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The most important thing that determines score


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#1 tiger1873

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:33 PM

I wondering what is the most important thing you think in ultimately determines how low a junior will eventually score? For instance is it driving distance, putting or the short game?  I know all are important but to me it looks like a few things stand out when I watch the pro's play.

To me the ability to hit it long off the tee is the single most important skill a golfer needs to score low.  You don't have to be the longest hitter but you have to X amount for a given course.


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#2 GSDriver

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:34 PM

Short game and jarring putts.
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#3 wlm

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:43 PM

For professionals, according to Lou Stagner it is as follows.  For kids, I would say distance moves way up.  For juniors going to play college golf, I bet the stats are pretty similar.

Posted Image

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#4 kekoa

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:48 PM

For younger juniors, it really depends on the player and their skill level.  I don't think you can throw a blanket over all of them and say any single element is most important to score lower.

I can only speak for my son who is a good ball striker and normally hits a large percentage of greens in regulation.  For him, its all about getting putts to fall.

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#5 tiger1873

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:49 PM

View Postwlm, on 23 January 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

For professionals, according to Lou Stagner it is as follows.  For kids, I would say distance moves way up.  For juniors going to play college golf, I bet the stats are pretty similar.

Posted Image

I these these stats are ok when comparing peers but I would bet everyone one of them can outdrive an average player by a mile.  If you canít drive it you will never get the chance to putt for birdie.

That why I think you need to be a better then average driver to win.

Edited by tiger1873, 23 January 2019 - 03:50 PM.


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#6 BertGA

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 04:13 PM

ďJuniorsĒ is a pretty big category. 8 yrs old? 16 years old? Elite, or just competing at local tour events? The reality is, you need to have a balanced game. Who cares if you drive the green then 3-putt.

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#7 CTgolf

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 04:31 PM

Just my personal observation, but I think the younger the competitor, the more important touch/fell around the greens is.

As they get older, the better ball strikers (including length but even moreso accuracy) prevail.

Short game and putting are probably relatively easier to improve the better the player, thus ball striking ultimately becomes the most important factor at the advanced stages of junior golf.

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#8 Tannerbug33

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 04:39 PM

I can tell you for my son last tournament it was the missed putts.

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#9 Ty_Webb

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 04:41 PM

It's much easier to learn to chip and putt than it is to learn to hit it far. If you have a kid and you want them to get somewhere, teach them to hit it hard while they're young. They may not win everything going while they're that age, but it will stand them in better stead later on. Of course, hitting it far normally coincides with hitting it with a square face in the middle and with a square path (or close to), so the longer hitters tend to hit it straighter too. You can have your good putter and I'll take the guy who hits it long and straight thanks.
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#10 wildcatden

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 05:14 PM

For a 6 to 8YO, I would say it is putting,  followed by short game (around the green), followed by approach shots, followed by driving distance. There are many rounds my kid has played that I call "lucky duck" golf......bad drive, worm burner to near the green, OK chip, make the 15 footer for par.  Next hole will be good drive, great approach and miss the 6 footer for birdie.

As they get older (assuming "age appropriate yardages....perhaps use USKG Regional or Worlds yardages as the rule of thumb), it seems as if ball striking becomes just as important as putting.


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#11 kekoa

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 05:20 PM

View Postwildcatden, on 23 January 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

For a 6 to 8YO, I would say it is putting,  followed by short game (around the green), followed by approach shots, followed by driving distance. There are many rounds my kid has played that I call "lucky duck" golf......bad drive, worm burner to near the green, OK chip, make the 15 footer for par.  Next hole will be good drive, great approach and miss the 6 footer for birdie.

As they get older (assuming "age appropriate yardages....perhaps use USKG Regional or Worlds yardages as the rule of thumb), it seems as if ball striking becomes just as important as putting.

+1 on this.  As courses get longer and more difficult with fast greens/guarding bunkers, it will weed out kids who can't hit golf shots.  By this, I mean get the ball in the air with some spin.   With shorter yardages and flat greens its pretty easy and common for kids to roll a ball up and make par or even birdie.

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#12 hangontight

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 08:00 PM

View Postkekoa, on 23 January 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 23 January 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

For a 6 to 8YO, I would say it is putting,  followed by short game (around the green), followed by approach shots, followed by driving distance. There are many rounds my kid has played that I call "lucky duck" golf......bad drive, worm burner to near the green, OK chip, make the 15 footer for par.  Next hole will be good drive, great approach and miss the 6 footer for birdie.

