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Glass Shafting Beads


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#1 MrGoobers

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:34 AM

Building my first couple sets of irons and have one iron head/shaft pairing that does not have a very snug dry fit in the hosel.  I double checked the hosel and shaft diameters via online specs and we should be good there.

My question is about shafting beads.  I bought a jar along with the epoxy.  I have a couple of questions:
1.  The dry fit is a little loose but nothing that I think epoxy can't take care of.  Shafting beads are marketed as a way to make sure the shaft is centered in the hosel.  Any truth to that in your experiences?  And does it make a difference that would warrant the beads?

2.  Beads (or at least these ones) are also marketed as a way to strengthen the epoxy bond.  I read the opposite in an old post here.  Any other thoughts there?

3.  Lastly, the instructions on the beads say to add 2% of the volume of the epoxy.  I have no idea how to do that.  I have a kitchen scale but, because i'm going to be mixing epoxy per club (based on what I've read), I don't this kitchen scale has the precision needed.  Do they effectively mean a pinch into the epoxy mix for a single club?


Basically, should I use beads?  And if so, how the hell do I know how much to use?

Thanks Guys.


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#2 skraly

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 04:24 PM

View PostMrGoobers, on 09 January 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

Building my first couple sets of irons and have one iron head/shaft pairing that does not have a very snug dry fit in the hosel.  I double checked the hosel and shaft diameters via online specs and we should be good there.

My question is about shafting beads.  I bought a jar along with the epoxy.  I have a couple of questions:
1.  The dry fit is a little loose but nothing that I think epoxy can't take care of.  Shafting beads are marketed as a way to make sure the shaft is centered in the hosel.  Any truth to that in your experiences?  And does it make a difference that would warrant the beads?

2.  Beads (or at least these ones) are also marketed as a way to strengthen the epoxy bond.  I read the opposite in an old post here.  Any other thoughts there?

3.  Lastly, the instructions on the beads say to add 2% of the volume of the epoxy.  I have no idea how to do that.  I have a kitchen scale but, because i'm going to be mixing epoxy per club (based on what I've read), I don't this kitchen scale has the precision needed.  Do they effectively mean a pinch into the epoxy mix for a single club?



Basically, should I use beads?  And if so, how the hell do I know how much to use?

Thanks Guys.
I’m not a certified club repaiman.  But I’ve done a lot of work for myself and a few friends.  Here’s my understanding about your questions.
First, though you checked online specs for your components, manufacturing tolerances can cause some issues.
1.I only use shafting beads on graphite shafts.  The idea is to help center the shaft in the hosel and prevent a stress riser.  Anything more loose would require a shim.
2.Beads do not strengthen the epoxy bond.  But properly used with an appropriate shafting epoxy and the bond will be more than strong enough.
3.If you have no way to measure the volume of epoxy you are using then do the following, it’s the way I do it and I’ve never had an issue.  Make sure the inside of the hosel and shaft tip are properly prepped.    First, give the inside of the hosel a light coat of epoxy, then coat the portion of the tip that will be inserted with a light coat of epoxy.  Sprinkle a thin layer of shafting beads on a piece of paper.  Ligthly roll the epoxy coated tip in the shafting beads so a uniform coat of beads is formed.  Insert the shaft with a twisting motion until the shaft bottoms out in the hosel.  Wipe off any excess epoxy that is squeezed out and set upright to cure.
I also like to use a small heat source to decrease the cure time of the epoxy.  This also strenghtens the epoxy bond.  This is not required but is helpful.  There are several different ways to apply a little heat while curing.  You can check them out via Google.
Probably others will chime in to tell me how wrong I am about all of this but this is how I’ve done it for about 15 years and I’ve never had a bond fail.

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#3 MrGoobers

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 06:05 PM

Thanks, this certainly does help.  I will probably hold off on the beads until I'm working with graphite - I'm only doing steel shafts for irons right now.

And great tip for the application of the beads.

Thanks again.

