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College coaches recruiting international vs US players


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#31 CTgolf

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:00 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:


LOL!!!!!

Fencing is the sport?  How many high schools in the states have fencing?  I would say that fencing is more of a North Eastern US club sport than anything else.  There are only 46 Colleges in the entire country that offer Fencing.  4.5 scholarships for an 18 person roster for men's D1.   USA doesn't even place in Fencing in the Olympics do they?  Seriously, it ranks up there with Curling.

Yup, considered a "niche" sport...just like golf.  Swimming/diving, volleyball and squash too - heard higher and higher % of international recruits.

Very low number of participants (denominator) in many of those, and more scholarship/roster spots (numerator).  In terms of getting a kid into school or scholarship $ those are where it's at.  Golf...not so much.

Golf isn’t a niche sport.  People actually play it.

It’s an afterthought for 98% of high school athletes, and one of the sports kids can “participate” in when they can’t make other teams as it doesn’t require specific physical attributes like size, speed or strength

It is “niche” to the general public not reading this forum and website


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#32 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:23 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:


LOL!!!!!

Fencing is the sport?  How many high schools in the states have fencing?  I would say that fencing is more of a North Eastern US club sport than anything else.  There are only 46 Colleges in the entire country that offer Fencing.  4.5 scholarships for an 18 person roster for men's D1.   USA doesn't even place in Fencing in the Olympics do they?  Seriously, it ranks up there with Curling.

Yup, considered a "niche" sport...just like golf.  Swimming/diving, volleyball and squash too - heard higher and higher % of international recruits.

Very low number of participants (denominator) in many of those, and more scholarship/roster spots (numerator).  In terms of getting a kid into school or scholarship $ those are where it's at.  Golf...not so much.

Golf isnt a niche sport.  People actually play it.

Its an afterthought for 98% of high school athletes, and one of the sports kids can participate in when they cant make other teams as it doesnt require specific physical attributes like size, speed or strength

It is niche to the general public not reading this forum and website

You can find gambling odds on PGA golf at any sports book. You cant for swimming, fencing or whatever else yall were talking about. Golf doesnt have the reach of the big 3 but its far from niche

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#33 heavy_hitter

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 05:17 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:


LOL!!!!!

Fencing is the sport?  How many high schools in the states have fencing?  I would say that fencing is more of a North Eastern US club sport than anything else.  There are only 46 Colleges in the entire country that offer Fencing.  4.5 scholarships for an 18 person roster for men's D1.   USA doesn't even place in Fencing in the Olympics do they?  Seriously, it ranks up there with Curling.

Yup, considered a "niche" sport...just like golf.  Swimming/diving, volleyball and squash too - heard higher and higher % of international recruits.

Very low number of participants (denominator) in many of those, and more scholarship/roster spots (numerator).  In terms of getting a kid into school or scholarship $ those are where it's at.  Golf...not so much.

Golf isn’t a niche sport.  People actually play it.

It’s an afterthought for 98% of high school athletes, and one of the sports kids can “participate” in when they can’t make other teams as it doesn’t require specific physical attributes like size, speed or strength

It is “niche” to the general public not reading this forum and website

There are 19,000 athletes playing golf collegiately.  There are 1400 athletes fencing collegiately.  I wouldn’t consider 19,000 athletes a “niche” sport.

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#34 golow

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 08:31 PM

Quote

UTC.

Current roster looks similar, only 4 from the states.
Leon Bader R-Fr. Starnberg, Germany / Starnberg Secondary Etienne Brault Sr. Mercier, Quebec / Chateauguay Alex Cobb Fr. Brentwood, Tenn. / Brentwood Academy Lake Johnson Sr. Chattanooga, Tenn. / Chattanooga Christian Dominic Jones R-Fr. Espoo, Finland / Mlinne Senior Moritz Lammel Fr. Ismaning, Germany / Werner-Heisenberg A.J. Lintunen So. Espoo, Finland / Baylor Connor Nolan So. Corona, Calif. / Centennial Will Porter Jr. Arbroath, Scotland / Glenalmond Oliver Simonsen R-So. Ooltewah, Tenn. / Baylor


UTC's two best players are American and they are currently ranked 116 (Sagarin). Just a quick glance.

