Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

* * * * * 1 votes

HOLD EVERYTHING: New scientific study says PUTT WITH THE PIN OUT!


64 replies to this topic

#31 dhc1

dhc1

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 885 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 56198
  • Joined: 05/20/2008
  • Location:NYC
  • Handicap:5.6
GolfWRX Likes : 220

Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:44 AM

View PostCasualLie, on 06 February 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

I have not read the studies that closely; just a scan.  I get the "theories."  But let's talk reality.  As others have mentioned before, "holing speed" is going to be a big factor.  Pelz came up with his 17" speed theory to overcome the "lumpy donut" and he knows from lots of data that most weekenders are leaving the putt short (not including the people who can't putt to begin with and jam everything 5 feet by).  

The 30" holing speed is interesting to me.  I wouldn't mind seeing the logic behind that.  It seems to me, generally speaking, tour players may have more speed to hold a line better and they practice so much on the short putts they do not mind being 2 1/2 feet by.  That kind of speed freaks out most weekenders.  

I don't know how you measure having the pin in gets you better chance through improved alignment, feel, data point...whatever you call it, but more information generally should be better than not, right?  Still, through the course of a year, for tour players, 25 tournaments, and let's just say they make all the cuts, so 100 rounds...1800 holes, roughly 3000 putts. How many will miss by being "robbed" by the pin?  i.e. ball hits pin and deflects off and stays out of hole.  And of the ones that do that, how many can you say would definitively not gone in anyway if the pin was out?  Conversely, how many putts of the 3,000 were definitely not going in but the pin helped?

Are we talking an average on one putt per player per year?  That's what it feels like to me, but I don't have the data and really neither does anyone else.  And on top of that, how are the studies being done?  With the "perfect putter".  Well, guess what, not even Tiger Woods in his prime was the "perfect putter".  As consistent and great of a putter someone like Faxon or Crenshaw was, do you think they had the same holing speed on every putt?  Of course not.  The human factor makes this very hard to pinpoint.

The perfect putter is a metal ramp with anchors that should give very consistent performance roll after roll....

If youíre saying that no one can actually replicate the consistency of the perfect putter, I think that while true, itís besides the point.

What people are trying to capture here is: does having the pin in increase, decrease or no impact oneís odds of making a putt....

Edited by dhc1, 07 February 2019 - 07:46 AM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#32 dpb5031

dpb5031

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,840 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 67947
  • Joined: 10/21/2008
  • Location:Central NJ
GolfWRX Likes : 3148

Posted 07 February 2019 - 08:04 AM

This is interesting and supports my skepticism of the previous studies. Personally I've experienced the flag stick deflecting a birdie putt entering on the high side that every guy in my group agreed would have gone in had the stick not been there. I shared my experience and got lambasted in a previous thread for choosing small sample size anecdotal evidence over science...lol.  

As expected, now we have a study indicating the opposite of the previously touted "science." I still say choose the optics that look best to you and inspire confidence, whether in, or out. For me, it's out save for lag putts outside of 35 feet where I'll leave it in simply for convenience.

Edited by dpb5031, 07 February 2019 - 08:05 AM.

USGA Index: ~2

WITB:
2018 Taylormade M3 8.5 Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6x
Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
Ping G 22 Hybrid (2 flat) - Ping Tour 80 S
Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
Ping Glide 2.0 - SS 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
Taylormade Ho Toe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
Taylormade TP5X Ball

2

#33 Roody

Roody

    You ride her until she bucks you or don't ride at all

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,047 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 63452
  • Joined: 08/16/2008
  • Location:Rochester, NY
  • Handicap:8.4
GolfWRX Likes : 685

Posted 07 February 2019 - 08:19 AM

View Postlarrybud, on 06 February 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:


Most golf pros aren't physicists.

