on the whole movement of CoG of our bodies in a golf swing motion. The less it is turned back, the less mass moves back. The less mass moves back, the less the CoG shift at the end of backswing happens.
The choice is - either to risk to move less mass of the whole upper body back or to risk to move the head not in synch with the spine turn (which is practically equal to unnecessary spine angle deviations).
If we choose the first option, we shall end with a poorer shoulder turn, shorter backswing, less powerful swing, less coiling, smaller X-factor, etc., BUT WE SHALL REMAIN IN SYNCH WITH OUR SPINE'S MOTION. Of course, we will not be a Re-MAX LD champ, but our accuracy increase tremendously, IMHO.

A word more about the position of the head in realtion to the neck. Note that every great ballstriker's upper spine (watching from a DTL view) is not rigid, they look as a bit hunchbacked at address, and never rigid. Why ? Because they did not force their heads to be in an unnatural position starting from the beginning. They "accepted" the fact that the head weights a lot (especially if one is bent over 30-35 degrees while swinging) and wanted to subdue their head's motion to the spine motion UNTIL THE DOMINANT EYE PREVAILS. They did not want to cheat the sight with a high head position and looking throught the nose.
Moreover, increasing the spine angle (commonly watchable during transition) is always linked to the drop of the head....not coincidentally - the head respondes to the spine angle change, that's why it drops down a bit. What is funny is that hadly anyone see the coexistence of losing the spine angle with the head position and counterbalancing with our tush part. The head is so heavy that any horizontal level change of its position when swinging (while being bent !) may cause us stand up (i.e. lose our tush line). Some of the reason for this common fault may be linked to incorrect head motion during the swing.

Lastly, I have asked the ophtalmology specialist, if there is a possibility of changing the dominance of eyes. Surprisingly, she told me that it is very easy to do it temporarily - it's enough to sharpen the sight of the subdominant eye (e.g. by means of a special contact lens), however, the impact of many such temporary changes is still unknown (as, let's say, all ingerations in our DNA). Thus, I would not recommend anyone thinking about it in order to become a better golfer...:man_in_love:

I wish there are more researches about the impact of eyedness on various motions in sports, especially rotary-type sports, as golf is...it may be more important if we all think.


Cheers

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#7 magnum184

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 09:26 PM

So, popular instruction that has encouraged a high chin at address and throughout the swing has been unbeneficial?

The head, should it be angled with the spine according with how it leans? And this is all tied in with which eye is dominant as far as how much lean should be incorportated?

The dominant eye should be the focus, not the side of the head?

What are some accurate ways of determining which eye is dominant?

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#8 hoganfan924

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:24 PM

View Postmagnum184, on Jul 5 2008, 10:26 PM, said:

So, popular instruction that has encouraged a high chin at address and throughout the swing has been unbeneficial?

The head, should it be angled with the spine according with how it leans? And this is all tied in with which eye is dominant as far as how much lean should be incorportated?

The dominant eye should be the focus, not the side of the head?

What are some accurate ways of determining which eye is dominant?

Mac O'grady believes through his research that it is very important that both eyes look straight out from the face and not down the cheekbones.  Or in other words, the ball must be in the center of the fovial field (central vision).  He says this is very important to the golfers awareness of where the ball is in space relative to the body.  That means the head should be angled down so that the face is looking straight at the ball.  This will result in the cervical spine and thoracic spine having some curvature (DTL view), not the "Military erect" posture that some of today's young guns have (like Adam Scott).  Interestingly, Geoff Mangum, the putting guru also says the exact same thing about the eyes in putting and he's studied a good bit of neuroscience.  So at least Mac O'grady would say that the "high chin" posture commonly taught today is unbeneficial or at least suboptimal.

Also, I think the idea of a dominant eye is a bit overrated.  The important thing according to O'grady is that both eyes remain on the ball through the swing until impact or you lose your depth perception.  Therefore it is the binocual vision offered by 2 eyes that is important, not so much just keeping the dominant eye on the ball.  That said, I guess I'm one of the lucky one's who's left eye dominant but right handed.  This does make it more comfortable for me to pre-turn my head to the right.   Now a one eyed person can play some pretty great golf IMO.  Hogan lost much of the sight in his left eye (his dominant eye according to Dariusz) in the '49 accident but he remained a great ballstriker.   Back when I wore contacts, due to a condition known as GPC, I would often wear only one, for weeks at at time.  I still played some great outfield on my softball team and could chase down the fly balls with only vision in one eye.  So the brain has a great capacity to make these compensations.

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#9 Dariusz J.

