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The most important thing that determines score


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#61 leezer99

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 09:50 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

The 218 number is carry.  LPGA average is around 247 yards total.  There are less than 10 girls out there who consistently fly the ball 250 yards.  

Distance is important up to a point but there is a point of diminishing returns.  The ability to hit a lot of greens is huge.  Mechanics play a part but so does a players decision making and awareness level.  My top juniors average 75% GIR or more.  It not only makes scoring low possible/probable it also massively decreases the possibility of shooting high scores
Emily Tubert needs to get her card back. She's one of the longest women out there.


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#62 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 10:17 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

The 218 number is carry.  LPGA average is around 247 yards total.  There are less than 10 girls out there who consistently fly the ball 250 yards.  

Distance is important up to a point but there is a point of diminishing returns.  The ability to hit a lot of greens is huge.  Mechanics play a part but so does a players decision making and awareness level.  My top juniors average 75% GIR or more.  It not only makes scoring low possible/probable it also massively decreases the possibility of shooting high scores

I’d be interested to know your “top juniors” average driving distance compared to the rest of your juniors. When you hit it further it’s easier to hit the green—out of fairway or rough. You’re right there is a point of diminishing returns on driving distance but that generally happens above the 90th percentile.

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#63 iteachgolf

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 10:36 PM

View PostPinewood Golfer, on 28 January 2019 - 10:17 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

The 218 number is carry.  LPGA average is around 247 yards total.  There are less than 10 girls out there who consistently fly the ball 250 yards.  

Distance is important up to a point but there is a point of diminishing returns.  The ability to hit a lot of greens is huge.  Mechanics play a part but so does a players decision making and awareness level.  My top juniors average 75% GIR or more.  It not only makes scoring low possible/probable it also massively decreases the possibility of shooting high scores

I’d be interested to know your “top juniors” average driving distance compared to the rest of your juniors. When you hit it further it’s easier to hit the green—out of fairway or rough. You’re right there is a point of diminishing returns on driving distance but that generally happens above the 90th percentile.

On average they are on the “shorter” side.  I have a few juniors who swing 125-130mph, and they will play college golf but they aren’t at the top.  Top 2018 grad (top 20 in class and top 60 overall in the world) swings 108 mph.  My top 2019  (top 20 D1 commit and played in US Jr) swings 105 mph.  Top 2020 swings 106 mph (top 20 in class). Top 2021 swings 104 mph and is top 20 in FL for his class. Top 2022 is the exception as he already swings 110 mph. Top 2023 swings it 96mph.  Fastest of the top player I teach that are 19 and under is 116mph, and he did win the 2018 Western Junior over two of the players listed above.  

Top girl from 2018 swings 90-92mph (top 25 in class and top 70 in the world) and just won her first college event as a freshman today to go along with a 2nd place finish in the fall.  Top 2019 girl swings 93 mph and won her state championship handily and going to school on a full ride.

Edited by iteachgolf, 28 January 2019 - 10:36 PM.


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#64 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 11:16 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

View PostPinewood Golfer, on 28 January 2019 - 10:17 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

The 218 number is carry.  LPGA average is around 247 yards total.  There are less than 10 girls out there who consistently fly the ball 250 yards.  

Distance is important up to a point but there is a point of diminishing returns.  The ability to hit a lot of greens is huge.  Mechanics play a part but so does a players decision making and awareness level.  My top juniors average 75% GIR or more.  It not only makes scoring low possible/probable it also massively decreases the possibility of shooting high scores

I’d be interested to know your “top juniors” average driving distance compared to the rest of your juniors. When you hit it further it’s easier to hit the green—out of fairway or rough. You’re right there is a point of diminishing returns on driving distance but that generally happens above the 90th percentile.

On average they are on the “shorter” side.  I have a few juniors who swing 125-130mph, and they will play college golf but they aren’t at the top.  Top 2018 grad (top 20 in class and top 60 overall in the world) swings 108 mph.  My top 2019  (top 20 D1 commit and played in US Jr) swings 105 mph.  Top 2020 swings 106 mph (top 20 in class). Top 2021 swings 104 mph and is top 20 in FL for his class. Top 2022 is the exception as he already swings 110 mph. Top 2023 swings it 96mph.  Fastest of the top player I teach that are 19 and under is 116mph, and he did win the 2018 Western Junior over two of the players listed above.  

