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Iím calling BS on 10+ yard gains


112 replies to this topic

#31 bogeypro

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:43 PM

View PostLaymanM, on 10 February 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you wonít gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me Iím wrong...

No manufacture has promised 10 more yards since Taylormade a few years ago...do you live in a hole?

Iím talking about posters that say theyíve gained 10+ yards by switching drivers.

I would agree that forgiveness on less than perfect strikes has gotten much better.  Ball speeds seem to stay up better on off center hits on current heads.

Edited by bogeypro, 10 February 2019 - 10:46 PM.

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#32 MtlJeff

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:49 PM

View Postcardoustie, on 10 February 2019 - 06:52 PM, said:

View PostRodrigoNicely, on 10 February 2019 - 05:43 PM, said:

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you won’t gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me I’m wrong...




What do you care!?! If someone is picking up a gain good for them. It’s not unheard of that a driver fits someone better than another. I couldn’t hit G400 max to save my life consistently. My G400 lst is almost automatic. Same shaft and everything.

Me too, LST amazing ... max was atrocious

Oh careful man, you don't want to poke the bear like that.

Two things that will get you hate mail on WRX:
1) Bad mouth a popular Ping driver
2) Say that if you practiced like a pro for a year you could get to a +5 handicap.

I've said both things so i would know! And i use the MAX!!!!! I just don't think it's some kind of revelation. It's just super forgiving

Edited by MtlJeff, 10 February 2019 - 10:50 PM.

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#33 breakfree40

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:48 AM

I believe that properly fit vs properly fit and center strike vs center strike you are correct, OP.

However: if you had a properly fit driver from 4-5 years ago and you missed the center letís say high toe by a touch.  When you compare results of that miss to a properly fit driver from this current crop (same swing, same miss off the center) then I believe that you would absolutely gain 10 yards by using one of todayís drivers. AND more importantly I think that dispersion overall would be better as a result.  

Sweet spots are growing, so to speak.
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#34 dpb5031

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:02 AM

View PostLaymanM, on 10 February 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you wonít gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me Iím wrong...

No manufacture has promised 10 more yards since Taylormade a few years ago...do you live in a hole?

...and to be fair,Talormade's claims were based largely on the fitting process of optimizing launch and spin numbers.
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#35 breakfree40

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:31 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 11 February 2019 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostLaymanM, on 10 February 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you wonít gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me Iím wrong...

No manufacture has promised 10 more yards since Taylormade a few years ago...do you live in a hole?

...and to be fair,Talormade's claims were based largely on the fitting process of optimizing launch and spin numbers.

Also to be fair one should be able to gain 10 yards from their gamer if they change the goalposts to super high launch and sub 1700 spin.  Thatís just simply not playable as a gamer with golf scores in mind... hence the gigantic love/hate sldr thread and the fact that no one should be using it for anything other than a scramble. IMO of course.

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#36 scooterboy59

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:39 AM

If I get 5+. I buy that club. 5 yards can get you and extra 10+ at times. It also might mean blowing it over that bunker at the corner of the dogleg or flying that hill to the down slope and picking up a extra 20 yards of roll. This is why buying I would buy.

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#37 VA golfer

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:44 AM

I think the new drivers this year are all seeing increased ball speeds on the misses. In other words they have been able to see gains in a larger area of the face. The way that I understand it is there is a max on CT but...


The governing bodies have set a CT limit for drivers of 239 microseconds. A microsecond is one-millionth of a second, so 239-millionths of a second is the prescribed limit on how much time that steel ball and the driver face can be in contact. However, the governing bodies allow a tolerance of 18 microseconds, so as long as the characteristic time measures at 257 microseconds (239 plus the tolerance of 18), a driver is ruled conforming for spring-like effect. A CT reading above 257 means the driver is non-conforming.

With all that being said form my understanding all of the manufacturers this year are pushing their drivers right up to the 257 limit where as in the past they were at 239 plus or minus. They have been able to push their drivers right up to the legal limit through greater quality control by testing every driver head before it leaves the factory.  This includes Titleist, Taylormade and Callaway that I have heard. So 10 yards is not out of the question even if you were properly fit for a driver in the past. You could have had a driver that was 239 or 240 or 245. But at 257 properly fit you should see some gains and forgiveness gains also. Look at he tour issue driver head labels that you see for sale many of them list a CT of  around 250 some of them way below that. I believe once you see the tour issue heads from this years heads for sale you are going to see higher numbers closer to the 257 mark.