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 05:01 AM

Well, I am of the opinion that it all depends on the intentions and the dominant eye. It is in perfect accordance with my theory of limitations. If a right-handed golfer is a left eye dominant person (a perfect scenario) he/she is able to subdue the head motion to the spine movement much better without a necessity of having a "military neck". Such a person is able to obtain a decent shoulder turn without any unnecessary movement of the head in another plane.
A right-eye dominant right-handed golfer has a choice, if I may say it this way; either he turns the upper body more and introduce the change of the head's movement plane (e.g. by raising the chin at address or later in the backswing) or he stops the upper body turn earlier, exactly just before his dominant eye losing the ball from its sight.

The idea of the importance of binocular vision that HoganFan is talking about is very interesting. Now we can see why S&T swing theory is linked strongly to MORAD. I cannot say if the importance of a dominant eye is overrated or not comparing to O'Grady's theory, however, I wish to point out that the latter one is based on much stronger limitations than mine - thus, each great ballstriker should either look a bit S&T-ish or change the plane of the head (and not all of them did it, as we know).
What is certain is that our brain recognized the object as important and the focus is not distracted until our dominant eye sees it. I rather would not think that only binocular vision guarantees it since, IMO, we do not need to see the golf ball in the 3-D space when swinging - it is entirely enough to focus our sight on it as on a point during all the motion.
Nevertheless, despite my doubts, I cannot reject O'Grady's version totally and it may appear that the primary limitation on the head movement is binocular vision and the secon stage limitation is created by a dominant eye. The more it is practically the same while we talk about a right-eye dominant RH person.


Lastly, here is the easy and safe method of determining which eye is dominant:
1) focus your attention on a clear vertical object (door or window frame) that is not very close to your eyes;
2) extend your arm and your index finger and "place" the finger on the vertical object when looking at it with both eyes (it will look as the finger is transparent, since the focus is on the vertical object);
3) close one of your eyes - and:
- if your finger "remains" on the vertical object (in fact, covers it) - this means that it is your dominant eye;
- if your finger "goes" away from the vertical object - this means it is your subdominant eye.

Thanks for your comments, cheers.

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#10 Shaitan

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 07:02 AM

Great stuff JD :clapping:

Another dominant eye test is to get a finished toilet roll, place a ball on the ground. Stand up and a little away from it and centre the ball in the tube with both eyes focusing on it. Close one eye, if you can still see the ball that's your dominant eye, if you can't then your other eye is dominant. I'm left eye dominant :man_in_love:


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#11 zeknik

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 10:44 PM

JD
How many golf sessions do you give a month in regards to your research?
Z

Edited by zeknik, 06 July 2008 - 10:45 PM.


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#12 Dariusz J.

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:50 AM

View Postzeknik, on Jul 6 2008, 10:44 PM, said:

JD
How many golf sessions do you give a month in regards to your research?
Z


Z, the answer is ZERO. It's only the theoretical construct on this stage of things, yet it is partially based on what I can see and understand from the motion of best ballstrikers as well as on my own motion.
That is why I am writing the essence of my biokinetical theory here, where there are excellent and very experienced golf teachers and players from all possible golf schools, so that we all can discuss the most controversial points that surely exist somewhere.
What I can verify myself easily is that theory of limitations works in all possible aspects of human body motions (especially when you do not need to base your motion on a fast subconscious reaction like in tennis when one needs to hit the ball that is in fast movement).


Cheers

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#13 Pole_Position

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 06:09 PM

Dariusz,
Very nice work so far! I have a couple of questions/observations:

1. Iíve always had a problem determining my dominant eye. When I focus on a door jamb with my finger up, I see two distinct images of my finger on either side of the door jamb, with neither image being distinct from the other. I canít decide what eye is dominant because it depends on which image I choose to put over the door jamb. Since I canít literally look through someone elseís eyes I canít tell if this is normal or not LOL!

2.

Quote

Moreover, increasing the spine angle (commonly watchable during transition) is always linked to the drop of the head....not coincidentally - the head respondes to the spine angle change, that's why it drops down a bit. What is funny is that hadly anyone see the coexistence of losing the spine angle with the head position and counterbalancing with our tush part. The head is so heavy that any horizontal level change of its position when swinging (while being bent !) may cause us stand up (i.e. lose our tush line). Some of the reason for this common fault may be linked to incorrect head motion during the swing.