Top girl from 2018 swings 90-92mph (top 25 in class and top 70 in the world) and just won her first college event as a freshman today to go along with a 2nd place finish in the fall.  Top 2019 girl swings 93 mph and won her state championship handily and going to school on a full ride.

Good stuff. I have a young kid (10) so I’m genuinely interested in all this. I’d love to see numbers from some of these academies that teach a few dozen kids.

All those numbers you gave are very good but obviously not crazy. And all the comps are relative. I’d guess if you look at the top 30 of any class then there’s a distance correlation to the top 5-10. I don’t know this, but I’d be shocked to find it not true. Distance just correlates to so many other measurables.

And remember, correlation does not equal definition. There are always exceptions to any rule

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#65 iteachgolf

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM

View PostPinewood Golfer, on 28 January 2019 - 11:16 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

View PostPinewood Golfer, on 28 January 2019 - 10:17 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

The 218 number is carry.  LPGA average is around 247 yards total.  There are less than 10 girls out there who consistently fly the ball 250 yards.  

Distance is important up to a point but there is a point of diminishing returns.  The ability to hit a lot of greens is huge.  Mechanics play a part but so does a players decision making and awareness level.  My top juniors average 75% GIR or more.  It not only makes scoring low possible/probable it also massively decreases the possibility of shooting high scores

I’d be interested to know your “top juniors” average driving distance compared to the rest of your juniors. When you hit it further it’s easier to hit the green—out of fairway or rough. You’re right there is a point of diminishing returns on driving distance but that generally happens above the 90th percentile.

On average they are on the “shorter” side.  I have a few juniors who swing 125-130mph, and they will play college golf but they aren’t at the top.  Top 2018 grad (top 20 in class and top 60 overall in the world) swings 108 mph.  My top 2019  (top 20 D1 commit and played in US Jr) swings 105 mph.  Top 2020 swings 106 mph (top 20 in class). Top 2021 swings 104 mph and is top 20 in FL for his class. Top 2022 is the exception as he already swings 110 mph. Top 2023 swings it 96mph.  Fastest of the top player I teach that are 19 and under is 116mph, and he did win the 2018 Western Junior over two of the players listed above.  

Top girl from 2018 swings 90-92mph (top 25 in class and top 70 in the world) and just won her first college event as a freshman today to go along with a 2nd place finish in the fall.  Top 2019 girl swings 93 mph and won her state championship handily and going to school on a full ride.

Good stuff. I have a young kid (10) so I’m genuinely interested in all this. I’d love to see numbers from some of these academies that teach a few dozen kids.

All those numbers you gave are very good but obviously not crazy. And all the comps are relative. I’d guess if you look at the top 30 of any class then there’s a distance correlation to the top 5-10. I don’t know this, but I’d be shocked to find it not true. Distance just correlates to so many other measurables.

And remember, correlation does not equal definition. There are always exceptions to any rule

I’ve seen lots of kids get longer in college.  Many kids at 18 are still growing and have never been in a true consistent workout program that really pushes them.  

I’ve also seen plenty get longer later.  I have a pro I teach who had a good college and am career swinging at 100-104 mph (went 2-1 in the Walker cup and played well in the Palmer Cup) who had some early success after turning pro but struggled to keep status. We starting working together a few months ago and he’s now up to 115mph max and smooth swing at 110-112mph.  It can be done, but obviously an advantage to have the speed younger.

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer “bad” shots. They generally don’t hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won’t swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.

I’ve had success with kids who were very long who learn how to hit more greens and get more refined as they get older.  And I’ve had success with kids who had very mature games and knew how to really play golf and learned how to hit it further later.  Personality plays a huge part in what a player will prioritize during their early development.

Edited by iteachgolf, 28 January 2019 - 11:42 PM.


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#66 tiger1873

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:


What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.



