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Bryson/Speath advice


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#1 x-out

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:29 PM

If I heard correctly it went something like this:

Announcer:  Bryson have others asked you about when to leave the flagstick in?

Bryson:  Yea, a couple.  Like on 15 yesterday Jordan said think I should leave the flag in?

Bryson sort of mumbled:  And I said why not

Hopefully someone will have the telecast.


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#2 sui generis

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:33 PM

 x-out, on 12 January 2019 - 09:29 PM, said:

If I heard correctly it went something like this:

Announcer:  Bryson have others asked you about when to leave the flagstick in?

Bryson:  Yea, a couple.  Like on 15 yesterday Jordan said think I should leave the flag in?

Bryson sort of mumbled:  And I said why not

Hopefully someone will have the telecast.

When making a judgment concerning "Advice" look to the RoG Definition:

Advice - Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence you or another player in choosing a club, making a stroke, or deciding how to play during a hole or round. But advice does not include public information, such as the location of things on the course, the distance from one point to another, or the Rules.

and, these Interpretations:

Advice/1 – Verbal Comments or Actions That Are Advice

Examples of when comments or actions are considered advice and are not allowed include:

A player makes a statement regarding club selection that was intended to be overheard by another player who had a similar stroke.

In individual stroke play, Player A, who has just holed out on the 7th hole, demonstrates to Player B, whose ball was just off the putting green, how to make the next stroke. Because Player B has not completed the hole, Player A gets the penalty on the 7th hole. But, if  both Player A and Player B had completed the 7th hole, Player A gets the penalty on the 8th hole.

A player’s ball is lying badly and the player is deliberating what action to take. Another player comments, “You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would decide to take unplayable ball relief.” This comment is advice because it could have influenced the player in deciding how to play during a hole.

While a player is setting up to hit his or her shot over a large penalty area filled with water, another player in the group comments, “You know the wind is in your face and it’s 250 yards to carry that water?”

Advice/2 – Verbal Comments or Actions That Are Not Advice

Examples of comments or actions that are not advice include:

During play of the 6th hole, a player asks another player what club he or she used on the 4th hole that is a par-3 of similar length.

A player makes a second stroke that lands on the putting green. Another player does likewise. The first player then asks the second player what club was used for the second stroke.

After making a stroke, a player says, “I should have used a 5-iron” to another player in the group that has yet to play onto the green, but not intending to influence his or her play.

A player looks into another player’s bag to determine which club he or she used for the last stroke without touching or moving anything.

While lining up a putt, a player mistakenly seeks advice from another player’s caddie, believing that caddie to be the player’s caddie. The player immediately realizes the mistake and tells the other caddie not to answer.

Edited by sui generis, 12 January 2019 - 09:35 PM.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#3 Hawkeye77

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:28 PM

Thank goodness it was Speath!

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#4 QEight

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 03:51 PM

 Hawkeye77, on 12 January 2019 - 10:28 PM, said:

Thank goodness it was Speath!

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#5 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:02 AM

 x-out, on 12 January 2019 - 09:29 PM, said:

Hopefully someone will have the telecast.

I don't have it but I heard it yesterday as I was watching the DVR recording.

Speith's words as described by Bryson.  "I might as well leave the flag in, It couldn't hurt anything.  Right?"

Some possibility that it might have been rhetorical, it wasn't clear whether he was expecting an answer or not.


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#6 x-out

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:12 AM

 Stuart G., on 14 January 2019 - 04:02 AM, said:

 x-out, on 12 January 2019 - 09:29 PM, said:

Hopefully someone will have the telecast.

I don't have it but I heard it yesterday as I was watching the DVR recording.

Speith's words as described by Bryson.  "I might as well leave the flag in, It couldn't hurt anything.  Right?"

Some possibility that it might have been rhetorical, it wasn't clear whether he was expecting an answer or not.

Bryson certainly implied he was seeking confirmation, but perhaps 10.2 doubt goes to player.  I would think they would have interviewed the two despite Speath probably long gone re cut.

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#7 TerpFangolfer

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:32 AM

I like it...double down on the misspelling, like the dude did over in Tour Talk with Xander (well he did more than double down) :taunt:
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#8 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:06 AM

 x-out, on 14 January 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

Bryson certainly implied he was seeking confirmation, but perhaps 10.2 doubt goes to player.  I would think they would have interviewed the two despite Speath probably long gone re cut.

Yes, I agree Bryson thought he was being asked, but (IMO) the determination depends on whether Jordan was expecting an answer or not.   He is known to have a lot of conversations with himself :-)

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#9 Augster

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:21 AM

IMO, it was clearly asking for advice. Itís one of the things I wish they would have cleared up with the new rules or did away with. Sadly, they left the advice rules just as ambiguous as before.

I think he should have taken the penalty. Retroactively he should take the penalty just to show he knows he was in the wrong and didnít even realize he had done it. He missed the cut anyway, so why not play by the Rules?

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#10 sui generis

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:28 AM

 Augster, on 14 January 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

IMO, it was clearly asking for advice. It's one of the things I wish they would have cleared up with the new rules or did away with. Sadly, they left the advice rules just as ambiguous as before.

I think he should have taken the penalty. Retroactively he should take the penalty just to show he knows he was in the wrong and didn't even realize he had done it. He missed the cut anyway, so why not play by the Rules?