Since the golf swing is a 3 (4?) dimensional process, looking at how the spine/head works in 2 dimensions (video/stills) if very difficult for me. Using the terms ďspine angleĒ for bending towards/away from the ball and ďspine tiltĒ for bending towards/away from the target, I see the typical pro increasing his spine tilt while maintaining his spine angle from transition to impact. To me, the head doesnít move so much down towards the ball as it does down and away from the target, adding tilt to the swing. I believe this is in part to counterbalance the weight shift forward (to the left side) and the momentum of the club. See Trevor Immelmenís swing below.

Immelman.JPG

I believe that, at least with GOOD golfers (myself included), golfers who have early extension (lose spine angle) and lose the tush line typically stall their core rotation (left butt cheek doesnít come back to tush line) to release their lag (sling). From what Iíve seen, the head typically works up and back or stays level and moves back to counteract the targetward momentum and lack of rotation. They still increase their tilt angle, but borrow from their spine angle to do it, if you get my meaning. See Luke Donald below.

LukeDonald.JPG

Iím neither an instructor nor a biokinetics expert, Iíd love to hear your opinion on my theory as to how the head works from transition to imact!

Edited by Pole_Position, 07 July 2008 - 06:33 PM.


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#14 Dariusz J.

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 07:15 PM

View PostPole_Position, on Jul 7 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

Dariusz,
Very nice work so far! I have a couple of questions/observations:

1. Iíve always had a problem determining my dominant eye. When I focus on a door jamb with my finger up, I see two distinct images of my finger on either side of the door jamb, with neither image being distinct from the other. I canít decide what eye is dominant because it depends on which image I choose to put over the door jamb. Since I canít literally look through someone elseís eyes I canít tell if this is normal or not LOL!

2.

Quote

Moreover, increasing the spine angle (commonly watchable during transition) is always linked to the drop of the head....not coincidentally - the head respondes to the spine angle change, that's why it drops down a bit. What is funny is that hadly anyone see the coexistence of losing the spine angle with the head position and counterbalancing with our tush part. The head is so heavy that any horizontal level change of its position when swinging (while being bent !) may cause us stand up (i.e. lose our tush line). Some of the reason for this common fault may be linked to incorrect head motion during the swing.

Since the golf swing is a 3 (4?) dimensional process, looking at how the spine/head works in 2 dimensions (video/stills) if very difficult for me. Using the terms ďspine angleĒ for bending towards/away from the ball and ďspine tiltĒ for bending towards/away from the target, I see the typical pro increasing his spine tilt while maintaining his spine angle from transition to impact. To me, the head doesnít move so much down towards the ball as it does down and away from the target, adding tilt to the swing. I believe this is in part to counterbalance the weight shift forward (to the left side) and the momentum of the club. See Trevor Immelmenís swing below.

Immelman.JPG

I believe that, at least with GOOD golfers (myself included), golfers who have early extension (lose spine angle) and lose the tush line typically stall their core rotation (left butt cheek doesnít come back to tush line) to release their lag (sling). From what Iíve seen, the head typically works up and back to counteract the targetward momentum and lack of rotation. They still increase their tilt angle, but borrow from their spine angle to do it, if you get my meaning. See Luke Donald below.



Iím neither an instructor nor a biokinetics expert, Iíd love to hear your opinion on my theory as to how the head works from transition to imact!

PP,

Thank you. I will try to answer your questions below:

ad.1)  Most probably you keep your finger too close to your eyes when trying to focus your sight on a distant vertical object. Try to extend your arm with the finger as far as possible away from your eyes and when the finger is "set" move your focus on the door jamb.

ad.2) It's a very good observation and I will write some remarks on it when discussing the main body (spine). Just briefly - you are right that the spine moves in three dimensions in a golf swing motion; in fact, the spine movement is a simultaneous combination of tilting (sideways) and bending (forward). The whole situation is a bit complicated since a human spine is not ideally vertical, but let's not deal with it now (it's enough to mention for now that the spine shape in the thorax/neck area is strictly fit to fit the head weight, thus often the head drops down a bit after transition (or better said, the spine lets it drop a bit because it is not stone-stiff.
The most important fact is that the pelvis area, that practically always rules and responds with the CoG shift in 3-D world as well, acts as a perfect counterbalancing instrument for all spine angle variations in 3-D space, since the pelvis can move easily in all directions. However, as I wanted to point out in The Head section, if the head is moving incorrectly in the backswing phase it will affect the level of counterbalancing action of the pelvis as well due to its weight and distance from human whole body CoG.