With girls 10-13 age group I see a ton this  . The kids are very conservative because it helps them get lower scores and generally the kid who plays it safe wins. There are very very few girls who really go at it.  The ones that do are much longer than everyone else.  

I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.  I also seen when a kid is going through a growth spurt they have a hard time with distance control in chipping.   Both of those things can really rack up extra strokes.

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#67 heavy_hitter

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 09:34 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.





I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.

I am curious to this because it doesn't make much sense to me.  If the kid is long then in theory they will have a shorter iron into the green and possibly even a wedge.  The faster the swing speed, the higher the lofted the club, the higher the ball, the more spin, meaning less roll out if any at all.  The slower the swing speed, the lower loft the club, the less spin, even more roll out off the green.

Was told by Lee Rinker that golf is about getting the ball to stop and there were 3 ways to do it.  Friction against the ground, high loft in the air, and producing spin.  Sounds like someone needs to find another method if they aren't producing enough spin.

Doesn't sound like a control the spin problem.  Sounds like a club selection problem, a course management problem, or even a ball problem.

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#68 darter79

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 10:01 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.



With girls 10-13 age group I see a ton this  . The kids are very conservative because it helps them get lower scores and generally the kid who plays it safe wins. There are very very few girls who really go at it.  The ones that do are much longer than everyone else.  

I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.  I also seen when a kid is going through a growth spurt they have a hard time with distance control in chipping.   Both of those things can really rack up extra strokes.

How many excuses will you come up with to why your kid can't shoot said good score. First she hits it too long now she swings to fast to stop it on a green. Do you know anything about golf? Back away from your kids golf game you are doing her a bad disservice. Perhaps try to teach her better yet look on youtube on how to create spin with a wedge since all coaches are stupid right .I would recommend you get a teacher and you back away and let them teach.  I guess DJ, Tiger or lots of others must have that same problem oh wait.  They hit greens control distance and spin. Tell me again how low does your daughter shoot since distance is the major factor in scoring? You are so full of it and everyone here knows it.

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#69 tiger1873

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 10:53 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 29 January 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.





I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.

I am curious to this because it doesn't make much sense to me.  If the kid is long then in theory they will have a shorter iron into the green and possibly even a wedge.  The faster the swing speed, the higher the lofted the club, the higher the ball, the more spin, meaning less roll out if any at all.  The slower the swing speed, the lower loft the club, the less spin, even more roll out off the green.

Was told by Lee Rinker that golf is about getting the ball to stop and there were 3 ways to do it.  Friction against the ground, high loft in the air, and producing spin.  Sounds like someone needs to find another method if they aren't producing enough spin.

Doesn't sound like a control the spin problem.  Sounds like a club selection problem, a course management problem, or even a ball problem.

I am not talking about my kid but I have seen a lot kids who can't get enough loft on a 5 iron or 7 iron so the angle coming into the green means more roll on the lower clubs.  Certain clubs you just need a certain speed to reliable stop them.

Also the reason they are using longer clubs is since they hit it longer they actually have to use less than a driver off the tee.  So any distance advantage is gone if they actually do course management. This is not something you see much in Florida but a much bigger issue when courses are built along a creek.

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#70 darter79

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:17 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 29 January 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.





I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.

I am curious to this because it doesn't make much sense to me.  If the kid is long then in theory they will have a shorter iron into the green and possibly even a wedge.  The faster the swing speed, the higher the lofted the club, the higher the ball, the more spin, meaning less roll out if any at all.  The slower the swing speed, the lower loft the club, the less spin, even more roll out off the green.

Was told by Lee Rinker that golf is about getting the ball to stop and there were 3 ways to do it.  Friction against the ground, high loft in the air, and producing spin.  Sounds like someone needs to find another method if they aren't producing enough spin.

Doesn't sound like a control the spin problem.  Sounds like a club selection problem, a course management problem, or even a ball problem.

I am not talking about my kid but I have seen a lot kids who can't get enough loft on a 5 iron or 7 iron so the angle coming into the green means more roll on the lower clubs.  Certain clubs you just need a certain speed to reliable stop them.