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#38 reider69

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:07 AM

For the first time in my life I have a semi repeatable driver swing.  I am playing a F7 with a shaft I like the feel of at a loft setting I guessed at.  I anticipate when I get fitted by the local Mizuno Rep this spring I will see major gains in distance  based solely on having a proper fit that is based on real data.  After that I doubt I will ever see another gain like that as I am getting north of 40.  I will just try and maintain the distance I have with new gear every few years.
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#39 596

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:15 AM

I play with a few guys (all 3) that have bought drivers from me and added at least 10 yards if not more.  One bought my 10.5* K15 and gained at least 15 yards and was much straighter.  One purchased my G30 SFT and gained 10, and one bought my Ping G SFT and gained tons of accuracy and at least 10 yards.

These are the guys that don't take lessons , they don't follow the latest and greatest from the OEMs, they have no idea what a fitting is and they play at least 3 days a week.  So yes, they all saw big improvements but were never fit previously.

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#40 Nard_S

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:16 AM

It's human nature do something better with a new tool. After the honeymoon, things revert to norm. So 10 yards w/ "new" driver is not outlandish What might be is that it goes beyond  3 months.


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#41 bogeypro

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:39 AM

Several good points here:

1) Ball speed gains on off center hits are better now.  
2) peopleís body changes since last fitting could be a big factor

Good discussion
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#42 bladehunter

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:53 AM

View PostMtlJeff, on 10 February 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Disagree....And there's pretty much zero question that i'm right at least in that this will not apply to everyone , or even almost everyone

If you carry the ball 280 for example, 10 yards is 3.5% of your total distance. That is really not that much. A low spin head versus a normal head, even with the same loft and shaft, you could see a 10yd difference for sure.

If you carry 250yds, we're talking 4% of your total

I do not believe that all driver heads are within 4% of each other for every possible swing type and swing speed. I'm very confident that if you gave most golfers the ability to test every driver on the market with the same loft and shaft, there'd be a 10yd variance between the longest and shortest if they can carry the ball anywhere close to 250 or longer

If your current driver is one that you were properly fit for and is <6-7 years old. Than no you probably wouldn't gain 10 however. But i would strongly disagree that all drivers are basically the same

Have to agree with Jeff.  With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers.  I donít always play the longest head Iíve hit.  I play the one I can control.

Not to mention the fact that a true fitting isnít available  to most people.  Going to the big box and hitting 5 stock shafts isnít a fitting.  Put it this way.  If you havenít walked out of the facility with the very head and shaft in hand that you tested you havenít been actually fit into anything.  Iím talking the test head.

You think the tour van guys make you a test driver , you test it on trackman and on course , love it then they order an ď identical ď one from the factory ?  Nope. You hit that one. The one that  worked.  ď fittingsĒ are mostly a farce.

Edited by bladehunter, 11 February 2019 - 09:57 AM.

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#43 EddieEdwards

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:57 AM

I gain 10 yrds every year.

















When the temp warms up and the courses dry out.

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#44 lefty1978

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:04 AM

I'll take my 29 yr old self and my 07 Burner over my 41 yr old self with epic sz.
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Ping G30 14.5į 3W w/ Graffaloy Prolaunch axis red 60
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--or--
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#45 gvogel

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:19 AM

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

View PostLaymanM, on 10 February 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you won't gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me I'm wrong...

No manufacture has promised 10 more yards since Taylormade a few years ago...do you live in a hole?

I'm talking about posters that say they've gained 10+ yards by switching drivers.

I would agree that forgiveness on less than perfect strikes has gotten much better.  Ball speeds seem to stay up better on off center hits on current heads.

I would be surprised if 10+ yards on a launch monitor translates to a real gain on the golf course.

Also, consistency and straight count for more than outright best launch monitor numbers when you actually play golf.

On Sundays, I used to play hickory

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#46 rgk5

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:23 AM

Now according to Bobcat, we would ALL get at least 10 more years with his SLDR C. :derisive:

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#47 gvogel

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:45 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 February 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 10 February 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Disagree....And there's pretty much zero question that i'm right at least in that this will not apply to everyone , or even almost everyone

If you carry the ball 280 for example, 10 yards is 3.5% of your total distance. That is really not that much. A low spin head versus a normal head, even with the same loft and shaft, you could see a 10yd difference for sure.