Take home message .... buy American !!

:victory:

Edited by golow, 18 January 2019 - 08:35 PM.


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#35 AUSweeper

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:41 AM

View Postgolow, on 18 January 2019 - 08:31 PM, said:

Quote

UTC.

Current roster looks similar, only 4 from the states.
Leon Bader R-Fr. Starnberg, Germany / Starnberg Secondary Etienne Brault Sr. Mercier, Quebec / Chateauguay Alex Cobb Fr. Brentwood, Tenn. / Brentwood Academy Lake Johnson Sr. Chattanooga, Tenn. / Chattanooga Christian Dominic Jones R-Fr. Espoo, Finland / Mlinne Senior Moritz Lammel Fr. Ismaning, Germany / Werner-Heisenberg A.J. Lintunen So. Espoo, Finland / Baylor Connor Nolan So. Corona, Calif. / Centennial Will Porter Jr. Arbroath, Scotland / Glenalmond Oliver Simonsen R-So. Ooltewah, Tenn. / Baylor


UTC's two best players are American and they are currently ranked 116 (Sagarin). Just a quick glance.

Take home message .... buy American !!

:victory:

UTC gets a break with the Baylor School being in town. Maybe best HS program in the nation.  Brings in some international students themselves.


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#36 CTgolf

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 05:17 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 18 January 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 18 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:


LOL!!!!!

Fencing is the sport?  How many high schools in the states have fencing?  I would say that fencing is more of a North Eastern US club sport than anything else.  There are only 46 Colleges in the entire country that offer Fencing.  4.5 scholarships for an 18 person roster for men's D1.   USA doesn't even place in Fencing in the Olympics do they?  Seriously, it ranks up there with Curling.

Yup, considered a "niche" sport...just like golf.  Swimming/diving, volleyball and squash too - heard higher and higher % of international recruits.

Very low number of participants (denominator) in many of those, and more scholarship/roster spots (numerator).  In terms of getting a kid into school or scholarship $ those are where it's at.  Golf...not so much.

Golf isn’t a niche sport.  People actually play it.

It’s an afterthought for 98% of high school athletes, and one of the sports kids can “participate” in when they can’t make other teams as it doesn’t require specific physical attributes like size, speed or strength

It is “niche” to the general public not reading this forum and website

There are 19,000 athletes playing golf collegiately.  There are 1400 athletes fencing collegiately.  I wouldn’t consider 19,000 athletes a “niche” sport.

There aren’t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn’t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person’s standard.

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#37 heavy_hitter

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:



There aren’t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn’t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person’s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarshipstats.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 19 January 2019 - 12:54 PM.


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#38 alfriday

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 01:13 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

There aren’t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn’t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person’s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarsh...ts.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.


Oh, the irony.

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#39 heavy_hitter

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:37 PM

View Postalfriday, on 19 January 2019 - 01:13 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

There arenâ€â„¢t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isnâ€â„¢t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE personâ€â„¢s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarsh...ts.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.


Oh, the irony.

You are correct.

Golf is mainstream and played on TV every day of the week.  Tell me how that makes it a niche sport.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 21 January 2019 - 09:24 AM.


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#40 GolfSRQ

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:45 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

View Postalfriday, on 19 January 2019 - 01:13 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

There aren€t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn€t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person€s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarsh...ts.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.


Oh, the irony.

You are correct.

Golf is mainstream and played on TV every day of the week.  Tell how that makes it a niche sport.

Hockey is not a niche sport


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#41 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:49 PM



If a sport has its own station its not niche. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey, golf, soccer and tennis.

I consider this argument resolved.

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#42 CTgolf

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:51 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:



There aren’t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn’t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person’s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarshipstats.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.

10678 men + 5665 women = 16343

You definitely add value to this forum, but you are probably the most overrated contributor considering how often you are wrong

And I think TM was right - you definitely are a bully

12

#43 Pinewood Golfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:09 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:



There aren’t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn’t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person’s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarshipstats.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.