Bryson DeChambeau is. :-)

Though from what I've read it sounds as though he's advocating for the pin to be left in.
Titleist ProV1x
Titleist 915 D2
Titleist 716 T-MB 2-iron
Callaway Apex irons 3-PW
Odyssey Black Series #7
Callaway Jaws and Mack Daddy Wedges

3

#34 eric13

eric13

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 41 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 167807
  • Joined: 03/05/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 24

Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:06 AM

Since I golf alone and don’t keep a handicap , I’ve been leaving it in for years without issue.

Edited by eric13, 07 February 2019 - 04:56 PM.


4

#35 NoTalentLefty

NoTalentLefty

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,373 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 204451
  • Joined: 09/24/2012
  • Location:Midwest
GolfWRX Likes : 1495

Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:18 AM

There was a disclaimer at the end of the article: This was published to continue and further confuse the debate in the general populace. That is all.

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Titleist 913 D3 44 inches also a Cleveland Classic 310 43.5 inches
3 and 5 Wood Ping G15
3-5 Hybrids Cobra Baffler XL
6-GW Titleist AP1s
53 degree Wedge Titleist AP1
58 degree SW Vokey SM6
Putter White Hot V LINE Fang w/round Edel Grip

5

#36 lawsonman

lawsonman

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,832 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 171857
  • Joined: 03/29/2012
  • Location:Freeport, Illinois
  • Handicap:None
  • Ebay ID:pingguy1970
GolfWRX Likes : 4162

Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:22 AM

Everyone seems to be focusing on balls deflecting off the flag. Leaving the pin in is a visual aid for long putts which are so much easier for amateur's to get the ball closer to the hole. Thus, decreasing 3 putts. It's nothing new and it's not rocket science. If you don't think you will get the ball closer to the hole leaving the flag in for a 30 foot putt , you're wrong.
Welcome to where dumb opinions are better than no opinion. :)

Ping G400 9°
Ping Anser 17,20,23,27 Hybrid
Ping Iblade 6-PW
Ping Glide 54,58ES
Ping Piper Redwood
Ping DLX Bag

6

#37 CasualLie

CasualLie

    Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood?

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,250 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99500
  • Joined: 12/01/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 484

Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:31 AM

View Postlawsonman, on 07 February 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

Everyone seems to be focusing on balls deflecting off the flag. Leaving the pin in is a visual aid for long putts which are so much easier for amateur's to get the ball closer to the hole. Thus, decreasing 3 putts. It's nothing new and it's not rocket science. If you don't think you will get the ball closer to the hole leaving the flag in for a 30 foot putt , you're wrong.

There are "amateurs" who are so bad at putting, a Southwest Airlines grounds crew with lighted batons pointing at the hole won't prevent the 3-putt (or worse!).  Sorry, had to throw that out there, but yes agree, it helps on the long putts, how can it not?  The question is, can a 18+ handicap take advantage of that?

7

#38 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,610 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2365

Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:34 AM

View PostCasualLie, on 07 February 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

View Postlawsonman, on 07 February 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

Everyone seems to be focusing on balls deflecting off the flag. Leaving the pin in is a visual aid for long putts which are so much easier for amateur's to get the ball closer to the hole. Thus, decreasing 3 putts. It's nothing new and it's not rocket science. If you don't think you will get the ball closer to the hole leaving the flag in for a 30 foot putt , you're wrong.

There are "amateurs" who are so bad at putting, a Southwest Airlines grounds crew with lighted batons pointing at the hole won't prevent the 3-putt (or worse!).  Sorry, had to throw that out there, but yes agree, it helps on the long putts, how can it not?  The question is, can a 18+ handicap take advantage of that?
Of course!  Every time he accidentally hits one on the right line and bounces one off the flag, leaving a tap-in.  I estimate this might happen once every 10 to 20 rounds.

8

#39 Golfbeat

Golfbeat

    Swing Lessee

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,755 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 251408
  • Joined: 05/19/2013
  • Location:Florida
  • Handicap:3.9
GolfWRX Likes : 862

Posted 07 February 2019 - 04:26 PM

Virtually everybody now leaves the pin in at our club. We love it. Speeds up play and we believe still that there is an advantage, certainly no disadvantage. There are still some diehard "purists" who want to have it out but they will surely convert sooner than later.