Also the reason they are using longer clubs is since they hit it longer they actually have to use less than a driver off the tee.  So any distance advantage is gone if they actually do course management. This is not something you see much in Florida but a much bigger issue when courses are built along a creek.

not enough loft on a 7i to stop it on a green? Stop bladingthem. No you don't need a certain speed to stop them. You need to hit them on the face solid to stop them.  More speed is more spin. Its that simple. Less speed is how you take spin off the shot. In terms of loft a 7i goes quite high. 5I I can see adults not getting that in the air i'll give you that but then again my 8 year old can hit an 5i pretty high.

Not all courses are set up to just bomb and wedge it. You have to think your way around a course, but if your long like you claim your kid is not an issue and then your long with a hybrid as well. Golf isn't always played on wide open cow pastures. You can't just be long you have to be long with control.


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#71 tiger1873

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:18 AM

View Postdarter79, on 29 January 2019 - 10:01 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.



With girls 10-13 age group I see a ton this  . The kids are very conservative because it helps them get lower scores and generally the kid who plays it safe wins. There are very very few girls who really go at it.  The ones that do are much longer than everyone else.  

I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.  I also seen when a kid is going through a growth spurt they have a hard time with distance control in chipping.   Both of those things can really rack up extra strokes.

How many excuses will you come up with to why your kid can't shoot said good score. First she hits it too long now she swings to fast to stop it on a green. Do you know anything about golf? Back away from your kids golf game you are doing her a bad disservice. Perhaps try to teach her better yet look on youtube on how to create spin with a wedge since all coaches are stupid right .I would recommend you get a teacher and you back away and let them teach.  I guess DJ, Tiger or lots of others must have that same problem oh wait.  They hit greens control distance and spin. Tell me again how low does your daughter shoot since distance is the major factor in scoring? You are so full of it and everyone here knows it.

I am not talking about my daughter. It more about seeing kids going through grow spurts. If anyone says a kid can go up 3 or 4 club lengths in a year and not effect their game there full of BS. You tend to see the same thing happen a lot and it should be expected.

The faster you swing the easier it to stop the ball.  But at some point they get to a point where they need to learn to control a ball stopping once they hit longer. Talking about Tiger, DJ or any other PGA pro is meaningless when you are talking about Kids generating.  They generate so much speed the ball spins backwards.

11

#72 iteachgolf

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:25 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 11:18 AM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 29 January 2019 - 10:01 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.



With girls 10-13 age group I see a ton this  . The kids are very conservative because it helps them get lower scores and generally the kid who plays it safe wins. There are very very few girls who really go at it.  The ones that do are much longer than everyone else.  

I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.  I also seen when a kid is going through a growth spurt they have a hard time with distance control in chipping.   Both of those things can really rack up extra strokes.

How many excuses will you come up with to why your kid can't shoot said good score. First she hits it too long now she swings to fast to stop it on a green. Do you know anything about golf? Back away from your kids golf game you are doing her a bad disservice. Perhaps try to teach her better yet look on youtube on how to create spin with a wedge since all coaches are stupid right .I would recommend you get a teacher and you back away and let them teach.  I guess DJ, Tiger or lots of others must have that same problem oh wait.  They hit greens control distance and spin. Tell me again how low does your daughter shoot since distance is the major factor in scoring? You are so full of it and everyone here knows it.

I am not talking about my daughter. It more about seeing kids going through grow spurts. If anyone says a kid can go up 3 or 4 club lengths in a year and not effect their game there full of BS. You tend to see the same thing happen a lot and it should be expected.

The faster you swing the easier it to stop the ball.  But at some point they get to a point where they need to learn to control a ball stopping once they hit longer. Talking about Tiger, DJ or any other PGA pro is meaningless when you are talking about Kids generating.  They generate so much speed the ball spins backwards.

Depends how it’s managed.  Have a 2021 grad who has grown 8” in the last year and his JGS ranking has improved 1800 spots in that same time frame, scoring is the lowest its ever been, and is one of the tops players in FL.  Growth spurts don’t have to mean big steps backwards if managed correctly

12

#73 leezer99

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:28 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 29 January 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.





I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.