What can be seen on those two photos is very common when comparing a rotational golfer (in-to-in) against a down-the-line-release golfer (in-to-out). While the first one has to concentrate mainly on maintaining the tush line (because without it he never is able to swing to the inside after impact), the latter one practically keeps the tilt only. The tilt increasement is necessary when a golfer leads the downswing with the hips (CoG shift) and, simultaneously, wants to keep his head before the ball at impact and maintain in a dynamic balance.

BTW, look at Immelmann's head at impact from the DTL view and see that it moves slightly down and forward while Donald's head is moving even slightly backwards - both of them move proportionally to respective changes in the tush area since noone of them wants to lose balance.


Cheers

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#15 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 07:41 PM

Two quick comments on vision (in my own experience).

1) I am right eye dominant and a rightie. I cannot see the ball at the top of my golf swing through my right eye - my nose is in the way. I have no idea if this hinders my golf swing or not. But just the other day I hit an imperfect golf shot, so maybe it does :rolleyes:

2) I also wear progressive bifocals and was curious about what effect, if any, these had on my golf swing. I went through my sock drawer and found a pair of glasses from my pre-bifocal days (15 years ago). I went out to the range to try them out. Single vision aside, I could see OK with them, but it was obvious that something wasn't right. But it wasn't a blurry vision issue as I could read road signs, etc without a problem.

Anyway when I tried to hit the ball, not only could I not hit it - I could not maintain my balance. I would literally fall over (or catch myself with my club) and I have a very controlled swing with good tempo and balance. But I literally could not do anything but swing, miss, and fall over.

I decided that the problem was that the right lens in my glasses was corrected just fine, but the left lenses was WAY off. And when I got to the top and was suddenly looking only through my left (blurry) eye, all hell broke lose. At least that is the best explanation that I've got.

And I have been petrified of changing my glasses ever since that event for fear of no longer being able to hit the ball.

dave

Edited by DaveLeeNC, 07 July 2008 - 07:45 PM.


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#16 Swoosh-Thud

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:33 PM

Great post. Looking forward to more.

Basic anatomy is paramount in understanding the golf swing (just one of the exceptional attributes Slice is gifted with by the way).

Few people understand that the cervical spine articulates with the base of the skull, posteriorly and not centrally. Very important and overlooked focal point in balance.

Yep, 100%......Flippers/DNL release the head tends to raise up, whereas release left/rotary swingers it tends to go down. All in response to balance.......great work. Keep it up.

P.S. Slice talks about all of this on day one- "Ground school." Have you visited Texarkana?
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#17 Pole_Position

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:56 PM

Thanks for the reply, Dariusz

Quote

ad.1) Most probably you keep your finger too close to your eyes when trying to focus your sight on a distant vertical object. Try to extend your arm with the finger as far as possible away from your eyes and when the finger is "set" move your focus on the door jamb.

LOL I think i understand the concept and am doing it correctly. For instance, when I do Shaitan's trick with the toilet paper roll, I see two rolls (kind of like binoculars) and it solely depends on which roll I choose to see the ball through as to which eye is "dominant". Or if I pick a spot in the distance, close my eyes and point at it, then open my eyes, then close one eye at a time my finger will usually be equidistant to the right or left of the target depending on which eye I close. If I shoot pool I'll use my right eye to sight if I'm shooting right-handed, or my left eye if I'm shooting left-handed, etc. The reason I brought it up is because you mentioned that a person can be "trained" to be left-eye dominant; I was wondering if my brain has trained my eyes after 35+ years of golf.

As for the rest of my post, I think we're on the same page...I was having a little problem following your logic but that was my fault (didn't read closely enough to overcome my ignorance of biokinetics).

I'm looking forward to the rest of your presentation!

Mike

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#18 Dariusz J.

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 06:30 AM

Dave, your "adventures" confirm how important is the sight influence on a head movement, and a head movement on overall dynamic body balance and CoG shifts. This is why I am of the opinion that a perfect biokinetical swing motion should be somehow framed between feet and eyes with special particular attention paid to these two extreme points. As someone said, the really great swing starts from the feet, but he forgot to add that the same real great swing must have the head issue solved properly.
If e.g. someone has a great swing foundation (feet/knees/hips) and is trying to deliberately incorporate some commonly known "advices" what to do with the head that are not in accordance with his DNA - his swing motion will never be close to automatic one.