9

#40 PaulCar65

PaulCar65

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 268 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 124619
  • Joined: 03/15/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 76

Posted 07 February 2019 - 05:54 PM

View PostRoody, on 07 February 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

View Postlarrybud, on 06 February 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:


Most golf pros aren't physicists.

Bryson DeChambeau is. :-)

Though from what I've read it sounds as though he's advocating for the pin to be left in.
A Bachelors in Physics doesnít make you a physicist.

If the pin is in I will putt with it in , if itís out Iíll leave it out. I do like it on long putts.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#41 Obee

Obee

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 3,492 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 72306
  • Joined: 01/09/2009
  • Location:Riverside, CA, USA
  • Handicap:+1
GolfWRX Likes : 5036

Posted 07 February 2019 - 08:02 PM

View Postdavep043, on 06 February 2019 - 11:10 AM, said:

I always like more data, but this isn't any more conclusive for ALL cases than the Pelz or MGS or LSW studies were.  My conclusion so far, based on everything I've read.
For putts going so fast that the would NOT go in, the flagstick can only help, by keeping the ball closer to the hole
For putts that are perfect speed, that would go in every time, the flagstick can only hurt.  That might only be going from 100% make to 98%, but that's still hurting.  On the other hand, the flagstick will help some people line up, so they'll make more putts with it in, even if they miss a couple directly because of the flagstick.
In between speeds, its going to depend on speed, type of flagstick, slope, location within the hole that the ball enters, lean of the stick, too many things to make a definite conclusion.
The tough part is deciding on those in-betweeners.  None of us have perfect speed control, none of us hit every putt on exactly the line we plan, and no green is so perfect that every putt will roll perfectly true.  None of us is good enough to say "I'm going to hit this at "2-feet past speed" and its going to hit 1/2" off-center to the high side, because that's optimum".  You have to play the percentages, and by reading all the published data you can educate yourself on what the percentages really are.

I find your well-reasoned, articulate, dispassionate takes offensive. Please stop them at once.
PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)

11

#42 PorscheFan

PorscheFan

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,053 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 483074
  • Joined: 09/28/2017
  • Location:Midwest
  • Handicap:12
GolfWRX Likes : 553

Posted 07 February 2019 - 08:45 PM

This thread explains exactly why I donít like this rule... They took something black and white and created swirl where there was none.

I preferred it when the pin had to be taken out, but Iíd be just fine with it being left in 100% of the time.  What I donít like is the swirl this half-way house creates.

To top it off TV announcers should have been given a maximum of 1 week from the beginning of January to ramble on about the new rule when every single player makes a putt.  From day 8 to day 14 it should have resulted in house arrest.  From day 15 on, jail time.

Edited by PorscheFan, 07 February 2019 - 08:46 PM.


12

#43 Llortamaisey

Llortamaisey

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,785 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 11574
  • Joined: 02/09/2006
GolfWRX Likes : 2489

Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:35 PM

Wait... so golfers are leaving the pin in because it helps? I thought everyone was leaving it in because it speeds up the round by at least 20 minutes.

13

#44 farmer

farmer

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,590 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70095
  • Joined: 12/02/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 3405

Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:28 PM

View PostLoki, on 06 February 2019 - 06:57 PM, said:

I think the 30" holing speed is a little long. I like Pelz's 17" better and wonder how those results fare?

Gotta use the right data in my book.
Exactly my thought.  I'm a die-it-in guy and 30" long would make me uncomfortable.

14

#45 baudi

baudi

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 654 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 27886
  • Joined: 04/15/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 224

Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:13 AM

It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.


15

#46 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,610 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2365

Posted 08 February 2019 - 08:18 AM

View PostPorscheFan, on 07 February 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

This thread explains exactly why I don't like this rule... They took something black and white and created swirl where there was none.

Its still absolutely black and white.  There is NO penalty for hitting an unattended flagstick, no matter where you're playing the shot from.  I don't see how it could be any clearer.

View Postbaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 02:13 AM, said:

It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  

View PostObee, on 07 February 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:


I find your well-reasoned, articulate, dispassionate takes offensive. Please stop them at once.

I'm sorry, I realize that make's me a misfit here.  But I got no place else to go. I GOT NO PLACE ELSE TO GO!!!!

16

#47 bladehunter

bladehunter

    Gillette can kiss my a**...Look for your razors to arrive back i

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,344 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291449
  • Joined: 01/12/2014
  • Location:south carolina
  • Handicap:NONE
GolfWRX Likes : 20775

Posted 08 February 2019 - 08:26 AM

View Postdavep043, on 08 February 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

View PostPorscheFan, on 07 February 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

This thread explains exactly why I don't like this rule... They took something black and white and created swirl where there was none.

Its still absolutely black and white.  There is NO penalty for hitting an unattended flagstick, no matter where you're playing the shot from.  I don't see how it could be any clearer.

View Postbaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 02:13 AM, said:

It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  

View PostObee, on 07 February 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:


I find your well-reasoned, articulate, dispassionate takes offensive. Please stop them at once.

I'm sorry, I realize that make's me a misfit here.  But I got no place else to go. I GOT NO PLACE ELSE TO GO!!!!

I see what he means by the swirl.  Itís because there is now a choice to make.  And people arenít smart enough to have choices in general speak.  It was absolutely black and white as far as play goes. Now itís not.  Itís a ď thingĒ.  Do you want it in or out ?  Then when you want it out youíve got some ( even said so here ) that are going to throw up their passive aggressive feathers and demand you pull and replace your own pin.  So courtesy is being trampled on as well.  Far from black and white anymore in practice.
Ping G400 Max 9.4* Aldila Synergy Black 70TX
TM 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X


Cameron GSS 009 1.5 beached tungsten sole weights

17

#48 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,610 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2365

Posted 08 February 2019 - 08:33 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 February 2019 - 08:26 AM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 08 February 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

View PostPorscheFan, on 07 February 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

This thread explains exactly why I don't like this rule... They took something black and white and created swirl where there was none.

Its still absolutely black and white.  There is NO penalty for hitting an unattended flagstick, no matter where you're playing the shot from.  I don't see how it could be any clearer.


I see what he means by the swirl.  It's because there is now a choice to make.  And people aren't smart enough to have choices in general speak.  It was absolutely black and white as far as play goes. Now it's not.  It's a " thing".  Do you want it in or out ?  Then when you want it out you've got some ( even said so here ) that are going to throw up their passive aggressive feathers and demand you pull and replace your own pin.  So courtesy is being trampled on as well.  Far from black and white anymore in practice.
Its funny, lots of people want to choose how high to drop from, they advocate anywhere from knee to shoulder high.  Yet other people HATE having to make a choice on the flagstick.  I've said it a few times, if you know what you're doing, and communicate reasonably well, handling the flagstick shouldn't be an issue.  And if it IS an issue, maybe its YOU (and your group), and not the rule that allows you to choose.  And blade, i don't mean you specifically, just the fella who doesn't like having choices.

18

#49 baudi

baudi

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 654 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 27886
  • Joined: 04/15/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 224

Posted 08 February 2019 - 08:43 AM

Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:
It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
davep043, on 08 February 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  


OffTopic
Very true but it is a side issue to this topic.
IMO the basic idea of this rule was only to speed up the game.
The new rule affects playing strategy and playing attitude/structure.
That could not be the main goal

A bit more On Topic: Question:
What is the verdict on the tough 4-5 footers on a slick green with a nasty break? eg. downhill.
With the old rule the player had to be very careful and judge speed and line. it requires a sensitive approach which will tingle in your bollocks if it is for eagle or a win on the final hole. It is the kind of tension i fear and I love.  Overaggression could/shall be punished.

With the new rule it feels like I could ignore the break and attack my ball like a cue ball aimed at a pocket. Hit the stick straight and the ball will drop.  If that is true I might gain a shot but will lose a feeling.




BTW Pelz's 17 inches is a rough average estimate.  The exact length is determined by green speed.