I am curious to this because it doesn't make much sense to me.  If the kid is long then in theory they will have a shorter iron into the green and possibly even a wedge.  The faster the swing speed, the higher the lofted the club, the higher the ball, the more spin, meaning less roll out if any at all.  The slower the swing speed, the lower loft the club, the less spin, even more roll out off the green.

Was told by Lee Rinker that golf is about getting the ball to stop and there were 3 ways to do it.  Friction against the ground, high loft in the air, and producing spin.  Sounds like someone needs to find another method if they aren't producing enough spin.

Doesn't sound like a control the spin problem.  Sounds like a club selection problem, a course management problem, or even a ball problem.

I am not talking about my kid but I have seen a lot kids who can't get enough loft on a 5 iron or 7 iron so the angle coming into the green means more roll on the lower clubs.  Certain clubs you just need a certain speed to reliable stop them.

Also the reason they are using longer clubs is since they hit it longer they actually have to use less than a driver off the tee.  So any distance advantage is gone if they actually do course management. This is not something you see much in Florida but a much bigger issue when courses are built along a creek.

Imagine this course management scenario.  My son had a slim lead (one or two shots) on the second day of an event going into the ninth hole.  There's a bunker in the middle of the fairway with at least a five foot face... you end up in there and it's most certainly a bogey since it's a chip out scenario.  Said bunker is 190 to clear and into the wind.  I tell him to hit hybrid out to the right because I don't think he can clear the bunker, which would have given him about 120 in but a much less desirable angle.  He overrides the caddie and decides to take driver over the bunker so I said, 'at least wait until the wind dies down a bit' which he did.  Proceeds to demolish the ball leaving him about 40 yards to the green where he wedged it close and made his birdie putt.  

The only reason I share this is because the kids need to be the ones ultimately to make the decision on what to hit and when.  One, they learn much more quickly (good or bad) when they are executing a decision of their own and two, they are much more committed to the shot they want to hit.  Had he gone with the hybrid like I suggested there's a chance he isn't committed and hooks it into oblivion.

13

#74 tiger1873

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:49 AM

View Postdarter79, on 29 January 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 29 January 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 January 2019 - 11:40 PM, said:

What I find is the kids who hit a ton of greens personality wise are very loss adverse.  They have good swings and hit it very straight and play relatively conservative.  They sacrifice proximity and slightly better birdie opportunities for more consistent scores and fewer "bad" shots. They generally don't hit the ball the furthest because of their loss adverse nature, they won't swing recklessly enough to really push their speed limits.





I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.

I am curious to this because it doesn't make much sense to me.  If the kid is long then in theory they will have a shorter iron into the green and possibly even a wedge.  The faster the swing speed, the higher the lofted the club, the higher the ball, the more spin, meaning less roll out if any at all.  The slower the swing speed, the lower loft the club, the less spin, even more roll out off the green.

Was told by Lee Rinker that golf is about getting the ball to stop and there were 3 ways to do it.  Friction against the ground, high loft in the air, and producing spin.  Sounds like someone needs to find another method if they aren't producing enough spin.

Doesn't sound like a control the spin problem.  Sounds like a club selection problem, a course management problem, or even a ball problem.

I am not talking about my kid but I have seen a lot kids who can't get enough loft on a 5 iron or 7 iron so the angle coming into the green means more roll on the lower clubs.  Certain clubs you just need a certain speed to reliable stop them.

Also the reason they are using longer clubs is since they hit it longer they actually have to use less than a driver off the tee.  So any distance advantage is gone if they actually do course management. This is not something you see much in Florida but a much bigger issue when courses are built along a creek.

not enough loft on a 7i to stop it on a green? Stop bladingthem. No you don't need a certain speed to stop them. You need to hit them on the face solid to stop them.  More speed is more spin. Its that simple. Less speed is how you take spin off the shot. In terms of loft a 7i goes quite high. 5I I can see adults not getting that in the air i'll give you that but then again my 8 year old can hit an 5i pretty high.

Not all courses are set up to just bomb and wedge it. You have to think your way around a course, but if your long like you claim your kid is not an issue and then your long with a hybrid as well. Golf isn't always played on wide open cow pastures. You can't just be long you have to be long with control.