If you carry 250yds, we're talking 4% of your total

I do not believe that all driver heads are within 4% of each other for every possible swing type and swing speed. I'm very confident that if you gave most golfers the ability to test every driver on the market with the same loft and shaft, there'd be a 10yd variance between the longest and shortest if they can carry the ball anywhere close to 250 or longer

If your current driver is one that you were properly fit for and is <6-7 years old. Than no you probably wouldn't gain 10 however. But i would strongly disagree that all drivers are basically the same

Have to agree with Jeff.  With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers.  I don't always play the longest head I've hit.  I play the one I can control.

Not to mention the fact that a true fitting isn't available  to most people.  Going to the big box and hitting 5 stock shafts isn't a fitting.  Put it this way.  If you haven't walked out of the facility with the very head and shaft in hand that you tested you haven't been actually fit into anything.  I'm talking the test head.

You think the tour van guys make you a test driver , you test it on trackman and on course , love it then they order an " identical " one from the factory ?  Nope. You hit that one. The one that  worked.  " fittings" are mostly a farce.

This^.  +1.
On Sundays, I used to play hickory

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#48 J2putts

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:55 AM

Gains are based on a properly fitted driver against a non fit .
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#49 nsxguy

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:43 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 February 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 10 February 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Disagree....And there's pretty much zero question that i'm right at least in that this will not apply to everyone , or even almost everyone

If you carry the ball 280 for example, 10 yards is 3.5% of your total distance. That is really not that much. A low spin head versus a normal head, even with the same loft and shaft, you could see a 10yd difference for sure.

If you carry 250yds, we're talking 4% of your total

I do not believe that all driver heads are within 4% of each other for every possible swing type and swing speed. I'm very confident that if you gave most golfers the ability to test every driver on the market with the same loft and shaft, there'd be a 10yd variance between the longest and shortest if they can carry the ball anywhere close to 250 or longer

If your current driver is one that you were properly fit for and is <6-7 years old. Than no you probably wouldn't gain 10 however. But i would strongly disagree that all drivers are basically the same

Have to agree with Jeff.  With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers.  I don't always play the longest head I've hit.  I play the one I can control.

Not to mention the fact that a true fitting isn't available  to most people.  Going to the big box and hitting 5 stock shafts isn't a fitting.  Put it this way.  If you haven't walked out of the facility with the very head and shaft in hand that you tested you haven't been actually fit into anything.  I'm talking the test head.

You think the tour van guys make you a test driver , you test it on trackman and on course , love it then they order an " identical " one from the factory ?  Nope. You hit that one. The one that  worked.  " fittings" are mostly a farce.

Jeff's incredibly large sweeping generalization of 10 yards at a minimum carry of 250 would no doubt be accurate.

According to Flightscope, at an uber high ball speed (180 MPH) launched at 14* the difference between 2800 RPM and 2200 RPM is 7 yards carry.

At lower SS the difference lessens. e.g. at 140 MPH the difference is 2 yards carry.

Further, although I'm not totally surprised you think "fittings are a farce", I disagree with the old "buy the demo head and shaft". Tolerances today are much better than they used to be for both the head AND the shafts.

Now most stores that I'm aware of will not SELL the demo.

And while a terrific player like yourself, say scratch or better, MAY notice a difference between the demo setup and the one he bought, it's not going to be so different with the purchased setup than the demo setup that he'd have to give the purchased one the boot. And with so many adjustments available nowadays he could probably tweak it and get it just right anyway.

And for the average player, the vast majority of them us will never notice a difference.

Tour Pros ? No worries. The manufacturer will give 'em whatever they want. ;)

Edited by nsxguy, 11 February 2019 - 12:05 PM.

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#50 GolfChannel

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:54 AM

I hit the ball shorter with the driver now than I did 5 years ago, but I'm also older and fatter, so it's probably that.

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Ball: Callaway Chromesoft 2018 (Yellow)

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#51 nick8400

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:16 PM

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you won't gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me I'm wrong...

I purchased the Cobra F9 this year after seeing gains for the first time in several years. Maybe even a decade to be honest. The F9 is legitimately 8 yards longer for me in the air. It was quite shocking to hit 5-6 drivers with almost identical carry and then all of the sudden see 8 yards over and over with the Cobra. I am not an equipment junkie and don't take changes lightly. But this was a no brainer. I find it easy to hit high draws and can even hit power fades that are not spin shots with this thing. I was playing the Callaway 816 Double Diamond something or another and was happy with my distance until the Cobra blew me away.