10678 men + 5665 women = 16343

You definitely add value to this forum, but you are probably the most overrated contributor considering how often you are wrong

And I think TM was right - you definitely are a bully

His specifics may be wrong but your opinion is very wrong. I settled this 2 posts ago. So stop.

13

#44 heavy_hitter

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:48 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:



There aren€„¢t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn€„¢t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person€„¢s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarshipstats.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.

10678 men + 5665 women = 16343

You definitely add value to this forum, but you are probably the most overrated contributor considering how often you are wrong

And I think TM was right - you definitely are a bully

Wrong???

Last time I checked 12,199 men plus 7,132 women is 19,000+.  Maybe I am missing something.

Still trying to figure out how an opinion can be wrong.  

Bully???    I say what I have to say.  Whatever.

Go skiing lately?

Edited by heavy_hitter, 19 January 2019 - 09:24 PM.


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#45 heavy_hitter

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 07:36 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:



There aren€™t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn€™t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person€™s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarshipstats.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.

10678 men + 5665 women = 16343

You definitely add value to this forum, but you are probably the most overrated contributor considering how often you are wrong

And I think TM was right - you definitely are a bully

You are pulling your numbers from the wrong place.  You are not including international students.  So first you didn’t include women and now you aren’t including international students.


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#46 darter79

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 10:05 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 19 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 19 January 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

There aren’t 19k golfers as you stated.

http://www.scholarsh...arsityodds.html

Also, no one is saying fencing isn’t niche - just that golf is.  When you half the number of collegiate golfers as you do volleyball players, swimmers, lacrosse players and cross country runners that is niche by any REASONABLE person’s standard.

Hey Genius....  you left out the women!!!  

http://www.scholarsh...ts.com/golf.htm


Your statement is opinion.  Golf is not a niche sport.


Fencing
Rowing
Gymnastics
Hockey
Rifle
Skiing
Triathlon
Water Polo
Wrestling
Bowling
Triathlon

Are all niche sports.

10678 men + 5665 women = 16343

You definitely add value to this forum, but you are probably the most overrated contributor considering how often you are wrong

And I think TM was right - you definitely are a bully

Bully? Really. People don't even know the true meaning of a bully. You disagree with him and he a bully but yet you are only providing data that's one sided to your argument. Golf is a expensive sport but not a niche  sport.

16

#47 ncgolfer1234

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 07:55 PM

Some schools recruit largely international players because they can het higher quality players that way. This has been true at schools in the eastern part of the country over the past 20 years. See Kent State, ETSU, UTC, Augusta State, and now James Madison. Not exactly schools American kids grow up dreaming of going to.

Also, coaches do definitely have their biases that preclude them from recruiting certain types of kids. For example, I played at a high school that was well known for producing college players every year, dominating our state, multiple AJGA All-Americans. That being said, the flagship school in our state refused to recruit anybody from out school because the players who had played their had partied too hard and typically did not last long in the team. Meanwhile they would sign kids from the state who might have played 3 or 4 on our team.

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#48 RangerV

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 03:16 PM

Junior topics always get so heated and entertaining on here.
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#49 ChipNRun

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 05:28 PM

The secondary sport for all college golfers is varsity time management.

I am a college professor in the St. Louis area. My stops in academia include all four sports settings: NCAA D-1, D-2 and D-3, and NAIA.

For golf, D-1 of course is the toughest; although better D-2 schools are quite respectable, scholarships for the most part are partial.

NAIA schools tend to offer the smallest partial scholarships for golf, and D-3 schools by rules offer no-athletics specific scholarships: all D-3 students can apply for normal grant-in-aid and overall scholarships.

Fall golf is largely small outings and team building while spring golf is the big time: heavy league play and big-name tournaments and, for the top schools, their divisional NCAA tournament.

Golfers on the spring travel squad must coordinate carefully with their instructors to make up classes missed, and keep up with assignments. Sometimes the team will be gone for a week for some bigger tournaments. That is why the secondary sport for all collegiate golfers is time management.

A cautionary tale: many D-3 or NAIA schools have players who started out in the big time. But, these often very good golfers crashed and burned academically because they wouldn't manage their life properly.
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#50 heavy_hitter

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 05:42 PM

View PostChipNRun, on 21 January 2019 - 05:28 PM, said:

The secondary sport for all college golfers is varsity time management.