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#4 Socrates

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 06:27 PM

Glass shafting beads are .002" in diameter (at least the ones sold by Mitchell).  That's 0.05mm for metric users.  If you think that is going to center your shaft in the hosel, I've got a friend in Nigeria that is looking to talk to you about finances.
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#5 MrFlapjack

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:21 AM

I usually mix enough epoxy for 4 or 5 clubs then add whatever beads I can fit on the end of a clean wooden stirring stick.  I think its definitely one of those less is more things. Adding a little bit will get you what you need, but too much will weaken the mix and wont gain you anything.  It's not like the .002 beads stack on top of each other so you dont really need much, and more isn't really better.

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#6 jasonp87

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:07 AM

View PostSocrates, on 09 January 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

Glass shafting beads are .002" in diameter (at least the ones sold by Mitchell).  That's 0.05mm for metric users.  If you think that is going to center your shaft in the hosel, I've got a friend in Nigeria that is looking to talk to you about finances.

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#7 Nessism

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 09:53 AM

Shafting beads and heat guns: the two most misused items in the workshop.
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#8 dbdors

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:09 AM

From Brampton, they have a good reputation for their epoxy/adhesives: https://bramptontech...shafting-beads/

Yes, they sell beads, but they also have an epoxy/adhesive reputation to uphold.  They have studied this like any company selling a good product.  I trust them.

Edited by dbdors, 10 January 2019 - 11:35 AM.


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#9 Nessism

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:40 PM

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 11:09 AM, said:

From Brampton, they have a good reputation for their epoxy/adhesives: https://bramptontech...shafting-beads/

Yes, they sell beads, but they also have an epoxy/adhesive reputation to uphold.  They have studied this like any company selling a good product.  I trust them.

I'd love to see their testing data showing how adding beads increases strength.  Sounds like snakeoil to me.  And FWIW, I did some lap shear strength testing and proved that beads reduce strength.
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#10 dbdors

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:46 PM

From some brief searches, there seem to be a lot of research studies on the subject.  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00914037208082114

Do you think they would risk a reputation on snake oil.  I am amazed how many people refute good engineering based on a "gut feel".

I just think I would trust someone with engineering experience and testing over a DIYer working in their garage or basement, and no data.

But I am an engineer.

Edited by dbdors, 10 January 2019 - 01:54 PM.


Woods: Ping G30 10.5 Aldila Rogue Silver 60 Tour S, TEE CBX 4W (16.5) Aldila Rogue Silver 70 S
Hybrids: TEE CBX 3H (20d), 4H (22d), Kuro Kage Silver Hybrid 80 S
Irons: TM 2017 M2, 5-PW, KBS Tour 105 S
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#11 Z1ggy16

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:53 PM

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

From some brief searches, there seem to be a lot of research studies on the subject.  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00914037208082114

Do you think they would risk a reputation on snake oil.  I am amazed how many people refute good engineering based on a "gut feel".

I just think I would trust some one with engineering experience and testing over a DIYer working in their garage or basement.

But I am an engineer.

Quote

Adhesion of the matrix to the glass beads was only important when the polymer was ductile. Improved adhesion permitted the beads to constrain polymer flow and decrease the fracture energy. Poor adhesion permitted flow around the beads which required additional energy for crack propagation. At low temperatures, where the matrix was brittle, the additional constraints caused by adhesion appeared to make little difference.

^ Seems to be the key paragraph from the study. To me that reads that beads make little difference.

I always add just a little bit to my epoxy mixture for centering purposes, but I'll admit I do it more for the novelty of it because there's no way to ensure the beads are coating either surface evenly or homogeneously. I really don't think it makes a difference. I've also never had a graphite shaft break on me or have any failures from using just a small amount in all my clubs.

Edited by Z1ggy16, 10 January 2019 - 01:54 PM.

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#12 dbdors

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:09 PM

That's just one study.  There seems to be a bunch out there.  My point is that I'd bet that Brampton has read a few and likely consulted with some researchers and discussed it with their epoxy MFG.  They know what they are doing!  I trust this over some guy in his garage or basement that had one bad result from using glass beads (myself included), and then concluding that adding beads is the worst thing ever.