Maybe this thing was made just for me :)

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#52 gibbyfan

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:59 PM

I have been fit a couple of times within the last few months. For the driver, yes you can find more yards with being fit. When I am at a fitting or working with my instructor I only look at the carry numbers. So, looking at my data from a Club Champion Fitting my gamer from last year had an average carry of 246.7 carry, but during my Tour Spec in late January I have 5 different combinations that had carry averages around the 260 ( +/- 4 yards). There was 1 combo that was 270 average but I hit it all over the place and was spinning the driver too low.

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#53 GolfChannel

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 01:01 PM

View Postnick8400, on 11 February 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you won't gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me I'm wrong...

I purchased the Cobra F9 this year after seeing gains for the first time in several years. Maybe even a decade to be honest. The F9 is legitimately 8 yards longer for me in the air. It was quite shocking to hit 5-6 drivers with almost identical carry and then all of the sudden see 8 yards over and over with the Cobra. I am not an equipment junkie and don't take changes lightly. But this was a no brainer. I find it easy to hit high draws and can even hit power fades that are not spin shots with this thing. I was playing the Callaway 816 Double Diamond something or another and was happy with my distance until the Cobra blew me away.

Maybe this thing was made just for me :)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm willing to bet someone already said this, but I think most gains (if any) are down to the improvement in shaft technology. Now manufacturers are working to maximize forgiveness and speed across the entire face. That said, that's why speed gains like that seen with the F9 are so consequential if realized for the average golfer.
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#54 Sparky14

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:01 PM

At my age, I have to get the new driver each year so that I only lose 10 yards each year.

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#55 gentles

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:07 PM

View Postbogeypro, on 11 February 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

Several good points here:

1) Ball speed gains on off center hits are better now.  
2) people's body changes since last fitting could be a big factor

Good discussion

I tested out my G400 and 2016 M2, both with the same Aldila Tour Blue 75x. Ball speed was similar, spin was 2000 on M2, 2750 on G400 = more than 10 yards difference at my 15* launch angle. Whether I can control 2000 spin on the course is a different question, but that wasn't the original proposition.

My guess is that 90% of the "gains" we see seeing are players who are optimising the spin/launch combo. With identical ball speed, spin & launch can have a huge impact on total distance.

Just keeping the shaft the same doesn't fix that problem either - optimal depends on both shaft and head. If I switch to a super low/low shaft the G400 might produce similar numbers to M2.

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#56 roundersmitty

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:12 PM

so if we are talking misses....some have larger sweet spot, some are more  forgiving high on the face, some more forgiving low on the face, some face technology helps some more than others bring misses to fairway.  if misses are 15 yards better on average....than the gains can be more than 10yards. most people are looking into a grouping of results when data is telling them to switch.
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#57 bladehunter

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:14 PM

View Postnsxguy, on 11 February 2019 - 11:43 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 11 February 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 10 February 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Disagree....And there's pretty much zero question that i'm right at least in that this will not apply to everyone , or even almost everyone

If you carry the ball 280 for example, 10 yards is 3.5% of your total distance. That is really not that much. A low spin head versus a normal head, even with the same loft and shaft, you could see a 10yd difference for sure.

If you carry 250yds, we're talking 4% of your total

I do not believe that all driver heads are within 4% of each other for every possible swing type and swing speed. I'm very confident that if you gave most golfers the ability to test every driver on the market with the same loft and shaft, there'd be a 10yd variance between the longest and shortest if they can carry the ball anywhere close to 250 or longer

If your current driver is one that you were properly fit for and is <6-7 years old. Than no you probably wouldn't gain 10 however. But i would strongly disagree that all drivers are basically the same

Have to agree with Jeff.  With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers.  I don't always play the longest head I've hit.  I play the one I can control.

Not to mention the fact that a true fitting isn't available  to most people.  Going to the big box and hitting 5 stock shafts isn't a fitting.  Put it this way.  If you haven't walked out of the facility with the very head and shaft in hand that you tested you haven't been actually fit into anything.  I'm talking the test head.

You think the tour van guys make you a test driver , you test it on trackman and on course , love it then they order an " identical " one from the factory ?  Nope. You hit that one. The one that  worked.  " fittings" are mostly a farce.

Jeff's incredibly large sweeping generalization of 10 yards at a minimum carry of 250 would no doubt be accurate.

According to Flightscope, at an uber high ball speed (180 MPH) launched at 14* the difference between 2800 RPM and 2200 RPM is 7 yards carry.

At lower SS the difference lessens. e.g. at 140 MPH the difference is 2 yards carry.

Further, although I'm not totally surprised you think "fittings are a farce", I disagree with the old "buy the demo head and shaft". Tolerances today are much better than they used to be for both the head AND the shafts.

