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Increasing apex of ball flight with irons


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#1 Ray Jackson

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:24 PM

Trying to increase the apex of ball flight with my irons and would like to know what are the driving forces to do that.

So without flipping and adding loft at impact what increases ball flight (apex), is it swing speed, could my angle of attack be too steep, not enough spin, open face angle at impact, height of hands at top of backswing, downswing plane........

I know there could be a combination of many things but welcome the thoughts.

I am around a 0 index, 105 driver swing speed, 85-86 with a 6 iron -3 to -4 AOA with 6 iron

I don't want to give away my current apex, but want to know the variables that I will then work on.

I have access to Trackman.

Thanks in advance


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#2 ksgolfcoach

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:38 PM

Itís tough to answer without more information, especially launch angle, spin and angle of descent. Ball speed is the primary factor, launch angle is another factor for sure but I would never tell you to try and increase it without knowing all your numbers. With your swing speed, 75 feet or higher would be fine. May I ask why you donít want to give your current apex?

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#3 Socrates

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:44 PM

In for the potential answers.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
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Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
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#4 Ray Jackson

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:52 PM

View Postksgolfcoach, on 07 February 2019 - 11:38 PM, said:

It's tough to answer without more information, especially launch angle, spin and angle of descent. Ball speed is the primary factor, launch angle is another factor for sure but I would never tell you to try and increase it without knowing all your numbers. With your swing speed, 75 feet or higher would be fine. May I ask why you don't want to give your current apex?

Launch angle is 15.5  - 16.5 I think
Spin is mid 4,000s to 5200 (that I think is low)
Apex is 75-85

I want to get the apex to 90 and increase the spin, but maybe at my 86 swing speed that isn't possible.
I am working on increasing that from a physical perspective but I am sure my sequencing needs a lot of work too.
Also my hands are not high enough at the top of the backswing, should probably shorten the backswing.
I play a Pro V1x (pre 2018 version)

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#5 ksgolfcoach

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:01 AM

View PostRay Jackson, on 07 February 2019 - 11:52 PM, said:

View Postksgolfcoach, on 07 February 2019 - 11:38 PM, said:

It's tough to answer without more information, especially launch angle, spin and angle of descent. Ball speed is the primary factor, launch angle is another factor for sure but I would never tell you to try and increase it without knowing all your numbers. With your swing speed, 75 feet or higher would be fine. May I ask why you don't want to give your current apex?

Launch angle is 15.5  - 16.5 I think
Spin is mid 4,000s to 5200 (that I think is low)
Apex is 75-85

I want to get the apex to 90 and increase the spin, but maybe at my 86 swing speed that isn't possible.
I am working on increasing that from a physical perspective but I am sure my sequencing needs a lot of work too.
Also my hands are not high enough at the top of the backswing, should probably shorten the backswing.
I play a Pro V1x (pre 2018 version)

Are we talking about six iron? Spin is low, was this off of grass or mat and indoors or out? Youíre not going to get up to 90 feet with your swing speed, and 75-85 is just fine. Have to find out why the spin is so low but hitting off a mat can do it


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#6 powerfade66

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:18 AM

Just read something relevant in Hank Haneyís book on Tiger. He uses a fuller throwing release in the US for higher trajectory and a condensed shorter release in The Open. Tiger only hit one driver in his 2006 win.

The flip has become such a thing to be avoided that it gets confused with simply hitting it closer to low point or altering weight distribution which isnít necessarily a bad thing. You donít see as many of the long right arm finishes these days.

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#7 Socrates

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:55 PM

You need to fill us in on what kind of irons and shafts you are playing.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
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Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
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#8 Cwebb

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 01:07 PM

What model irons and shafts are you using?  It's very possible to change nothing about your swing, and get the apex up with equipment details.

One of the details I look at in detail, is the iron designs Actual Vertical COG.  If it's too high for the given player, it makes everything a struggle

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#9 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 01:07 PM

Continue your swing to a full high finish.

Or swing like Rory and get some increased parametric forces going.