I am a college professor in the St. Louis area. My stops in academia include all four sports settings: NCAA D-1, D-2 and D-3, and NAIA.

For golf, D-1 of course is the toughest; although better D-2 schools are quite respectable, scholarships for the most part are partial.

NAIA schools tend to offer the smallest partial scholarships for golf, and D-3 schools by rules offer no-athletics specific scholarships: all D-3 students can apply for normal grant-in-aid and overall scholarships.

Fall golf is largely small outings and team building while spring golf is the big time: heavy league play and big-name tournaments and, for the top schools, their divisional NCAA tournament.

Golfers on the spring travel squad must coordinate carefully with their instructors to make up classes missed, and keep up with assignments. Sometimes the team will be gone for a week for some bigger tournaments. That is why the secondary sport for all collegiate golfers is time management.

A cautionary tale: many D-3 or NAIA schools have players who started out in the big time. But, these often very good golfers crashed and burned academically because they wouldn't manage their life properly.

Yep.  My daughter had class from 8-12 one day last week and was at Practice/workouts from 12:30 to 8:30.  Walked in the door at 9.  Went to bed at 9:30 and got up the next morning at 4:30 am to study.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 22 January 2019 - 09:06 AM.


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#51 jjgsgolf

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 01:29 PM

My coach in school always liked to go for the international players. He called them "raw" talent players, meaning that he could shape them better than he could the American kids. International kids were more eager to play well in some instances and perform better, because of this opportunity given to them.

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#52 Smpear

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 11:00 PM

While my son went through the recruiting process this year, I also noticed the large amount of international players on the division 2 teams we were looking at. I wonder how that even comes about, most d2 schools don’t have many funds for official visits much less flying a player from overseas. So if  the recruit visits on his own dime, he must really want to play college golf in the US.

I guess I answered my own question. Coaches know they are serious. Although as a coach I would worry about them getting homesick and baling after year 1.

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#53 tiger1873

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:25 AM

Been thinking about this some more and I think another big reason is a lot US kids don't stay 4 years. Some get homesick, want more playing time or just think the grass is greener somewhere else and transfer. The one is the better kids all decide that they can travel and turn pro and often do too soon.

All of these things cause problems

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#54 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:38 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 06 February 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

Been thinking about this some more and I think another big reason is a lot US kids don't stay 4 years. Some get homesick, want more playing time or just think the grass is greener somewhere else and transfer. The one is the better kids all decide that they can travel and turn pro and often do too soon.

All of these things cause problems

This isn’t true at all.

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#55 wildcatden

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:08 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 06 February 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

Been thinking about this some more and I think another big reason is a lot US kids don't stay 4 years. Some get homesick, want more playing time or just think the grass is greener somewhere else and transfer. The one is the better kids all decide that they can travel and turn pro and often do too soon.

All of these things cause problems

This is for D1 schools. Looks pretty steady.

http://www.ncaa.org/...ages-and-trends


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#56 Malvern

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 05:50 PM

View PostSmpear, on 30 January 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

While my son went through the recruiting process this year, I also noticed the large amount of international players on the division 2 teams we were looking at. I wonder how that even comes about, most d2 schools don’t have many funds for official visits much less flying a player from overseas. So if  the recruit visits on his own dime, he must really want to play college golf in the US.

I guess I answered my own question. Coaches know they are serious. Although as a coach I would worry about them getting homesick and baling after year 1.

Clubs sign soccer players from youtube videos, I'm not sure how many of the kids from my club actually set foot in the states prior to getting their scholarship and arriving at college.

If you come from here (as well as Sth Africa and NZ), we travel, its likely that the person going to college has a sibling/friends working in Asia/London/Europe (it would be quite common that up to 50% of Australians have worked abroad at some stage) and even the US now the visa requirements have lessened. As a generalisation they aint getting homesick to the point of throwing in their opportunity.

One of the boys was home for Xmas, he's in a college somewhere near Chicago (unsure which one), hates the weather given it never goes below 50F here. But he isn't quitting.

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