FC, thanks and I also echo your post strongly.
I can see (from several posts of yours in various threads) that your biomechanics knowledge is of great level and your contribution is much appreciated in this thread.
I am glad you mentioned flippers - it is a risky thing what I am going to say know (in fact, I wanted to say this in The Arms chapter), but it's very logic according to my researches. One of the most common culprits of flipping is the incorrect head movement. Imagine a RH golfer with a dominant right eye. He is being taught that the head must stay completely still and be entirely behind the ball at impact. His dominant eye sees that the ball is still a couple of inches forward and his brain makes him subconsciousnessly flip in urge to hit the ball. The whole situation would change diametrally when such a golfer is aware that it is his dominant eye that must be behind the ball, not the entire head.
Many people work very hard on educating their hands in a TGM manner in order to get rid of flipping. It is a great thing to fight against subconscioussness and it surely works, but shouldn't they try to concentrate first on biokinetics, confront the knowledge with their DNAs and let it all happen more automatically, trying to treat the wrists as chains between nunchakoo sticks ? :yes:




PP, if you are interested in trying to change the dominance of your eyes (I was warned to toy with it by the ophtalmology specialist) - it is very easy to do. As I said, a special lens that sharpens the view being put in your subdominant eye does the work. You may always try to cover your dominant eye - then your subdominant eye becomes dominant because it is the only one left that can actually transmit the picture to the brain. Do an experiment yourself - cover your dominant eye and go to hit some balls - you will feel odd at the begininng because the head movement and, consequently, CoG shifts of the whole body will be slightly different. When you accustom to your change - all becomes natural again, but the head movement has changed invisibly for you but "visibly" for your subconsciousness.
It's a fascinating thing. :rolleyes:



Thanks all for your posts, cheers.

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#19 Swoosh-Thud

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 11:17 AM

D. I agree.

The head needs to be steady not still.

Thank you for your kind words. I just wish my body understood what we are talking about. :rolleyes:

The body can not do what the mind does not know..............

Edited by fcavallo, 08 July 2008 - 11:20 AM.

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#20 Pole_Position

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 12:52 PM

Quote

I am glad you mentioned flippers - it is a risky thing what I am going to say know (in fact, I wanted to say this in The Arms chapter), but it's very logic according to my researches. One of the most common culprits of flipping is the incorrect head movement. Imagine a RH golfer with a dominant right eye. He is being taught that the head must stay completely still and be entirely behind the ball at impact. His dominant eye sees that the ball is still a couple of inches forward and his brain makes him subconsciousnessly flip in urge to hit the ball. The whole situation would change diametrally when such a golfer is aware that it is his dominant eye that must be behind the ball, not the entire head.
Many people work very hard on educating their hands in a TGM manner in order to get rid of flipping. It is a great thing to fight against subconscioussness and it surely works, but shouldn't they try to concentrate first on biokinetics, confront the knowledge with their DNAs and let it all happen more automatically, trying to treat the wrists as chains between nunchakoo sticks ?

I like what youíre saying here. Iím a recovering DTL flipper who constantly falls off the wagon, and one of my keys is to release my head through impact (ala Annika). If you want the body to rotate, everything must rotate including the head IMO. When I do this my shots are compressed much better and I have no worries about hooking it. But 30 years of training is hard to overcome and I always seem to revert to keeping my head down and back if I donít keep working on it.

Iím not so sure about keeping only the dominant eye behind the ball, however. I prefer rotating the head so that the dominant eye is LOOKING (or in line with, at an angle) at or ahead of the ball at impact, basically where you want the clubhead to bottom out. As you say, I believe this helps with the subconscious urge to hit the ball; rather youíre swinging through the ball to get to that point. See below, a comparison of what I consider to be more rotational swings (top row, Appelby, Furyk, Allenby) vs. those I consider to be more DTL (Bottom row, Cink, Choi, CHIII):

HeadRotation.JPG

Iím not saying these guys are pure rotational or DTL, just that there tendencies are more one or the other. Itís interesting to note that Immelmenís head is more of a DTL position (IMO) at impact; I personally think that this is a fault of his that restricts his rotation:

ImmelmenHead.JPG


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#21 Dariusz J.

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 03:15 PM

View PostPole_Position, on Jul 8 2008, 12:52 PM, said:

I like what youíre saying here. Iím a recovering DTL flipper who constantly falls off the wagon, and one of my keys is to release my head through impact (ala Annika). If you want the body to rotate, everything must rotate including the head IMO. When I do this my shots are compressed much better and I have no worries about hooking it. But 30 years of training is hard to overcome and I always seem to revert to keeping my head down and back if I donít keep working on it.