The Rules not only define Advice but go on, in two Interpretations, to help us understand the concept. It's as simple as this, the referee or the Committee asks the player or players what was said and what was their intent. How is that "ambiguous"? :)

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#11 dlygrisse

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:30 AM

View PostHawkeye77, on 12 January 2019 - 10:28 PM, said:

Thank goodness it was Speath!

Wrong, it was actually Young Jordan Speeth. :)
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#12 sui generis

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:48 AM

View Postdlygrisse, on 14 January 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 12 January 2019 - 10:28 PM, said:

Thank goodness it was Speath!

Wrong, it was actually Young Jordan Speeth. :)

Whoa, not Spiith?
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#13 Mr. Bean

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:53 AM

View Postsui generis, on 14 January 2019 - 10:28 AM, said:

View PostAugster, on 14 January 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

IMO, it was clearly asking for advice. It's one of the things I wish they would have cleared up with the new rules or did away with. Sadly, they left the advice rules just as ambiguous as before.

I think he should have taken the penalty. Retroactively he should take the penalty just to show he knows he was in the wrong and didn't even realize he had done it. He missed the cut anyway, so why not play by the Rules?

The Rules not only define Advice but go on, in two Interpretations, to help us understand the concept. It's as simple as this, the referee or the Committee asks the player or players what was said and what was their intent. How is that "ambiguous"? :)

That would my approach as well. Ask Bryson if he felt he was asked or not. Ask Speath what did he mean by his words.

After all, the question mark in the end written by Stuart G. may or may not be correct but that would be for the referee to decide.

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#14 KMeloney

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:57 AM

I'm just glad Alfie Barronrat wasn't involved.

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#15 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:58 AM

View PostAugster, on 14 January 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

I think he should have taken the penalty. Retroactively he should take the penalty just to show he knows he was in the wrong and didn't even realize he had done it. He missed the cut anyway, so why not play by the Rules?

If he actually was aware of the infraction, I suspect he probably would have. The context of the interview had nothing to do with it being a possible rules violation and I've seen no other mention of the possibility anywhere else.

View PostMr. Bean, on 14 January 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

After all, the question mark in the end written by Stuart G. may or may not be correct but ...

Pretty sure a question mark is valid for rhetorical questions (but then as an engineer, I'm certainly not the most reliable source ;-)

But I agree completely that the proper course would be to interview Jordan to gauge intent prior to any ruling.

Edited by Stuart G., 14 January 2019 - 10:59 AM.


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#16 Mr. Bean

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:00 PM

View PostStuart G., on 14 January 2019 - 10:58 AM, said:

View PostMr. Bean, on 14 January 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

After all, the question mark in the end written by Stuart G. may or may not be correct but ...

Pretty sure a question mark is valid for rhetorical questions (but then as an engineer, I'm certainly not the most reliable source ;-)

But I agree completely that the proper course would be to interview Jordan to gauge intent prior to any ruling.

But there you already assume it is a question, although a rhetorical one.

Could also be "I might as well leave the flag in, It couldn't hurt anything.  Right! "

In this version the word 'right' would be there to reinforce or seal the decision to putt with the flag in.

Personally I believe in the question mark in which case a breach is extremely close but as already said, we cannot know for sure without interviewing both players.

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#17 Hawkeye77

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:25 PM

Tournament is over, you don't retroactively asked to be assessed a penalty, lol. Rules require no such thing.

Haven't even seen anything to suggest the issue was raised with him but maybe that's in here somewhere.

Edit: apparently not. Nothing Jordan needs to do other than not do it again.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 15 January 2019 - 04:20 PM.


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#18 dlygrisse

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:51 PM

So now does he miss the cut by even more?
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#19 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:03 PM

If we’re going to pick apart Speith’s words to see if they constituted asking for advice, we should similarly pick apart Bryson’s response to see if it was providing advice (whether or not the advice was asked for).

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#20 antip

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:42 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 14 January 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

If we’re going to pick apart Speith’s words to see if they constituted asking for advice, we should similarly pick apart Bryson’s response to see if it was providing advice (whether or not the advice was asked for).
Agree, and if there was truly a smoking gun, I expect it would have happened.  The Tournament Committee would highly likely have access to more information than the rest of us and if there was something a little hinky, there would be a number of handling strategies that do not involve feeding the media machine.  

That said, it's good for the forum to discuss something that appears questionable under the rules.  It offers an opportunity to become more familiar with the requirements of the rules and their application on the course.


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#21 HitEmTrue

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:48 PM

Someone will get his name right...eventually.


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#22 jj9000

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:50 PM

I bet he calls his putter cover The Speath Sheath.

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#23 hendog39

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:52 PM

He was joking with bryson and not seeking advice

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#24 Stuart G.

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 04:36 AM

View PostMr. Bean, on 14 January 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

But there you already assume it is a question, although a rhetorical one.

Could also be "I might as well leave the flag in, It couldn't hurt anything.  Right! "

In this version the word 'right' would be there to reinforce or seal the decision to putt with the flag in.

Personally I believe in the question mark in which case a breach is extremely close but as already said, we cannot know for sure without interviewing both players.

Yes, both should be interviewed but ... it wasn't really an assumption.  It was based on the inflection used when Bryson told the story.  There is no doubt in my mind that it was a question, or to be more precise,  there is no doubt that Bryson interpreted it as a question.

And I wasn't assuming it was rhetorical. I just said it wasn't clear from the story either way whether it was intended by Jordan to be rhetorical or not.

Edited by Stuart G., 15 January 2019 - 04:36 AM.


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