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X-Factor Swing bad for your Back


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#1 andrue

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 05:28 AM

Well..according to the BBC anyway.

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#2 PorscheFan

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 07:56 AM

View Postandrue, on 05 February 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Well..according to the BBC anyway.

That’s an impressive piece of non-research.  If that’s what it takes to conduct medical research these days, then even I could do it.

“It's still a theory but we are starting to see the late stages of this in some of our patients”

So, it’s an article about a theory...  And the theory seems to be swinging harder and faster may put more pressure on your spine.

I’ve no doubt that’s true of anything.  I came to the same conclusion with precisely the same level of ‘research’

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#3 gatorMD

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 08:47 AM

https://thejns.org/s...SPINE181113.xml

article
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#4 BrianMcG

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:03 AM

I would say it's more like beating 1000 balls a day and playing 136 holes of golf a week.

Excessive amounts of anything may lead to improved performance, but is just not good for you physically. Just look at all the endurance athletes that die of heart issues in their 50-60s.
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#5 PorscheFan

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:14 AM

View PostgatorMD, on 05 February 2019 - 08:47 AM, said:


Thanks for the link.  It really is just an article and a hypothesis based on the authors looking at other (somewhat inconclusive) studies, which the BBC has then rehashed in a specific ‘x-factor’ spin.

I personally believe a lot os the assertions, but they’re really just that... assertions at this point, with nothing really out there to elevate our understanding:

Certainly, initial management in players with back pain would include aggressive core and flexibility training with conservative therapies in the absence of disc herniation causing neurological deficits. It has been suggested that aggressive golf-specific training and rehabilitation can im- prove back pain in some patients.9 Limited flexibility of the hips and spine has been correlated to low-back pain in golfers as well and, therefore, should be the focus of any therapeutic regimen. It seems possible that Woods’ other orthopedic injuries (affecting his knee and Achilles ten- don), which preceded his back issues, may have contrib- uted to alterations in swing biomechanics that augmented the strain on his back. The participation of physical thera- pists and spine interventionalists with an advanced un- derstanding of this special disease pathology may prove advantageous for treating patients and helping them return to play.’

There’s a lot of common sense, but also a lot of hypothesizing in that paragraph.  I’d love to see more research.

My guess is in 5 years they’ll coalesce around a swing with a little more emphasis on hip rotational speed (and the requisite hip mobility to save the knees), with spinal rotation reduced slightly for each individual where you’re a few degrees away from hitting the ‘bump stops’ on either side of the rotation.  That’s where I’m trying to get to for myself.  It’ll simply require a lot of core to brace.

Edited by PorscheFan, 05 February 2019 - 09:19 AM.


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#6 ferrispgm

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:10 AM

The X factor absolutely is bad for your lower back in 99% of people.  The spine and the muscles around the spine that support rotation are not designed for that much torque.  Eventually something has got to give.  Jason Day is a perfect example of this.....Focused on maximizing x factor for a while....started having back problems. There is a difference between stretch shorten cycles and forcibly resisting....X factor falls into the forcibly resisting category.  If you are naturally flexible and can turn your shoulders 90+ degrees and not turn your hips much naturally, good for you, but you are in the overwhelming minority.
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#7 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:33 AM

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

The X factor absolutely is bad for your lower back in 99% of people.  The spine and the muscles around the spine that support rotation are not designed for that much torque.  Eventually something has got to give.  Jason Day is a perfect example of this.....Focused on maximizing x factor for a while....started having back problems. There is a difference between stretch shorten cycles and forcibly resisting....X factor falls into the forcibly resisting category.  If you are naturally flexible and can turn your shoulders 90+ degrees and not turn your hips much naturally, good for you, but you are in the overwhelming minority.

You really have no idea about jason and his back. Just saying, don't use jason as an example.

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#8 ferrispgm

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:52 AM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 10:33 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

The X factor absolutely is bad for your lower back in 99% of people.  The spine and the muscles around the spine that support rotation are not designed for that much torque.  Eventually something has got to give.  Jason Day is a perfect example of this.....Focused on maximizing x factor for a while....started having back problems. There is a difference between stretch shorten cycles and forcibly resisting....X factor falls into the forcibly resisting category.  If you are naturally flexible and can turn your shoulders 90+ degrees and not turn your hips much naturally, good for you, but you are in the overwhelming minority.

You really have no idea about jason and his back. Just saying, don't use jason as an example.

Uh huh............. :fool:
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#9 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:56 AM

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 10:52 AM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 10:33 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

The X factor absolutely is bad for your lower back in 99% of people.  The spine and the muscles around the spine that support rotation are not designed for that much torque.  Eventually something has got to give.  Jason Day is a perfect example of this.....Focused on maximizing x factor for a while....started having back problems. There is a difference between stretch shorten cycles and forcibly resisting....X factor falls into the forcibly resisting category.  If you are naturally flexible and can turn your shoulders 90+ degrees and not turn your hips much naturally, good for you, but you are in the overwhelming minority.