Iím not so sure about keeping only the dominant eye behind the ball, however. I prefer rotating the head so that the dominant eye is LOOKING (or in line with, at an angle) at or ahead of the ball at impact, basically where you want the clubhead to bottom out. As you say, I believe this helps with the subconscious urge to hit the ball; rather youíre swinging through the ball to get to that point. See below, a comparison of what I consider to be more rotational swings (top row, Appelby, Furyk, Allenby) vs. those I consider to be more DTL (Bottom row, Cink, Choi, CHIII):

Attachment HeadRotation.JPG

Iím not saying these guys are pure rotational or DTL, just that there tendencies are more one or the other. Itís interesting to note that Immelmenís head is more of a DTL position (IMO) at impact; I personally think that this is a fault of his that restricts his rotation:

Attachment ImmelmenHead.JPG


Great photos, PP. Look especially at Furyk - IMHO, the best downswing in today's golf (and one of the most accurate golfers of all times) - his head turns beautifully in synch with his spine; he is very open with his upper body at impact, thus, if his head looks like Immelmann's one with such an open position at impact, it would mean its movement is completely out of synch. All three golfers from the top row are right eye dominant, I'd bet.
BTW, although Immelmann is claimed to be a rotary golfer and Gary Player said his swing is the closest to Hogan - his downswing is not a great example of a OP/rotary golfer at all and is not even close to Hogan's. I'd risk to agree with your suspicions and say that he is was (and is, by Leadbetter) being taught to keep his entire head behind the ball at impact, while in fact he keeps it even farther back, what partially affect his ability to swing freely left. Hence his problems with hooks so common when a OP golfer hits the ball with not open upper body.
Another interesting thing is to see Choi, who must be 100% right eye dominant golfer trying to keep it entirely behind the ball - the result is horrible - his head position at impact is totally out of synch.

Lastly, you misunderstood a bit the concept of keeping the dominant eye behind the ball. I did not mention that a golfer may not appear that he is looking in front of the ball because his head turns alongside the spin. If you concentrate where is even Furyk's right eye in relation to the ball (not in relation to his head turn) - it is perfectly just behind the ball; his nose is at top of the ball from vertical point of view. IMHO, it cannot go ahead of the ball because such a golfer would be plagued by delofted clubface and fat shots. The side spine tilt must be maintained because the CoG is on top of the lead leg and the balance mut be maintained also in this plane.

Cheers

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#22 PurePursuit

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 03:37 PM

Darius this is excellent stuff, thanks so much for taking the time to post it.

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#23 Pole_Position

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:00 PM

Quote

Lastly, you misunderstood a bit the concept of keeping the dominant eye behind the ball. I did not mention that a golfer may not appear that he is looking in front of the ball because his head turns alongside the spin. If you concentrate where is even Furyk's right eye in relation to the ball (not in relation to his head turn) - it is perfectly just behind the ball; his nose is at top of the ball from vertical point of view. IMHO, it cannot go ahead of the ball because such a golfer would be plagued by delofted clubface and fat shots. The side spine tilt must be maintained because the CoG is on top of the lead leg and the balance mut be maintained also in this plane.

LOL, I knew you were going to say this about Furyk, thatís why I threw him in there, to support your position (about dominant eye position, that is). The problem I see with this is that Furykís head has to be this far forward when you consider how open he is at impact, especially his shoulders. Most golfers canít even come close to Furykís position at impactÖ

Quote

BTW, although Immelmann is claimed to be a rotary golfer and Gary Player said his swing is the closest to Hogan - his downswing is not a great example of a OP/rotary golfer at all and is not even close to Hogan's. I'd risk to agree with your suspicions and say that he is was (and is, by Leadbetter) being taught to keep his entire head behind the ball at impact, while in fact he keeps it even farther back, what partially affect his ability to swing freely left.

I too considered that Immelmenís head position might be a result of Leadbettorís instruction (or at least that Leadbettor never corrected it). That led me to compare Aaron Baddeleyís head position in his swing from when (I believe) he was with Leadbettor to his current ďS & TĒ swing:

BaddsHead.JPG

It appears to me that he has improved his head position and releases his head better nowÖjust an observation.

Looking forward to the rest of your presentation

:rolleyes:

Mike

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#24 Dariusz J.

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:59 PM

Oh, yes, definitely, Mike. For a right eye dominant RH rotary golfer the S&T swing is a very decent alternative from a biokinetical point of view.

Cheers

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#25 Taylormadematt

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:32 PM

Darius, quick question for you. i went to join the RAF (Royal Air Force) in which i had an eye test and was informed that i have full 20/20 vision so i'm neither left or right eye dominant,both are fully equal so where does that leave me?


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#26 Dariusz J.

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:31 PM

View PostTaylormadematt, on Jul 9 2008, 03:32 PM, said:

Darius, quick question for you. i went to join the RAF (Royal Air Force) in which i had an eye test and was informed that i have full 20/20 vision so i'm neither left or right eye dominant,both are fully equal so where does that leave me?