Edited by baudi, 08 February 2019 - 08:51 AM.


19

#50 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,353 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 923

Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:10 AM

Appreciate you posting the article.

I didn't need testing to know this tho. Pretty obvious from history of play that a breaking putt with speed would get kicked out by the flagstick. I will still continue to putt with the flag in for long putts because it helps with depth perception, thus, speed control.

I pull the pin for just about anything else.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#51 PorscheFan

PorscheFan

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,053 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 483074
  • Joined: 09/28/2017
  • Location:Midwest
  • Handicap:12
GolfWRX Likes : 553

Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:44 AM

View Postdavep043, on 08 February 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Its funny, lots of people want to choose how high to drop from, they advocate anywhere from knee to shoulder high.  Yet other people HATE having to make a choice on the flagstick.  I've said it a few times, if you know what you're doing, and communicate reasonably well, handling the flagstick shouldn't be an issue.  And if it IS an issue, maybe its YOU (and your group), and not the rule that allows you to choose.  And blade, i don't mean you specifically, just the fella who doesn't like having choices.

That's a little different, though.  The activity if dropping doesn't involve any other players in the group.

Also, somebody would just find a way to drop and leave it at that.

With the PGA coverage so far, individual players aren't even consistent from putt to putt about whether they're keeping the flag in or out... And they have caddies to help them through it.  They're trying to assess the potential impact on the result.

The biggest issue with flag in or out is that it was meant to speed up play, but in actuality you're giving people an extra decision to make that they believe (rightly or wrongly) could materially affect their ability to hole a shot.  Take the average dude that stands there in the fairway sweating over 8i or 9i is the right club... now you're taking that to the green and adding the same swirl to the flagstick.  It's become a performance discussion.

21

#52 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,610 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2365

Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:54 AM

View Postbaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 08:43 AM, said:

Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:
It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
davep043, on 08 February 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  


OffTopic
Very true but it is a side issue to this topic.
IMO the basic idea of this rule was only to speed up the game.
The new rule affects playing strategy and playing attitude/structure.
That could not be the main goal

A bit more On Topic: Question:
What is the verdict on the tough 4-5 footers on a slick green with a nasty break? eg. downhill.
With the old rule the player had to be very careful and judge speed and line. it requires a sensitive approach which will tingle in your bollocks if it is for eagle or a win on the final hole. It is the kind of tension i fear and I love.  Overaggression could/shall be punished.

With the new rule it feels like I could ignore the break and attack my ball like a cue ball aimed at a pocket. Hit the stick straight and the ball will drop.  If that is true I might gain a shot but will lose a feeling.

This is certainly one potential approach, hit everything firm.  But even at 4 to 5 feet, if there's a significant break there's no way to make it truly straight by hitting it harder.  Assuming you want to keep a miss on the green, there's no way.  I think you'd find that you'd still miss a significant percentage of these.  Strokes gained stats for professions show 20% are missed at 5 feet, I imagine that for breaking putts that percentage is higher.  With the speed you describe, a lot of these misses will turn into 3-putts.  I think most people will find that they're best off by using their normal speed.  We're just not that precise, and the green surfaces aren't that perfect that anyone can be certain of hitting the center of the flagstick.

View PostPorscheFan, on 08 February 2019 - 09:44 AM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 08 February 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Its funny, lots of people want to choose how high to drop from, they advocate anywhere from knee to shoulder high.  Yet other people HATE having to make a choice on the flagstick.  I've said it a few times, if you know what you're doing, and communicate reasonably well, handling the flagstick shouldn't be an issue.  And if it IS an issue, maybe its YOU (and your group), and not the rule that allows you to choose.  And blade, i don't mean you specifically, just the fella who doesn't like having choices.