I can almost Guarantee Your 8 year old doesn't generate much speed or height to matter.  Have you seen 80 year play golf. None them have a problem with the ball stopping because the speed is just not there. It's the same thing with young kids. Give her 3 or 4 years when she can hit the driver 85-90 mph.  Different game but still not fast enough to generate  good spin.

The worst cow pastures are in Texas and Oklahoma.  The courses there are horrible. Most of the courses there are in flood plains that they crammed into housing developments. Not only that they're mud patches in the winter and hard cement in the summer. Most people in Texas think tricked up courses are cool.  Despite that there are some good courses there just harder to find but usually the bigger tournaments are on them.   You don't have that problem in Florida or California. Most of the courses you actually have to think your way through.

Edited by tiger1873, 29 January 2019 - 11:53 AM.


14

#75 iteachgolf

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 11:49 AM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 29 January 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 29 January 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 07:52 AM, said:




I been told that a big reason you will not see a kid who hits longer not always win is they need to control the spin coming into the greens so they can stop the ball. Very common to see girls who swing faster have the ball hit the green but roll off.

I am curious to this because it doesn't make much sense to me.  If the kid is long then in theory they will have a shorter iron into the green and possibly even a wedge.  The faster the swing speed, the higher the lofted the club, the higher the ball, the more spin, meaning less roll out if any at all.  The slower the swing speed, the lower loft the club, the less spin, even more roll out off the green.

Was told by Lee Rinker that golf is about getting the ball to stop and there were 3 ways to do it.  Friction against the ground, high loft in the air, and producing spin.  Sounds like someone needs to find another method if they aren't producing enough spin.

Doesn't sound like a control the spin problem.  Sounds like a club selection problem, a course management problem, or even a ball problem.

I am not talking about my kid but I have seen a lot kids who can't get enough loft on a 5 iron or 7 iron so the angle coming into the green means more roll on the lower clubs.  Certain clubs you just need a certain speed to reliable stop them.

Also the reason they are using longer clubs is since they hit it longer they actually have to use less than a driver off the tee.  So any distance advantage is gone if they actually do course management. This is not something you see much in Florida but a much bigger issue when courses are built along a creek.

not enough loft on a 7i to stop it on a green? Stop bladingthem. No you don't need a certain speed to stop them. You need to hit them on the face solid to stop them.  More speed is more spin. Its that simple. Less speed is how you take spin off the shot. In terms of loft a 7i goes quite high. 5I I can see adults not getting that in the air i'll give you that but then again my 8 year old can hit an 5i pretty high.

Not all courses are set up to just bomb and wedge it. You have to think your way around a course, but if your long like you claim your kid is not an issue and then your long with a hybrid as well. Golf isn't always played on wide open cow pastures. You can't just be long you have to be long with control.

I can almost Guarantee Your 8 year old doesn't generate much speed or height to matter.  Have you seen 80 year play golf. None them have a problem with the ball stopping because the speed is just not there. It's the same thing with young kids. Give her 3 or 4 years when she can hit the driver 85-90 mph.  Different game but still not fast enough to generate  good spin.

The worst cow pastures are in Texas and Oklahoma.  The courses there are horrible. Most of the courses there are in flood plains that they crammed into housing developments. Not only that they're mud patches in the winter and hard cement in the summer. Most people in Texas think tricked up courses are cool.  Despite that there are some good courses there just harder to find but usually the bigger tournaments are on them.   You don't have that problem in Florida or California. Most of the courses you actually have to think your way through.

What are you talking about?  All 80 year olds have trouble stopping their ball.  Lower speed creates a lower trajectory and flatter land angle.  Faster speeds mean it’s easier to stop the ball into greens, assuming proper clubfitting of course.  Period


15

#76 kekoa

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 12:41 PM

I've played with a few 80 yr olds before and most aren't hitting greens in regulation anyways.  On a 350 yard hole, its normally Driver, hybrid, hybrid, chipper :scare2:

With respect to an 8yr old kid being able to stop the ball with an approach shots- yes it can be done.  I would say my son can stop the ball with consistency with 7i down and he has just an average SS (for a kid his age).

16

#77 heavy_hitter

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 01:05 PM

This thread has gotten good.