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#10 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 01:17 PM

What is the landing angle? Spin is definitely low. Could be hitting off mat or shaft. I wouldn't really want to see you launch it much higher


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#11 8overpar

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 01:27 PM

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 08 February 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

Continue your swing to a full high finish.

Or swing like Rory and get some increased parametric forces going.
This works for my swing. I hit one right of right on my 16th hole of the day. Very mature (tall) stand of trees between myself and the correct fairway. 9 iron with a high (for me) finish and managed to clear the hurdle and continue my round.
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#12 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:37 AM

View PostCwebb, on 08 February 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

What model irons and shafts are you using?  It's very possible to change nothing about your swing, and get the apex up with equipment details.

One of the details I look at in detail, is the iron designs Actual Vertical COG.  If it's too high for the given player, it makes everything a struggle

Taylormade 770s with C Taper lite stiff shafts.
yes those were 6 iron numbers
was hitting indoors off a fairly fluffy mat

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#13 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:41 AM

View PostRay Jackson, on 09 February 2019 - 12:37 AM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 08 February 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

What model irons and shafts are you using?  It's very possible to change nothing about your swing, and get the apex up with equipment details.

One of the details I look at in detail, is the iron designs Actual Vertical COG.  If it's too high for the given player, it makes everything a struggle

Taylormade 770s with C Taper lite stiff shafts.
yes those were 6 iron numbers
was hitting indoors off a fairly fluffy mat


hit some shots with 790s with same c taper lite stiff and spin went up and apex a little higher, I guess that's the easy answer, change irons

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#14 ksgolfcoach

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:09 AM

C-taper are meant to keep the ball down and the spin down. Also, I just donít believe TrackMan, or any radar, indoors. Find a way to hit some outside on grass before you start changing things

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#15 jakenlson0311

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:36 AM

View Postksgolfcoach, on 09 February 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

C-taper are meant to keep the ball down and the spin down. Also, I just don’t believe TrackMan, or any radar, indoors. Find a way to hit some outside on grass before you start changing things
This is incorrect. The C-Taper lite is designed for mid launch low spin. The regular C-taper was low, low, still There are defiantly higher launching shafts out there.

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#16 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:04 AM

The P770s and P790s have about the same VCoG so you won't see much difference there due to that clubhead design feature.  I just did an iron shaft fitting at CC.  My numbers with the P790 were 76 mph, low 4000s spin, and apex in the low 70s so clubhead speed is not holding you back.  The shaft was a KBS Tour. I am a sweeper and generally have a low AoA (couple degrees down).  If they ever email my numbers to me I will post here.
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#17 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:13 AM

View Postksgolfcoach, on 09 February 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

C-taper are meant to keep the ball down and the spin down. Also, I just don't believe TrackMan, or any radar, indoors. Find a way to hit some outside on grass before you start changing things

KS
Thanks, yeah tough to get on TM on a grass range. The apex isn't hurting my regular play as the greens aren't super firm, however in tournament golf it could when I play away, hence the goal to increase the flight. I know I need to get my shoulder plane more vertical than its flat position right now and I think that will help. I know because for short periods of time I get it right and the flight does increase, but then I slip back into old habits. If I could work out how i'd post a recent driver swing video and you can see what I mean = hands very low at top of backswing.

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#18 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:16 AM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 February 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

The P770s and P790s have about the same VCoG so you won't see much difference there due to that clubhead design feature.  I just did an iron shaft fitting at CC.  My numbers with the P790 were 76 mph, low 4000s spin, and apex in the low 70s so clubhead speed is not holding you back.  The shaft was a KBS Tour. I am a sweeper and generally have a low AoA (couple degrees down).  If they ever email my numbers to me I will post here.


Thanks for the info. I was considering switching to the 790s (buddy would give me a good deal) but I got a handful of rockets with them where the distance control was hard so I am skeptical. The problem I have found with the high launch iron shafts in the past is that they have been lighter in weight and that has affected my timing.
I think the real issues are my shoulder plane/tilt and left hand rotation down to the ground at impact is lacking still. so will work on that.