It's a great question and I do not know if I am qualified to answer it correctly. I know that a very small part of human population is ambidextrous, also as regards eyedness. However, it is not enough to give a verdict.
Hypothetically, it is better for a golfer to be a cross-dominant in the sense that a dominant eye is on one side while the distal parts (arms, legs) are on the other. The backswing turn may be bigger, the CoG shift at transition as well, the spine movement full in both planes - while the head is all the time moving properly and in synch - what creates potential advantage. In your shoes, I'd try to play golf with an image of being a left eye dominant person.

I am sorry that my answer cannot be so deep and convincing as you expected for now, but I'll try to research this topic with an ophtalmologist.

BTW, I now wonder if Mike (Pole Position) is not an amidextrous person as well since he was having problems with determining which eye of his is dominant e.g. seeing two fingers instead one while doing the test. It's another question for a specialist.

Cheers

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#27 TheWoat

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:39 PM

View PostDariusz J., on Jul 9 2008, 02:31 PM, said:

View PostTaylormadematt, on Jul 9 2008, 03:32 PM, said:

Darius, quick question for you. i went to join the RAF (Royal Air Force) in which i had an eye test and was informed that i have full 20/20 vision so i'm neither left or right eye dominant,both are fully equal so where does that leave me?


It's a great question and I do not know if I am qualified to answer it correctly. I know that a very small part of human population is ambidextrous, also as regards eyedness. However, it is not enough to give a verdict.
Hypothetically, it is better for a golfer to be a cross-dominant in the sense that a dominant eye is on one side while the distal parts (arms, legs) are on the other. The backswing turn may be bigger, the CoG shift at transition as well, the spine movement full in both planes - while the head is all the time moving properly and in synch - what creates potential advantage. In your shoes, I'd try to play golf with an image of being a left eye dominant person.

I am sorry that my answer cannot be so deep and convincing as you expected for now, but I'll try to research this topic with an ophtalmologist.

BTW, I now wonder if Mike (Pole Position) is not an amidextrous person as well since he was having problems with determining which eye of his is dominant e.g. seeing two fingers instead one while doing the test. It's another question for a specialist.

Cheers

I had the same problem yesterday in determining eye dominance.  But today I am better rested and was able to find out I am Right eye dominant (LH golfer).  I have been told a few times by Docs that I have weaker than normal eye muscles, and I need to "exercise" them more.  On days when I read alot, I at times get soreness in those muscles (feel like headaches).  Great thread BTW

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#28 Bartok

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:48 PM

Hey folks, just a quick note about the 20/20 test result. It is not about eye dominance at all. It simply says that from 20 feet, you see with as well as a "normal" person. In metric, we say 6/6 (as from 6 meters). Btw when I say a "normal" person is a person with no eyes problems for distance sight (don't need eyeglasses to see from distance) They normally use some sort of Snellen test to determine your vision rating...

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#29 Dariusz J.

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 05:30 PM

3. The Main Body

First of all, it should be defined what the term "the main body" means. Upper part leaves no illusions - the main body starts when the neck ends. Lower part is much harder to be defined correctly - some say that the pelvis area belongs to the main body, some says that this part belongs to legs, i.e. is an upper part of the legs that links it to thorax. Both concepts, from biokinetical point of view, are sound.
Nevertheless, I must look at the "big picture" when looking particularly at the golf swing motion, therefore, I treat the pelvis tare as one of three main segments of the main body THAT MAY BE and IS RULED BY LEGS (the border is coming through the hip joints). This specific point of view allows to consider all movements of the pelvis area as one of the main body movements - which is very crucial when describing the transition in the golf swing, i.e. the most crucial of all the moves in this motion (BTW, the only one when the orientation of the movement is asynchronic and opposite).
Besides, the shoulder area may also be ruled by arm motions, however, the fact that the arms, opposite to the legs, do not play any role as a base of the whole body, makes this statement of a second category in this context.