17

#78 tiger1873

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 01:44 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 29 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

What are you talking about?  All 80 year olds have trouble stopping their ball.  Lower speed creates a lower trajectory and flatter land angle.  Faster speeds mean it's easier to stop the ball into greens, assuming proper clubfitting of course.  Period

I think it depends on the 80 year old. I see some pretty darn good 80 year olds who can hit the ball low and get it on the green with a 5 wood.  They almost roll it up on the green.  There just isn't enough velocity for them to worry about it. They can't get it up over water but they can still score into the 80's.   One of the best short games I ever seen is a 90 year old. They use a hybrid to chip and do pretty well with the putter because well they hit it lightly.  Most of us would never do that but it works for them

Considering there age they are doing pretty good but most people could never play their style of game. I not saying there going to win tournaments but the way they score defies conventional thinking.

Edited by tiger1873, 29 January 2019 - 01:46 PM.


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#79 darter79

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:04 PM

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

19

#80 kekoa

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:08 PM

I thought this thread was about the elements necessary for a junior golfer to take it low.  Not how seniors can shoot their age.  :to_become_senile:


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#81 BertGA

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:24 PM

If you can’t see how those two are related....;)

21

#82 darter79

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:30 PM

View Postkekoa, on 29 January 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

I thought this thread was about the elements necessary for a junior golfer to take it low.  Not how seniors can shoot their age.  :to_become_senile:

its about how the less speed you have the easier it is to stop the ball... oh wait.

22

#83 dfwgolf

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:54 PM

Here’s an article in what I am talking about. At a certain point a junior speed is fast enough to stop the stop ball. Most amateurs hit the ball higher to compensate but that doesn’t work in windy conditions.

http://www.golfwrx.c...l-on-the-green/

Edited by dfwgolf, 29 January 2019 - 02:54 PM.


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#84 heavy_hitter

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 03:05 PM

LOL!!!

Posted Image

Edited by heavy_hitter, 29 January 2019 - 03:07 PM.


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#85 leezer99

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 03:18 PM

View Postdfwgolf, on 29 January 2019 - 02:54 PM, said:

Here's an article in what I am talking about. At a certain point a junior speed is fast enough to stop the stop ball. Most amateurs hit the ball higher to compensate but that doesn't work in windy conditions.

http://www.golfwrx.c...l-on-the-green/

Just so everyone understands, your max height with irons should all be relatively the same.  The pros are at about 30 yards peak height with almost every club.  Descent angle increases the higher the loft (a 5 iron will come in shallower than a PW) but even with a 5 iron they are averaging close to 49 degree descent angle.  LPGA pros are probably a better comparison and they are at a peak height of 25 yards with a descent angle of about 46 degrees with their irons.  When we did my son's fitting last year we could have gone with a certain set of clubs and gotten more total yards but the descent angle was awful.  Instead we went with what's in the bag now because his descent angle was around 44 degrees on Trackman which helps him hold greens from longer yardages.  If he's hitting a 'hotter' club into greens like a 3w or hybrid he has to adjust for roll out but he rarely has those clubs into par fours anymore.

Posted Image


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#86 iteachgolf

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 03:26 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 January 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 29 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

What are you talking about?  All 80 year olds have trouble stopping their ball.  Lower speed creates a lower trajectory and flatter land angle.  Faster speeds mean it's easier to stop the ball into greens, assuming proper clubfitting of course.  Period

I think it depends on the 80 year old. I see some pretty darn good 80 year olds who can hit the ball low and get it on the green with a 5 wood.  They almost roll it up on the green.  There just isn't enough velocity for them to worry about it. They can't get it up over water but they can still score into the 80's.   One of the best short games I ever seen is a 90 year old. They use a hybrid to chip and do pretty well with the putter because well they hit it lightly.  Most of us would never do that but it works for them

Considering there age they are doing pretty good but most people could never play their style of game. I not saying there going to win tournaments but the way they score defies conventional thinking.

You’re completely missing the point. If they are rolling it up onto the green it’s because they can’t hold the greens.  They can’t fly it onto the green and stop it near where it lands.

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