You really have no idea about jason and his back. Just saying, don't use jason as an example.

Uh huh............. :fool:

You might listen on this one. You never know what people know. Jason is a very poor example here.

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#10 ksgolfcoach

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:00 AM

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

The X factor absolutely is bad for your lower back in 99% of people.  The spine and the muscles around the spine that support rotation are not designed for that much torque.  Eventually something has got to give.  Jason Day is a perfect example of this.....Focused on maximizing x factor for a while....started having back problems. There is a difference between stretch shorten cycles and forcibly resisting....X factor falls into the forcibly resisting category.  If you are naturally flexible and can turn your shoulders 90+ degrees and not turn your hips much naturally, good for you, but you are in the overwhelming minority.

Fascinating topic. When did Jason and his coach start focusing on X factor and how soon after that did he get injured?


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#11 ferrispgm

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:08 AM

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#12 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:


Anything written in a golf magazine has to be taken with a grain of salt. Colin gives the writer a couple points they work on and the writer fills it in. The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs. From there I'm almost positive the magazine filled in the gaps about resistance leading to distance yadda yadda yadda. I have first hand info on this one in regards to jason's golf swing

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#13 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:21 AM

Common sense dictates it’s bad for your back.

As has every expert I have asked.

The irony is creating separation is supposed to be a transition move and forcing it in the backswing often ruins it in the sequencing.

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#14 ferrispgm

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:48 AM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:


Anything written in a golf magazine has to be taken with a grain of salt. Colin gives the writer a couple points they work on and the writer fills it in. The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs. From there I'm almost positive the magazine filled in the gaps about resistance leading to distance yadda yadda yadda. I have first hand info on this one in regards to jason's golf swing

I guess a grain of salt is more credible than comments from certain people.....................

FYI....He has stated in interviews/live instruction/clinics that he tries to restrict hip turn.

Edited by ferrispgm, 05 February 2019 - 11:48 AM.

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#15 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 12:00 PM

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:


Anything written in a golf magazine has to be taken with a grain of salt. Colin gives the writer a couple points they work on and the writer fills it in. The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs. From there I'm almost positive the magazine filled in the gaps about resistance leading to distance yadda yadda yadda. I have first hand info on this one in regards to jason's golf swing

I guess a grain of salt is more credible than comments from certain people.....................

FYI....He has stated in interviews/live instruction/clinics that he tries to restrict hip turn.

Insult all you want...I know what I'm talking about. Not a good example. I'm not even advocating for restricted hip turn. Just saying jason isn't a great example of why it's bad or representative of why it might cause injuries.


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#16 scopek

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 01:31 PM

This is an important topic so I'm glad this article was posted. I've also thought that this type of a swing when taught to me would cause strain on my back so I've generally avoided it. People have talked about rotational swings causing back injury, but it seems that if the hips and spine rotate together I have zero back issues. I read somewhere that part of why Kuchar started working with Jim Hardy is that he used to have a swing something like x-factor and that he was starting to have back issues in his early career. He changed to a rotational type pivot swing and hasn't had an issues sense.

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#17 mudge

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 01:52 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:


Anything written in a golf magazine has to be taken with a grain of salt. Colin gives the writer a couple points they work on and the writer fills it in. The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs. From there I'm almost positive the magazine filled in the gaps about resistance leading to distance yadda yadda yadda. I have first hand info on this one in regards to jason's golf swing

How can Jason Day be a *bad* example of restricting hip turn can lead to back problems? He is a poster child of "restrict hip turn for more power".

This article makes it even more obvious:

https://www.golfaust...ason-day-430879

Quote


For amateur golfers, in terms of their golf fitness, I think it should be more about flexibility and stability.

Why? Well you’ve got to be able to turn behind the ball and keep your hips pretty still. When amateurs ‘turn’ they’re swaying side to side. Everything – hips and shoulders – go as one. When I’m taking it back there’s a little bit of hip turn but there’s about 90 degrees of shoulder rotation


As far as I can tell, those words are straight from the horse's mouth. I have no clue why someone would object to JD being a good, if not great, example of how X-factor can contribute to back problems.

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#18 MPStrat

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 01:55 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs.

Michael, is it possible to maintain the stability of the legs and not restrict the movement of the pelvis to some degree?

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#19 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 03:21 PM

View Postmudge, on 05 February 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 05 February 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:


Anything written in a golf magazine has to be taken with a grain of salt. Colin gives the writer a couple points they work on and the writer fills it in. The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs. From there I'm almost positive the magazine filled in the gaps about resistance leading to distance yadda yadda yadda. I have first hand info on this one in regards to jason's golf swing

How can Jason Day be a *bad* example of restricting hip turn can lead to back problems? He is a poster child of "restrict hip turn for more power".