Secondly, it is very important to understand what are the three main sections of the body and why the lower part can move independently on the upper one, even in another direction without thinking about it.
So, the three sections are:
1) shoulders area (from the top of the shoulder joints to the sternum, where the rib cage begins);
2) rib cage area (from the sternum to the end of the last two ribs that are not connected to it);
3) pelvis area (from the end of last rib to the hip joints).
Some may ask why the rib cage is so important to be mentioned as one of the three main parts. The importance is linked to the very important biomechanical fact, namely, that the rib cage prevents the thorax from any lateral motions and, practically, reflects what the spine is doing. OTOH, both shoulders (althought in a very limited way) as well as hips (in much wider way) can be moved in all possible directions, independently on the spine's motion. Moreover, the specificity of the rib cage end allows to define a relatively narrow space (called colloquially "waist") that is responsible for already mentioned ability of the opposite direction independent movement of upper and lower parts of the main body. For the needs of biokinetical theory, the waist is reduced to a thin elastic horizontal stripe, despite the fact that in reality a lot of important muscles are involved there.

The most important role of the main body is to guide the swing motion the way the motion of the two upper distal parts (i.e. arms) can be subconsciousnessly subdued to it automatically. What does that mean - nothing more, nothing less that the main body movement has to be optimal enough to avoid the necessity of conscious arm movements in order to compensate errors when thinking about delivering the clubhead to the ball. Moreover, another important aspect of the main body movement is the ability of creating effortless power. That is why, I regard all swings that are pivot guided as superior to the arm guided ones that are full of timing issues to happen all the time.

Since my theory is based on limitations (because, as I said, this is the most sound way to get rid of timing issues), one can ask what kind of limitations exist in the main body action. Let us start with the upper part, i.e. the shoulder area. Shoulders are able to move independently of the spine, and what is equally important, independently on the arms. If you remember Jim McLean's concept of X-Factor - the very shoulders have their own small X-Factor as well as the possibility of maximizing it. Imagine moving both shoulder joints back Iincreasing of the shoulder X-Factor) or forward (decreasing of it) without any spine movement. If there is a X-Factor involved there must be a limitation.
Therefore, the limitation of the shoulder movement is achieving the biggest possible stretch between both shoulders. It is a very important thing (especially for rear eye dominant golfers whose upper body turn is limited due to the eyedness and, consequently, correct  head movement during backswing) since it allows to gain a decent coiling and power without necessity of turning the hip area too much back. It's becoming obvious that the backswing should be monitored by the rear shoulder movement. Monitoring the backswing by the lead shoulder appears to be the same inefficient as monitoring the hip turn by the lead hip. When saying "monitioring" I do not want to say that the backswing should be initiated or led by the rear shoulder joint - what I wanted to say is that the most efficient way of swinging is when a golfer encounters the limitation in the shoulder area.

Since the rib cage section, as we said moves neutrally (so, there is a X-Factor between shoulders and rib cage) we can move down to the waist and the pelvis area. Since the one of most important goals for a golfer is to create a necessary amount of power (read: clubhead speed at impact), the whole movement cannot be uniform. The waist allows to coil the upper body against the lower body - it happens when the lower body changes direction of turn in relation to the upper body - the transition. Of course, there is another "small" X-Factor between the hips and the rib cage. It constitutes the concept of the "big" X-Factor that was the subject of McLean's life work.
Personally, I think that the real X-Factor is not the maximum angle between hip plane and shoulder plane that a golfer can reach, but specifically, the distance between THE LEAD HIP and THE REAR SHOULDER, i.e. the sum of both "small" X-Factors that is in perfect accordance with the theory of limitations. Hogan knew it and wanted us all to begin the downswing with the hip turn before the shoulders ended backswing and thanks to the very fast movements of the hips to maintain the X-Factor until impact. IMHO, this is the essence of creating lag in a pivot-guided downswing where the arms are subdued to the pivot..
In this point, it is vital to mention that the hips are not just turning. Jim Hardy explanation of the hips motion in a One Plane swing is the best I know. Shortly, the hips move as the eccentric wheel where the focal point is not between them but behind them (roughly said, the tail bone) - neither of the hips are moving forward (to the ball) - that would be impossible in case of imagining the turn of the hips in a circle. It is crucial to understand it when talking about maintaining the X-Factor until impact as well as about counterbalancing the spine bend with maintaining the tush line as well as when talking about the CoG shift in the hips area. The CoG shift, that is unavoidable because of the side spine angle and the momentum of the club, happens automatically when the hip turn is being done correctly the way it has been described above, of course with a great help of the proper legs movement.


Cheers

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#30 Swoosh-Thud

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 09:23 AM

Great stuff Dariusz, superb!! There's a lot more to the big rubber band than just two Xs. I like to think of the core as one big torsion bar, stretched/stressed on the backswing and released on the downswing.

Have you seen these?

  



http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDFM_xFUiPU

Edited by fcavallo, 13 July 2008 - 09:25 AM.

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Vega VM06 50 - 54 - 58 Shimada W
Slighter Auburn

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