As they get older (assuming "age appropriate yardages....perhaps use USKG Regional or Worlds yardages as the rule of thumb), it seems as if ball striking becomes just as important as putting.

+1 on this.  As courses get longer and more difficult with fast greens/guarding bunkers, it will weed out kids who can't hit golf shots.  By this, I mean get the ball in the air with some spin.   With shorter yardages and flat greens its pretty easy and common for kids to roll a ball up and make par or even birdie.

+2 .  Once you get past local tours, you dont see a lot of 3-4 putts like you do at local level.  I cant speak for older age groups, but as my son is 8, at the regional and up I would say Distance and Ball Striking separate the TOP 5 Kids from the rest.  Seems the kids who can consistently win are able to get PW or less to green and then can throw darts.

Edited by hangontight, 23 January 2019 - 08:31 PM.


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#13 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 08:21 PM

https://golfpractice...ga-tour-player/

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#14 cardoustie

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 09:19 PM

Attitude and short game
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#15 tiger1873

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 07:53 AM

View Posthangontight, on 23 January 2019 - 08:00 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 23 January 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 23 January 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

For a 6 to 8YO, I would say it is putting,  followed by short game (around the green), followed by approach shots, followed by driving distance. There are many rounds my kid has played that I call "lucky duck" golf......bad drive, worm burner to near the green, OK chip, make the 15 footer for par.  Next hole will be good drive, great approach and miss the 6 footer for birdie.

As they get older (assuming "age appropriate yardages....perhaps use USKG Regional or Worlds yardages as the rule of thumb), it seems as if ball striking becomes just as important as putting.

+1 on this.  As courses get longer and more difficult with fast greens/guarding bunkers, it will weed out kids who can't hit golf shots.  By this, I mean get the ball in the air with some spin.   With shorter yardages and flat greens its pretty easy and common for kids to roll a ball up and make par or even birdie.

+2 .  Once you get past local tours, you dont see a lot of 3-4 putts like you do at local level.  I cant speak for older age groups, but as my son is 8, at the regional and up I would say Distance and Ball Striking separate the TOP 5 Kids from the rest.  Seems the kids who can consistently win are able to get PW or less to green and then can throw darts.


This is from the perspective of having an older kid and girls. I suspect it is similar for boys.  Once kids get to 11-12 most of them can hit the ball well or good and most of them can hit the ball and putt. Obviously some are better than other but that goes without saying.

The thing is there is a lot kids who still can't hit greens. The main reason I see this is simply do not have the distance to use the irons.  With the girls that yardage is still not that far so a lot kids who are not very far are still close to the green on their second shot. If you real close to the green it makes it an easy chip. The result is a lot kids can still par a lot holes and the score still looks decent.

Unless they actually get the distance up though their never going to get lower and ever able to truly break par.  Even a okay short game is going to win in the end over someone who has a killer short game but can not reach the greens in regulation. I notice that once they reach full yards a lot kids really struggle and I suspect it because they do not have the distance like most amateurs.

One thing not mentioned is the average women is less then 200 yards out there and the average guy is probably less than 250 yards.  With girls some are probably never going to reach much over 200 yards no matter how good of a ball striker they are.  I am pretty sure if your a girl and hit 200 yards or less the chances of scholarship is very very small and probably non- existant. For boy I would think they going to need to be above 250 yards for sure. Even then those yardages may be short.


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#16 yellowlover519

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 08:42 AM

View Postwlm, on 23 January 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

For professionals, according to Lou Stagner it is as follows.  For kids, I would say distance moves way up.  For juniors going to play college golf, I bet the stats are pretty similar.

Posted Image

Thereís a correlation between shots gained approach and distance off the tee, even at the pga level (long hitters have shorter irons into greens, thus better proximity to the hole % on approach shots).  I would say the correlation is even  more so with kids since their ball striking is not nearly as consistent or good.  For kids, I would say, in order: distance, putting, GIR% then short game.  Then the chart as they get to the top amateur events.

Edited by yellowlover519, 24 January 2019 - 08:48 AM.


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#17 Ty_Webb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 08:53 AM

View PostPinewood Golfer, on 23 January 2019 - 08:21 PM, said:

This article says this: There is no doubt that scratch golfer could make some money and make a few cuts on a few Tour events but that would be the best case scenario unlikely to happen every weekend. The rest of the times, the difference in class would show up clearly.

Really?