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#19 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:33 AM

Anyone who knows how to post a video please PM me

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#20 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:38 AM

After reading all the posts, I think you might be looking to change something when there really isn't anything wrong.  Maybe you could find a way to increase the clubhead speed, but I would be vary wary of "fixing" your swing.  Likely the easiest/safest method to increase your apex, is to find a club head design that you like that increases the launch angle (keeping everything else the same).

Upload a video to a website and then paste the url link into a post.

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#21 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:41 AM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 February 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

The P770s and P790s have about the same VCoG so you won't see much difference there due to that clubhead design feature.  I just did an iron shaft fitting at CC.  My numbers with the P790 were 76 mph, low 4000s spin, and apex in the low 70s so clubhead speed is not holding you back.  The shaft was a KBS Tour. I am a sweeper and generally have a low AoA (couple degrees down).  If they ever email my numbers to me I will post here.
Here are my shaft fitting numbers from CC yesterday.  Took out the obvious clankers.

6iTM P790 kbs tour
     CHS BS SF Spin     Carry Total Launch  SS Apex Land. Ang.
      Mph Mph                  Rpm Yds Yds Deg Ft Ft Deg
1 75.1 106.2 1.42 4043 155.7 172.1 18.3 10.9R 71 39.6
2 76.3 107.1 1.4 4075 157.3 173.6 18.3 22.7R 72 40
3 75.3 106.8 1.42 4270 155.6 171.4 17.9 24.3R 71 39.8
4 75.9 107.4 1.41 4309 156.5 172.2 17.7 12.1R 71 39.8
5 76 106.4 1.4 3853 156 174 17.9 1.2L 68 38.4
6 75.8 107.1 1.41 4188 156.5 172.6 17.8 8.9R 70 39.6
Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/ UST Recoil 680 F4
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Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM5 58/07 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
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Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow

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#22 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 11:29 AM

http://youtu.be/JvN6FNbbFUY

Edited by Ray Jackson, 12 February 2019 - 02:13 PM.


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#23 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 11:42 AM

View PostRay Jackson, on 09 February 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

I see Monte is lurking so I will defer any comments to him as why not get the best info.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc
Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Scotty X7M Dual 38"
MCC Align Midsize

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#24 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:15 PM

View PostSocrates, on 09 February 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

View PostRay Jackson, on 09 February 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

I see Monte is lurking so I will defer any comments to him as why not get the best info.

Be gentle people :)

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#25 starsail85

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:19 PM

Weaken your lofts

If you still canít get it up , go to the doctor

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Mizuno ST190 / AD DI 7x
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Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34Ē

Ball - pro v1x
Grips - Crossline cord

Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58

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#26 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 05:05 PM

View PostRay Jackson, on 09 February 2019 - 12:15 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 09 February 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

View PostRay Jackson, on 09 February 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

I see Monte is lurking so I will defer any comments to him as why not get the best info.

Be gentle people :)
Kinda flat.  Okay, really flat, but it works.  I'll assume the 0 hcp isn't fake news.  You might be in for a world of hurt trying to change things just to get a higher ball flight.  I would recommend a move to Texas and you will be a killer in the wind.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc
Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Scotty X7M Dual 38"
MCC Align Midsize

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#27 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:33 PM

0 isn’t fake news, I know my limitations and + handicap putter. Used the 790s again today and they look like there making a difference.

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#28 getitdaily

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:41 PM

Have you tried simply moving to a higher spin ball? Pro v1x is low spin. Regular pro v1 may Apex higher by spinning more.

Edited by getitdaily, 09 February 2019 - 08:41 PM.


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#29 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:42 PM

Using a pro V1x pre 2018 version right now. The 790s seem to be making a difference with that ball

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#30 Ray Jackson

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:12 PM

I will get back on Trackman with the 790s after another round and study the spin numbers. Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I will also work on that backswing shoulder plane and post another video.


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