I do realize that I used too much at the time, (or at least I think so, it could have been prep or a number of issues, but I dont have any data).   Knew it when I did.  I still use them, but I use a tiny amount.

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#13 Nessism

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:24 PM

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

From some brief searches, there seem to be a lot of research studies on the subject.  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00914037208082114

Do you think they would risk a reputation on snake oil.  I am amazed how many people refute good engineering based on a "gut feel".

I just think I would trust someone with engineering experience and testing over a DIYer working in their garage or basement, and no data.

But I am an engineer.

I'm an engineer too and the lap shear strength testing I did was not "in my garage or basement", it was done using a certified tensile strength testing machine where I work at an aerospace component supplier.  http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry15487028

In a nutshell shafting beads reduced the lap shear strength by 15%.  This was done at a normal temperature, not hot or cold.  

Everyone is free to do what they want but personally I never use shafting beads.  To me the only thing it accomplishes is to increase viscosity and reduce sagging, which could be useful in truth.  In fact, in my experience that Bramptons 20-20 is thin and runny and adding beads may actually help by keep it in place.

Edited by Nessism, 10 January 2019 - 03:24 PM.

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Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

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#14 dubbelbogey

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:27 PM

View PostSocrates, on 09 January 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

Glass shafting beads are .002" in diameter (at least the ones sold by Mitchell).  That's 0.05mm for metric users.  If you think that is going to center your shaft in the hosel, I've got a friend in Nigeria that is looking to talk to you about finances.

Not sure I understand. A typical sheet of copier paper is about 0.003" thick. If you take a sheet of paper and wrap it around a shaft, that'll add 0.006 to the diameter, and almost certainly will not allow a typical shaft to be inserted into most hosels unless the fit was very loose to begin with. 0.002 beads are 2/3rds the thickness, in other words a pretty significant percentage. Why wouldn't a reasonably even distribution of shaft beads, which would add a minimum of 0.004" have some effect of centering a shaft within a hosel?

Edited by nemoblack, 10 January 2019 - 04:27 PM.


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#15 dbdors

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:08 PM

View PostNessism, on 10 January 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

From some brief searches, there seem to be a lot of research studies on the subject.  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00914037208082114

Do you think they would risk a reputation on snake oil.  I am amazed how many people refute good engineering based on a "gut feel".

I just think I would trust someone with engineering experience and testing over a DIYer working in their garage or basement, and no data.

But I am an engineer.

I'm an engineer too and the lap shear strength testing I did was not "in my garage or basement", it was done using a certified tensile strength testing machine where I work at an aerospace component supplier.  http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry15487028

In a nutshell shafting beads reduced the lap shear strength by 15%.  This was done at a normal temperature, not hot or cold.  

Everyone is free to do what they want but personally I never use shafting beads.  To me the only thing it accomplishes is to increase viscosity and reduce sagging, which could be useful in truth.  In fact, in my experience that Bramptons 20-20 is thin and runny and adding beads may actually help by keep it in place.
You should present your data to Brampton and see what they say?


Woods: Ping G30 10.5 Aldila Rogue Silver 60 Tour S, TEE CBX 4W (16.5) Aldila Rogue Silver 70 S
Hybrids: TEE CBX 3H (20d), 4H (22d), Kuro Kage Silver Hybrid 80 S
Irons: TM 2017 M2, 5-PW, KBS Tour 105 S
Wedges: Mizuno T7 Blue Ion, 50.07, 55.13, 60.10, TT Wedge, S200
Putters: SC Cameron & Crown, 33", SS Counter Core Mid Slim 2.0
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#16 MrFlapjack

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:39 PM

View Postnemoblack, on 10 January 2019 - 04:27 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 09 January 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

Glass shafting beads are .002" in diameter (at least the ones sold by Mitchell).  That's 0.05mm for metric users.  If you think that is going to center your shaft in the hosel, I've got a friend in Nigeria that is looking to talk to you about finances.