The biggest issue with flag in or out is that it was meant to speed up play, but in actuality you're giving people an extra decision to make that they believe (rightly or wrongly) could materially affect their ability to hole a shot.  Take the average dude that stands there in the fairway sweating over 8i or 9i is the right club... now you're taking that to the green and adding the same swirl to the flagstick.  It's become a performance discussion.
I think this is fair.  I've never thought that this is likely to speed play substantially, but there's no reason it HAS to slow down play.  However, given the chance to do something poorly, at least a few people will do just that.  I believe there's likely to be a shake-out time, after which most players will come to a decision fairly quickly.  In the short term, there will be some indecision by some players, but I don't think that will last for very long.  Just my guess, I have no data to support that.

22

#53 farmer

farmer

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,590 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70095
  • Joined: 12/02/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 3405

Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:16 PM

I don't know why this rule was changed, don't know why the drop rule was adjusted, do not understand why the search time was cut in half, but it's just a flagstick.  It's a simple, easy decision.  I suspect, at the club level, it will simplify play when a group may have the nearest ball 25 feet away.  Having the stick in helps me, because I'm old and my depth perception is not what it used to be.  Whether it helps or does not, it's not a seismic shift in the world of golf.

23

#54 baudi

baudi

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 654 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 27886
  • Joined: 04/15/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 224

Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:44 PM

Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:


Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:
It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
davep043, on 08 February 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  

OffTopic
Very true but it is a side issue to this topic.
IMO the basic idea of this rule was only to speed up the game.
The new rule affects playing strategy and playing attitude/structure.
That could not be the main goal

A bit more On Topic: Question:
What is the verdict on the tough 4-5 footers on a slick green with a nasty break? eg. downhill.
With the old rule the player had to be very careful and judge speed and line. it requires a sensitive approach which will tingle in your bollocks if it is for eagle or a win on the final hole. It is the kind of tension i fear and I love.  Overaggression could/shall be punished.

With the new rule it feels like I could ignore the break and attack my ball like a cue ball aimed at a pocket. Hit the stick straight and the ball will drop.  If that is true I might gain a shot but will lose a feeling.


This is certainly one potential approach, hit everything firm.  But even at 4 to 5 feet, if there's a significant break there's no way to make it truly straight by hitting it harder.  Assuming you want to keep a miss on the green, there's no way.  I think you'd find that you'd still miss a significant percentage of these.  Strokes gained stats for professions show 20% are missed at 5 feet, I imagine that for breaking putts that percentage is higher.  With the speed you describe, a lot of these misses will turn into 3-putts.  I think most people will find that they're best off by using their normal speed.  We're just not that precise, and the green surfaces aren't that perfect that anyone can be certain of hitting the center of the flagstick


Interesting to read you have drawn a conclusion whereas I have to find mine yet.
Playing through the break is not new. The speed and the style will be.  A 3 ft putt dying at the hole vs a 3ft putt (with the energy for 6ft )straight in. It is more complex.The choice is agony.

Professionals seldom face bad maintained greens. Still the memory of DJ's 3 putt on the last hole USOpen 2015 is fresh; the second putt is quite crucial. I face this situation 8 months per year. With wet spring and summers 10 months.  
Also I regularly play a par 3 course. The greens are small have weird spots. Like dents and bumps. Quite different from greens on a standard. course. How about worn cupholders and a hanging flag over the lip away from the putt line ?
Finally what is the effect of grain? (not applicable to me )

ps
How about Scott Hoch's 2ft missed putt to win the Masters?

Edited by baudi, 08 February 2019 - 12:51 PM.


24

#55 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,610 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2365

Posted 08 February 2019 - 01:24 PM

View Postbaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 12:44 PM, said:

Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:


Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:
It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
davep043, on 08 February 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  

OffTopic
Very true but it is a side issue to this topic.
IMO the basic idea of this rule was only to speed up the game.
The new rule affects playing strategy and playing attitude/structure.
That could not be the main goal

A bit more On Topic: Question:
What is the verdict on the tough 4-5 footers on a slick green with a nasty break? eg. downhill.
With the old rule the player had to be very careful and judge speed and line. it requires a sensitive approach which will tingle in your bollocks if it is for eagle or a win on the final hole. It is the kind of tension i fear and I love.  Overaggression could/shall be punished.