View Postyellowlover519, on 24 January 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

View Postwlm, on 23 January 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

For professionals, according to Lou Stagner it is as follows.  For kids, I would say distance moves way up.  For juniors going to play college golf, I bet the stats are pretty similar.

Posted Image

There's a correlation between shots gained approach and distance off the tee, even at the pga level (hitters have shorter irons into greens, thus better proximity to the hole % on approach shots).  I would say the correlation is even  more so with kids since their ball striking is not nearly as consistent or good.  For kids, I would say, in order: distance, putting, GIR% then short game.  Then the chart as they get to the top amateur events.

GIR% if you're including that is by some margin I think most closely correlated with score, but that's because it's an amalgam of different things. Better drivers hit more greens, because they're in position to do so more often and better approach players hit more greens because they're better at it. GIR% picks out the people who are best at both of those things and if you add "off the tee" to "approach shots" on that list it's way ahead of anything else.

I could easily believe that the best putters at your club are better than the worst putters on tour. I don't believe for a second that the best ball strikers at your club are better than the worst ball strikers on tour (unless you're a member of like whisper rock or somewhere like that).
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#18 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:30 AM

My daughter played in the Honda classic as an 11 year old and I came away with several observations. She was the smallest kid there in her age group and that was a huge disadvantage. In junior golf the bigger kids when early on because they are stronger and can hit the ball further. Distance is a huge advantage but especially at the younger ages. Short game was the other area that the better players excel in. My daughter gave away about 8 shots a round on putting and chipping and the really good players aren't doing that. So if I was ranking things, I would probably put distance and short game at the top.

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#19 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

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#20 Ty_Webb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 12:20 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

You can give your typical 100 shooter the finest golfing mind that has ever been and they won't be able to sniff under par. Heck - same thing is probably true of a typical 80 shooter. A good attitude is not going to overcome a lack of physical ability.

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#21 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 12:46 PM

View PostTy_Webb, on 24 January 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

You can give your typical 100 shooter the finest golfing mind that has ever been and they won't be able to sniff under par. Heck - same thing is probably true of a typical 80 shooter. A good attitude is not going to overcome a lack of physical ability.

We aren't talking about people that shoot in the 100's.  We also aren't talking about a lack of physical ability when it comes to the ability to score.  

The question was "The most important thing that determines score."

It isn't attitude having a good attitude.  It is a confidence and belief system which IS an attitude.  It is mental game and confidence.

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#22 kekoa

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 12:51 PM

View PostTy_Webb, on 24 January 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

You can give your typical 100 shooter the finest golfing mind that has ever been and they won't be able to sniff under par. Heck - same thing is probably true of a typical 80 shooter. A good attitude is not going to overcome a lack of physical ability.

  I bet your positive attitude got you to a +1.2 index right?. :taunt:

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#23 wildcatden

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:01 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 12:46 PM, said:

View PostTy_Webb, on 24 January 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

You can give your typical 100 shooter the finest golfing mind that has ever been and they won't be able to sniff under par. Heck - same thing is probably true of a typical 80 shooter. A good attitude is not going to overcome a lack of physical ability.

We aren't talking about people that shoot in the 100's.  We also aren't talking about a lack of physical ability when it comes to the ability to score.  

The question was "The most important thing that determines score."

It isn't attitude having a good attitude.  It is a confidence and belief system which IS an attitude.  It is mental game and confidence.

Every time my kid tees it up, I sing a little song to myself...."But he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes.He's got high apple pie, in the sky hopes."

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#24 CTgolf

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:06 PM

Rank #20-100 on JGS for class of 2019 boys shows an approximate range of -1.5 to -3 differential to rating.  That's a reasonably tight range.

I would agree that attitude and mental strength are probably the main differentiator between #20 and #100.  But attitude is probably far down the list in terms of the "most important thing" in getting to the top 100 in the first place.

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#25 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:12 PM

View Postwlm, on 23 January 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

For professionals, according to Lou Stagner it is as follows.  For kids, I would say distance moves way up.  For juniors going to play college golf, I bet the stats are pretty similar.

Posted Image

This is true for a pro...but a pro is going to have some level of proficiency at all these areas, so it's pretty relative.  The pro starts sticking approach shots and then he starts making more putts...cause-effect.  

BUT if a junior golfer can't get off the tee but is a good putter then you know where you need to work.  Likewise if he bombs it for his age, but 5 jacks every green hitting it like a pro doesn't matter.  

I would keep stats, identify weaknesses and then work on that.