Not sure I understand. A typical sheet of copier paper is about 0.003" thick. If you take a sheet of paper and wrap it around a shaft, that'll add 0.006 to the diameter, and almost certainly will not allow a typical shaft to be inserted into most hosels unless the fit was very loose to begin with. 0.002 beads are 2/3rds the thickness, in other words a pretty significant percentage. Why wouldn't a reasonably even distribution of shaft beads, which would add a minimum of 0.004" have some effect of centering a shaft within a hosel?

I'm with you.  It would seem that having .002 on either side of the shaft would be better at keeping a minimum epoxy layer on all surfaces. It may weaken the mix slightly but I would rather do that than have the shaft off center even slightly.  Would really have to mess up mixing or use too many beads to have a failure.
Cobra LTD Pro HZRDUS 75g 6.5 (Synergy Black 70TX tipped 1/2")
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#17 Socrates

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 06:13 PM

View Postnemoblack, on 10 January 2019 - 04:27 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 09 January 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

Glass shafting beads are .002" in diameter (at least the ones sold by Mitchell).  That's 0.05mm for metric users.  If you think that is going to center your shaft in the hosel, I've got a friend in Nigeria that is looking to talk to you about finances.

Not sure I understand. A typical sheet of copier paper is about 0.003" thick. If you take a sheet of paper and wrap it around a shaft, that'll add 0.006 to the diameter, and almost certainly will not allow a typical shaft to be inserted into most hosels unless the fit was very loose to begin with. 0.002 beads are 2/3rds the thickness, in other words a pretty significant percentage. Why wouldn't a reasonably even distribution of shaft beads, which would add a minimum of 0.004" have some effect of centering a shaft within a hosel?
My contention is that if you have a poor fit, use something that is more effective and larger.  I personally will use something like Quik Center which is significantly larger and does a far better job.  One of the major drawbacks with microspheres is that they are very small (and translucent) and people add too much to the epoxy since they can’t see it and still are getting a cocked shaft.

My preference is to use nothing, but I’m not always working from with fresh components and have to deal with others prior mistakes.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc
Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Scotty X7M Dual 38"
MCC Align Midsize

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#18 MrGoobers

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:18 AM

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 10 January 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

From some brief searches, there seem to be a lot of research studies on the subject.  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00914037208082114

Do you think they would risk a reputation on snake oil.  I am amazed how many people refute good engineering based on a "gut feel".

I just think I would trust someone with engineering experience and testing over a DIYer working in their garage or basement, and no data.

But I am an engineer.

I'm an engineer too and the lap shear strength testing I did was not "in my garage or basement", it was done using a certified tensile strength testing machine where I work at an aerospace component supplier.  http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry15487028

In a nutshell shafting beads reduced the lap shear strength by 15%.  This was done at a normal temperature, not hot or cold.  

Everyone is free to do what they want but personally I never use shafting beads.  To me the only thing it accomplishes is to increase viscosity and reduce sagging, which could be useful in truth.  In fact, in my experience that Bramptons 20-20 is thin and runny and adding beads may actually help by keep it in place.
You should present your data to Brampton and see what they say?

I'm glad you're referencing Brampton in particular.  It is their Epoxy and, thus, their recommendation for their beads that convinced me to buy them.  Sounds like I'm not making a disastrous decision either way and at worst got caught up in their $5 upsell strategy.  Still sounds like something I should have in the shop for when I start working with graphite.

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#19 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:34 AM

View PostMrGoobers, on 11 January 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 10 January 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

View Postdbdors, on 10 January 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

From some brief searches, there seem to be a lot of research studies on the subject.  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00914037208082114

Do you think they would risk a reputation on snake oil.  I am amazed how many people refute good engineering based on a "gut feel".

I just think I would trust someone with engineering experience and testing over a DIYer working in their garage or basement, and no data.

But I am an engineer.

I'm an engineer too and the lap shear strength testing I did was not "in my garage or basement", it was done using a certified tensile strength testing machine where I work at an aerospace component supplier.  http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry15487028

In a nutshell shafting beads reduced the lap shear strength by 15%.  This was done at a normal temperature, not hot or cold.  

