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How steep should the shoulder turn be?


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#1 Golfbeat

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:18 AM

I am still struggling a bit with finding the "ideal" level of steepness of the shoulder turn both into the back swing and down swing. When you put an alignment stick along your shoulders, should it point at the ball or outside the ball for a 7 iron? Is it the same for the back swing and down swing as well? I see that not all instructors have the same opinions on this. Obviously, for a driver it would be less steep than for a lob wedge but I would be interested in a stock position for a mid iron.

It seems that many amateurs are suffering from a too flat shoulder turn which can lead to many issues as a too much inside out or outside in path, casting, lack of shaft lean etc.

When I see pictures of pros in their back swing, I can see both arms. I rarely see this with amateurs. This must be the result of a steeper shoulder turn (and perhaps less forearm rotation).

There should be some data from 3D measuring I assume but I would like to know how to implement this with an alignment stick across the shoulders. Or, perhaps with another drill.

Thanks for your help.


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#2 juststeve

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:24 AM

Your shoulders should turn at approximately a right angle to your spine.  That will happen naturally if you allow the shoulder turn to be a response to the motion of the club.

Steve

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#3 mikpga

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:31 AM

The same amount you have in forward flexion at P1 in order to maintain your inclination...

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#4 Golfbeat

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:50 AM

 mikpga, on 14 January 2019 - 11:31 AM, said:

The same amount you have in forward flexion at P1 in order to maintain your inclination...

But how could you check this with a drill? Very hard to feel.

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#5 mikpga

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:16 PM

Head on the wall drill...


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#6 Golfbeat

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:38 PM

 mikpga, on 14 January 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

Head on the wall drill...

Like this? Seems to also help with early extension.



Edit: just tried this a few times. The angles feel very, very different from my swing!

Edited by Golfbeat, 14 January 2019 - 12:42 PM.


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#7 ferrispgm

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:40 PM

The shoulders should turn approximately perpendicular to spine angle at address.  For a lot of people, myself included, it almost feels like the the lead shoulder works straight down so very steep and the downswing shoulder turn feels very very flat.  I have taken video of myself where I feel like my downswing shoulder turn is level to the ground and it's right on plane.  This is really a good situation for which the new mirror vision app would be very beneficial.
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#8 Golfbeat

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:23 PM

 Shot, on 14 January 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

Rotate shoulders level to horizon and relative steepness will find spine angle.

I understand that this is the theory. However, when I think I execute this, I am on video in reality much flatter in the back swing than I think I am based on feel. I see this flat shoulder turn over and over again on photos and videos of amateurs. That why I think it has to be drilled in with a feel drill.

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#9 glk

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:31 PM

My go to shoulder turn drill courtesy Andrew Rice.



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#10 Golfbeat

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:36 PM

 glk, on 14 January 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

My go to shoulder turn drill courtesy Andrew Rice.



Thanks, that's what I was looking for. What I am saying is that this is a lot steeper than most amateurs, including myself, are doing. Even when fully aware of the theory of "keeping the spine angle".


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#11 glk

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:44 PM

 Golfbeat, on 14 January 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

 glk, on 14 January 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

My go to shoulder turn drill courtesy Andrew Rice.



Thanks, that's what I was looking for. What I am saying is that this is a lot steeper than most amateurs, including myself, are doing. Even when fully aware of the theory of "keeping the spine angle".
Yep.  Important thing to me is the lead knee works out toward toes and pivot brings it a bit toward the trail.    Face on doesn’t look like much though
Like this ( in my dreams).    
https://www.instagra.../p/BrBiHCqlCkz/


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#12 Golfbeat

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:50 PM

Yes, he has the "two arms look" in the back swing I was referring to.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Back Swing.png


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#13 Redjeep83

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:55 PM

 Golfbeat, on 14 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yes, he has the "two arms look" in the back swing I was referring to.

you can get that by having the shaft steeper on backswing.

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#14 glk

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:55 PM

 Golfbeat, on 14 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yes, he has the "two arms look" in the back swing I was referring to.
No right elbow peeking under left arm at the top.    Pretty much a sign of flat turn.

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#15 Fireballer

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:33 PM

Dont know how much sense this makes, but my shoulder turn is determined by my hand path. Im a big believer in the "hands in, club head out" intent.  As I move my hands in with my turn, and keep trail elbow straight, my shoulders turn on proper plane. As mentioned in OP, not rolling forearms over too quickly helps alot.


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#16 PJ72

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:44 PM

 Golfbeat, on 14 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

 mikpga, on 14 January 2019 - 11:31 AM, said:

The same amount you have in forward flexion at P1 in order to maintain your inclination...

But how could you check this with a drill? Very hard to feel.
I'd check out jim Waldrons tilt switch for the downswing part

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#17 Ghostwedge

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:19 PM

When i get lazy with my swing and spray a few shots i immediately think “ to flat, letʻs turn and tilt instead” works every time to recover.
Check out PGA Newman on youtube on shoulder plane drills.

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#18 jimb6golf

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 11:59 AM

Am going thru this problem right now where my swing became much too flat.  Working with a pro I've been able to get my forward bend much better and resulting in a better shoulder angle in my backswing.  Feels really weird but hopefully it will result in an improved swing.