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#26 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:17 PM

View Postcardoustie, on 23 January 2019 - 09:19 PM, said:

Attitude and short game

I truly believe Attitude, mental toughness, self-belief etc. are what separate the good from the great players in most any sport.  There are many golfers in this world that have Tiger's physical tools, and even his work ethic.  But the cream rises to the top because of the mental edge some players have.  When Spieth was running hot people couldn't believe he was winning because he wasn't hitting it long, or looking pretty.  But he believed he was going to hole every putt and hit good irons.  Jack did it for 25 years, Phil has it every year for a spell, others for a season or two.
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26

#27 Ty_Webb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:06 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 12:46 PM, said:

View PostTy_Webb, on 24 January 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

You can give your typical 100 shooter the finest golfing mind that has ever been and they won't be able to sniff under par. Heck - same thing is probably true of a typical 80 shooter. A good attitude is not going to overcome a lack of physical ability.

We aren't talking about people that shoot in the 100's.  We also aren't talking about a lack of physical ability when it comes to the ability to score.  

The question was "The most important thing that determines score."

It isn't attitude having a good attitude.  It is a confidence and belief system which IS an attitude.  It is mental game and confidence.

The question was what determines how low a junior will eventually score.

I took that to mean when they're older. At their peak. As in, if you're 12 years old, what should you be working on most if you want to be the best in the world when you're 30. The answer of course is everything, but the focus I would say at that age should be to hit it further. If maximising your potential is your goal that is. If that's not your goal, then by all means go have a putt. Or work on your attitude.
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#28 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:24 PM

View PostTy_Webb, on 24 January 2019 - 02:06 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 12:46 PM, said:

View PostTy_Webb, on 24 January 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.

You can give your typical 100 shooter the finest golfing mind that has ever been and they won't be able to sniff under par. Heck - same thing is probably true of a typical 80 shooter. A good attitude is not going to overcome a lack of physical ability.

We aren't talking about people that shoot in the 100's.  We also aren't talking about a lack of physical ability when it comes to the ability to score.  

The question was "The most important thing that determines score."

It isn't attitude having a good attitude.  It is a confidence and belief system which IS an attitude.  It is mental game and confidence.

The question was what determines how low a junior will eventually score.

I took that to mean when they're older. At their peak. As in, if you're 12 years old, what should you be working on most if you want to be the best in the world when you're 30. The answer of course is everything, but the focus I would say at that age should be to hit it further. If maximising your potential is your goal that is. If that's not your goal, then by all means go have a putt. Or work on your attitude.

Golf takes skill.  Scoring in golf takes confidence.

You are a +1.2.  You obviously have skill.  What is the difference between you and a +3?  My guess it would be practicing to gain confidence to stick a wedge or drain that 20 footer you have to make.  I would say the skill is pretty typical between you both.

28

#29 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:58 PM

Nicklaus said in his book, winning begets winning...

What he meant was that learning to win at an early age is a skill that is difficult to learn later in life.  If you learn to win early then you usually continue to win as you move up through the ranks.  Jack, Tiger and Phil, Jordan etc. they all won as juniors and continued when they turned pro.  

I guess my best advice is if you are serious about competing then put yourself under the gun as often as possible and learn how to win.  Play against your peers and learn to beat them.  Become a champion.  

If you want to know why Spieth has had so much success at an early age it's because he learned how to win at an early age, he learned to play golf, not driving range.  Most of the kids coming up have better looking swings on video, but he knows how to win.  Winning takes practice.
Current 17 club rotation
Callaway GBB/Ping G400
Callaway V Series 3w, HW
Callaway Steelhead 4 and 5 hybrid
Ping G 4-U
Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54* SS
Vokey 58 M grind
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Jones Utility
ECCO Biom Hybrid 3

29

#30 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:21 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 24 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

So lets recap...

Short Game: 5 votes
Putting: 5 votes
Distance: 6 votes
GIR: 2 votes
Having a Balanced Game: 1 vote
Accuracy / Ball Striking: 4 votes
Attitude: 1 vote

Clear as mud... glad we sorted that out.

And the only one that was close to being correct was Cardoustie.  Scoring is an attitude.  It is having the confidence and mental game to go under par.
No....itís driving distance. And itís not close. Driving distance correlates to the other factors so substantially that you canít ignore it. Itís easier to hit a GIR from 130 in the rough than 170 in fairway. Proximity is better from 130 than 170 which means total putts and putts per GIR are better. This is not a matter of opinion. The biggest difference between elite and good playersóat any levelóis driving distance. There are outlying exceptions to every rule but thereís a reason itís the rule


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