Now most stores that I'm aware of will not SELL the demo.

And while a terrific player like yourself, say scratch or better, MAY notice a difference between the demo setup and the one he bought, it's not going to be so different with the purchased setup than the demo setup that he'd have to give the purchased one the boot. And with so many adjustments available nowadays he could probably tweak it and get it just right anyway.

And for the average player, the vast majority of them us will never notice a difference.

Tour Pros ? No worries. The manufacturer will give 'em whatever they want. ;)

Just not true. Thereís a reason why ping is The only oem that will sell you a certified loft head.  The others are all over the map and donít want to offer the service to look for a loft.  

And 800 rpm is the range?   Ive seen much wider than that shaft to shaft and head to head of different models.  If that was the window for high speed players it would be easy to find a head that worked.  

I Stand by the statement.  Tolerances are better than persimmon days but not nearly good enough to order blind and call it fitted.  

Good example. Slant neck spider putters. I have a habit of looking at everyone I see.  And 75% sit closed on their own.  Rarely do they sit square.  And almost never slightly open.  Can they be bent. Sure.  At cost of paint.  But Iíd never order one sight unseen.

And lastly. Iím not talking about big box demo heads.  Iím talking a green grass fitter who will take the time to demo his stock of heads.  Iíve done this more than once last year through several contacts and itís eye opening the difference you can see swapping the same shaft into a different head of the same brand and model.  Be it loft , weight , or face angle combo it makes a difference.

Ever hear the story about DJ having cow when someone started to adjust the weights in his new m3 head ?  How many you think he hit to find that one?  By the reaction Iíd say dozens.     Ever pay attention to the tour issue Taylormade drivers and woods for sale ?   All have spec stickers when new. The lie , actual loft , CT , and face angles are all over the map.  Just picking a head blindly is akin to having a lob wedge that says 60 degrees but for some reason you hit it as long as your 56.  Wouldnít you check the loft of the 56 and 60 and bend both to proper gap of need be ?    Problem is you canít bend modern drivers and adjustable hosels donít truly work exactly like getting the proper spec head does.  Say you fit for a 10 degree real loft and a 1 degree open face angle.  They order one that comes in and is a 8 degree loft and has a 1 degree closed face angle.  If you open the face with adjustment youíre going down in loft.  So if you hit the proper head Welll. How do you think youíll hit a head with 2-3 degrees less loft and a shut face ?  I can answer that.  Like poop.

Edited by bladehunter, 12 February 2019 - 07:24 PM.

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#58 sdandrea

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:44 PM

There is the old adage that if we actually gained all the cumulative distance claims the OEMs have made since the dawn of thin-faced titanium heads, we'd be hitting 800 yard drives.  So in that sense, the claims are BS.
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#59 starrman77

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:50 PM

Ever notice that when then say their driver is 10 yards longer, they never say longer compared to what?
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#60 steph_alex

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:55 PM

View Postbogeypro, on 10 February 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

My point is this:  most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance.  If you are properly fit, you won't gain 10+ yards going from one to another.  

Convince me I'm wrong...

I get your idea but you're not 100% correct.
What you should say is that given the exact same speed and launch angle characteristics, there shouldn't be a 10 yards difference between modern heads.
However, it could only be true if it was a robot swinging the club with 100% repeatability and center strikes and not humans swinging the club.
And even if we'd have a robot swing all the modern heads at the same speed, you think we'd have the exact same distance?
I'm pretty sure we'd see a 10 yard gap between two heads. Mainly because not two heads produce the same amount of spin and because some faces are hotter than others.
What about the ball? The ball would also produce different results.
You can't look at it as an ultimate when there are so many variables that can alter the result.

And what is being properly fit?

Distance is first of all a factor of speed.
I currently game a TS2 and my numbers would be considered as correct from a fitting point of view and my stats show I've been hitting 65% of fairways.
I tried a PING G400 during a demo day and I was swinging it 4/6 mph faster which would equal to a 10 yard gain given the same spin.
Does it mean I am not fit properly? Would PING be wrong to say I gained 10 yards with their heads?

Another important factor is spin.
Where you impact the ball on the face can change spin up to 1500/2000 rpm which equals over 20 yards in total distance.
Some face will be better for you than others and some faces more spinny than others.

This is why there are different models for different people for different swings and why certain models can offer real gains to someone over another model.
You should look at performance not as an absolute but as a variable and differentiate that from marketing claims.
There is no best driver, only the best driver for you.


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