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#19 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:22 PM

 Golfbeat, on 14 January 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

Obviously, for a driver it would be less steep than for a lob wedge but I would be interested in a stock position for a mid iron.

It seems that many amateurs are suffering from a too flat shoulder turn which can lead to many issues as a too much inside out or outside in path, casting, lack of shaft lean etc.
Driver to LW should have the same exact steepness. The difference should be where the impact is located in front of you.

Most amateurs come outside in and not in to out. Hooking is more common in better players and pulls or fades/slices are more common with higher handicapped players.

The only thing I can add to this is to not bend over as much as you think you should.

Edited by Lincoln_Arcadia, 15 January 2019 - 12:22 PM.


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#20 glk

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 09:07 AM

A few months back, Tyler had a good video on incorporating sidebend and rotation into the backswing.   His take - do sidebend first - get the lead shoulder moving down to the lead foot - it won’t but it works well to blend the two versus starting with a feel of rotation.      If doing Andrew rice drill it’s easy to get.


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#21 Golfbeat

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 09:30 AM

I was also reminded again of the back swing method of J.F. Tamayo. You can read it for free if you have Amazon Unlimited.

https://www.amazon.c...rds=tamayo golf

It is quite different. I had some good success with it and then forgot all about it. He basically says that most people turn too flat and he has a simple trick to get the shoulders turning much steeper.

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#22 iteachgolf

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 04:29 PM

 Lincoln_Arcadia, on 15 January 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

 Golfbeat, on 14 January 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

Obviously, for a driver it would be less steep than for a lob wedge but I would be interested in a stock position for a mid iron.

It seems that many amateurs are suffering from a too flat shoulder turn which can lead to many issues as a too much inside out or outside in path, casting, lack of shaft lean etc.
Driver to LW should have the same exact steepness. The difference should be where the impact is located in front of you.

Most amateurs come outside in and not in to out. Hooking is more common in better players and pulls or fades/slices are more common with higher handicapped players.

The only thing I can add to this is to not bend over as much as you think you should.

It won’t be the same with all clubs.

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#23 cyr67

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:23 PM

 Golfbeat, on 16 January 2019 - 09:30 AM, said:

I was also reminded again of the back swing method of J.F. Tamayo. You can read it for free if you have Amazon Unlimited.

https://www.amazon.c...rds=tamayo golf

It is quite different. I had some good success with it and then forgot all about it. He basically says that most people turn too flat and he has a simple trick to get the shoulders turning much steeper.
So what is the simple trick?

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#24 Zitlow

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 01:01 AM

You shouldn't be concerned with it unless you're at the limits of either spectrum, too horizontal or too vertical. If you want to hit the ball with power and accuracy you should figure out how to make a small pulley with your hands and club. For the short game try to make a bigger pulley (start club head first). I think it was Kevin M. who I first saw talking about 2 different games.

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#25 Golfbeat

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 08:06 AM

 cyr67, on 16 January 2019 - 10:23 PM, said:

 Golfbeat, on 16 January 2019 - 09:30 AM, said:

I was also reminded again of the back swing method of J.F. Tamayo. You can read it for free if you have Amazon Unlimited.

https://www.amazon.c...rds=tamayo golf

It is quite different. I had some good success with it and then forgot all about it. He basically says that most people turn too flat and he has a simple trick to get the shoulders turning much steeper.
So what is the simple trick?

It's a very short read and I do not want to infringe on copyrights. However, it basically comes down to keeping your left shoulder very close to your body and turn it down inside your toe line towards your right ankle. It will feel more like a downward, lateral slide of the left shoulder to the right than a turn.

Edited by Golfbeat, 17 January 2019 - 08:08 AM.


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#26 golfie1

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 09:05 AM

Extend your thoracic spine on the backswing. This will force you to put in left side Bend to ensure that your head doesn't move upwards.

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#27 dap

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 07:56 PM

First of all don't sway your upper body away from the target on the backswing. Swaying can encourage a flat shoulder turn. Try to be centered.

Second, feel like you point your left shoulder at your feet as you take the club away and at the top of the backswing. If you get too steep a shoulder turn, back that off a little and not pointed so vertical downwards however, if you suffer a very flat shoulder shoulder turn you probably need to feel the left shoulder point down as vertical as possible.

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#28 sirparalot

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:18 AM

 glk, on 14 January 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

My go to shoulder turn drill courtesy Andrew Rice.


Can't tell you how eye opening this was for me.  I always felt like my backswing was steep enough and guess what...not even close.  I tried this and bang right into the wall with the handle.  I am an S&T golfer who has had some struggles with arms coming off the chest in the follow through and shoulder down is one of the main keys to success for S&T and I was no where close. This drill along with the tour striker ball have really helped me get the right feels and my arms/club in a much better position through the hitting area in my practice at home.  Looking forward to taking it to the range soon.

Edited by sirparalot, 19 January 2019 - 07:18 AM.


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#29 Golfbeat

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:25 AM

Steeper shoulder turn and less (almost none) clock wise arm rotation in the back swing will be my main focus for the next months.

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#30 dap

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 08:07 AM

If you have a slightly flat shoulder turn I wouldn't worry about it. It's only maybe a problem if you are very flat. If memory serves me correct Hogan had a slightly flat shoulder turn in relation to turning perpendicular to spine.


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