Everyone is free to do what they want but personally I never use shafting beads.  To me the only thing it accomplishes is to increase viscosity and reduce sagging, which could be useful in truth.  In fact, in my experience that Bramptons 20-20 is thin and runny and adding beads may actually help by keep it in place.
You should present your data to Brampton and see what they say?

I'm glad you're referencing Brampton in particular.  It is their Epoxy and, thus, their recommendation for their beads that convinced me to buy them.  Sounds like I'm not making a disastrous decision either way and at worst got caught up in their $5 upsell strategy.  Still sounds like something I should have in the shop for when I start working with graphite.

If you are using the proper collared ferrules you should not need glass beads for centering.  The collars and ferrules do that.  

If the tips are the problem and seem loose on Taper tip shafts give them all a little trim.  Nip off an 1/8 of an inch on a chop saw or belt sander.  Tighten them right up.

And no...trimming them 1/8 inch will not change flex.
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#20 Stuart G.

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:36 AM

View PostMrGoobers, on 11 January 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

Sounds like I'm not making a disastrous decision either way and at worst got caught up in their $5 upsell strategy.  

Correct - as long as you stick to the recommendation of how much to add.  Adding in too much to the mix is where/when any problems will usually occur.

View PostMrGoobers, on 11 January 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

Still sounds like something I should have in the shop for when I start working with graphite.

Graphite isn't any more needing of the shafting beads than steel.  In fact with a proper tip prep, it's less likely to need it on a graphite shaft.  Composite shaft tips usually start out larger than the spec size due to the finishing and painting process.  So it's both easier and much more likely that you'll be able to bring the tip size down to an extremely good fit with the hosel - despite any variations in the hosel diameter from the manufacturing process.   With steel shaft tips, you're stuck with two separate manufacturing tolerance variations that may or may not match and more likely to have a poor fit  (and only with taper tip shafts do you have a chance to fix the mis-match).

Edited by Stuart G., 11 January 2019 - 10:37 AM.


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#21 Nessism

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 05:40 PM

Had a good talk with one of our material experts from work today, and I asked him specifically about this subject.  First thing he questioned is whether we are talking about hollow spheres (often denoted micro balloons) or solid glass?  I'm pretty sure the stuff Golfworks sells is hollow because it's so light.  Glass particles are much heavier.  On the Bramptons website they make specific reference to "glass oxide granules" which are (presumably) not hollow.  I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.  My expert friend said that the main thing that fillers do is keep the surface apart and allow the proper thickness of epoxy to be present in the joint.  He said that a thick layer of epoxy isn't a problem for the most part but you don't want too tight because the epoxy thickness is too thin to bond effectively.  Anyway, he confirmed that fillers reduce the strength, particularly the hollow type, but that unless too much is used it's not really a problem.

Edit: Checked the SDS on Golfworks website and their "shafting beads" are denoted Spheriglass solid glass spheres so my comment above is incorrect.

Edit 2: I asked my materials expert friend about Gorilla epoxy and he quickly rattled off the name of three companies that supply generic epoxy like that to most of the brand companies like "Gorilla" in the USA.  He said it's pretty much the lowest form of epoxy but it should bond decently enough, but he wasn't enthusiastic about it's use when I asked about cases where the clubs were being stored in a car during summer heat.  In that regard he said that while the temperature will cause epoxy to soften it won't damage the structure of the epoxy permanently, but it could affect the bond strength if the club is stressed at the elevated temperature.  Higher grade epoxies have a higher glass transition phase thus they will survive the higher temperature better compared to these cheaper generic epoxy.

Last thing that was recommended is an elevated temperature cure as the final step in the bonding process.  He said it's fine to allow room temperature cure but some heat will elevate the strength above that which room temperature cure can achieve.  It also greatly speeds up the curing process.  

All this said I still stand behind my testing data showing that the beads reduced strength by 15%.  To my view there better be a reason to use beads, don't just add the filler as a matter of course.

Edited by Nessism, 12 January 2019 - 12:18 PM.

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#22 Nessism

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:19 PM

Edited my post above.  I'm backing off on my vehement hate of "shafting beads" a little...but only a little.
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