With the new rule it feels like I could ignore the break and attack my ball like a cue ball aimed at a pocket. Hit the stick straight and the ball will drop.  If that is true I might gain a shot but will lose a feeling.


This is certainly one potential approach, hit everything firm.  But even at 4 to 5 feet, if there's a significant break there's no way to make it truly straight by hitting it harder.  Assuming you want to keep a miss on the green, there's no way.  I think you'd find that you'd still miss a significant percentage of these.  Strokes gained stats for professions show 20% are missed at 5 feet, I imagine that for breaking putts that percentage is higher.  With the speed you describe, a lot of these misses will turn into 3-putts.  I think most people will find that they're best off by using their normal speed.  We're just not that precise, and the green surfaces aren't that perfect that anyone can be certain of hitting the center of the flagstick


Interesting to read you have drawn a conclusion whereas I have to find mine yet.
Playing through the break is not new. The speed and the style will be.  A 3 ft putt dying at the hole vs a 3ft putt (with the energy for 6ft )straight in. It is more complex.The choice is agony.

Professionals seldom face bad maintained greens. Still the memory of DJ's 3 putt on the last hole USOpen 2015 is fresh; the second putt is quite crucial. I face this situation 8 months per year. With wet spring and summers 10 months.  
Also I regularly play a par 3 course. The greens are small have weird spots. Like dents and bumps. Quite different from greens on a standard. course. How about worn cupholders and a hanging flag over the lip away from the putt line ?
Finally what is the effect of grain? (not applicable to me )

ps
How about Scott Hoch's 2ft missed putt to win the Masters?
I don't think I've come to a conclusion, or at least not one that I won't continually evaluate as I gain experience, and read new information that will almost certainly continue to become available.  
As for the difference between the greens we see, as opposed to the PGA Tour quality greens that the strokes gained stats are based on, I agree, we're much more likely to get a funny bounce.  That mean, to me at least, that our control of where the ball enters the hole will be worse than the pro stats.  We'll miss the hole more often, so attempts to jam it in to eliminate break will leave a increased percentage of miss-able comeback putts.  I'm comfortable with the logic behind my expectations, but who knows, I might be proven wrong.  And the permutations are endless, grain, imperfect conditions, wind-blown flags,  different flagsticks, uphill, sidehill, there's no single answer.

Edited by davep043, 08 February 2019 - 01:24 PM.


25

#56 farmer

farmer

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,590 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70095
  • Joined: 12/02/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 3405

Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:39 PM

DJ and Scott Hoch either misread those putts, misaligned, or dead pulled them.. The flagstick would have made no difference on either putt.  As Dave posted, if you're hitting a putt with the speed and intention of the stick knocking it in, your nickname will be "three jack".

26

#57 baudi

baudi

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 654 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 27886
  • Joined: 04/15/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 224

Posted 08 February 2019 - 04:50 PM

View Postdavep043, on 08 February 2019 - 01:24 PM, said:

View Postbaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 12:44 PM, said:

Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:


Quote

Posted Imagebaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:
It is a stupid rule. The rule makers should reverse it right now.
davep043, on 08 February 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:
Its fine to have an opinion, but if you're going to change anyone's mind, you need to explain WHY you think its stupid.  

OffTopic
Very true but it is a side issue to this topic.
IMO the basic idea of this rule was only to speed up the game.
The new rule affects playing strategy and playing attitude/structure.
That could not be the main goal

A bit more On Topic: Question:
What is the verdict on the tough 4-5 footers on a slick green with a nasty break? eg. downhill.
With the old rule the player had to be very careful and judge speed and line. it requires a sensitive approach which will tingle in your bollocks if it is for eagle or a win on the final hole. It is the kind of tension i fear and I love.  Overaggression could/shall be punished.

With the new rule it feels like I could ignore the break and attack my ball like a cue ball aimed at a pocket. Hit the stick straight and the ball will drop.  If that is true I might gain a shot but will lose a feeling.