This article makes it even more obvious:

https://www.golfaust...ason-day-430879

Quote


For amateur golfers, in terms of their golf fitness, I think it should be more about flexibility and stability.

Why? Well you’ve got to be able to turn behind the ball and keep your hips pretty still. When amateurs ‘turn’ they’re swaying side to side. Everything – hips and shoulders – go as one. When I’m taking it back there’s a little bit of hip turn but there’s about 90 degrees of shoulder rotation


As far as I can tell, those words are straight from the horse's mouth. I have no clue why someone would object to JD being a good, if not great, example of how X-factor can contribute to back problems.

I can say it because I am not going off of any publication. I am going on first hand knowledge of the situation.

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#20 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 03:22 PM

View PostMPStrat, on 05 February 2019 - 01:55 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 05 February 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

The numbers are correct and I bet for sure they were working on maintaining the stability in his legs.

Michael, is it possible to maintain the stability of the legs and not restrict the movement of the pelvis to some degree?
maintaining the stability of the legs will lessen the rotation of the pelvis. That said, there is a difference in that and restricting the turning of the hips.


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#21 Temple90

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 03:36 PM

When you start overly involving the lower back in the swing you are asking for trouble. The spine isnt designed to torque in rotation. Eventually something will happen. Rotating with the hips and thoracic spine seems like a much better idea especially for longevity of your back.

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#22 ferrispgm

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 04:01 PM

Exactly......name one sport/athletic activity where restricting your body's natural movement improves performance?  Stabilization is in a different category btw.  As Monte says....it's really common sense when you think about it.  The problem is when a popular teacher/figure says something else, people blindly follow.
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#23 Nosebuckle

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 04:01 PM

Fort Worth Pro said:

I can say it because I am not going off of any publication. I am going on first hand knowledge of the situation.

Without assuming anything, are you at liberty to explain/clarify a bit more? Or perhaps another player would be a better example to illustrate this?

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#24 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 04:13 PM

View PostNosebuckle, on 05 February 2019 - 04:01 PM, said:

Fort Worth Pro said:

I can say it because I am not going off of any publication. I am going on first hand knowledge of the situation.

Without assuming anything, are you at liberty to explain/clarify a bit more? Or perhaps another player would be a better example to illustrate this?

I worked/taught with a member of jason's team. There is more to it and there are reasons for it. It also has not caused him any back issues.

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#25 dap

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 05:49 PM

That article also suggests the downswing can also put strain on the lower back. Day has a pretty extreme reverse C follow through and this causes lateral flexion in the lower spine. In contrast, Dustin Johnson has very little reverse C and I don't think he has any back problems despite him being a longer hitter than Day.


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#26 llewol007

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 06:02 PM

The Chiropractor I went to when I had lower back pain said the golf swing is bad for your back and that it is not a natural motion for your back to repeat over and over.
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#27 Sparklehorse

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:21 PM

I've a bad back and I think its because I have to hold the club with both hands. If I swing with just one arm alone , the swing feels less strain but I'd probably whiff the ball. Just have to accept the fact it's a sport that really requires  both arms and therefore by its nature cannot be back friendly.

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#28 PorscheFan

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:52 PM

View PostSparklehorse, on 05 February 2019 - 09:21 PM, said:

I've a bad back and I think its because I have to hold the club with both hands. If I swing with just one arm alone , the swing feels less strain but I'd probably whiff the ball. Just have to accept the fact it's a sport that really requires  both arms and therefore by its nature cannot be back friendly.

Ah, vivadixiesubmarinetransmissionplot.  There’s a blast from the past!

Yep, it’s about finding the least-worst way to swing the club for your own body.  I’m not quite there yet...

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#29 pinhigh27

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:04 PM

View Postllewol007, on 05 February 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

The Chiropractor I went to when I had lower back pain said the golf swing is bad for your back and that it is not a natural motion for your back to repeat over and over.

neither is having your back "cracked" or whatever quack stuff they do

View Postdap, on 05 February 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

That article also suggests the downswing can also put strain on the lower back. Day has a pretty extreme reverse C follow through and this causes lateral flexion in the lower spine. In contrast, Dustin Johnson has very little reverse C and I don't think he has any back problems despite him being a longer hitter than Day.

so the only thing that could possibly influence the presence of back pain is there golf swings? nothing about their anatomy, prior injuries, etc etc

not every thing in someones life is explained by their golf swing
How to be in better shape for golf?
Become a better athlete.
Don't worry about golf specific.
Compound lifts w/ linear progress
Don't forget the mobility work.
More results, more functional

Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700

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#30 Oldboy

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:10 PM

The lumbar spine and thoracic spine are meant to work in different ways. Flexion vs rotation. But at the end of the day it’s banging 1000s of balls and playing 100s of round that is gonna hurt


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