This is certainly one potential approach, hit everything firm.  But even at 4 to 5 feet, if there's a significant break there's no way to make it truly straight by hitting it harder.  Assuming you want to keep a miss on the green, there's no way.  I think you'd find that you'd still miss a significant percentage of these.  Strokes gained stats for professions show 20% are missed at 5 feet, I imagine that for breaking putts that percentage is higher.  With the speed you describe, a lot of these misses will turn into 3-putts.  I think most people will find that they're best off by using their normal speed.  We're just not that precise, and the green surfaces aren't that perfect that anyone can be certain of hitting the center of the flagstick


Interesting to read you have drawn a conclusion whereas I have to find mine yet.
Playing through the break is not new. The speed and the style will be.  A 3 ft putt dying at the hole vs a 3ft putt (with the energy for 6ft )straight in. It is more complex.The choice is agony.

Professionals seldom face bad maintained greens. Still the memory of DJ's 3 putt on the last hole USOpen 2015 is fresh; the second putt is quite crucial. I face this situation 8 months per year. With wet spring and summers 10 months.  
Also I regularly play a par 3 course. The greens are small have weird spots. Like dents and bumps. Quite different from greens on a standard. course. How about worn cupholders and a hanging flag over the lip away from the putt line ?
Finally what is the effect of grain? (not applicable to me )

ps
How about Scott Hoch's 2ft missed putt to win the Masters?
I don't think I've come to a conclusion, or at least not one that I won't continually evaluate as I gain experience, and read new information that will almost certainly continue to become available.  
As for the difference between the greens we see, as opposed to the PGA Tour quality greens that the strokes gained stats are based on, I agree, we're much more likely to get a funny bounce.  That mean, to me at least, that our control of where the ball enters the hole will be worse than the pro stats.  We'll miss the hole more often, so attempts to jam it in to eliminate break will leave a increased percentage of miss-able comeback putts.  I'm comfortable with the logic behind my expectations, but who knows, I might be proven wrong.  And the permutations are endless, grain, imperfect conditions, wind-blown flags,  different flagsticks, uphill, sidehill, there's no single answer.

My apologies I may have been a bit too direct in expressing myself.
I think we agree to the phenomena that finding out which method or technique works best, is the real situation at hand (which is one of the great virtues in this game). So in stead thinking 'stupid rule' the mantra 'out of clutter find simplicity; from discord find harmony; in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity' should offer a better start.

27

#58 soregongolfer

soregongolfer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,215 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 97841
  • Joined: 11/03/2009
  • Location:Roseburg, OR
GolfWRX Likes : 829

Posted 08 February 2019 - 05:11 PM

Edoardo Molinari's test results.

https://www.golfdige...ay-surprise-you

28

#59 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,610 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2365

Posted 08 February 2019 - 06:31 PM

View Postbaudi, on 08 February 2019 - 04:50 PM, said:


My apologies I may have been a bit too direct in expressing myself.
I think we agree to the phenomena that finding out which method or technique works best, is the real situation at hand (which is one of the great virtues in this game). So in stead thinking 'stupid rule' the mantra 'out of clutter find simplicity; from discord find harmony; in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity' should offer a better start.
No apologies necessary.  I asked you to explain the basis for your opinion, and you did so very well, without trying to insult me or anyone else.  We're all trying to muddle our way through a lifetime of golf, and changes to rules give us more things to think about.  Reading and trying to understand differing viewpoints is a great way to work through my decisions.

29

#60 CaddiesFault

CaddiesFault

    Golf Professional

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 623 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 152241
  • Joined: 12/26/2011
  • Location:IL
  • Handicap:-
GolfWRX Likes : 145

Posted 08 February 2019 - 07:24 PM

I love the rule change. I dont know which way gives a ball more chance to go in, but i do know that its nice to be able to leave it in on a 50 footer rather than walk over there or wait for someone else to remove/tend it.

Until obvious proof is shown either way i will pull it on short/medium putts where i should have no problem controlling pace(about 30 feet), and do whatever i feel from 30+.

Edited by CaddiesFault, 08 February 2019 - 07:27 PM.

Callaway

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors